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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / February 2004What is the point of going to see a doctor?
As a newbie into this group, one could easily wander away with the impression that since there is no cure for T, why bother to see a doctor anyway? Please allow me to suggest that this is a dangerous impression. FP When would I see a doctor for this? I was born with tinnitus. I thought it was normal until some jerk here told me it wasn't. Now I am on medication for anxiety and it has become a problem because I have been told it is a terrible affliction. Before I just thought everybody had it. > As a newbie into this group, one could easily wander away with the > impression that since there is no cure for T, why bother to see a > doctor anyway? Please allow me to suggest that this is a dangerous > impression. > > FP >Ear Rings" writes: >When would I see a doctor for this? I was born with tinnitus. I thought it >was normal until some jerk here told me it wasn't. Now I am on medication >for anxiety ....................... I did not know this Ear, but I do know that you could really be an asset to this group since a good portion of your posts are forthright and downright helpful. - jean You were born with T the way i was born with high blood pressure. Thus my post would not apply to you. But there are those who got T somewhere down the line as a result of whatever events in their life. They wander in this group and delay the time to see a doctor who might have been able to 'cure' him. FP ========================================= > When would I see a doctor for this? I was born with tinnitus. I thought it > was normal until some jerk here told me it wasn't. Now I am on medication [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > FP Troll > You were born with T the way i was born with high blood pressure. > Thus my post would not apply to you. But there are those who got T [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > > > > > FP If you were born with tinnitus it is probably an ongoing thing. If some jerk told it wasn't, then this was not a helpful thing for you to know. It is only a terrible affliction if you allow it to become so. You were OK before the Jerk met up with you. Can you go back to that state of mind? Tinnitus is not a fatal disease - it is a confounded nuisance - but only if you let it. Tinnitus is a pain in the neck Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://www.eebee.net/ http://www.tinnitusrelief.net/ For email: elly at eebee.cjb.net >When would I see a doctor for this? I was born with tinnitus. I thought it >was normal until some jerk here told me it wasn't. Now I am on medication [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> FP Mine seldom bothers me. It sometimes becoems annoying but I can control it most of the time. The time to control it varies with energy level. > If you were born with tinnitus it is probably an ongoing thing. > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >> > >> FP >As a newbie into this group, one could easily wander away with the>impression that since there is no cure for T, why bother to see a>doctor anyway? Please allow me to suggest that this is a dangerous >impression. .................. FP, By the time most of our readers find this group they have seen ent's, family physicians, internists, hemotologists, radiologists, and yes even psychiatrists. They've had hearing tests, ear cleanings, cat scans, mri's, full blood workups, x-rays, and ultrasounds. They've tried, ginko, vitamins, herbs, acupuncture, aspririn, tylenol, allergy medications, benadryl, bonine and every other over the counter drug available. Although none of us would ever suggest not seeing a doctor we are pretty much the last stop for tinnitus sufferers. The "AA" of the "big T". Although not a 12 step program our simple " Tinnitus Habituation for Dummies" advice is somtimes the sufferers last chance. None of us wanted it, but we all got it, learned to deal with it and we're all doing fine. If your tinnitus can't be cured, you have to come to terms with it sooner or later. It does get easier with time. - jean So the final solution is 'prescriptive drugs + habituation'. FP ================================= > >As a newbie into this group, one could easily wander away with the>impression > that since there is no cure for T, why bother to see a>doctor anyway? Please [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > - jean > fyfpoon@hotmail.com writes: >So the final solution is 'prescriptive drugs + habituation'. .......................... There is no final solution FP. The problem is solved when we no longer have any negative (physical or emotional) reaction to the tinnitus. How you get there is the best way for you. - jean marktvalu@aol.com (Marktvalu) wrote in message snipped... > The "AA" of the "big T". Although not a 12 step program our simple " Tinnitus > Habituation for Dummies" advice is somtimes the sufferers last chance. > > None of us wanted it, but we all got it, learned to deal with it and we're all doing fine. I might have misunderstood you. Are you doing fine because of the habituation or because of the drugs or BOTH? I am under the impression that once you put yourself on drugs, the ringing would by and large disappear. That was what i discovered when i was on Ativan. By the way, can you tell me something about ESTROZEPAM? I tried it before. It got me off to sleep very quickly but for only 3 hours. With some supplements, i managed to get good 6 hours sleep. This drug is widely available where i am. It is nevertheless a prescriptive drug though. THX FP ============================================= > If your tinnitus can't be cured, you have to come to terms with it sooner or > later. > > It does get easier with time. > > - jean FP writes: >I might have misunderstood you. Are you doing fine because of the habituation or because of the drugs or BOTH? ...............Some of us needed pharmacoligical help while habituating, some of us didn't. ..............Some took antidepressants, some took ativan and xanax. Some took enema's. :) .............Some continue to take meds some gave them up after a few months. ...........Bottom line is - you do what you have to do to maintain your sanity while coming to terms with this affliction. ........... Since there is no "cure" whatever works for you is the best way to handle this situation. - jean > As a newbie into this group, one could easily wander away with the > impression that since there is no cure for T, why bother to see a > doctor anyway? Please allow me to suggest that this is a dangerous > impression. > > FP I agree 100% and I would like to see the doctors, ents, audiologists, psychologists as well as the other helpful people who frequent this newsgroup be able to post freely. When I first happened into this newsgroup I had nothing but a headful of noise and no clue. I had seen two GP doctors who communicated to me that I was just screwed. I certainly didn't know which questions to ask. They let me walk out of their offices hopeless without suggesting I see even an ent or audiologist. I didn't get the idea to see hearing professionals until I came here to alt.support.tinnitus. I knew nothing of habituation. I came here and got questions answered but I spent effort in trying to get heard by the helpful ones above the racket of the flames of OCDs and trolls. I felt then as now that if the helpful ones ignored the silly attacks then a lot more would be accomplished here. But that is usenet. I very much like your stirring up discussions, FP Pleae keep it up. Best Regards, Bruce > > As a newbie into this group, one could easily wander away with the > > impression that since there is no cure for T, why bother to see a [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Best Regards, > Bruce Your experience parallels mine, Bruce, except that my GP freely admitted no tinnitus skills and referred me to an ENT/Audiologist combination. They characterized my tinnitus and ruled-out all known causes. The vast majority of tinnitus victims are untreatable by drug or medical procedure but certainly should take this important first step. When I refer to treatments I include only drugs or procedures, excluding mirror feedback, relaxation therapy, hypnosis, TRT etc., all of which seem to facilitate habituation. I think it would be very helpful to the "newbies" if we regularly initiated a thread starting with a post that listed the known causes of tinnitus and their associated treatments. For those of us (that vast majority) that don't have a treatable form, we should include steps likely to promote habituation as these steps WILL be effective for most. I've observed that 99% of the flame activity here is rooted in the suspicion that medical professionals are mining the group for patients. Whether or not this suspicion is deserved, it is fueled by the professional's signature lines and by links to their own web sites. The sig lines are inconsistent with my understanding of peer support groups. As a result, I have my own approach-approach conflict as I wouldn't want them to leave because their experience is so valuable. Finally, there are few "snake oil" vendors that prey on that "vast majority" who, in the absence of habituation, are ripe for picking. It is incumbent on us to simply call a spade a spade instead of tip-toeing around with responses like "we understand Ginkgo works for some" when in fact it has the same success rate as placebo. I feel both sorrow and frustration when I see newbies jumping from one concoction to the next while knowing they are only postponing the acceptance necessary to habituation. Bill "Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: >The sig lines are inconsistent >with my understanding of peer support groups. I don't see why a.s.t. should be restricted to "peers." In any case, it obviously isn't. And given that, i think it's the right thing to do to explain any professional "conflict" in your sig line, including with a link.  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > "Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > obviously isn't. And given that, i think it's the right thing to do to explain > any professional "conflict" in your sig line, including with a link. Hi Jim, Your post properly addresses my comment suggesting that this was a peer support group. You snipped my observation that 99% of the flames were rooted in the feeling of some [the flamers] that professionals are mining for patients. If I interpret your post correctly, sig lines are useful for identifying professionals which will, in turn, add weight to their comments. If this is what you mean, then, the question becomes simply: Is it worth it considering we are not going to change the root-cause perception? It's a trade-off and I suggest a compromise: With the ATA's cooperation, the information contained in the professional's links could be posted on the ATA's site and newbies pointed there instead. By posting one's credentials without commercial link everyone wins. Does this make sense to you? Bill > If I interpret your post correctly, sig lines are useful for >identifying professionals which will, in turn, add weight to their comments. I don't see it quite this way. I like to see sig lines so I know the basis of the authority or, more importantly, the bias of the poster, commercial or other. Susan "Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: >> "Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >rooted in the feeling of some [the flamers] that professionals are mining >for patients. Well, i began to address only the "peer" issue and had delected the rest of your post before I got motivated to blather on. >If I interpret your post correctly, sig lines are useful for >identifying professionals which will, in turn, add weight to their comments. That's not what i meant. Mostly, I was referring to the the fact that it is proper for professionals to identify themselves as such and to make information about their professional activities available to others in the group so that any conflicts of interest can be disclosed and considered. I would think more cynically about a masker recommended by a masker salesman than I might about one recommended by a researcher, for instance. But yes, the information could also help determine whether someone is trained in an area they offer opinions on. It also could have the opposite effect on Usenet, where professionals are often ridiculed. >If this is what you mean, then, the question becomes simply: Is it worth it >considering we are not going to change the root-cause perception? It's a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Does this make sense to you? Not really. A moderated website could be organized that way, but this is an unmoderated Usenet newsgroup. Most people don't want rules. That's why they are here. >Bill SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG <snip> >Most people don't want rules. That's why they are here. Speak for yourself, Jim. I don't like the flame wars and have done my best to stop them. Frankly, your help would have been appreciated. Likewise, for the most part I go along with the 'rule' regarding not participating in them, as do you. "Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: ><snip> >>Most people don't want rules. That's why they are here. >> >Speak for yourself, Jim. That what's I think: that people on Usenet aren't likely to submit to a bunch of rules such as the one you suggested. If they were, they'd be elsewhere. > I don't like the flame wars and have done my best >to stop them. Frankly, your help would have been appreciated. How did i not help? >Likewise, >for the most part I go along with the 'rule' regarding not participating in >them, as do you. It's a great rule. But even it fails to do the job if enough people won't follow it. The idea of limiting professionals' ability to post freely about their own activities related to tinnitus and their commercial interests in it seems to me to be a mistake. I'd guess that many professionals would refuse to go along. I would. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >I've observed that 99% of the flame activity here is rooted in the suspicion >that medical professionals are mining the group for patients. I have to disagree. Once the flames began, that's a charge that got leveled often, but the flame wars themselves truly center around the characters and behavior of those involved. Without those elements, no flames, as we've proved here recently. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Susan You are right, Susan, when you say "Once the flames began" but I still say the root cause is in the perception. Let me expand on my own perception: Having no medical credentials (I hold a BSEEE) I posted my own theories a few years back. I reasoned that the T sound might be caused by some harmonic oscillations in the brain. Even though it was simply a theory, it was vigorously refuted by professions who post to this group despite the fact that they could not themselves provide any concrete evidence to the contrary. In fact, if they could, we wouldn't be constantly debating the cause. Just imagine how I felt then. Subsequently, PET studies indicated unusual electrical activity in the auditory cortex which to some (very small) extent strengthens my theory. I don't claim I know the cause, but this was a case where my theory was as good as theirs but they used their credential to humiliate me. >Having no medical credentials (I hold a BSEEE) I posted my own theories a >few years back. I reasoned that the T sound might be caused by some [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >this was a case where my theory was as good as theirs but they used their >credential to humiliate me. .................. I don't remember the incident, nor do I recall if I was one of the professionals "who used their credentials to humiliate [you]." But let me say two things. First of all cyberspace is - at best - a two dimensional representation of a three dimensional world. It is relatively easy to convey one's opinions in cvyberspace. But one's ability to effectively convey one's *feelings* are markedly restricted by one's writing prowess. In my opinion, in cyberspace it is of the utmost importance that both the "conveyor" and the "conveyee" keep that in mind at all times - else the potential for misunderstanding and miscommunication is almost limitless. I know that have at times fallen a bit short in that category; I respectfully suggest that each of us has. And the second thing is a truism not only in cyberspace, but in all of life. Nobody can humiliate you. Nobody. The only person who can humiliate you ... is you! Why? Because humiliation is a response. Just my opinion. Probably worth about what you are paying for it. smn I guess that doesn't apply to fear of reprisal when it is convenient for you? Just my opinion. Probably worth about what you are paying for it. <snip> The only person who can humiliate you ... is you! Why? Because humiliation is a response. > Just my opinion. Probably worth about what you are paying for it. > > smn Fly's in the face of what my psychology 101 teacher had to say about emotional stimulation and response. They go hand-in-hand, Stephen. You freely admit to being stimulated to respond in anger while rejecting my claim of being stimulated to respond with humiliation. This is one of those rare situations where even a novice like me can tell the cart from horse. The problem is not so much with the response as with the stimulation which, of course, is why I mention the "root cause" of the flame wars. It is SO BOGUS to question a person's response while ignoring the stimulation as to stimulate... well you guessed it. This response. I have no intention of pointing my finger at those who stimulated my humiliation as that would result in another flame war. The honest and introspective among them know what they did and the rest.... what can I say? Bill > They go hand-in-hand, Stephen. You >freely admit to being stimulated to respond in anger while rejecting my >claim of being stimulated to respond with humiliation. This is one of those >rare situations where even a novice like me can tell the cart from horse. I disagree, Bill. If the stimulation caused the response, then it would cause it in everyone. I've never felt humiliated by anyone here (despite some intensive efforts at times) nor can anyone here cause me to rise to anger. Humiliation and anger are dependent upon a lack of emotional self control (or self esteem) on the part of those experiencing them, not those who seek to provoke them. In the exact same situation you described as humiliating to you, someone else might just shake their heads and mutter "what a jerk" about the antagonist and forget about it thereafter. Who cares what someone else thinks of your good ideas, anyway? Why not focus on those who thought they were brilliant and said so, instead of those who dismissed them? Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Susan By definition, stimulation always provokes response. Shaking one's head and muttering "what a jerk" may well be your response to the same stimulation that humiliates me. I have no right to deny you yours, you have no right to deny me mine. When you "disagree" with how I describe my response you impose on a process it is impossible for you to be a part of: Bill's response to a given stimulation. In fact, Susan, it is because neither you nor I can control another's response that we must be careful to not provoke something we will have to live with to our own detriment, like the flame wars for example. Bill > When you "disagree" with how I describe my >response you impose on a process it is impossible for you to be a part of: >Bill's response to a given stimulation. Obviously, it's impossible (and undesirable) for me to control or participate in your process of responding. It's yours, and that's kind of what the whole point of the discussion is, to me. By your reasoning, another person could also blame his inability to keep from responding to flames on the flamers, rather than on his own lack of self control. Just IMO. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Susan Susan, Thank you. Of course. Since as you say we have no control over another's self control, we can avoid flame wars simply by not stimulating them. You are absolutely correct, as am I. If feels SO GOOD to be right for once. :-) Bill >Thank you. Of course. Since as you say we have no control over another's >self control, we can avoid flame wars simply by not stimulating them. You >are absolutely correct, as am I. If feels SO GOOD to be right for once. >:-) ............. Flame wars are caused by inappropriate responses to a.sholes. (I think that's what Susan was saying.) The world is full of a.sholes. And as far as Usenet goes, well, it seems to be a breeding ground for 'em. And all the objecting in the world isn't going to change that. They are here posting - and they will leave any given newsgroup when *they* are good and ready ... not a minute before and certainly not when we ask 'em to. But if there is no posted response to them, then there is no flame war - 'cause it takes a response to make a war. smn > >Thank you. Of course. Since as you say we have no control over another's > >self control, we can avoid flame wars simply by not stimulating them. You [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > smn <no response> >> Flame wars are caused by inappropriate responses to a.sholes. (I >> think that's what Susan was saying.) The world is full of a.sholes. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> smn ><no response> ................. It also helps to be able to recognize who's not a friend ... and who is. smn You are saying that Nagliar does not have to respond as he does, and that the many people trying to embarass him for his past actions actually provoke a "guilt" emotion in him to enable his anger? He would have to have a conscience and be capable of remorse then. It has been well hidden unless there was fear of reprisal in the past. This does not seem possible as he has pushed forward for 6-8 years now on this same quest to put his name in lights as a world famous "whatever he can be". > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Susan >It is SO >BOGUS to question a person's response while ignoring the stimulation as to >stimulate... well you guessed it. This response. ............. It was my opinion. I believed it was spot on when I offered it. I believe it is still spot on. The fact that you think my opinion is "SO BOGUS" - that's your opinion. Please excuse me for not being stimulated to respond. :-) Best to you, Bill. smn > >It is SO > >BOGUS to question a person's response while ignoring the stimulation as to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > smn Salient portions of original post cleverly snipped, I see. LOL Oh Stephen, some things will never change, huh? Bill, you will note that I clearly indicated I was only replying to part of your post. That's what the words "in part" mean! :-) I didn't care to respond to the rest. Now please don't feel humiliated - I just preferred to focus on but one aspect of your incredibly wonderful and insightful post. Best to ya! smn "Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >this was a case where my theory was as good as theirs but they used their >credential to humiliate me. They (I) may have been frustrated by the difficulty of responding to your possibly less than crisply defined idea even though they felt it was off the mark, and that may have caused them--in poor debating form-- to cite their credentials. While your opponent was probably lacking in his ideas and facts and tried to rely on probably debatable professional knowledge, your proper response was to sharpen your idea and continue to discuss it. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu (Jim Chinnis) wrote in part: >"Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >credentials. While your opponent was probably lacking in his ideas and facts >and tried to rely on probably debatable professional knowledge, your proper <<<should read: "debatable professional credentials" >>> >response was to sharpen your idea and continue to discuss it. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG <snip> >While your opponent was probably lacking in his ideas and facts and tried >to rely on probably debatable professional knowledge, your proper r>esponse was to sharpen your idea and continue to discuss it. Jim. The proper response for me was to leave the discussion. This was the proper response because the arrogant person I was debating wouldn't stop trying to humiliate me. You have to know when to hold em, Jim, and know when to fold em. But nice try! Didn't you get the Gestapo email on handling AST problems? > <snip> > >While your opponent was probably lacking in his ideas and facts and tried [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > trying to humiliate me. You have to know when to hold em, Jim, and know > when to fold em. But nice try! whitehouse @bush writes: >Having no medical credentials (I hold a BSEEE) I posted my own theories a >few years back. I reasoned that the T sound might be caused by some >harmonic oscillations in the brain. ........................... Hey, that theory is just as good as anyone elses. I think we should go back to posting theories. There's alot of intelligent people here and it makes for interesting conversation. - jean >....but the flame wars themselves truly center around the characters and > behavior of those involved. Without those elements, no flames, as we've proved > here recently. Pardon the snipping. but I totally agree that the flames wars derive entirely "around the characters and behavior of those involved". And, I add to that, that the focus on sig lines and accusation of trolling for business is an excuse for pre-judged perceptions. PaulS >I've observed that 99% of the flame activity here is rooted in the suspicion >that medical professionals are mining the group for patients. ............. You know, everybody is going to have a different spin on that question. My view is that we are dealing with a population largely frustrated by their condition and largely frustrated by the outcome of treatment (or lack thereof) by the medical community. This same population - rightly or wrongly - holds doctors to a higher standard of Usenet behavior than non-physicians. And when the docs don't live up to that higher standard, the anonymity of Usenet allows the pissants among them to say things that are truly unspeakable. Well, I tend to respond to that kind of crap. The truth be told, I respond to less than 5% of it, but I do respond. It is the response that lends credibility to the outrageous bullshit that has gone on here in the past. I think I'm doing a better job overall - but recently I should a little weakness in that regard. Call it being a jerk - or call it being human. But - like my good friend PaulS has done via e-mail and telephone - at least say it to my face. Anyway, that's my personal take on it. smn > > fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in message > news:<936eaee8.0401240347.2e3d5ab5@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > relaxation therapy, hypnosis, TRT etc., all of which seem to facilitate > habituation. Yeah. Facilitating habituation is the key. Personally I can't say enough for it. I am of the opinion that my own tinnitus racket quieted somewhat after I habituated to a certain degree. When I'm not hanging around groups who discuss tinnitus I go weeks without even being concious of it. No exageration here. I'm about to leave for the Sea of Cortez and being away from the office, my computer and this newsgroup I'll forget I even have tinnitus. > I think it would be very helpful to the "newbies" if we regularly initiated > a thread starting with a post that listed the known causes of tinnitus and > their associated treatments. For those of us (that vast majority) that > don't have a treatable form, we should include steps likely to promote > habituation as these steps WILL be effective for most. Good. I like it. > I've observed that 99% of the flame activity here is rooted in the suspicion > that medical professionals are mining the group for patients. I'm among those who disagree with this assumption. I too believe it is clash of personalities and individual response mechanisms some healthy and some not. > Whether or > not this suspicion is deserved, it is fueled by the professional's signature > lines and by links to their own web sites. The sig lines are inconsistent > with my understanding of peer support groups. As a result, I have my own > approach-approach conflict as I wouldn't want them to leave because their > experience is so valuable. Have you ever personally been solicited by the professionals who frequent ast? I haven't. Not once. Not even a suggestion. But I have gotten a lot of good information from them. That doesn't say that I think they all have their 'marbles' intact. As we put up with less than healthy personalities from laymen so can we from someone in health care. > Finally, there are few "snake oil" vendors that prey on that "vast majority" > who, in the absence of habituation, are ripe for picking. It is incumbent [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Bill Yeah agreed. Don't think we need to turn the spade into a club, either. There are well intentioned people who believe that Dumbo's feather was what allowed the elephant to fly. That doesn't make them underhanded or sneaky, just wrong. Bruce >brucemeyerz@yahoo.com writes: >Have you ever personally been solicited by the professionals >who frequent ast? I haven't. Not once. Not even a suggestion. .................dittos >. I'm about to leave for the Sea of >Cortez ...............Im stranded in the Sea of Deep Freeze........Hope its warm where your going. Have fun. - jean > >brucemeyerz@yahoo.com writes: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > - jean It is unfair for me to tell you that I was solicited by a medical professional from this group because doing so, without naming that individual, casts a shadow on every professional who provides advice and support here. Still, Bruce's question, coupled with these replies, creates the false impression that this sort of thing simply doesn't happen. Perhaps it doesn't happen now, but it happened to me when I first came to ast shortly after the onset of my tinnitus. The solicitation occurred just weeks into my tinnitus at a time when I was particularly vulnerable. I'll describe the treatment simply as expensive. During the course of conversations leading to the offer, no mention was made of the 90% chance that I could habituate on my own. At first, I viewed that professional's comforting words and willingness to call me on his/her own dime as a remarkable testimony to his/her compassion. Some months later, when I had learned the techniques of habituation here and elsewhere on the 'net, I realize I had been taken advantage of during a very vulnerable time. I didn't want to tell you this, and have refrained from doing so all these years because I didn't want to fan the flames. Let me assure you that I'm not the only one who entertained a solicitation. It is this personal experience that helps me understand the outrage of certain flamers. Imagine my outrage had I spent the money only to realize later that I probably didn't need to. This is why I plead with the professionals to drop their sig lines. Bill >It is unfair for me to tell you that I was solicited by a medical >professional from this group because doing so, without naming that [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Bill ................ Well, I want to know who it is! Bill, your post does cast a cloud over all the professionals who visit this site. If a professional read your posts and then contacted you offering his or her services for a fee, then that is way way over the line. Who did it? smn Gee...I wonder? Open your case and allow free posting of your medical info. > Well, I want to know who it is! > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > smn "Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: >> >brucemeyerz@yahoo.com writes: >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >Bill "This is why I plead with the professionals to drop their sig lines." Seems to me its a big argument for professionals to keep their sig lines and to be very up-front about their professional involvement. It also seems that anyone solicited by a medical professional in this group should make the approach known to others here. We need more info, not less. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG <snip> > We need more info, not less. Of course everyone wants more information, Jim. If I named the professional who called to offer treatment and even posted an image of that person's telephone records, the person would simply claim to have called to offer emotional support and that during the conversation I had inquired about treatment. At best, naming that individual would lead to a pissing contest with no apparent winner. At worst, the person would bring a defamation action against me and I would have no defense beyond my own recollection. I might be truthful but I would probably lose. Frankly, I'm surprised there is any question that solicitation has taken place, if not in the form of a call for services then in the form of promoting a technique one is uniquely qualified to perform in conjunction with a link to a one's commercial site. For example, I promote visits to ENTs to rule out known causes of tinnitus. There are ENTs in every major city. Even if I were an ENT and identified myself as such, that post could hardly be construed as a solicitation. On the other hand, if I promote EERIE WAX to a newbie and there are only a couple of places to buy it, and I'm one of them, then I have solicited that newbie. This would be true even though EERIE WAX is every bit as effective as a placebo in promoting spontaneous habituation. :-) Some of what has been promoted here is sufficiently unique as to fall into the latter category. You might argue that we should expect newbies to know greed from compassion but that certainly wasn't my situation during those first few months with tinnitus. Newbies need to know up front that there is a 90% chance they will habituate without spending a dime and given information that will speed-up that process. For the benefit of the remaining 10%, there should be a link to the ATA site and that site should include the results of valid tests (or the absence of thereof) of the effectiveness of any treatments mentioned. Bill "Bush Lied" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in part: >Some of what has been promoted here is sufficiently unique as to fall into >the latter category. You might argue that we should expect newbies to know [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Bill Hi Bill, I hear you but I disagree about the medium we are dealing with here. I think that internet venues could be places where those with tinnitus can talk with other people like themselves, find links to places like the ATA, and also hear recommendations and advice from those in the business of treating tinnitus patients. The last category is less troublesome if the service providers carefully identify themselves as such and then provide links to their facilities/services. In that case, everybody knows that they take "customers" and that their advice should be evaluated in that light. What is really crummy is a person identified as bob@nowhere.abc raves about a treatment and *doesn't* disclose that he is one of few providers of it. Undoubtedly, we get a lot of that here. At least in those cases, the anonymity is a warning to some. When people get hit with something like intrusive tinnitus there is no question but that they are vulnerable to all sorts of sales pitches, both for helpful and worthless things. But I sure don't think that trying to impose a prohibition on disclosures (such as your suggestion of linking only to academic credentials) makes sense. Regulation of information is a bad road to choose, in my opinion. I'd rather know as much as possible about the people I'm sharing my thoughts with, and I'd like to know when someone is selling something before I've opened up to them in private communications. I agree with your comments about lawsuits, etc. And in fact, I don't think you *should* name people who approached you, because you would be doing so anonymously, which is hardly fair. However, a timely post to the newsgroup detailing your experience seems on-topic and fair, IMO. Yes, it might place all professionals in a bad light, but that--to me--seems secondary to the importance of alerting other newbies to the fact that a professional may be marketing to newcomers. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG <snip> However, a timely post to the newsgroup > detailing your experience seems on-topic and fair, IMO. Yes, it might place > all professionals in a bad light, but that--to me--seems secondary to the > importance of alerting other newbies to the fact that a professional may be > marketing to newcomers. It is only fair that I acknowledge this fact: As you old timers will recall, TRT was promoted and debated here relentlessly. From these debates, and from research elsewhere on the 'net, I concluded that is was 90% counseling and 10% masking. I applied the principles to myself, substituting an intelligent sound source (public radio) for the noise generator. Although I think I would have habituated my tinnitus without this information, I do think it helped speed that process along. In that respect, I was helped by the promotion of a tinnitus remediation technique. It was disappointing to read Bigjon's response to the thread Jean started yesterday that begins with "Attention Newbies:....". So many of us have valuable experiences to contribute and this sort of thread furthers our goal. We are alt.support.tinnitus and a thread of this sort should not be fouled. What do you think, everyone, shouldn't we be busy building on what Jean started? And yes, I've held her exotic dancing apparel in my hands. :-) >Bush Lied" writes: >houldn't we be busy building on what >Jean started? And yes, I've held her exotic dancing apparel in my hands. >:-) .......................... A gift from Bill ;) - jean > At worst, the person would bring a defamation >action against me and I would have no defense beyond my own recollection. And you'd have my corroborative recollection that you told me about it years ago. FWIW. Susan History repeats itself on AST Who will the next victim be? > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Susan Well if the T is due to a tumor, then yes, its dangerous. But the majority of the tinnitus are harmless. But, still worth taking an MRI, if the insurance covers. MRIs I suppose are cheaper outside the US. These are some of the quotes from some of the well known GP/ENTs I went to (These are well ranked and are from top schools all over the world. docinfo.org will vouch for that) 1st doctor - "You blew your nose too hard and pulled the infection into the eustachian tube. give it 6 months. The eustachian tube is not something you clean with a spade or shovel". - what a joke, my T is still there and not at all related to my blowing my nose hard. Half the population would have had T, if this is the case. I have seen some people on the NYC subways blowing so hard, to even give you a scare at times! 2nd doctor. "If the noise is bothering you, stuff cotton in your nose". - What, are you kidding! 3rd docor - Same as #2 above 4th doctor - (top ENT authorised by ATA). "Listen, your audiogram reports have come out normal, dont worry, your T will go in 6 months, the hair cells (steriocelia) have been inflammed and it will take time to heal", - Its over a year now, doc. 5th doctor - "this is due to sinus allergy, take Allegra or zyrtec", - I have never had allergy all my life, still took the medicines, no luck. Expected this. ha! ha! 6th doctor- (resident at the hospital ER), " I do not know what it is, pls see your GP in the morning, if you are not sleeping, we cannot do much". What! this is the ER, you are the experts. 6th doctor- "Take Ginko and prednisone, it will go away in a week" - No comments. Ok, there were more.. But, hey this is the USA. I thought, they just surgically attached a hand bitten off by a shark to the boy in florida. Anyway, I am following "Andrew Weils" eastern medical philosphy anymore. No more driving motorcycles. I have no faith going into that ER again for a brain surgery!. > As a newbie into this group, one could easily wander away with the > impression that since there is no cure for T, why bother to see a > doctor anyway? Please allow me to suggest that this is a dangerous > impression. > > FP I used to think that the doctors in 'socialist' China are pretty random people, but did not know they are equally random in the capitalist USA. FP ======================== > Well if the T is due to a tumor, then yes, its dangerous. But the > majority of the tinnitus are harmless. But, still worth taking an MRI, [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > > > FP I met a GP who suffered from tinnitus *herself* about a year ago. I have just gone through the treatment which she received. She was 'cured'. My T is about 3 months old. Hers at that time was a fresh one. Still i have not given up. The treatment i have just gone through includes injecting 100 vitamin B1 into my body. It has had *some* improvement. FP =============================== > Well if the T is due to a tumor, then yes, its dangerous. But the > majority of the tinnitus are harmless. But, still worth taking an MRI, [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > > > FP There are a lot of ENT specialists here too, who have T from a long time. When I went to one of the meetings held by Dhyan Cassie (a well known ATA person), I met a lot of folks, who had interesting stories to tell. One of them was being treated by an ENT who was also having T, but the treatment was xanax (which for sure i am not going to take). So my conclusion is, you will be better understood and tolerated by a ENT with T, but the end-result is pretty much the same. Can someone shut-off a misfiring neuron with something such as lidocaine (or lignocaine). One of the best ENT's i met told me this: "this neuron will eventually die, and thats when the noise might go away". With my zero medical background, I hope thats true. But, i seriously doubt T has anything to do with kidneys, or can be cured by vitamins. that might be sheer luck. BTW, fewer people in developing countries develop T. My reasoning is because of their better immune systems and the body well adapting to various noise levels. just my guess. > I met a GP who suffered from tinnitus *herself* about a year ago. I > have just gone through the treatment which she received. She was [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > > > > > FP > There are a lot of ENT specialists here too, who have T from a long time. When > I went to one of the meetings held by Dhyan Cassie (a well known ATA person), I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > understood and tolerated by a ENT with T, but the end-result is pretty much the > same. I think if you had gone to an experience ENT during the early stage, say the first 15 days after T is discovered, your chances of getting cured is quite great. In China, the method is chilation. My T is almost 4 months old. I just went through a programs of herbs and chilation. Now, i am able to sleep without anti-anxiety drugs but with only some OTC herb pills. Lately, i have been looking into chloride poisoning in my drug regimen. Can someone shut-off a misfiring neuron with something such as lidocaine > (or lignocaine). It depends on the Cause. If the cause is some dramatic experience or drug interaction, or poor blood circulation, they could be cured. That is to say, if the cause were reversible, it could be cured. But if the inner ear had been destroyed, there would not be a cure but only a treatment. One of the best ENT's i met told me this: "this neuron will > eventually die, and thats when the noise might go away". With my zero medical > background, I hope thats true. > But, i seriously doubt T has anything to do with kidneys, or can be cured by > vitamins. that might be sheer luck. Poor blood circulation has a lot to do with a poor kidney. But invigorating the kidney takes a long time and a lot of skill. Rest and exercise...and time seem to be the best. > BTW, fewer people in developing countries develop T. My doctor told me there are many in China. But people suffer from T in various degrees. Some are quite severe while others may just go away or go down in intensity over time. My reasoning is because of > their better immune systems and the body well adapting to various noise levels. > just my guess. They are less nervous in going for exams, in going for commission production, etc.. But don;t count on your assumption. Most T sufferers in China simply put on ESTAZOPAM. They have no ATIVAN or Xanax. I was once on ATIVAN for a couple of months. I am glad that my herbalist doctor helped me get rid of it. It is a drug! Only drug rehabitation centres and mental hospitals in China are allowed to prescribe ATIVAN. But just to be fair, during the initial maddening stage, ATIVAN did help tame the beast. And then it itself became a 'silent' beast hidden in the backyard. FP > > I met a GP who suffered from tinnitus *herself* about a year ago. I > > have just gone through the treatment which she received. She was [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > > > > > > > FP > Well if the T is due to a tumor, then yes, its dangerous. But the > majority of the tinnitus are harmless. Harmless???? My Lord! T is the most devasting thing i have ever had! I would rather lose an arm or a leg than to have to put up with my initial stage of T intensity. It is more tolerable now. Rdg., FP ===================================== But, still worth taking an MRI, > if the insurance covers. MRIs I suppose are cheaper outside the US. > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > > > FP To help confirm that a very easy medical reason is not behind the tinnitus, and to confirm that no medical procedures are necessary. To help look after possible infections in the ear, making sure you remind the doctor not to use medications that may worsen or cause tinnitus. Then you would be best seeing fairies at the bottom of the garden for any other tinnitus treatment. |
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