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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / July 2004Ginkgo Biloba
Been a tinnitus sufferer for about 7 months, and usually get 2 to 4 'on' days per week. It's the hissing type. Then recently an anaesthetist friend said she'd been reading something about trials with ginkgo biloba for tinnitus, and had I tried it? No, I said, but I certainly will. Well, early days so far, but I started taking GB tablets, 3 per day, 9 days ago and since then I've had one tinnitus day, and it was very much reduced in intensity. Placebo effect? I don't know, and frankly I don't care! For what it's worth, hope this helps. >Well, early days so far, but I started taking GB tablets, 3 per day, 9 days >ago and since then I've had one tinnitus day, and it was very much reduced >in intensity. Placebo effect? I don't know, and frankly I don't care! I know of a couple of other folks whose T was helped by Ginkgo. Not most folks who try it, but if you're one of the lucky ones, who cares? Susan Ginko is helping my T dramatically >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >I know of a couple of other folks whose T was helped by Ginkgo. Not most folks >who try it, but if you're one of the lucky ones, who cares? According to a large, controlled, prospective trial, the number of people who got better on Ginkgo was the same as the number of people who got better on placebo. I'd have to conclude that tinnitus can get better or worse, but that Ginkgo appears not to be the reason for the change. If there is a person who can turn their tinnitus up or down with ginkgo, and do so at will, I'd like to see their evidence.  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG I dont need evidence and I dont care if it is a placebo, My ears are the best they have been since this crap started, and in the meantime small doses of Ginko are supposedly healthy for the brain and memory...double bonus I say!! Jim Chinnis wrote in message ... >sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA >Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >I dont need evidence and I dont care if it is a placebo, My ears are the >best they have been since this crap started, and in the meantime small doses >of Ginko are supposedly healthy for the brain and memory...double bonus I >say!! This is a much more succinct way of making the point I tried to in my last post. :-) Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Susan There's a lot to be said for good placebo and the price varies widely. Ginkgo placebo is cheap, for example, but Simvistatin placebo it pretty pricey. >There's a lot to be said for good placebo and the price varies widely. >Ginkgo placebo is cheap, for example, but Simvistatin placebo it pretty >pricey. The largest meta study to look at it found that the Placebo Effect is basically a myth, at least the way most folks understand it. Ginkgo is too effective a blood thinner to be used as a placebo. Placebos are supposed to be inactive. And statins cause loss of cognitive ability, not improvement! Susan I tried Ginkgo Biloba before, and it made my T louder! So it really did not work for me. Ginseng also had the same effect on me. > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > And statins cause loss of cognitive ability, not improvement! > Susan I was thinking Ginkgo placebo might be something like dried spinach leaves or maybe poke salad. Can you buy placebo OTC or is it best to make your own? :-) >I was thinking Ginkgo placebo might be something like dried spinach leaves >or maybe poke salad. Can you buy placebo OTC or is it best to make your >own? :-) I think it's best to *grow* your own. ;-) Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >And statins cause loss of cognitive ability, not improvement! Unless they prevent a stroke or heart attack. Or possibly dementia. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >Unless they prevent a stroke or heart attack. Or possibly dementia. Pantethine does that without any toxicity, even to dialysis and hepatitis patients. Cheaper, safer and completely effective. Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Cheaper, safer and completely effective. My point still stands. And pantethine appears to work (not studied as much as statins) for certain types of lipid profiles and not others. I wouldn't say it was "completely effective." But all that's beside the point. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >According to a large, controlled, prospective trial, the number of people who >got better on Ginkgo was the same as the number of people who got better on >placebo. Yes, I know. But perhaps, like many drug studies, some effects aren't apparent until they hit the street and are used by a much larger pool of people. The study you cite certainly puts GB way down my list of things to try for likely benefit, but I wouldn't rule it out. >I'd have to conclude that tinnitus can get better or worse, but that Ginkgo >appears not to be the reason for the change. If there is a person who can >turn >their tinnitus up or down with ginkgo, and do so at will, I'd like to see >their evidence. I mean this in the nicest way, but why would they bother trying to convince you, if they're not peddling it? Maybe their own relief, anecdotal though it may be, is all that matters here. Susan you can thank the ginko for my quick resp0nse..it makes my mind sharp! lol >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Susan >you can thank the ginko for my quick resp0nse..it makes my mind sharp! lol Ah, you're definitely not the only one here to have benefited in that way from ginkgo. I know of one other poster who's used it with the same effect. Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >>I'd have to conclude that tinnitus can get better or worse, but that Ginkgo >>appears not to be the reason for the change. If there is a person who can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >you, if they're not peddling it? Maybe their own relief, anecdotal though it >may be, is all that matters here. I think they could save the $ and have the relief anyway. Gingko is a huge, huge profit-maker for what i've come to see as unscrupulous pushers. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >I think they could save the $ and have the relief anyway. But they didn't. If they are getting relief associated with its use, that's relief, no matter why it's happening, at not a great expense. >Gingko is a huge, huge profit-maker for what i've come to see as unscrupulous >pushers. I understand. Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >>I think they could save the $ and have the relief anyway. > >But they didn't. If they are getting relief associated with its use, that's >relief, no matter why it's happening, at not a great expense. The point is that--I think--you can separate their improvement from the taking of the ginkgo. That's what the published evidence comes down to. Maybe they sould be looking somewhere else, rather than at the ginkgo. I don't question for a moment that the relief is the important thing--to them. And I am sincerely happy for them! But in the newsgroup and larger world, the report that ginkgo works flies in the face of a lot of research. And it helps to line the pockets of a lot of predatory jerks. Incidentally, there is a very recent Cochrane Review of ginkgo and tinnitus. The Cochrane Review is a highly regarded and impartial group that reviews medical topics that are in dispute, finding all the evidence available and pulling it together. The recent review concluded that the evidence supported a lack of effect of ginkgo on tinnitus. Nevertheless, ginkgo is probably where most tinnitus-related dollars go, and will continue to go. There is a hugely-rewarded and mostly uncontrolled herbal supplements industry in the US and some other countries that appears not to mind making claims for their products that fly in the face of the evidence. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Susan In any case, I wonder how anyone with purely subjective symptoms could possibly produce the evidence that Jim Chinnis would like to see (or should he be saying "hear"?) "steve marchant" <steve.c.marchant@btopenworld.com> wrote in part: >In any case, I wonder how anyone with purely subjective symptoms could >possibly produce the evidence that Jim Chinnis would like to see (or should >he be saying "hear"?) Oh, it's very simple. As an example: 1. Use a visual analog scale to just rate your tinnitus loudness each day at the same time. (This will give a rough picture of relative loudness and will allow meaningful comparisons if you do it long enough.) 2. Take the ginkgo for a day, a week, a month, a year, whatever you think is the period over which it has an effect. 3. Then stop the ginkgo for an equally long period. 4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 for as long as you can manage. 5. Send me your data. This isn't exactly a publishable study. There's one subject; there's no blinding at all. But it's what i meant. So often when someone tells me that "X" works for them, the story goes like this: "Every time i take X my T gets quieter after a while. And every time I stop taking X my T gets louder after a while. Therefore X works." See if you can spot the error. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu (Jim Chinnis) wrote in part: >"steve marchant" <steve.c.marchant@btopenworld.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >See if you can spot the error. A visual analog scale is just one where you rate the loudness by a relative number. You might use 1 for the quietest your T has been and 10 for the loudest it's been, for instance. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG "Jim Chinnis" <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu> wrote in message > Oh, it's very simple. > As an example: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG tch,tch. >In any case, I wonder how anyone with purely subjective symptoms could >possibly produce the evidence that Jim Chinnis would like to see (or should >he be saying "hear"?) One person couldn't, perhaps, but a large study asking folks about effects on subjective symptoms could. All studies of pain relief require reporting on subjective sx. Susan
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