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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / March 2004Stermtil
I was once given a few Stemetil tablets by a doctor. They worked well and stopped the noise. But the ones I bought OTC don't work at all. The ones given to me by my doctor look purple while the ones i bought on my own are white in color. I once asked my doctor why there was the difference, he gave me a 'cunning' smile and refused to give me any more of his pills from his own clinic but just asked me to go out and buy for myself. Anyone here could chip in some information about this drug? THX FP > I was once given a few Stemetil tablets by a doctor. They worked well > and stopped the noise. But the ones I bought OTC don't work at all. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > FP Francis. I doubt if you could get Stemetil over the counter. It is a phenothiazine and availble only by prescription. See precautions below: Side Effects of This Medicine Along with their needed effects, phenothiazines can sometimes cause serious unwanted effects. Tardive dyskinesia or tardive dystonia (muscle movement disorders) may occur and may not go away after you stop using the medicine. Signs of tardive dyskinesia or tardive dystonia include worm-like movements of the tongue, or other uncontrolled movements of the mouth, tongue, cheeks, jaw, body, arms, or legs. Another possible serious unwanted effect is the neuroleptic malignant syndrome (NMS). Signs and symptoms of NMS include severe muscle stiffness, fever, fast heartbeat, difficult breathing, increased sweating, and loss of bladder control. You and your doctor should discuss the good this medicine will do as well as the risks of taking it . Aprilm The name of the medicine is PERCHLORPERAZINE. When i go to the pharmacist, he gave me STEMETIL. Have i got the wrong thing? FP ========================================================= > > I was once given a few Stemetil tablets by a doctor. They worked well > > and stopped the noise. But the ones I bought OTC don't work at all. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Aprilm > The name of the medicine is PERCHLORPERAZINE. When i go to the > pharmacist, he gave me STEMETIL. Have i got the wrong thing? [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > > > Aprilm Francis, PERCHLORPERAZINE and STEMETIL are both phenothiazines. Have you looked at medline plus for indications for use and side effects ? Aprilm > The name of the medicine is PERCHLORPERAZINE. When i go to the > pharmacist, he gave me STEMETIL. Have i got the wrong thing? > > FP Wouldn't the best source of this information be the pharmacist who dispensed the med? HNG > > The name of the medicine is PERCHLORPERAZINE. When i go to the > > pharmacist, he gave me STEMETIL. Have i got the wrong thing? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Wouldn't the best source of this information be the pharmacist who dispensed > the med? They said it is the one. But the pills surely differ from the ones given to me by my doctor. By the way, I am in the process of trying out an anti-anxiety pill. These pills are taken only when you have a lousy day from T but not taken everyday for years. And they are very cheap. If they worked out for me, I would post the name here. FP =========================================== > HNG STEMETIL (Prochlorperazine, Compazine) Uses: Used to treat the nausea and vomiting caused by radiation therapy, cancer chemotherapy, surgery, and other conditions. Compazine is an old line drug for nausea and vomiting. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com > STEMETIL (Prochlorperazine, Compazine) > > Uses: > Used to treat the nausea and vomiting caused by radiation therapy, cancer > chemotherapy, surgery, and other conditions. > Compazine is an old line drug for nausea and vomiting. The name that appears on the bag containing several tablets given by my doctor is PERCHLORPERAZINE. They work wonderfully in stopping the noise. But the ones from the pharmacist are different. FP ====================== > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com >The name that appears on the bag containing several tablets given by >my doctor is PERCHLORPERAZINE. They work wonderfully in stopping the >noise. But the ones from the pharmacist are different. ............. FP, "perchlorperazine" is what is called a "generic name." Now when a drug company manufactures a drug, that company usually gives the drug a "brand name." GlaxoSmithKline is a US company that manufactures perchlorperazine. The GlaxoSmithKline brand of perchlorperazine is called "Compazine." Aventis Pharma Inc. is a Canadian company that manufactures perchlorperazine. The Aventis Pharma Inc. brand of perchlorperazine is called "Stemtil." But it's all the same drug - perchlorperazine, which is a member of the phenothiazine family of tricyclic drugs. The tricyclics are not to be taken lightly. They are often used in patients with psychotic or other psychiatric illnesses marked by agitation and impaired reasoning. In addition they have other properties that help with nausea and vomiting. They are sometimes used as tranquilizers and have some antihistamine effects as well. Now in your case one of the tricyclics seems to be helping with your tinnitus. That's wonderful, but these drugs are very powerful and should only be used under close medical supervision. Hope this helps. smn > >The name that appears on the bag containing several tablets given by > >my doctor is PERCHLORPERAZINE. They work wonderfully in stopping the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Hope this helps. This helps a great deal! It shows you do have a great deal of knowledge about drugs. Where I am still being puzzled is that the ones I bought OTC did not help at all! My doctor prescribed PERCHLORPERAZINE to me and the pills are in purple color. His nurses call them STEMETIL. While the stemetil pills i bought are made by May and Baker and are white in color. Theirs could have been made by another manufacturer. Do drugs made by different manufactureres have the same kind of properties???????? By the way, my doctor thinks PERCHLORPERAZINE has little side effects. FP ==================================== > smn >This helps a great deal! It shows you do have a great deal of >knowledge about drugs. Where I am still being puzzled is that the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >another manufacturer. Do drugs made by different manufactureres have >the same kind of properties???????? ................ Prochlorperazine is prochlorperazine is prochlorperazine. (I misspelled it earlier in the thread.) There may be a quality control problem - but that is unlikely with a reputable drug manufacturer. smn > >This helps a great deal! It shows you do have a great deal of > >knowledge about drugs. Where I am still being puzzled is that the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > There may be a quality control problem - but that is unlikely with a > reputable drug manufacturer. Is it possible that after the initial few times, the medicine lost its magic? FP ================================ > smn >By the way, my doctor thinks PERCHLORPERAZINE has little side effects. .................. Side effects of prochlorperazine: Abnormal muscle rigidity, abnormal secretion of milk, abnormal sugar in urine, abnormalities of posture and movement, agitation, anemia, appetite changes, asthma, blurred vision, breast development in males, chewing movements, constipation, convulsions, difficulty swallowing, discolored skin tone, dizziness, drooling, drowsiness, dry mouth, ejaculation problems, exaggerated reflexes, fever, fluid retention, head arched backward, headache, heart attack, heels bent back on legs, high or low blood sugar, hives, impotence, inability to urinate, increased psychotic symptoms, increased weight, infection, insomnia, intestinal obstruction, involuntary movements of arms, hands, legs, and feet, involuntary movements of face, tongue, and jaw, irregular movements, jerky movements, jitteriness, light sensitivity, low blood pressure, mask-like face, menstrual irregularities, narrowed or dilated pupils, nasal congestion, nausea, pain in the shoulder and neck area, painful muscle spasm, parkinsonism-like symptoms, persistent, painful erections, pill-rolling motion, protruding tongue, puckering of the mouth, puffing of the cheeks, rigid arms, feet, head, and muscles, rotation of eyeballs or state of fixed gaze, shock, shuffling gait, skin peeling, rash and inflammation, sore throat, mouth, and gums, spasms in back, feet and ankles, jaw, and neck, swelling and itching skin, swelling in throat, tremors, yellowed eyes and skin smn > >By the way, my doctor thinks PERCHLORPERAZINE has little side effects. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > swelling and itching skin, swelling in throat, tremors, yellowed eyes > and skin Did not experience any of those for that few times. But why do doctors still recommend this medicine in view of its long list of side-effects? FP ============================================= > smn >This helps a great deal! It shows you do have a great deal of >knowledge about drugs. Where I am still being puzzled is that the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >FP >==================================== In the U.S., brand name drugs can have the amount of active ingredient vary by no more than 5% whereas the generic versions can have the active ingredient vary by up to 10% so the generic versions can be noticeably different with a fast-acting drug. The generic will look different from the brand name drug even if made by the same manufacturer. I don't know if these percentages hold in other countries even for drugs made by U.S. pharmaceutical companies. It could be that in unregulated countries the variance in active ingredients could be wider than the figures given above. It could also be true that your country has tighter regulations. As Howard mentioned, Nagler doesn't know any more about these drugs than anyone that can interpret a google search. Even a practicing physcian doesn't know everything there is to know about every drug and consults a handbook or internet source in situations that s/he doesn't normally deal with as a course of their practice. Terri http://pub219.ezboard.com/btinnitusactivismandsupport Usually when a drug is OTC the dose is reduced. For example, Alieve is 1/2 the dose of the prescription for Naprosyn. As someone who has seen side effects of Compazine I shudder to think that it is sold over the counter. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com >Usually when a drug is OTC the dose is reduced. For example, Alieve is 1/2 the >dose of the prescription for Naprosyn. >As someone who has seen side effects of Compazine I shudder to think that it is >sold over the counter. >Murray Grossan, M.D. ............... Might those be the side-effects that FP's doc says are pretty much non-existent? I listed them at: http://tinyurl.com/yq4u5 smn > >Usually when a drug is OTC the dose is reduced. For example, Alieve is 1/2 the > >dose of the prescription for Naprosyn. > >As someone who has seen side effects of Compazine I shudder to think that it is sold over the counter. I bot a large bottle of prochlorperazine mateate with the brand name STEMETIL. The pharmacist who sold me this bottle told me that it is commonly used for inner ear fluid balance. FP ==================================== > >Murray Grossan, M.D. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > smn >I bot a large bottle of prochlorperazine mateate with the brand name >STEMETIL. The pharmacist who sold me this bottle told me that it is >commonly used for inner ear fluid balance. ............... I was unaware that prochlorperazine (Compazine, Stemetil) is commonly used for inner ear fluid balance. In fact I looked up all the indications for prochlorperazine in the PDR (Physicians' Desk Reference), and I could not see any reference at all to inner ear fluid balance. smn > >I bot a large bottle of prochlorperazine mateate with the brand name > >STEMETIL. The pharmacist who sold me this bottle told me that it is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Reference), and I could not see any reference at all to inner ear > fluid balance. Next time when you look, kindly look into CHLORPROMAZINE. This drug was recommended by a Cambrigde graduate, not a quack, to treat T. I suppose it is another one of the prescription drugs. Right? FP > smn >Next time when you look, kindly look into CHLORPROMAZINE. This drug >was recommended by a Cambrigde graduate, not a quack, to treat T. I >suppose it is another one of the prescription drugs. Right? ................ Chlorpromazine is better known (in the States anyway) by the brand name Thorazine. It is one of the most potent anti-psychic drugs known to man. While Thorazine does have some anti-nausea properties and, it is most commonly used in psychosis and in severe manic-depressive disorder to control the manic phase. It is considered the drug of choice in schizophrenia. It has no role in the treatment of tinnitus. As a matter of fact, there are several controlled studies that have demonstrated that some of the tricyclics (the family of drugs to which prochlorpromazine and chlorpromazine belong) can potentially cause or exacerbate tinnitus. FP, I do not wish to be harsh - but you have solicited a lot of opinion here from a lot of people, and now I am going to give you an unsolicited opinion. My friend, in my opinion you are getting some absolutely dreadful (and sometimes dangerous) advice from the folk in China to whom you have chosen to turn. That goes for the Cambridge graduate "not a quack" who recommended chlorpromazine to the pharmacist who said that Stemetil is used for inner ear fluid balance to the doc who told you that prochlorperazine has almost no side effects to the doc who gave you some sort of scan that shows a red dot where supposedly your tinnitus originates to the doc who is putting you in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber to the fellow who is infusing some unknown herb into your veins that is supposed to alleviate the ringing but that has never been tested outside of China. (Don't you think if something REALLY worked it would have been subjected to a controlled study so that all of mankind could benefit?) Each of us here with a bit of "tinnitus mileage" in our bags has to some degree or another gone through what you are going through. Nobody wishes to harm you or make you feel foolish - we've been right where you are now. But at some point - and it differs for each of us - you will reach a level of understanding that will open the gates to your *beginning* to get better by in one way or another allowing your tinnitus to become so much a part of "self" that it largely ceases to be a problem for you even though it is still "there" ... while you (like the rest of us) wait for a true cure instead of empty promises that serve to temporarily raise hopes only to end in fustration and disappointment (which themselves are stressors that can raise your tinnitus level - just what you don't need). I apologize if my direct remarks have offended you or upset you. They are offered from a person who cares. Here's to silent days ahead for all. smn >>Next time when you look, kindly look into CHLORPROMAZINE. This drug >>was recommended by a Cambrigde graduate, not a quack, to treat T. I [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > >smn I am sure it never occurred to the great Dr. Nagler that fp might just be under a doctor's care for more than just tinnitus which supports my old theory of don't ask for or accept medical advice on the internet from someone that isn't familiar with your medical history and who has not actually examined you. Terri http://pub219.ezboard.com/btinnitusactivismandsupport >I am sure it never occurred to the great Dr. Nagler that fp might just >be under a doctor's care for more than just tinnitus which supports my >old theory of don't ask for or accept medical advice on the internet >from someone that isn't familiar with your medical history and who has >not actually examined you. ................ [No Response] smn > While Thorazine does have some anti-nausea properties and, it >is most commonly used in psychosis and in severe manic-depressive >disorder to control the manic phase. It is considered the drug of >choice in schizophrenia. It was the drug of choice decades ago, not any time recently. Exceptions might be for a quick calming/antipsychotic effect in an emergency situation, but it's long been replaced by more effective drugs with better side effect profiles. Susan >It was the drug of choice decades ago, not any time recently. Exceptions might >be for a quick calming/antipsychotic effect in an emergency situation, but it's >long been replaced by more effective drugs with better side effect profiles. ................ Thanks much for the information. Appreciate it. Shows ya how old I am! :-) Actually on a Yahoo search for schizophrenia AND "drug of choice," a few articles did name chlorpromazine as still the drug of choice (primarily in the elderly), but many more articles referred to the newer drugs - just as you say, Susan However, your comment regarding chlorpromazine's being replaced in the treatment of schizophrenia by more effective drugs "with better side effect profiles" still raises the type of issue that should be of concern to anybody contemplating the use of chlorpromazine for tinnitus, the issue of adverse reactions, which is the main point I was trying to make. smn > >Next time when you look, kindly look into CHLORPROMAZINE. This drug > >was recommended by a Cambrigde graduate, not a quack, to treat T. I [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > absolutely dreadful (and sometimes dangerous) advice from the folk in > China to whom you have chosen to turn. These are the western trained Hong Kong doctors. The doctors in China have no idea what the head they are. FP ======================================== That goes for the Cambridge > graduate "not a quack" who recommended chlorpromazine to the > pharmacist who said that Stemetil is used for inner ear fluid balance [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > smn Thank you for the lengthy reply. As a patient who has undergone so much, I know what works and what dosn't *for me* from what i have gone through. FP ================================ > >Next time when you look, kindly look into CHLORPROMAZINE. This drug > >was recommended by a Cambrigde graduate, not a quack, to treat T. I [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > smn >Thank you for the lengthy reply. As a patient who has undergone so >much, I know what works and what dosn't *for me* from what i have gone >through. ............. In the final analysis - what works "for you" is all that really matters. Best to you! smn Stephen Nagler <nagler@tinn.com> wrote in message snipped... > effects to the doc who gave you some sort of scan that shows a red dot > where supposedly your tinnitus originates to the doc who is putting > you in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber to the fellow who is infusing some > unknown herb into your veins that is supposed to alleviate the ringing > but that has never been tested outside of China. Dr.Nagler, this one is definitely a NO GO for you. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy, combined with intravenous injection, is veeeeeeeeeery effective for tinniuts patients particularly the new ones. I have seen enough people benefit from such a combination. I doubt if you could make a remark that it has not been tested outside China. Hyperbaric chamber was not invented in China. It might have been invented in the US or Japan. They have a long list of what this kind of treatment could do for people and one of the ills it is meant to treat is the problems of the EARS! You are no authority on this one, sorry! FP ========================================= (Don't you think if > something REALLY worked it would have been subjected to a controlled > study so that all of mankind could benefit?) [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > smn >Dr.Nagler, this one is definitely a NO GO for you. Hyperbaric oxygen >therapy, combined with intravenous injection, is veeeeeeeeeery [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >of treatment could do for people and one of the ills it is meant to >treat is the problems of the EARS! ................. FP, I'm comfortable with my statement in this regard. ................ >You are no authority on this one, sorry! .................... I do not claim to be. I'm just another person on this newsgroup giving my best shot at a difficult topic. smn fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part: >Hyperbaric oxygen >therapy, combined with intravenous injection, is veeeeeeeeeery >effective for tinniuts patients particularly the new ones. I have >seen enough people benefit from such a combination. I don't see any evidence that it works when I search the literature. You have seen "enough people benefit", but you don't know if it was "from such a combination." To know that the hyperbaric oxygen was responsible for improvement, you'd need a control group of some kind.  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > a combination." To know that the hyperbaric oxygen was responsible for > improvement, you'd need a control group of some kind. I personally know of 2 persons whose Ts have been 'cured' using this treatment and half of the people in that chamber i was in went there for their ear problems. Most of them have acknowledged improvement after a few times. These are the new sufferers. I have experienced improvement too. Mine is a 4-5 months T. Actually intravenous injection has been used in the west for T treatment too. I read that over the net. FP jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu (Jim Chinnis) wrote in message snipped... To know that the hyperbaric oxygen was responsible for > improvement, you'd need a control group of some kind. It is almost the standard practice in practically all state hospitals in China that have hyperbaric oxygen therapy treatment available. Some private clinic or small hospital doctors refuse to pass their patients to the state hospitals while others do their moral part. The 'control' group is large enough throughout the entire country of China. FP >jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu (Jim Chinnis) wrote in message >snipped... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >FP Do you know if there are fewer incidences of tinnitus per capita in China than in the US? If so, could it be from the treatments provided or from the lifestyle differences? Terri http://pub219.ezboard.com/btinnitusactivismandsupport > >jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu (Jim Chinnis) wrote in message > >snipped... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > China than in the US? If so, could it be from the treatments provided > or from the lifestyle differences? I don't have the data. Only large city and state hospitals in China provide HPBO therapy. Small ones don't. And some of those who so unfortunately go to small ones may never know what HPBO is all about. FP > Terri > > http://pub219.ezboard.com/btinnitusactivismandsupport > jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu (Jim Chinnis) wrote in message > snipped... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > FP In a controlled, double-blind study, Francis, there would be two chambers side-by-side. An equal number of tinnitus sufferers would be situated in each. One of chambers would be operated normally while those in the other chamber would experience the same sounds associated with normal operation. The chambers would be operated by someone who wasn't otherwise participating in the study. The interviewers would not know which subject was in which chamber and neither would their subjects wouldn't know if they had been in the active chamber or the dummy. The reliability of such a study would depend only on the number of subjects with larger numbers of subjects yielding higher levels of confidence in the results. So would you care to join me in a double blinded magnesium study :) - jean (still eating prunes) >In a controlled, double-blind study, Francis, there would be two chambers >side-by-side. An equal number of tinnitus sufferers would be situated in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >with larger numbers of subjects yielding higher levels of confidence in the >results. > So would you care to join me in a double blinded magnesium study :) > > - jean (still eating prunes) Your biffy or mine? Exactly. Like the parachute. Since there is only anecdotal evidence of its efficacy, we need a double blind study to prove that using a parachute is better than none at all. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com >(Jim Chinnis) writes: >You have seen "enough people benefit", but you don't know if it was "from >such >a combination." To know that the hyperbaric oxygen was responsible for >improvement, you'd need a control group of some kind. ................................ Hi Jim, Keep in mind a new tinnitus sufferer doesn't much care about control groups and double blinded studies. HBO therapy centers have been a topic of conversation is ast for many years. They must have some benefit or why would they be in use. Actually, I think FP has more options offered to him in China than he would have in the US. - jean marktvalu@aol.com (Marktvalu) wrote in part: >>(Jim Chinnis) writes: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Keep in mind a new tinnitus sufferer doesn't much care about control groups >and double blinded studies. Some don't. But they can't determine how effective an imperfect treatment is without one. I only object to the inferences they draw without benefit of a control group or even any explanation that makes any sense. > HBO therapy centers have been a topic of conversation is ast for many years. The same is true for Ginkgo, acupuncture, Dr. Bob's Magic Ear Drops, and shunt surgery. > They must have some benefit or why would they be in use. Huh? > Actually, I think FP has more options offered to him in China than he would >have in the US. That's possible. The question is whether anything actually helps--and whether some things may hurt. I must say that it seems that he has less access to doctors than I'm used to. I don't understand why it is so hard for a patient to get information from a doctor who has seen said patient. The last time a doctor refused to return my calls about an (expensive) test, I just didn't pay his bill. He finally returned my call when his accounting office said I wouldn't pay until he gave me the results of the test. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > marktvalu@aol.com (Marktvalu) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > some things may hurt. I must say that it seems that he has less access to > doctors than I'm used to. You could have easy access to doctors in China but NOT in Hong Kong. The doctors in China have less knowledge of imported drugs than the doctors in Hong Kong and their command of the English language is poorer than those in HK. In HK, it takes a waiting period of about 6 months before you could see an ENT doctor in a government hospital while in China is about 6 minutes in some cases. FP ================================================= I don't understand why it is so hard for a patient > to get information from a doctor who has seen said patient. > > The last time a doctor refused to return my calls about an (expensive) test, I > just didn't pay his bill. He finally returned my call when his accounting > office said I wouldn't pay until he gave me the results of the test. HBO therapy centers have been a topic of conversation is ast for many years. > The same is true for Ginkgo, acupuncture, Dr. Bob's Magic Ear Drops, and shunt > surgery. at least we know that EERIE WAX and Bora Bora Juice works. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com > I only object to the inferences they draw without benefit of a control group or even any explanation that makes any sense. .................................. Aah, but your background and training have afflicted you with tunnel vision :). If there were some control group studies going on and progress being made - people wouldn't have to resort to anecdotal evidence from a bunch of strangers on the internet. Until that happens we all have to *think outside the box*. - jean marktvalu@aol.com (Marktvalu) wrote in part: >> I only object to the inferences they draw without benefit of a control group >or even any explanation that makes any sense. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > - jean Actually, there are some controlled studies and there are certainly some reasonable theories about tinnitus with some evidence to support them. There are also a lot of theories and treatments that aren't very new but have never been tested in any reasonable way. The lack of data is often also informative. I'd place hyperbaric treatment in sort of a dark grey area. There's not much of a theory to suggest it would work. And despite its use in many countries for some time, and the fact that a controlled study would be very simple, no such study has been done as far as I know. It's fine to think outside the box, but then when inferences are drawn based on the shakiest of theorizing, it's probably best to be aware of that. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > marktvalu@aol.com (Marktvalu) wrote in part: <snip> > I'd place hyperbaric treatment in sort of a dark grey area. There's not much > of a theory to suggest it would work. And despite its use in many countries > for some time, and the fact that a controlled study would be very simple, no > such study has been done as far as I know. If I were manufacturing hyperbaric chambers and if I thought there was a good chance a study would indicate they were useful for treating tinnitus, I'd initiate such a study yesterday. Bill "Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: >> marktvalu@aol.com (Marktvalu) wrote in part: ><snip> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Bill Exactly. The dog in the night. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >"Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: >>If I were manufacturing hyperbaric chambers and if I thought there was a >>good chance a study would indicate they were useful for treating tinnitus, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Exactly. The dog in the night. ........ ... which is also why you will find no well-controlled studies attesting to the fact that homeopathic medicaments are effective in tinnitus. smn > >"Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > smn Yes, and if I were manufacturing either hyperbaric chambers or homeopathic remedies that I didn't think would produce good test results, I'd definitely NOT participate in a study. > marktvalu@aol.com (Marktvalu) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I'd place hyperbaric treatment in sort of a dark grey area. There's not much > of a theory to suggest it would work. There is, except that you may not have found it in search engines. FP ================================================= And despite its use in many countries > for some time, and the fact that a controlled study would be very simple, no > such study has been done as far as I know. > > It's fine to think outside the box, but then when inferences are drawn based > on the shakiest of theorizing, it's probably best to be aware of that. Just because its outside the box doesn't mean it works. When you plunk down good money to the doctor you expect him to use all his training and experience to advise you the best that can be done. You don't expect him/ her to recommend something just because he "heard about it" . For example, I can't recommend Hyperbaric O2 for my patients because my research and experience hasn't convinced me that it works in certain T cases. Otherwise I would be doing a disservice to my patient. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com > Just because its outside the box doesn't mean it works. > When you plunk down good money to the doctor you expect him to use all his > training and experience to advise you the best that can be done. You don't > expect him/ her to recommend something just because he "heard about it" . > For example, I can't recommend Hyperbaric O2 for my patients because my > research and experience hasn't convinced me Step up your research and experience fast, please. FP =================================== that it works in certain T cases. > Otherwise I would be doing a disservice to my patient. > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com > > Just because its outside the box doesn't mean it works. > > When you plunk down good money to the doctor you expect him to use all his [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > FP Well, Francis, if you are really confident this works, here are the folks to talk to: http://www.hyperbaric.com/pages/1/index.htm I'm certain they would just love to demonstrate how effective their chambers are for treating tinnitus and a double-blind study would be a piece of cake. They could make millions. Bill >Well, Francis, if you are really confident this works, here are the folks >to talk to: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Bill ................. FP, I could not agree with Bill more. If hyperbaric oxygen treatments and/or homeopathic medicaments *really* worked for tinnitus, all it would take would be a controlled blinded study of large enough size to show a statistically significant improvement in tinnitus. Once done, that would literally mean *millions* for anybody associated with the products. Of course, if the study were to show no value over placebo, then those associated with the products would lose the much smaller (but still substantial) cash cow they have going now by preying on the ill and infirmed. Homeopaths and hyperbaric oxygen proponents have to this point chosen the latter route. I wonder why? smn > >Well, Francis, if you are really confident this works, here are the folks > >to talk to: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > blinded study of large enough size to show a statistically significant > improvement in tinnitus. It is a standard practice in all government hospitals in China to treat tinnitus this way with the exception that small clinics or hospitals may not want to pass their clients onto larger ones. Is the T population in China large and 'controlled' enough? How about that in Germany and Japan. FP p.s. Kindly look beyond the horizon of chips and burgers...and Hollywood movies. ================================= Once done, that would literally mean > *millions* for anybody associated with the products. Of course, if > the study were to show no value over placebo, then those associated [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > smn > > >Well, Francis, if you are really confident this works, here are the folks > > >to talk to: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > FP Those numbers certainly would be sufficient. Find a few thousand of them to participate in a controlled study and then we will all learn something. In the meantime, Francis, you honestly don't know if your tinnitus improves from just sitting in the chamber, from the pressure, from the oxygen or from the distraction. Why don't you promote such a test? > > Stephen Nagler <nagler@tinn.com> wrote in message > news:<24ve40lag6l51g7ul272lob81v40rl9ctj@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > from just sitting in the chamber, from the pressure, from the oxygen or from > the distraction. Why don't you promote such a test? Half of the people in the chamber go there for their ear problems. Their doctors could not have conspired at the same time. And look at the website I showed all of you that it is not just in China, but Japan and Germany that people use that treatment for tinnitus. You do raise a good point in that having gone through so many treatment, one is at a loss as to which one brings about the greatest remedy. But that applies to me only. Most other ear sufferers go for only 2 treatments; the hyperbaric and the intravenous injection. FP ========================================== "Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message news:<edU1c.36 snipped... Find a few thousand of them to > participate in a controlled study and then we will all learn something. A few thousands? Where on earth could you find a few thousands to participate in a 'controlled' test? Assuming the doctors in China, Japan and Germany are as knowledgeable as the ones in the US and they are carrying out this practice on their patients, is it about time the doctors in the US should ask 'why'? I am sure the doctors in these countries have been recording what they have been observing on their patients in relation to the kind of treatments placed on them. They would have discontinued this kind of treatment if they had not found anything fruitful in their work. The doctors in these countries could not have conspired to do something which the doctors in alt have not attempted. Don't you think it is about time the doctors in alt(assuming they are licensed) should at least 'look into' that instead of just seating on their hands and keep rejecting. 'Looking into' means actually investigating. FP =========================== In > the meantime, Francis, you honestly don't know if your tinnitus improves > from just sitting in the chamber, from the pressure, from the oxygen or from > the distraction. Why don't you promote such a test? >"Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message news:<edU1c.36 >snipped... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> from just sitting in the chamber, from the pressure, from the oxygen or from >> the distraction. Why don't you promote such a test? I get your point FP. These are supposedly hearing "professionals" that won't listen to an anectodal account of something that has been helpful for your tinnitus, and are dismissing it out of hand because they themselves have not studied it enough to know whether there is a benefit. Instead of taking it seriously, they are hiding behind the "it has been adequately studied/correlated" yet. Neither have a lot of tinnitus treatments. Some have, and have been exposed as snake oil, but even so-called "respectable" experts endorse and promote snake oil products and therapies because they "believe" they work. As a patient you are more motivated to find the ultimate solution. As a relatively new tinnitus sufferer you are aggressively approaching the problem in ways that are available to you. Don't listen to the naysayers like these guys. What you have done is given the rest of us sufferers something to think about as another possible solution which is a purpose of the ng. There are so many triggers for tinnitus, the therapy you are trying may be something that works on your trigger. Thanks for raising the issue of HB therapy again. Terri http://pub219.ezboard.com/btinnitusactivismandsupport <snip> >These are supposedly hearing "professionals" > that won't listen to an anectodal account of something that has been [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Terri Hi Terri, There is a big difference in the way anecdotal evidence is introduced here. In some cases posters simply say they tried a product and that it seems to help them. In other cases, however, the anecdotal evidence is presented in such strong language as to suggest everyone try the same thing. The latter is dangerous when the post promotes an expensive, untested treatment, one with dangerous side effects, or both. When someone simply says "I tried ginkgo and it worked" it is helpful when someone posts a reply saying "I tried it and it didn't work". The second post isn't necessarily a personal attack on the first poster but rather a dose of reality. In the HBO2 example, a double-blind study would be so cheap and easy that one must wonder why the manufacturers haven't funded such a study considering the number of people who have T. Francis seems adamant that because a lot of people undergo this treatment it must work. Well, Francis, rest assured a lot more people have tried Ginkgo than HBO2. A double-blind study of the effectiveness of Ginkgo yields: "There were no significant differences in primary or secondary outcome measures between the groups. 34 of 360 participants receiving active treatment reported that their tinnitus was less troublesome after 12 weeks of treatment compared with 35 of 360 participants who took placebo". http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=26593 > <snip> > >These are supposedly hearing "professionals" [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > because a lot of people undergo this treatment it must work. Well, Francis, > rest assured a lot more people have tried Ginkgo than HBO2. I believe there have been studies but you may not have found them in search engines. I showed you the website in my post that the other 3 countries are using this for tinnitus. There must have been some studies carried out in those countries. Otherwise, people would not have continued using it. I have personally known 2 persons who were cured of their tinnitus by going through HBO2 and intravenous treatment. FP =========================== > A double-blind study of the effectiveness of Ginkgo yields: "There were no > significant differences in primary or secondary outcome measures between the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=26593 <snip> > > rest assured a lot more people have tried Ginkgo than HBO2. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > FP You can also rest assured, Francis, that a LOT of people are taking Ginkgo for their tinnitus despite the fact that a comprehensive, double-blind study show it to be ineffective. As a matter of fact, after that study, the Ginkgo pushers claimed it using the wrong dosage. Of course, they didn't repeat the study using what they claimed to be the correct dosage... for obvious reasons. :-) > <snip> > > > rest assured a lot more people have tried Ginkgo than HBO2. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > repeat the study using what they claimed to be the correct dosage... for > obvious reasons. :-) I am sure there are studies done. I posted "who says HBO2 is used in China only?" some time ago. In the website, there are statistics and studies done. You could go and take a look. FP =================================== fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part: >I am sure the doctors in these >countries have been recording what they have been observing on their >patients in relation to the kind of treatments placed on them. They >would have discontinued this kind of treatment if they had not found >anything fruitful in their work. Francis, this is an example of the difference in views that is causing dissention here. I would argue that medicine based on the methods you describe cannot go very far in many cases. Where the thing being treated is subjective and may vary in judged severity this is particularly so. Many doctors evolved many treatments for conditions that became fairly standard over time. Then people did controlled studies and found that the treatments did not work or even did harm. Controlled studies are done all over the developed world. And doctors still use their observational skills--sometimes to the patients' advantage and sometimes to their disadvantage--all over the world. As a footnote, I will add that I know that Dr. Nagler has traveled the world to meet with tinnitus researchers and clinicians. He is hardly limited by what takes place in the US. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > FP > p.s. Kindly look beyond the horizon of chips and burgers...and > Hollywood movies. > ================================= You have posted countless questions here, most of which have been answered by knowledgeable people from the States or Europe with more patience than I have. So here's my P.S. Kindly take your trite condemnation of "western civilization" and shove it. HNG >So here's my P.S. Kindly take your trite condemnation of "western >civilization" and shove it. Oh, please, can we all just be grownups for more than a week or two? Susan <GET OVER IT> > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan <GET OVER IT> Susan, There are times, rare, that I lose my temper. There are rarer times when I express that loss of temper. This was one of them. HNG >There are times, rare, that I lose my temper. There are rarer times when I >express that loss of temper. This was one of them. I understand about tempers, since I've been working hard to control mine as I read ast these days. Not every intemperate moment requires a public airing. On ast, the stakes are high, as you know from it's history. Susan > I understand about tempers, since I've been working hard to control mine as I > read ast these days. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Susan I certainly agree that not every intemperate moment should be publicly aired. Most often, tis better to sit on your hands and count to 20 that to type and click. I have yet to post anything on or about the religious zealots/a.sholes (hmmm that could be considered a comment, couldn't it). But this time was a bit too much, for me. HNG >I certainly agree that not every intemperate moment should be publicly >aired. Most often, tis better to sit on your hands and count to 20 that to >type and click. I have yet to post anything on or about the religious >zealots/a.sholes (hmmm that could be considered a comment, couldn't it). >But this time was a bit too much, for me. Yet I read the same comment from Francis without taking offense. I thought it was a lame attempt at being flip and humorous, not a comment worth having an international incident over. Perception is reality, even when it's wrong. Susan > > I understand about tempers, since I've been working hard to control mine > as I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > HNG Bullshit, everything's *too much* for you. Damn jew wannabe doctors, you're all alike. You held the nails while Nagler drove them in. > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > There are times, rare, that I lose my temper. There are rarer times when I > express that loss of temper. This was one of them. Read carefully next time before you reply. Don't just take something out of context and run away with endless gumblings. In particular, don't just say something for the sake of saying so. FP ==================================================== > HNG > > FP > > p.s. Kindly look beyond the horizon of chips and burgers...and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > So here's my P.S. Kindly take your trite condemnation of "western > civilization" and shove it. That is not what you call western civilization condemnation. I was using this figuratively to tell Dr. Nagler to look at what is being carried out in countries other than the US in the treatment of tinnitus. Yes, Hollywood movies do make a lot of people very ignorant of the outside world. Don't you think so? But that is a far cry from condemning western civilization, as western civlization means more than Hollywood. FP ================================= > HNG fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part: >Kindly look beyond the horizon of chips and burgers...and >Hollywood movies. The development of experimental statistics and hypothesis testing is a human accomplishment with contributions from many parts of the world. It is a way of determining what factors actually influence something and what factors don't, and by how much. Observation itself tends to fail unless the effect is consistent and uniform. You appear to reject the idea that a scientific approach can be useful in sorting out treatment effects and seem to want to rely on observation alone. In my opinion your abilities at observation--as indicated by the cultural slur above--are too limited to be of any value. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sorting out treatment effects and seem to want to rely on observation alone. > In my opinion your abilities at observation--as indicated by the cultural slur above--are too limited to be of any value. That statement above was made to Dr. Nagler and the idea was that he should look beyond the US border for various kinds of scientific innovation and experiments on T that are being carried out in countries other than the US. You took 'something out of the context' and have made a bunch of useless statements above as if you are so very learnt that you could lecture on people while in reality you are just learning about T as much as many around. Who has denied the importance of being scientific? Next time please read first before opening up your month! FP >bushlies@whitehouse.now writes: >Well, Francis, if you are really confident this works, here are the folks >to talk to: >http://www.hyperbaric.com/pages/1/index.htm >They could make millions. ................................. I hope your still practicing with that degaussing coil, Bill. :) - jean > >bushlies@whitehouse.now writes: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > - jean Speaking of which, are we supposed to take OFF the tinfoil hat when using the degaussing coil, or do we leave it on? >Speaking of which, are we supposed to take OFF the tinfoil hat when using >the degaussing coil, or do we leave it on? ....................... LOL Leave it on and plug it in :) - jean > >bushlies@whitehouse.now writes: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > - jean It wouldn't be that tough to convert one into a hyperbaric spa/diner. Sit down at a small table situated under a degaussing coil. Eat a bowl of soup laced with ginkgo while breathing pure oxygen, getting a massage and contemplating yourself in a mirror; all to pink noise (or Pink Floyd). Sorry, we won't be able to include ear candles in that atmosphere. Should be as popular as EERIE WAX on a doorknob. > > entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in message > news:<20040304005558.29604.00000812@mb-m21.aol.com>... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Well, Francis, if you are really confident this works, I am going thru the treatment and it has helped but has not cured my T yet. My T is 3-6 months old and that kind of treatment is good for the new ones. FP ==================== here are the folks > to talk to: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Bill >Just because its outside the box doesn't mean it works. ..........well we know *inside the box* hasn't worked :) >When you plunk down good money to the doctor you expect him to use all his >training and experience to advise you the best that can be done. ............They dont have any advice besides live with it Murray. No one can dispute that. ............I wasnt' exactly talkin about dr's here. My phrase *thinking outside the box* was directed more toward the people in this newsgroup rather than our personal physicians. - jean >Next time when you look, kindly look into CHLORPROMAZINE. This drug >was recommended by a Cambrigde graduate, not a quack, to treat T. I >suppose it is another one of the prescription drugs. Right? Francis, this is a powerful neuroleptic with a very high incidence of adverse effects, some of them irreversible, IME. Susan > STEMETIL (Prochlorperazine, Compazine) It is STEMETIL(PERCHLORPERAZINE MALEATE). Are they the same thing? FP ========================================================== > Uses: > Used to treat the nausea and vomiting caused by radiation therapy, cancer > chemotherapy, surgery, and other conditions. > Compazine is an old line drug for nausea and vomiting. > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com > > STEMETIL (Prochlorperazine, Compazine) > > It is STEMETIL(PERCHLORPERAZINE MALEATE). Are they the same thing? > > FP > ========================================================== This will seem curt Francis because I mean it that way. It took me 15 seconds to bring up Google, put in Stemetil as a search and come up with the following site as the second listing: http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b2.pharmaceutical/b2.1.monographs/CPS-%20Monographs/ CPS-%20(General%20Monographs-%20S)/STEMETIL.html I am sure that Google is available world wide. I think your posts will get less and less attention if you continue to ask questions that you can easily answer yourself. HNG > > entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in message > news:<20040228022326.20240.00000434@mb-m27.aol.com>... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I am sure that Google is available world wide. Your site is not accessible where I am, for your information, as the network here is very poor. > I think your posts will get less and less attention if you continue to ask > questions that you can easily answer yourself. My question is why the ones given to me by my doc worked while the ones i bought OTC did not. This question has not been answered yet. Perhaps you could shed some light. FP ================================= > HNG >It is STEMETIL(PERCHLORPERAZINE MALEATE). Are they the same thing? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Murray Grossan, M.D. >> http://www.ent-consult.com >> STEMETIL (Prochlorperazine, Compazine) > >It is STEMETIL(PERCHLORPERAZINE MALEATE). Are they the same thing? > >FP ........................ Yes smn |
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