Privacy on the Internet

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Peter James - 24 Mar 2008 16:08 GMT

Those of us who value our privacy might like to have a look at the
links I have provided. Especially if your ISP is BT or Virgin and some
others.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_documents/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/mar/06/internet.privacy

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_roundup/

This is something that really needs to be resisted.

Peter

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Kay Robinson - 24 Mar 2008 17:35 GMT

>Those of us who value our privacy might like to have a look at the
>links I have provided. Especially if your ISP is BT or Virgin and some
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Peter

Actually this has been around for a long time. Most of the issues are
really between various providers etc. For the first time British
companies are muscling in on what has for years been mainly a US
strategy. In the end it matters not what info on what pages we browse
is passed to whatever company. Spam mail has been around as long as
email and cookies as long as browsers. It's all pie-in-the-sky in real
terms. Web advertising is based on the remote likelihood of a browser
such as myself clicking on an ad. I NEVER do, but as long as some do,
and as long as some advertisers can be conned into believing that
paying for web ads is profitable, more and more companies will try and
bag the bigger proportion of the market. Most user I know clean
tracking cookies from their computer on a regular basis.

In the real world, this is done big time. Everytime you take out a
library book, rent a DVD, buy groceries and whatever from your local
supermarket, or indeed any retail outlook, details of your purchases
are passed on. Indeed, it's been done ever since Plessey invented the
bar code reader and I remember then the outcry about our privacy being
invaded.

Personally I don't give a fig if some marketing company knows which
baked beans I prefer to buy or knows what sort of web sites I visit.
Unless I'm doing something illegal they can't make any use of it other
than to con some other firm that have useful data.

Kay

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Cheb - 25 Mar 2008 12:01 GMT

>>Those of us who value our privacy might like to have a look at the
>>links I have provided. Especially if your ISP is BT or Virgin and some
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>Unless I'm doing something illegal they can't make any use of it other
>than to con some other firm that have useful data.

Hi Kay

I take all your points but Phorm is a step up IMO and there are
several issues relating to personal privacy that are creating all the
heat and light.

You are correct in saying that supermarkets track what we buy through
'loyalty cards', but those are optional - if you don't like it then
don't use them. With Phorm, as I understand it, information is
gathered on every person regardless of whether you have opted out or
not - the opt-out just relates to whether you get the targetted ads or
not. Also, it is an opt-out system, not an opt-in system like the
loyalty cards etc.

Whereas I might not be too worried about whether someone at Sainbury's
knows which brand of cheese I buy, I would be more concerned if
someone could easily see which web-pages I was reading - eg. which
medical conditions I was researching or what I was saying on 'private'
forums.

Although the information probably wouldn't be used for dodgy purposes
the fact that the data is being stored and made available means that
the possibility is closer. It's just an erosion of privacy that can
only be avoided by the hassle of changing internet provider and unless
it is challenged I think all providers will slowly be drawn it, so I'd
rather it didn't happen at all.

Chris R.

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Kay Robinson - 25 Mar 2008 21:07 GMT

>>>Those of us who value our privacy might like to have a look at the
>>>links I have provided. Especially if your ISP is BT or Virgin and some
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>medical conditions I was researching or what I was saying on 'private'
>forums.

The point is that every single web page you visit IS already logged,
either by M$ or by Google or by Amazon etc. Has been so for quite a
few years. I sometimes take a peek in my junk mail folder and see that
I'm being 'sold' something I saw on a web page I browsed a week or so
ago. Most search engines use this in order to target you, even the
standard cookies that may appear after a visit to any site that
carries ads will tell them which ones you've seen and how many times.

I don't really know what you mean by 'private' forums. Ever since the
WWW was invented nothing on it or connected to it has been private.
It's a public magazine. The nearest you'll get to being private is via
email. and even that can mess up. I already mention library books, so
what books you read have been known to others since they first started
using bar codes, even those medical books and smutty novels :-) No
different to the web really.

They may know your email address and provider, however, in most cases
your personal address and telephone number is not known, unless of
course you've filled a web form with that info oops.

>Although the information probably wouldn't be used for dodgy purposes
>the fact that the data is being stored and made available means that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Chris R.

I'm on pension and disability, getting almost anything requires the
giving of information. The only other way is to be self-employed in a
cash only trade and buy everything with cash. Soon such an option
won't exist, we're moving into a cashless society and we can't turn
back the clock.

I recently watched a tv interview with a professional woman who
considered herself discriminated against because she had to pay more
for her utilities because she paid bills in full by cheque. The dumb
woman failed to understand that she wasn't paying more, just that
people who paid by direct debit got a discount for doing so. She then
went on to say she'd never use DD because she objected to giving the
utility companies her bank details. Silly woman, everytime she writes
a cheque she gives them her bank details.

I've been online since before the internet was invented. I've never
had a computer virus, never been defrauded or swindled. Why? Because I
look before I leap, am not taken in by promises of easy money and
fantastic bargains. Nowadays there's a climate of fear being
deliberately fanned, and there's a good reason for it, not because we
need to fear the world around us, but because there are those that
want to control us. We no longer have real freedoms in this country.
We should be fighting against giving police more powers, about
authorities being able to ride roughshod over us and powerful
lobbyists taking our rights away.

Kay

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(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

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Cheb - 26 Mar 2008 13:59 GMT

>>>>Those of us who value our privacy might like to have a look at the
>>>>links I have provided. Especially if your ISP is BT or Virgin and some
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>either by M$ or by Google or by Amazon etc. Has been so for quite a
>few years.

Can you elaborate?

Amazon logs the pages I visit on their site and Google logs clicks on
their adverts and MS do the same on their site. Also tracking cookies
are used to record whether individual sites have been visited or ads
clicked on. But they don't have access to what I am browsing in
Wikipedia or what I talk about on forums and they don't hold all this
information in a single database with the specific aim of analysing
what I am interested in. But I don't have to allow cookies and I don't
have to click on any ads if I don't want - and all those databases are
held seperately so no one body can see the full picture.

At the moment the only people that routinely filter and monitor ALL
the web activity are the intelligence services. If Phorm is introduced
then it will be the first time a single commercial organisation has
had routine access to that much UK-user's browsing data. If existing
systems did half of what Phorm does then they wouldn't be going to the
expense of installing it but it must give them unprecidented benefits
to justify the cost and upheaval.

>I sometimes take a peek in my junk mail folder and see that
>I'm being 'sold' something I saw on a web page I browsed a week or so
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I don't really know what you mean by 'private' forums. Ever since the
>WWW was invented nothing on it or connected to it has been private.

By private I mean forums to which you have to be a member to
contribute and log in with a password etc. But I "" quoted it because,
as you say, unless the traffic is encrypted it is still visible to
systems like Phorm even if search engines etc can't crawl the forum
posts.

>It's a public magazine. The nearest you'll get to being private is via
>email. and even that can mess up.

Email is massively unsecure - it is transmitted unenrypted. You can
encrypt traffic but I don't know anyone that does it. But then again,
pop3 isn't (yet) monitored by our ISPs ... just by the security
services and if people choose to use webmail systems like GMail.

>I already mention library books, so
>what books you read have been known to others since they first started
>using bar codes, even those medical books and smutty novels :-) No
>different to the web really.

Sorry but its massively different - do libraries sell reading
information routinely to bulk-mail advertisers?

Also, I can't remember the last time (or my family for that matter) I
went to a library but most people use the internet on a daily basis
and sites such as Wikipedia or Google receive huge amounts of traffic
as people casually research everything and anything. I believe we do
far more reading/research now that we ever did before and mainly
because the internet gives us unprecidented access.

>They may know your email address and provider, however, in most cases
>your personal address and telephone number is not known, unless of
>course you've filled a web form with that info oops.

Well, I'm not too worried about that and I am not even really worried
about the adverts - i never click on adverts anyway. But what gets my
hackles up is the feeling that there is no way to avoid a dodgy
salesman looking over my shoulder and writing down everything I do.
They might not know my home address directly but it wouldn't take much
to link the IP being used to my provider's DHCP records and then on to
my account info.

By allowing companies to hold this information in the first place it
makes nefarious use possible .. not certain, but possible. If the
government wanted to store that information I would be fairly annoyed
(especially with their record of privacy) but we know nothing about
how much we can trust this company or its associates. We don't know
where our data will be stored and used ... who knows which unregulated
place will be holding it or analysing it ... Russia, China...?

>>Although the information probably wouldn't be used for dodgy purposes
>>the fact that the data is being stored and made available means that
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>won't exist, we're moving into a cashless society and we can't turn
>back the clock.

Absolutely, but you are missing the point. We all have to provide some
information at some times to do some things. Usually that is to
relatively trusted organisations like government bodies or companies
regulated and monitored by our laws. But I hope you wouldn't hand over
a list of everything you looked at last year and all your personal
data if a chap just phoned you up one day and asked for it. :o)

>I recently watched a tv interview with a professional woman who
>considered herself discriminated against because she had to pay more
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>utility companies her bank details. Silly woman, everytime she writes
>a cheque she gives them her bank details.

There are idiots born every day. Like the people who think they are
safe from online fraud or identity theft just because they don't have
an internet enabled bank account. ;o)

>I've been online since before the internet was invented. I've never
>had a computer virus, never been defrauded or swindled. Why? Because I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>authorities being able to ride roughshod over us and powerful
>lobbyists taking our rights away.

Well, I am with you on the bit about fighting against state control
and monitoring; the loss of privacy and personal freedoms as more and
more things are banned or outlawed on the basis of them wanting to
look after us ... it's already gone way too far towards a nanny state.
But part of this erosion of rights (IMO) is the way government is
happy to allow companies to use information about us for (as yet
unknown) commercial aims.

Chris R. :o)

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