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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / June 2004

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Acoustic Desensitization Protocol (ADP)

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Stephen Nagler - 21 Apr 2004 02:00 GMT
There is an Australian company called Neuromonics that might really be
on to something.  The website is www.neuromonics.com.au 

The protocol they are testing is not masking.  And it is not TRT.  The
differences are far from subtle, but you have to know what to look
for.

Basically, ADP revolves around the long-term effects of *purposely
masking and unmasking* tinnitus in a controlled prescribed fashion for
around two hours a day over a period of several months.  Music was
chosen as the medium of delivery because given that there would be
masking and unmasking (i.e., volume changes), music was felt to be
less obtrusive and noxious than some sort of broad band sound like
that used in traditional masking or in TRT (both reasonably
well-tolerated when there is *no* change in volume).  Additionally,
the music carries with it a bonus: since patients can choose from
between half-a-dozen or so genres of music, they can find one to their
liking - one that they indeed find relaxing.

In ADP before the prescribed music is delivered via a "walkman-like"
device to the patient, it is spectrally altered to compensate for the
characteristics of the patient's audiogram. The idea is to
intermittently stimulate the areas of the brain corresponding to any
cochlear hair cell damage that might be present.  But with traditional
masking the volume limit is dictated by the sound tolerance levels
corresponding to the *healthy* hair cells.  Davis et al wanted to be
sure to stimulate those areas precluded from their share of
stimulation by previous methodology.  So the music is altered based on
each patient's individual audiogram; those frequencies where there is
a decreased hearing threshold are thereby presented to the patient
more loudly.  In essence, the music is heard as it was meant to be
heard by a person with no hearing loss. Then, when the overall volume
level is increased to the proper level in accordance with the
protocol, the volume and pitch variations within the chosen musical
piece serve to effectively mask and unmask *and* intermittently
stimulate those heretofore neglected regions of the brain.

What is presently available to the Australian public (and what
apparently will become available elsewhere later this year or next) is
the first generation of the technology.  I believe that further
developments in the technology will be impressive.

In fact, I believe that ADP may well represent a quantum leap in the
field of tinnitus treatment.  Let me explain.

Please remember first of all that while the Curtin University study
(discussed on the wedbsite) was run by Dr. Davis, the Macquarie
University clinical trial was double-blinded and done totally
independently.  The Neuromonics people were not involved
except to do the spectral alteration of the music.  Furthermore, you
should know that an independent multi-center international blinded
trial is in the works.  In other words, these folks are not afraid to
open things up for all to evaluate and come to their own conclusions.

Next, the questionnaires used pre-treatment and post-treatment
included among others the "Tinnitus Reaction Questionnaire" (Wilson,
Henry, et al), which is clearly one of the internationally accepted
and respected tinnitus measures.  The TRT studies to date, in
contrast, use questionnaires specifically designed by the TRT folks to
measure that which TRT is designed to do. (By the way, don't forget
that I'm a strong believer in TRT, but that doesn't mean that the
research is beyond criticism.)

So, according to the studies quoted on the Neuromonics website,
there's a reduction in disturbance from tinnitus as measured on the
TRQ in the ADP group that seems to be greater than that experienced by
either the counseling/education + white noise group or the
counseling/education alone group.  Well, that's early data.  It's
impressive, but still nothing that I would call "quantum."

Here's what makes ADP (if the data hold up) a "quantum" improvement
(in my opinion):

1.  ADP is technology-driven rather than counseling-driven.  So even
though there is some degree of instruction involved in the protocol,
it is *by far* easier to distribute than any of the counseling-driven
methodologies (like cognitive therapy or TRT).  And moreover it should
eventually become much cheaper as the technology improves.

BUT - what clinched it for me .

2.  The data thus far seem to indicate that ADP results in a decrease
in minimum masking level of the tinnitus - see:  www.tinyurl.com/3dooy

Recall, for instance, what TRT does:  it facilitates habituation and
in so doing decreases tinnitus loudness as it is perceived, but it
does not do anything to the tinnitus signal (i.e., tinnitus loudness
in dB on a tinnitus match and minimal masking levels are unchanged
after TRT).  But ADP seems to *decrease* minimum masking levels!  And
to my way of thinking that means that by intermittently stimulating
parts of the brain previously inaccessible, over time ADP attenuates
the tinnitus signal itself!  As far as I know, no tinnitus treatment
to date can lay claim to impacting the signal in the long term - only
its perception.  And to me, if the multi-center study confirms what
the Australian studies demonstrate, *that* is absolutely HUGE.

So .

Time will tell, but at least thus far I am quite hopeful.

Sorry for rambling. But I really think that ADP deserves a very close
look

smn
Peter Larsen - 21 Apr 2004 05:48 GMT
> In ADP before the prescribed music is delivered via a
> "walkman-like" device to the patient, it is spectrally
> altered to compensate for the characteristics of the
> patient's audiogram.

Faulty logic.

> The idea is to intermittently stimulate the areas
> of the brain corresponding to any cochlear hair cell
> damage that might be present.

Understood.

> But with traditional masking the volume limit is dictated
> by the sound tolerance levels corresponding to the *healthy*
> hair cells.

A partially destroyed hair cell does not tolerate louder sounds just
because it transmits the sensations poorly.

> So the music is altered based on each patient's individual
> audiogram; those frequencies where there is a decreased hearing
> threshold are thereby presented to the patient more loudly.

Broken logic: static frequency response change does not constitute A
valid compensation of a threshold shift.

> In essence, the music is heard as it was meant to be
> heard by a person with no hearing loss.

Therefore that claim is logically FALSE, in the meaning "not valid".

> Then, when the overall volume level is increased to the
> proper level in accordance with the protocol, the volume
> and pitch variations within the chosen musical
> piece serve to effectively mask and unmask *and* intermittently
> stimulate those heretofore neglected regions of the brain.

I agree that going to acoustic concerts, i. e. at the sound level found
at a classical chamber music event, it beneficial, even though - or
because - the applause is likely to be "unsafe" and cause a moderate
increase in perceived tinnitus for moderate time.

> What is presently available to the Australian public
> (and what apparently will become available elsewhere
> later this year or next) is the first generation of
> the technology.  I believe that further
> developments in the technology will be impressive.

Basically what it corresponds to is to go to a concert using a hearing
aid, the general comment of hearing aid users I know of is that going to
a concert without a hearing aid sounds vastly cleaner and better. So
there.

> In fact, I believe that ADP may well represent a
> quantum leap in the field of tinnitus treatment.

No it is not, logic is broken.

> Let me explain.

Indeed.

> Please remember first of all that while the Curtin
> University study (discussed on the wedbsite) was run
> by Dr. Davis, the Macquarie University clinical trial
> was double-blinded and done totally independently.

I will remember that.

>  The Neuromonics people were not involved
> except to do the spectral alteration of the music.

OK, explain this: what was tested? - did the test group get NO music or
did they get natural music?

> Furthermore, you should know that an independent
> multi-center international blinded trial is in the works.
> In other words, these folks are not afraid to
> open things up for all to evaluate and come to their
> own conclusions.

OK, I'll send them a CC of this.

> Next, the questionnaires used pre-treatment and
> post-treatment included among others the "Tinnitus
> Reaction Questionnaire" (Wilson, Henry, et al), which
> is clearly one of the internationally accepted
> and respected tinnitus measures.

Aha. I don't know it.

> The TRT studies to date, in contrast, use questionnaires
> specifically designed by the TRT folks to measure that
> which TRT is designed to do. (By the way, don't forget
> that I'm a strong believer in TRT, but that doesn't mean
> that the research is beyond criticism.)

Explain then WHY my general critique of two other detinnitizing concepts
that are based on supplying elevated treble sounds does not apply to
this.

> So, according to the studies quoted on the Neuromonics website,
> there's a reduction in disturbance from tinnitus as measured on the
> TRQ in the ADP group that seems to be greater than that experienced by
> either the counseling/education + white noise group or the
> counseling/education alone group.  Well, that's early data.  It's
> impressive, but still nothing that I would call "quantum."

OK, the test is not about music or treble boosted music, they didn't
bother to test that. Kings new clothes ...

> Here's what makes ADP (if the data hold up) a "quantum" improvement
> (in my opinion):

> 1.  ADP is technology-driven rather than counseling-driven.

Aha.

> So even though there is some degree of instruction involved in
> the protocol, it is *by far* easier to distribute

First fix the sufferers attitude. Doing that is what prevents suicide,
and the risk fo death by suicide is increased for tinnitus sufferers.

> than any of the counseling-driven methodologies (like cognitive
> therapy or TRT).  And moreover it should
> eventually become much cheaper as the technology improves.

Next prevent tinnitus by preventing hearing damage. Is this too simple a
concept?

> ... But ADP seems to *decrease* minimum masking levels!

Mechanism of pushing back to pre-recovery explained already in
detinnitizer threads.

> its perception.  And to me, if the multi-center study confirms what
> the Australian studies demonstrate, *that* is absolutely HUGE.

No, it proves that it is faulty and causes hearing damage. The very
concept that damaged ears tolerater louder sounds than undamaged ears is
logically false.

> Sorry for rambling. But I really think that ADP deserves
> a very close look

I fail to understand how it could be asserted that they are well
dressed. Read up on your H.C. Andersen if you don't understand the
comment that is made. I may be wrong, I don't want it said that I am
unfair, they get a CC to the only email address supplied on their
website.

The primary qualities of it is said to be that it is "novel" and that it
is patented". Anything that needs to claim being patented as one of the
first qualities has A problem: patenting only implies that it looked new
to the patent authoritity, it is not any indication of quality.

> smn

  Kind regards

  Peter Larsen

Signature

    *******************************************
    * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
    *******************************************

Stephen Nagler - 21 Apr 2004 08:04 GMT
Peter -

What I have written above is what I have gleaned from reading the
Neuromonics website and from reading Dr. Davis's papers.

And - like I said - I feel that ADP bears watching.

I respect your right to disagree with any of the points I have raised.

smn
Stephen Nagler - 21 Apr 2004 12:25 GMT
>What I have written above is what I have gleaned from reading the
>Neuromonics website and from reading Dr. Davis's papers.

................

I should add that I've also met Dr. Davis on three occasions and have
been impressed with his enthusiasm and integrity.

Should be interesting to see the results of further blinded clinical
studies over the next year or two.

smn
Oregon7 - 21 Apr 2004 15:52 GMT
I am intrigued by the idea of using music to stimulate areas of the brain that
are not stimulated by a broad band signal generating device such as used in TRT
developed by Jastreboff.

I believe Rich Tyler has a project using music as a stimulant to induce
tinnitus habituation, too, and I wonder if they are connected.

I would appreciate any thoughts as to how music enters the brain differently
than noise that you may have.  I have a gut instinct as to how this may be,
based on my own reactions to noise versus my favorite celtic music.  The music
induces an emotional well being for me, makes me feel more energetic and
cheerful, and instantly provides me with a more positive outlook on life in
general.

Why this is, I am not absolutely sure that I can grasp it on a bio chemical
level:  I feel I can on a soul-spiritual level!

But, I also know, that when my sons were into rap 'music' the opposite effect
immediately took place and I became rather surly!  Even rude!  

I am highly interested in this method and any other new method that would help
tinnitus sufferers improve their situation.  New methods are sorely needed,
despite the good results with TRT that I have found for 7 years.

Like I have said many times, it is the 15-17 percent who do not do well that
worry me and worry me.............

I will be happy to look into this. Thanks for bringing it here and I hope it
will pop up in other tinnitus circles as well.

Marsha Johnson, MS
Portland, Oregon
Stephen Nagler - 21 Apr 2004 16:43 GMT


>I am highly interested in this method and any other new method that would help
>tinnitus sufferers improve their situation.  New methods are sorely needed,
>despite the good results with TRT that I have found for 7 years.
>
>Like I have said many times, it is the 15-17 percent who do not do well that
>worry me and worry me.............

..................

Well, I think we need to see the results of further studies on ADP.

But to my way of thinking, **if** ADP is found to truly do what the
preliminary studies seem to suggest it can do, why bother with TRT at
all?

Like I said, we need to see more data, but I confess that I find it
somewhat refreshing to see the Neuromonics folks *themselves* pushing
for independent multi-center *controlled blinded* studies whereas the
TRT folk really have never done that.  In my heart of hearts I have
always felt a little uncomfortable in this regard as a proponent of
TRT, and I bet you have as well.

smn
Greg - 25 Apr 2004 12:46 GMT
Stephen Nagler <nagler@tinn.com> wrote in message

> Well, I think we need to see the results of further studies on ADP.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> smn

Dr. Nagler,

I remember that you stated in another message that Neuromonics were
working on perfecting the devices used in ADP. Could you give some
more information on these improvements? Do you think the develpment of
ADP is still in an early stage and that -considering the price tag
attached- it would be better to wait a little bit longer?

Furthermore, if I might ask, are you considering using ADP for your
own tinnitus?

Greg
Marktvalu - 24 Apr 2004 01:59 GMT
What a great thread.

This is what ast is all about.

Thank your all for your great posts.

 - jean
Greg - 10 May 2004 09:18 GMT
Wouldn't every hearing aid be damaging for the ear if what you're
saying is correct? Hearing aids amplify sound, so people with severe
hearing loss using a hearing aid would constantly be damaging their
hearing...

> > In ADP before the prescribed music is delivered via a
> > "walkman-like" device to the patient, it is spectrally
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Therefore that claim is logically FALSE, in the meaning "not valid".

(...)

> No, it proves that it is faulty and causes hearing damage. The very
> concept that damaged ears tolerater louder sounds than undamaged ears is
> logically false.

(...)

>    Kind regards
>
>    Peter Larsen
ENTconsult - 10 May 2004 17:06 GMT
Wouldn't every hearing aid be damaging for the ear if what you're
saying is correct? Hearing aids amplify sound, so people with severe
hearing loss using a hearing aid would constantly be damaging their
hearing..

No, it is the opposite of what you say.
The ear is designed to hear, the muscle is designed to lift, the eye is
designed to see, etc.
It is when the ear doesn't hear that the connections "weaken", just like the
eye that isn't used in strabismus and the muscle that isn't used.

Yes, by anecdote, she got a hearing aid and a year later her hearing had
decreased but that was her condition and not the aid.
You help the poor eye with corrective lenses.
Today we put the cochlear implant in in the very young 3 year old to improve
the entire hearing system esp word cognition.
In summary, the hearing aid helps.
Murray Grossan, M.D.
http://www.ent-consult.com
Oregon7 - 11 May 2004 05:26 GMT
I am not sure I agree here.  Poorly fit hearing can clearly damage the system
and cause further hearing loss.  This is a huge issue with infants and children
with disabilities who are not able to provide good feedback about how loud
their hearing aids are...........

The area to watch are the frequencies between 3 and 6 kilohertz.  If the noise
notch there appears to be accelerating, then maybe there is a problem.  

Of course, you are right, too, in that the damaged ear just continues to
decline over time.  I saw a fascinating project from a fellow from NY area on
free radicals and their influence on cell survival.  It was quite an insight
into how the continuing damage occurs.....

Ok.

Night.

Marsha
Greg - 11 May 2004 18:37 GMT
> Wouldn't every hearing aid be damaging for the ear if what you're
> saying is correct? Hearing aids amplify sound, so people with severe
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Murray Grossan, M.D.
> http://www.ent-consult.com

So you would agree that ADP is not damaging for the ear?
Steve Ostler - 21 Apr 2004 16:40 GMT
> In ADP before the prescribed music is delivered via a "walkman-like"
> device to the patient, it is spectrally altered to compensate for the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> more loudly.  In essence, the music is heard as it was meant to be
> heard by a person with no hearing loss.

This appears to incorporate the same principle I first tried to suppress my
own tinnitus, namely the wearing of a small amplifier+earpieces which
boosted sound only in the frequency band corresponding to the tinnitus (and
corresponding auditory response 'notch').

This modified little ?10 amplifier was very successful. It effectively
replaced the tinnitus 'noise' with information-bearing sound - which was
favoured by the brain, making the underlying tinnitus virtually inaudible.
This benign effect also continued for some time after taking the device off.

Am I right in thinking this effect is also used by hearing aids when
prescribed to help with tinnitus ?

Steve O
Stephen Nagler - 21 Apr 2004 16:46 GMT
>This modified little £10 amplifier was very successful. It effectively
>replaced the tinnitus 'noise' with information-bearing sound - which was
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Am I right in thinking this effect is also used by hearing aids when
>prescribed to help with tinnitus ?

.............

As I understand it, Steve, the effect that the Neuromonics folks are
looking for is a *long term* effect - not quite what you describe
above as an effect that "continued for some time after taking the
device off."

smn
Jim Chinnis - 21 Apr 2004 17:24 GMT
Stephen Nagler <nagler@tinn.com> wrote in part:

>>This modified little £10 amplifier was very successful. It effectively
>>replaced the tinnitus 'noise' with information-bearing sound - which was
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>above as an effect that "continued for some time after taking the
>device off."

I think that the ADP or some other "sound-enrichment" ideas will prove to be
very successful for a lot of those with tinnitus.

I think tinnitus often involves "plastic" changes in the way sound is
interpreted and perceived. The missing hair cells cause a change higher up.

I suspect that most tinnitus patients have missing hair cells interspersed
with viable ones in regions of measurable and unmeasurable hearing loss.
Disproportionately stimulating the viable hair cells in those areas could
certainly could (would be expected to) cause changes above and could reverse
the changes that cause tinnitus to be perceived.

I think the issue for some time has been to find a way to stimulate the
remaining hair cells sufficiently. Sound that has a frequency right at the
characteristic frequency of a patch of dead hair cells still stimulates
adjoining ones, but less intensely.

There's a lot of fuzziness here--certainly in my thinking--but i'm very
optimistic that a way will be found to reshape the neural pathways involved in
tinnitus with nothing more than sound.

Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Stephen Nagler - 21 Apr 2004 17:44 GMT
>There's a lot of fuzziness here--certainly in my thinking--but i'm very
>optimistic that a way will be found to reshape the neural pathways involved in
>tinnitus with nothing more than sound.

..............

Hopefully someday that will be possible.  Certainly the element of the
"sound therapy + counseling" protocols that is more variable and
restrictive is the counseling.

But sometimes the counseling is absolutely crucial - especially in
terms of the *impact* of the tinnitus upon the tinnitus sufferer.

We'll just have to see how it all shakes out.

smn
Jim Chinnis - 21 Apr 2004 20:37 GMT
Stephen Nagler <nagler@tinn.com> wrote in part:

>>There's a lot of fuzziness here--certainly in my thinking--but i'm very
>>optimistic that a way will be found to reshape the neural pathways involved in
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>We'll just have to see how it all shakes out.

I didn't mean to knock the counseling aspect of therapies. I was just saying
that sound exposure can possibly do what so many people think will be doable
only with new drugs, surgery, magnetic pulses to the cortex, etc.

And, yeah, we do have to wait to see what happens.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Greg - 04 May 2004 14:30 GMT
So,you would expect that it is possible that the re-organisation of
neuronal pathways, can be un-done by stimulating neuronal pathways
wich are starved of noise because their corresponding hair cells are
damaged. It could certainly explain why in some cases wearing a
hearing aid helps in alleviating tinnitus.

Perhaps one could even go so far to say that the stimulation of the
auditory cortex, as in the 'De Ridder-method' is just another way of
doing the same thing: Stimulating certain parts of the auditory brain
that go singing around because they don't receive any sound from the
outside.

> I didn't mean to knock the counseling aspect of therapies. I was just saying
> that sound exposure can possibly do what so many people think will be doable
> only with new drugs, surgery, magnetic pulses to the cortex, etc.
francispoon - 05 May 2004 08:56 GMT
jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu (Jim Chinnis) wrote in message
snipped...
> I didn't mean to knock the counseling aspect of therapies. I was just saying
> that sound exposure can possibly do what so many people think will be doable
> only with new drugs, surgery, magnetic pulses to the cortex, etc.

I am *beginning* to believe in treating t with sound exposure because
of a recent experience.

Days ago I had a conversation with a friend of mine while my T was
quite intrusive.  But his voice over the mobile phone was even more
so.  After the conversation, my T was practically reduced to a rather
tolerable level for a long time.

My ENT doctor in China is still stubborn clinging to his belief that
an ultimate intravenous injection could knock out T almost totally.

FP



> And, yeah, we do have to wait to see what happens.
Steve Ostler - 21 Apr 2004 22:23 GMT
> As I understand it, Steve, the effect that the Neuromonics folks are
> looking for is a *long term* effect - not quite what you describe
> above as an effect that "continued for some time after taking the
> device off."
>
> smn

Correct me if I'm wrong but I understood that 'residual inhibition' can
vary enormously in duration between different individuals. Now it's unclear
to me whether it is actually residual inhibition which lies at the heart of
ADP but the effects could well be related.
IMO sound therapy for tinnitus is definitely worth exploring.

Yours in hope,

Steve O
Stephen Nagler - 21 Apr 2004 22:41 GMT
>Correct me if I'm wrong but I understood that 'residual inhibition' can
>vary enormously in duration between different individuals. Now it's unclear
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Steve O

................

From what I can gather from the website, reading the papers, and
speaking with Dr. Davis, I do not think we are dealing with residual
inhibition, but rather a habituation-type phenomenon combined
(hopefully) with attenuation of the tinnitus signal.

In residual inbition, during the period of R.I. the tinnitus cannot be
found even in purposely sought.  I don't get the feeling that's what
ADP is all about.

Likewise in hope.

smn
William Nunn - 24 Apr 2004 14:17 GMT
Appears to be sound science, no pun intended. I heard that somthing was in
the works in Australia for some time. Perhaps this is the best way yet, to
alter the plasticity of the CNS.
William Nunn - 25 Apr 2004 02:42 GMT
the infection has been removed, the soul of the "machine" has been improved
olga - 11 Jun 2004 07:58 GMT
I am considering using this product in Australia. Does anyone know whether
the tinnitus and hearing loss associated with meunieres will be likely to
respond to the adp protocol?
Jim Chinnis - 11 Jun 2004 23:43 GMT
"olga" <abc@nospam.com> wrote in part:

>I am considering using this product in Australia. Does anyone know whether
>the tinnitus and hearing loss associated with meunieres will be likely to
>respond to the adp protocol?

I know no reason why tinnitus from Meniere's would not respond (if other
tinnitus does). Hearing loss should not be improved, however.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Elly Byrne - 12 Jun 2004 21:07 GMT
>"olga" <abc@nospam.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I know no reason why tinnitus from Meniere's would not respond (if other
>tinnitus does). Hearing loss should not be improved, however.

Hearing loss is not the same as hearing damage.
It may very well improve.

Olga, I am in Australia also.
elly at eebee.net

Tinnitus is a pain in the neck
Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
http://meniere.eebee.net/

For email: elly at eebee.cjb.net
Jim Chinnis - 13 Jun 2004 03:20 GMT
Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.cjb.net.noway> wrote in part:

>>"olga" <abc@nospam.com> wrote in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Hearing loss is not the same as hearing damage.
>It may very well improve.

Hearing loss in Meniere's tends to occur at times of attacks. After each
attack it tends to recover partly, but only partly. The continuing attacks
tend to cause greater and greater hearing loss over time.

Are you saying that the Acoustic Desensitization Protocol can restore hearing
in those with Meniere's? That seems inconceivable to me. Do you have any data
to support your view?
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Elly Byrne - 14 Jun 2004 05:54 GMT
Jim, you and I have been around a.s.t for over 10 years. During that
time you must have seen many reports by people who stated that their
hearing loss had improved.

There probably is no published data of that fact because appropriate
protocols have never been tried - and certainly have never been
published.
The closest we can come to it is a Swedish study, but they could not
measure hearing loss as it was outside their discipline.
They did however manage to reduce Meniere's symptoms in their
patients. A graph of this can be seen at
http://www.yts.se/english/treatment_outcome.htm
And when Meniere's symptoms are reduced, the hearing loss improves.

Elly.

>Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.cjb.net.noway> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>in those with Meniere's? That seems inconceivable to me. Do you have any data
>to support your view?

Tinnitus is a pain in the neck
Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
http://meniere.eebee.net/

For email: elly at eebee.cjb.net
Jim Chinnis - 14 Jun 2004 19:11 GMT
Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.cjb.net.noway> wrote in part:

>Jim, you and I have been around a.s.t for over 10 years. During that
>time you must have seen many reports by people who stated that their
>hearing loss had improved.

Hearing loss in Meniere's *fluctuates*! That's the nature of the disease. The
question I asked was how you could claim that the ADP treatment reduces
hearing loss in Meniere's. Do you have any data at all about ADP used on
Meniere's?

>There probably is no published data of that fact because appropriate
>protocols have never been tried - and certainly have never been
>published.
>The closest we can come to it is a Swedish study, but they could not
>measure hearing loss as it was outside their discipline.

So you have no data at all despite making such a startling claim.

>They did however manage to reduce Meniere's symptoms in their
>patients. A graph of this can be seen at
>http://www.yts.se/english/treatment_outcome.htm

The symptoms of Meniere's tend to be very severe when a patient undergoes any
treatment. At any particular time later, the chances are very good that he
will be better because of the waxing and waning nature of the disease!

>And when Meniere's symptoms are reduced, the hearing loss improves.

Hearing loss tends to bounce back part way right after an attack, but it does
not climb back up even when vertigo attacks and active disease stops!

I think you have no basis whatsoever for claiming that ADP helps the hearing
loss from Meniere's. If it does, it is the first thing ever shown to do so and
it is big news!
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Elly Byrne - 15 Jun 2004 21:13 GMT
>Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.cjb.net.noway> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Hearing loss in Meniere's *fluctuates*! That's the nature of the disease.

Because nothing is ever done to undo the existing muscular tension.

>>There probably is no published data of that fact because appropriate
>>protocols have never been tried - and certainly have never been
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>I think you have no basis whatsoever for claiming that ADP helps the hearing
>loss from Meniere's.

I had not specifically stated that. It was a general comment about
hearing loss.  In its context you would see that.

In the name of research and for our mutual curiosity..........
Have you ever had your neck and shoulders seen to about possible
muscular tension?
Even if you don't feel it, it will be there.

Don't knock it till you've tried it.

Tinnitus is a pain in the neck
Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
http://meniere.eebee.net/

For email: elly at eebee.cjb.net
ENTconsult - 16 Jun 2004 02:40 GMT
I agree with Elly's proposition.  Clearing a cervical problem can improve ear
symptoms.
the research here is difficult becasue people call it Meniere's when it may be
something entirely different.
Can cervical correction bring back a deaf ear? no.
Can cervial correction help reduce ear symptoms secondary to "pain stimulation
" from the neck? Yes

Have I personally improved someone's hearing by physiotherapy? No
Have I personall improved someone's tinnitus and dizzyness with physciotherapy
? Yes.
Have I personally improved someone's hearing /tinnitus  by anti inflammatory
medications? Yes
I see more of the physical trauma patients including scuba diving and it is not
unusual to restore hearing and innitus in these patietns.

Murray Grossan, M.D.
http://www.ent-consult.com
Jim Chinnis - 16 Jun 2004 03:12 GMT
entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in part:

>I agree with Elly's proposition.  Clearing a cervical problem can improve ear
>symptoms.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Murray Grossan, M.D.
>http://www.ent-consult.com

Well, I agree with the proposition that clearing a cervical problem can (as in
"sometimes") improve ear symptoms. Frankly, there should be no question re
that at all!

Olga asked (with reference to the Acoustic Desensitization Protocol): "I am
considering using this product in Australia. Does anyone know whether
the tinnitus and hearing loss associated with meunieres will be likely to
respond to the adp protocol?"

I replied, "I know no reason why tinnitus from Meniere's would not respond (if
other tinnitus does). Hearing loss should not be improved, however."

And Elly replied to my post with a contradictory view: "Hearing loss is not
the same as hearing damage.
It may very well improve."

I don't believe that ADP has anything to do with cervical problems, Dr.
Grossan. Neither do I believe it can reverse hearing loss in Meniere's.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

olga - 30 Jun 2004 05:11 GMT
Olga here
I have decided to go with the Neuromonics product and am beinging fitted
July, so will keep you posted.
Some comments on the messages so far (remember I am not in the medical
profession!)
My history is that I started with tinnitus 3 years ago and this developed
into meunieres after 18 months. Within 3 months of onset I had a number of
Tumarkin Crisis attacks and was not able to leave the house for a month. I
have had tests for pressure etc and have all the symptoms of true
meunieres.
My hearing fluctuates a lot, and when at its worst this coincides with
louder tinnitus, severe dizziness and with pressure in my ear. I control
this reasonably with a NO salt diet and diuretics but the tinnitus is on a
constant upward path and gets louder with each attack.
Talking to people a lot say they have meunieres when in fact they seem to
mostly actually have bad dizzy spells, so I am a little sceptical of many
supposed 'cures'.
I tried chiropractic when I was severe, the person came highly recommended
and was from a person who claimed that their meunieres was fixed by this
chiropractor. I would have to say that I did feel better after each visit,
but the effects lasted no more than 30 mins to 1 hour and I gave up after
5 or 6 visits.
What I am hoping for from the ADP from Neuromonics is that I will cope
better with the tinnitus. I am not expecting any change to my fluctuating
hearing.
The best for meunieres for me is a very strict no salt diet, diurectics
when there is still pressure in my ear and lots of quiet time doing things
like walking and (when not dizzy!) golf.
ENTconsult - 14 Jun 2004 23:51 GMT
In Menier's a useful analogy is yor finger pressing on the upper lid. As long
as that pressure is there there vision is decreaed. If you reduce th epressure
- take the finger away - the vision / hearing MAY return depeding on how much
damage was done by the pressure.
The more recent the onset of hearing loss the better the results. The more the
lower tones are affected vs the upper tones, the better the results.
Murray Grossan, M.D.
http://www.ent-consult.com
Elly Byrne - 14 Jun 2004 06:13 GMT
Here is an extraordinary story of a Meniere's patient.
The treament is even more extraordinary.
http://www.upcspine.com/tech1.htm
Down near the bottom of the page.

Tinnitus is a pain in the neck
Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
http://meniere.eebee.net/

For email: elly at eebee.cjb.net

>Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.cjb.net.noway> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>in those with Meniere's? That seems inconceivable to me. Do you have any data
>to support your view?

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