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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / May 2004Help with Ulta Quiet masking device
First, let me get the disclaimers out of the way - I am not associated with the manufacturer of the Ultra Quiet in any way whatsoever. I've had a bilateral tinnitus for about 6 months. It's a constant intrusive (sometimes VERY intrusive) ~6 KHz tone. My audiogram shows a high-frequency loss that rolls off at 8 KHz to a 60 db loss in the left ear and 70 db loss in the right. A follow up diagnotic ABR rules out acoustic neuroma. It seems to be a typical ideopathic tinnitus. And some days, it's unbearable - in fact, this morning (Easter Sunday), I heard it over the church organ with the choir and congregation (200+) singing the Alleluia Chorus at full volume. That's the history. Now for the "opportunity". I have been offered a free trial period of the Ultra Quiet. I met these folks at the American Academy of Audiology convention 2 weeks ago, because I was exhibiting at my company's booth (in an unrelated field in audiology). They made the offer because I'm going to see a tinnitus guru, with whom they have had a problem getting an appointment. I agreed to tell him what I think of their device. This is a device that plays CD audio in the high sonic range through a piezo-electric bone conductor (they say that it's ultrasonic, but the stimulus is in the 10 KHz - 20 KHz range). They state that there is some evidence to suggest residual inhibition of tinnitus after a number of 1/2 hour sessions, due to some plastic changes in the brain. Here is a website that offers some explanation: http://www.people.vcu.edu/~lenhardt/Pages/UltraQuiet.html Here are my questions: 1) Does anybody have any relevant experience with this device? (not just anecdotes or speculation please) 2) I'm trying to design some metrics whereby I can conduct my own "study" (yes, I use the term loosely). I've started keeping a log of my best-guess items that might be useful - right now I've started to record some baseline (pre-"study") data. I'm just wondering whether there are any other factors that I should look at. I'm recording the following: Time awake and asleep, diet, meds, unusual stress, alcohol & caffeine use and tinnitus level at awake, mid-morning, noon, mid-afternoon and evening. Are there any other factors I should consider? Any advice is appreciated - I'm hoping to start using this device within the week. Charlie this device is developed by some fine physiologists. All their material is published in acceptable literature. I haven't had any personal experience with it, but they list good persons who have written on it. You can test yourself by measuring the duration of residual inhibition after each treatment. Hope this helps. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com Thanks for the comments Murray. Can you think of any other factors that I should record during and after the baseline of my informal study? One other comment / thought. I wonder why they refer to 10KHz - 20KHz as "ultrasonic". In every engineering text I've ever read, the nominal range of human hearing is listed as 20Hz - 20KHz. I also wonder what the difference would be if I used a headphone to deliver the stimulus as opposed to the piezo bone-conductor. One of the people I spoke with claims that humans can "hear" well beyond the normal range with bone conduction. Just curious. Charlie (Having a VERY quiet tinnitus day - Thank You God!!) > this device is developed by some fine physiologists. All their material is > published in acceptable literature. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com > I have been offered a free trial period of the Ultra Quiet. You should also see the detinnitizer thread. > I'm recording the following: Time awake and asleep, diet, meds, unusual > stress, alcohol & caffeine use and tinnitus level at awake, mid-morning, > noon, mid-afternoon and evening. Are there any other factors I should > consider? Acuity. The sound of insects. Violins. You may prefer not loosing any more treble. By misleading use of the word ultrasonic the manufacturer gets defined as "not credible". Personally I do not trust people that are not credible. > Any advice is appreciated Your mileage may vary. > - I'm hoping to start using this device within the > week. It is counter productive, also because it does not fix your attitude problem. Tinnitus is a symptom of ongoing repair work, to stop the tinnitus you have to stop the repair work, do you really want to do that? What you should worry about is the hearing loss and not making it worse. There is no way that sound energy can enter the ear without somehow having an influence. High frequency noise without the matching LF content it naturally would have is in my experience occasionally very painful, with a threshold of pain below that it should have on a simple dB scale. If you decide, your very own choice in life, to worry more about hearing damage than about tinnitus, then the conclusion is to say "thank you for the kind offer, but no thanks" to the offer of testing that contraption. They call it ultrasonic because standard hearing tests stop at 8 kHz, and it is a frivolous misuse of that word, in other words: from the viewpoint of commonly accepted definitions it is an intentional lie made to earn money. I found this on their site: "High frequency modulation of music allows a sense of "pitch and timbre in musicians and serious music listeners "even those with high frequency sensorineural hearing loss. (from http://www.people.vcu.edu/~lenhardt/Pages/UltraQuiet.html) I also found a style of marketing, with lots of unsubstantiated claims, that worries me deeply. I asked the good people over in rec.audio.tech whether my unease about the concept was relevant, and those that have commented until now have been at best and very politely said "unimpressed with the quality of documentation". It is my skilled audio engineeer and tinnitus sufferers opinion that the contraption is more likely to do bad, i. e. cause hearing damage than to do good. > Charlie Kind regards Peter Larsen  Signature******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* Thanks for the thoughts. Here's a minor update: I spoke with the aforementioned "tinnitus guru" - an MD at Mass Eye and Ear (a world-class Harvard teaching hospital in Boston). Here's what he said: "I know of no clinical studies on this device, but I'd be very interested in your experience". But he did know of the device. That leads me to believe that he doesn't think it will do harm - although I do understand and respect your thinking on the subject. Parenthetically, at the same booth at this convention was the maker of the Arches Tinnitus Formula - a vitamin formula that supposedly decreases and sometimes eliminates tinnitus. The company president claims that this world-class guru MD "recommends and uses" this product - which costs $120 for a 100 day supply (the minimum recommended). I asked this MD what he thought of Arches Tinnitus Formula. In response to my question, he said: "I know of no good studies on this product and I know of no clinical benefit". Reinforcing my personal belief that most of the "nutritional supplement" sellers are vultures who prey on the fear, pain and diseases of others. Truly the lowest of the low. And the final piece of the update is that my tinnitus has dropped from a 6-9 (on a scale of 10) to a 0-1! It's been four days of blissful silence and peace, and I have to thank God almighty for answering my prayers! I pray it continues - and if it indeed does, I will have no reason to start my mini clinical trial of the Ultra Quiet. So that's where things stand for the moment - and again, thanks for your comments. Charlie > > I have been offered a free trial period of the Ultra Quiet. > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Peter Larsen By misleading use of the word ultrasonic the manufacturer gets defined as "not credible". Personally I do not trust people that are not credible. the works and studies of Lenahan and others involved with this product have been published in respected journals. If you go to their site or write to them they will send you the published articles. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com >> By misleading use of the word ultrasonic the manufacturer >> gets defined as "not credible". Personally I do not trust >> people that are not credible. > the works and studies of Lenahan and others involved with > this product have been published in respected journals. I do not say that he is incompetent. What I do say is that his marketing of this product has the appearance of snakeoil marketing, it may be an erroneous impression, but it is his marketing. What I also say is that I think this product, as well as the detinnitizing sounds (one and the same) is based on erroneous thinking in this regard. Yes, pushing back to pre-recovery stops tinnitus for a while, but later it comes back with a vengeance. I experienced a beatiful demonstration of this saturday night - I went to a concert with one girl singing, one jazz guitar, one box for slapping, 2/3's into the concert the PA operator managed to break the 100 dB barrier instead of respecting the sound that he and the artists had agreed on during the soundcheck, where they specifically requested that it should be less loud and I had to wear earplugs. Ah well ... in three weeks time it will subside to tolerable again, but there was none on the way home, and none yesterday morning, it came during the afternoon. > If you go to their site or write to them > they will send you the published articles. Surely if he has documentation and a website, then there is some combination of the two that makes sense. The fact that his product was demonstrated from a booth with what anybody would label snakeoil also does it no good at all. With all the respect that your often fine advice here warrants, in this respect I disagree with you on the relevance of this product. It shall however not be said that I don't allow him a chance of responding, so I CC this to him, for all your reverence for him I thought you had already beeped him to make him join in. > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com Kind regards Peter Larsen Signature******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* Peter, I'd like to point out once again that this booth was at a VERY well respected clinical / academic event - The American Academy of Audiology. In this venue, the company exposes themselves to the potential ridicule of the entire profession. That having been said, I agree with your notion that the vitamin formula is likely snake oil. Now that I've collected about two weeks of baseline data, I'm about to start my trial of the Ultra Quiet device - I'll let you know how it goes. Charlie > >> By misleading use of the word ultrasonic the manufacturer > >> gets defined as "not credible". Personally I do not trust [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Peter Larsen I agree with your notion that the vitamin formula is likely snake oil. Now that I've collected about two weeks of baseline data, what viatamin formula is that?? Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com At the same booth was a guy selling the "Arches Tinnitus Formula". He's states that it has heavy doses of Ginko, lots of antioxidants and zinc. He gave me a handful of what appear to be poorly designed and uncontrolled studies. I am VERY wary of the "nutritional supplement" pushers. While I think we can all agree that some conditions (like scurvy) may well be caused by deficiencies in certain elements (vitamin C), my experience thus far in life is that these are generally hawked by people who make their living by preying on the pain, fear and diseases of others. And almost always do so without the benefit of properly designed and controlled clinical trials. It costs $120 for a 100 day supply - which he said was the minimum necessary to see results. And of course, there's no guarantee. So the proposition is: 1) Give me $120.00. 2) You might see (hear) results. 3) You might not. 4) If you don't, then don't blame me because I didn't promise anything. 4a) If I had promised anything, then I would have had to prove my case to the FDA before marketing this stuff. And that's why I'm wary of this kind of pitch. Charlie > I agree with your notion that the vitamin formula is > likely snake oil. Now that I've collected about two weeks of baseline data, > > what viatamin formula is that?? > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com <big snip> > I'm recording the following: Time awake and asleep, diet, meds, unusual > stress, alcohol & caffeine use and tinnitus level at awake, mid-morning, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Charlie First time poster here. Two-year tinnitus sufferer. This posting may be too late, but I'm wondering if you are recording sodium intake with your diet? The only relief I've had with my tinnitus was when I drastically cut my sodium from my diet...I only consumed homemade EVERYTHING, including ketchup! However, I am a student with a job and cooking from scratch takes up too much time. I may try again with cooking on the weekends and freezing foods since I finally got a microwave oven. Good luck and I hope you have continued good news to report. --Library Student <big snip> > I'm recording the following: Time awake and asleep, diet, meds, unusual > stress, alcohol & caffeine use and tinnitus level at awake, mid-morning, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Charlie First time poster here. Two-year tinnitus sufferer. This posting may be too late, but I'm wondering if you are recording sodium intake with your diet? The only relief I've had with my tinnitus was when I drastically cut my sodium from my diet...I only consumed homemade EVERYTHING, including ketchup! However, I am a student with a job and cooking from scratch takes up too much time. I may try again with cooking on the weekends and freezing foods since I finally got a microwave oven. Good luck and I hope you have continued good news to report. --Library Student ><big snip> >> I'm recording the following: Time awake and asleep, diet, meds, unusual [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >--Library Student Do you track your sodium use (as in the approx. amt. of mg you consume in a day)? Do you have any idea how much less than the ceiling level of 2400mg/day for a 2000 kcal diet it is? (Fitday.com provides an opportunity to track sodium levels in case others were wondering how to do that easily.) Terri http://pub219.ezboard.com/btinnitusactivismandsupport As you found out it is very difficult to maintain a salt free diet here. If you drink lots of distilled water, that removes a good bit of salt. Or, you can ask your docotor about takng a mild diuretic that is a carbonic anhydrose inhibitor. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com Murray Grossan, M.D. wrote: > As you found out it is very difficult to maintain a salt free diet here. > If you drink lots of distilled water, that removes a good bit of salt. > Or, you can ask your docotor about takng a mild diuretic that is a carbonic > anhydrose inhibitor. That's an interesting idea: drinking distilled water. I generally drink tap water, but I'm willing to give it a go. I do drink a lot of water, more than most people I know. Since moving across the country recently, I haven't consulted a doctor, but the diuretic may be worth a try. Have some of your patients found success reducing their tinnitus with such a plan? Thanks! --Library Student Have some of your patients found success reducing their tinnitus with such a plan? If they didn't, I wouldn't be able to afford the rent. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com > As you found out it is very difficult to maintain a salt free diet here. > If you drink lots of distilled water, that removes a good bit of salt. > Or, you can ask your docotor about takng a mild diuretic that is a carbonic > anhydrose inhibitor. > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com What are some diuretics classified as "carbonic anhydrose inhibitors"? I ask because my primary care (the only one I have available right now), has no time to look up anything but will pursue what I ask about and can explain. A note: I am allergic to sulfa and that has ruled out at least one diuretic. TIA Louise examples of carbonic anhydrase inhibitors are Examples include acetazolamide, dichlorphenamide, and methazolamide Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com > examples of carbonic anhydrase inhibitors are > Examples include acetazolamide, dichlorphenamide, and methazolamide > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com thanks - I'll check them out Terri wrote: > Do you track your sodium use (as in the approx. amt. of mg you consume > in a day)? Do you have any idea how much less than the ceiling level > of 2400mg/day for a 2000 kcal diet it is? > > (Fitday.com provides an opportunity to track sodium levels in case > others were wondering how to do that easily.) I didn't keep track of the numbers of sodium milligrams I consumed, but I simply eliminated all commercially prepared foods and made everything from scratch. I did not look up the natural sodium content of the foods. A sample day's meals might include: oatmeal with cinnamon & raisins and a glass of fresh juice for breakfast, salad with homemade oil & vinegar dressing with chicken for lunch, meat & potato for dinner. Using a bread machine, I baked my own bread without salt. That's just a general idea of my menu. Hopefully I can return to a very low sodium diet soon and report my results here. I'll probably write down the ingredients of what I eat next time, so I can look up the sodium content of the natural foods at some point. Maybe I'll try out fitday.com. --Library Student
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