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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / December 2003Necessary for a cure?
Let me define a "cure" as follows: A cure is a treatment protocol at the conclusion of which a person's tinnitus cannot be detected by that person upon purposely listening for it in that person's normal auditory environment. Given that definition, I would like people's opinions regarding whether or not in a general sense (i.e, no particular individual case) it is *necessary* to identify the cause of the tinnitus in order to find a cure. smn > Let me define a "cure" as follows: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > smn I don't think it would be absolutely necessary but I do think it would be helpful. For example, a person might be taking a lot of aspirin every day and the cure for their tinnitus might be as simple as quitting aspirin. In that case, knowing the cause is necessary to the cure. >> Let me define a "cure" as follows: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >and the cure for their tinnitus might be as simple as quitting aspirin. In >that case, knowing the cause is necessary to the cure. .................. Thanks, Bob. But, that's why I was trying to get away of the concept of an "individual case." I'm taking about a universal cure -- curing TINNITUS. Do you think that all of the causes of tinnitus must be found and addressed before we can have a universal cure. smn > >> Let me define a "cure" as follows: > >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > smn I'm thinking you want to narrow the discussion to objective tinnitus, right? Otherwise a universal cure would be unlikely. Then if we eliminate temporary objective tinnitus caused by ototoxic substances such as in my example, we are left with a condition that might or might not have a universal cure. Yes, a universal cure might be found but that cure might be as simple as eliminating a cause. This has happened time-and-time again as we have come to understand the effects of various elements (most notably heavy metals) on our well being. >I'm thinking you want to narrow the discussion to objective tinnitus, right? ............... No. I'm takling about ALL tinnitus - regadrless of cause. .................. >Otherwise a universal cure would be unlikely. ................. A challenge - yes. Impossible - no. To find a universal cure, do you think it would be necessary to find and address all causes? smn When your gallbladder becomes defective and a surgeon cuts it our successfully they call that a "cure" but the cause for the defective gallbladder may not be known or even cared about. An aspirin can "cure" a headache but do we need to know what caused the headache in the first place? Many things can be "cured" from a personal success view without knowledge of the root cause(s). > >I'm thinking you want to narrow the discussion to objective tinnitus, right? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > smn > >I'm thinking you want to narrow the discussion to objective tinnitus, right? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > smn Not necessarily. Since you include all forms of objective and subjective tinnitus, I just think a *universal" (singular) cure is very unlikely. Besides, there are cures for some of these now but these aren't universal. I think I've deviated from your point. No, I don't think it is necessary to address all causes but in some cases it is necessary to address the cause, as in my example. Stephen Nagler <nagler@tinn.com> wrote in part: >Let me define a "cure" as follows: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >it is *necessary* to identify the cause of the tinnitus in order to >find a cure. It's certainly not a logical requirement. Sometimes things get cures before we understand how they are caused. There are a few cures for a few types of tinnitus where we do understand (to a degree) the causes. Since we do not yet understand the cause(s) of most tinnitus and because we do not yet have a cure(s) for most tinnitus, we don't yet know for sure if we will have to find the cause before we can figure out a cure--for most tinnitus.  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >Since we do not yet understand the cause(s) of most tinnitus and because we do >not yet have a cure(s) for most tinnitus, we don't yet know for sure if we >will have to find the cause before we can figure out a cure--for most >tinnitus. ............... What's yer best guess, Jim? smn Stephen Nagler <nagler@tinn.com> wrote in part: >>Since we do not yet understand the cause(s) of most tinnitus and because we do >>not yet have a cure(s) for most tinnitus, we don't yet know for sure if we >>will have to find the cause before we can figure out a cure--for most >>tinnitus. >What's yer best guess, Jim? It's only a guess, but I think we will have a near-cure for typical tinnitus before we truly understand its cause in any detail. I think we *might* even have a clear-cut cure. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >It's only a guess, but I think we will have a near-cure for typical tinnitus >before we truly understand its cause in any detail. I think we *might* even >have a clear-cut cure. .............. So do I. And that is the point I was trying to make in another thread when in response to FP's comment "In order to find the cure, one has to know the cause," I asked, "Why?" I believe that *all* tinnitus - regardless of cause - has what has been referred to by Shulman as a "Final Common Pathway." Identify that pathway and figure out a way to ablate, alter, or impact it ... and you've got the makings of a universal cure. A real challenge. But not impossible, in my opinion. smn > >It's only a guess, but I think we will have a near-cure for typical tinnitus > >before we truly understand its cause in any detail. I think we *might* even [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > smn Facinating concept this "Final Common Pathway". Any encouraging efforts in mapping out such a pathway? As Bob suggested, to me it doesn't seem logical that it would include objective tinnitus. Bruce PS: Don't let PaulS hear of the "Final Common Pathway" phrase. He'll attribute it to a socio-religious movement. >Facinating concept this "Final Common Pathway". >Any encouraging efforts in mapping out such a pathway? ............... Well at least *in part* that's what all this PET and fMRI work is about. smn > >It's only a guess, but I think we will have a near-cure for typical tinnitus > >before we truly understand its cause in any detail. I think we *might* even [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that pathway and figure out a way to ablate, alter, or impact it ... > and you've got the makings of a universal cure. In morderne science we tend to want to fully understand the mecanisms we are dealing with. Finding a cure without knowing what that cure really is doing is not optimal is it ? The indian Shamans had thier own stories about how they cure people . . . perhaps because they didn't know what it was excactly about the remedies that helped. It might not be nessecery to fully understant the mecanisms of tinnitus to cure it by accident but once we know it in dept a cure is more relaiable to come. I might win 4 million dollars one day but perhaps building up my own company in some business is a better way to become a millionair. >In morderne science we tend to want to fully understand the mecanisms we are >dealing with. >Finding a cure without knowing what that cure really is doing is not optimal >is it ? .................... Two observations: 1. Who cares if a cure is "optimal?" Beggars can't be choosers ... and right now tinnitus sufferers are begging for a cure. If it's not optimal, I'll worry about that later. 2. What I described in a treatment that impacts the Final Common Pathway does indeed say what it is really doing. If "all roads lead to Rome" but before they get there the roads all merge into one, I can prevent anybody from getting to Rome by blowing up that last single merged road - the hell with each person's city of origin and the all roads leading from them. Our goal is to prevent folks from getting to Rome. Seems appropriarte to me to put at least *some* effort into addressing the issue of the merged road rather than focusing on cities of origin. smn > >In morderne science we tend to want to fully understand the mecanisms we are > >dealing with. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > addressing the issue of the merged road rather than focusing on cities > of origin. But is it plausible that a cure will come before we understand the problem ? Which road will you choose from a citie ? . . . if there is a 1000 roads will you then pick them by random and hope it is not the last one that leads to rome. Look at cancer research . . . doctors have got a better understanding of it and the tretment success is a lot higher then 15 years ago. >But is it plausible that a cure will come before we understand the problem ? ....................... I think the problem is not that some sort of phantom auditory signal is produced from somewhere - or even from many somewheres. I think rather that the problem is that we *detect* it. If you never heard your tinnitus in the first place, JB, I bet you'd never know you had it, right? I'm just suggesting that we consider the detection rather than the production. I also think it might be easier to understand the problem of detection rather than production. By the way, I'm not talking at all about habituation, which is not being aware of tinnitus unless you try tio hear it. I'm talking instead about the inability to detect the tinnitus upon purposely listening for it - a cure. ................ >Which road will you choose from a citie ? . . . if there is a 1000 roads >will you then pick them by random and hope it is not the last one that leads >to rome. .............. It doesn't matter which road leads from a city if all roads leading to Rome merge into one at some point. The way I see it, if you want to prevent folk from getting to Rome, it makes more sense to block them along the only road that enters Rome rather than blocking them along all the roads that lead from their many points of origin. Just a thought. smn > >But is it plausible that a cure will come before we understand the problem ? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > unless you try tio hear it. I'm talking instead about the inability > to detect the tinnitus upon purposely listening for it - a cure. If I look back about 15 years I was playing drums in bands and had tinnitus often but not all the time. Typically after gigs but noone was talking about tinnitus and it was just there . . . it never bothered me and I could even have fun listning too it before I fell a sleep at night but never had problems faling asleep. But sometimes in the 90'ies the focus on tinnitus among muscians was brought up and everyone was told that it was a major problem that could ruin your life and make people commit suiside and somehow I got constant tinnitus shortly after and it botherede me. I got afraid of what I have enjoyed for a lot of years . . . loud music/sound, cause I was told that it was bad for my ears and my quality of life. > >In morderne science we tend to want to fully understand the mecanisms we are > >dealing with. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > smn To take your "all roads lead to Rome" analogy further. What if that final road is a mega highway that not only carries people going to Rome, but also has the main water line running parallel as well as the main electrical line. So by blowing up or blocking the road, we also eliminate both the water and electricity to the city. Yes we can eliminate the entry of people to Rome, but we also adversely affect the people who are already in Rome. In that case, it may be far better to address the cities of origin rather than the one road. HNG >In that case, it may be far better to address the cities of origin rather >than the one road. This is kind of my thinking. I think the interconnections, delicacy of the landscape and complexity of the route will make that "final pathway" type of cure highly unlikely. Generally speaking, I find talks of "cure" for chronic condtions to be unrealistic (purely my opinion). Searching for that type of cure will surely yield interesting information about brain functions, and insight that can lead to better treatments, though. Susan >To take your "all roads lead to Rome" analogy further. What if that final >road is a mega highway that not only carries people going to Rome, but also >has the main water line running parallel as well as the main electrical >line. So by blowing up or blocking the road, we also eliminate both the >water and electricity to the city. Yes we can eliminate the entry of people >to Rome, but we also adversely affect the people who are already in Rome. ............... Indeed that is the case, which is why we will need pinpoint accuracy if and/or when this approach is to be considered. .................. >In that case, it may be far better to address the cities of origin rather >than the one road. .................... It may, Howard. I am not by any means advocating ignoring the source of the tinnitus. But I do not wish to minimize the value to looking a the central pathways either. Moreover, my sense is that even if the source(s) of the tinnitus can at some point be effectively addressed, in-and-of itself that may not provide the ultimate solution we seek, since almost certainly the central pathways reinforce each other in some sort of postitive feedback loop, a loop that may be totally independent of the periphery. smn > > >In morderne science we tend to want to fully understand the mecanisms we > are [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > HNG Hail Ceasar! I'll bet that clamping off the temporal lobes will do the job. If not then lets snip out the hippocampus. Bruce >Hail Ceasar! >I'll bet that clamping off the temporal lobes will do the job. >If not then lets snip out the hippocampus. > >Bruce Hey guys: Does anybody have any idea what this Trans Cranial Magnetic treatment setup looks like ? -- and at what power levels it operates ? All of my ideas look like Rube Goldberg comic images. Could it actually be a REAL cure ??? Enjoy the holidays, Bob D. Long Island, NY bdimarco@optonline.net It will never be a real cure for you as long as you display your ignorance about everything you don't understand. > >Hail Ceasar! > >I'll bet that clamping off the temporal lobes will do the job. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Long Island, NY > bdimarco@optonline.net > Stephen Nagler <nagler@tinn.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > will have to find the cause before we can figure out a cure--for most > tinnitus. Well said. Some of the British expats in Hong Kong have their various kinds of illnessese cured after living under the sun for a while. Those illnesses might have been either directly or indirectly *caused* by the miserable weather in England during the winder time. Rdg., FP ================================ >> Stephen Nagler <nagler@tinn.com> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Those illnesses might have been either directly or indirectly *caused* >by the miserable weather in England during the winder time. And such weather never exists anywhere else? :) new to the NG, not really new to tinnitus, or T as it appears to be called. I've had it for a number of years, but it has only recently become annoying. Using Cool Edit Pro I *think* it's a 13k tone in my right ear. Most possibly caused by riding my motorcycle and possibly by my previous employment. Reading here tells me there isn't a real > Let me define a "cure" as follows: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it is *necessary* to identify the cause of the tinnitus in order to > find a cure. You don't need the cause for headace to take painkilling pill. You don't need the cause for a broken leg to heal it. You don't have to trust a cure . . . if it works it will help you anyway . . . if you have to belive - it is not a cure. On T-Gone thay have 7 classes of remedies. One for 7 diferent causes. Does anyone really know for 100% certainty what the excact mecanism of tinnitus is ?? . . . . you might know it was caused by an ear fection or loud noise but is it the excact same internal disorder that cause every tinnitus. One could think that every tinnitus has the excact same internal origin in every case. if you rub the palm of you hand against your trouses for 5 sec. you will feel tinnitus in you hand for a short moment after. Don't rub it more that 8 hours a day . . . it might get permanent. >On T-Gone thay have 7 classes of remedies. One for 7 diferent causes. ................. The manufacturers of EERIE Wax say that there is one class of remedy, not seven classes. Why believe the proponents of T-Gone over the proponents of EERIE Wax -- especially when the two products are equally effective. smn Stephen I agree. Remove the SENSUAL facet to tinnitus completely and you are cured. You might still HAVE tinnitus, "it's there" you just don't know this. >Stephen I agree. Remove the SENSUAL facet to tinnitus completely and you are >cured. You might still HAVE tinnitus, "it's there" you just don't know this. ............. Thanks, William. I'm not really sure of the proper terminology - but if you cannot hear it upon hard listening (what I think you are calling the "SENSUAL facet"), then in my mind you don't have it! Hope all is well for you across The Pond this holiday season. smn > I'm not really sure of the proper terminology - but if you cannot hear > it upon hard listening (what I think you are calling the "SENSUAL > facet"), then in my mind you don't have it! Of cause you don't. If you can't feel pain there is no pain. >> I'm not really sure of the proper terminology - but if you cannot hear >> it upon hard listening (what I think you are calling the "SENSUAL [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >If you can't feel pain there is no pain. ................ ... because pain - like tinnitus - is a symptom. And if you are not consciously aware of a symptom -- you don't have it! In medicine we talk about diseases, physical signs, and symptoms. Clearly, anybody who has ever had chickenpox in his or her youth understands the concept of "disease." Chickenpox is an infectious disease. And whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have chickenpox - if you have chickenpox, you have chickenpox. Chickenpox causes a rash. A rash is a physical finding. Once again, whether or not you are consciously aware of your rash - if you have a rash, you have a rash. Now the rash itches. Itching is a symptom. Symptoms are special in that in order to have a symptom, you must be consciously aware of that symptom. Tell me, if you are not aware of the fact that you are itching, do you have an itch? The answer is no. You have the disease - chickenpox. You have the physical finding - the rash. But you only have an itch if you are aware of it. Let's talk about the environmental noise that is probably the most common cause of tinnitus. Whether or not you're consciously aware that you've been exposed to excessive noise, if you've been exposed to noise, you've been exposed to noise. And guess what it causes - damaged hair cells in the cochlea. Damaged hair cells are a physical sign; you could see them if there were a powerful magnifying instrument small enough to reach the depths of the cochlea - and do it safely. When hair cells are damaged by noise, they send out a signal pattern that is believed by many to be the origin of tinnitus, which - like the itch of chickenpox - is a symptom. Whether or not you are consciously aware of the disease (environmental noise), and whether or not you are consciously aware of the physical sign (damaged hair cells) - if you have it, you have it. But tinnitus is a symptom. And therefore you only have tinnitus when you are consciously aware of tinnitus. Something to think about. smn The "black and white" works for your analogy only when it's convenient to you. When you stood accused of your transgressions in the past you then disagreed with the "black or white" principal and brought in the grey zones in order to slink your disgusting way out. You lied in the past and are probably lying again. Not to be trusted ever again. > >> I'm not really sure of the proper terminology - but if you cannot hear > >> it upon hard listening (what I think you are calling the "SENSUAL [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > smn >Given that definition, I would like people's opinions regarding>whether or not in a general sense (i.e, no particular individual case)>it is *necessary* to identify the cause of the tinnitus in order to >find a cure. ............................ I think we'd like to find a cause in order to justify the fact that it is a physical ailment rather than a psyco-somatic one. Finding the cause could also prevent other people from getting it. Not knowing the cause creates alot of frustration especially in the first year or so. Maybe in their search for a cause they will stumble on a cure. Or vice versa. Regardless - if they don't need to identify the cause in order to find the cure - we'll take it :) - jean > Let me define a "cure" as follows: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it is *necessary* to identify the cause of the tinnitus in order to > find a cure. It would *help* immensely if the cause of one's T is located. For example, I am moving towards the direction by way of 'cure and treatment' that my T was caused by the anxiety and tension in my inner mind at this 'menopausing point' in my life. And this kind of anxiety and tension has to be 'controlled' or 'treated' for the time being. Once my life surroundings and opportunities are altered, things may take a turn and that amount of anxiety and tension will go off. For example, prior to this uninvited T's arrival, I used to be a very ambitious person in terms of career achievement. But this T experience has been a great awakening to me! I am a born again person. I have realized how finite we are. Many things that used to be very important to me are no longer important any more. I don't really care about position and fame any more. I would be more than happy doing a couple of manual jobs and earn a down to earth living, and in particular help those who are in need of our help. MAY THE LORD BE THE WITNESS OF WHAT I HAVE SAID! FP FP ============================ > smn > > Let me define a "cure" as follows: > > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > > > smn For example if I have a gastric ulcer all my life, but was not aware of its prescence I would not suffer from Gastric Ulcer even 0.5% >It would *help* immensely if the cause of one's T is located. For >example, I am moving towards the direction by way of 'cure and >treatment' that my T was caused by the anxiety and tension in my inner >mind at this 'menopausing point' in my life. And this kind of anxiety >and tension has to be 'controlled' or 'treated' for the time being. The hormonal changes of female menopause often cause tinnitus, anecdotally speaking, I've recently learned. So are anxiety adn tension for some. Treat the hormonal stuff, and the T goes, but the HRT isn't without risks. Susan "Susan " <sufein@aol.comnospam> wrote in message > The hormonal changes of female menopause often cause tinnitus, I can attest to that! My wife went through menopause and I got tinnitus :-( PaulS > "Susan " <sufein@aol.comnospam> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > PaulS LOL:-))))) Thanks for making me laugh out loud:-)))) Susanne I guess I don't know what your talking about, but if you ever come up with a cure let me know. Life is a living hell for people with serious life long tinnitus. > Let me define a "cure" as follows: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > smn > I guess I don't know what your talking about, but if you ever come up with a > cure let me know. Life is a living hell for people with serious life long > tinnitus. Learn to have a good sleep to begin with. Another way is visiting several doctors and *make up your own mind* on what to take or what to discard. Try other mode of medical thinking. Are there some Tibetan doctors around in your area? Herbalist? acupuncturists? Or the ones from whom your friends have used and derived value. BUT TAKE YOUR TIME! TINNITUS IS A VERY NAUGHTY ENTITY. THE MORE YOU FOCUS ON IT, THE MORE IT COMES TO BOTHER YOU. Are you living in a rainy or sunny area? Perhaps a move to a sunny area can help you somewhat. Re-arrange the bed so that your head is facing southern pole while your feet pointing at the nothern. TRY BUT TAKE YOUR TIME! FP ========================================== > > Let me define a "cure" as follows: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > smn >I guess I don't know what your talking about, ................. I was just offering my views on the concept of "cure" and posing a question ................. >but if you ever come up with a >cure let me know. .................... Hey, if anybody comes up with a universal cure for tinnitus - the Nobel Prize Committee will let folks know quickly enought! :-) ...................... > Life is a living hell for people with serious life long >tinnitus. ....................... Tinnitus can be a real challenge -- but there are several legitimate approaches that, while short of a cure, go a long way towards providing considerable relief. One of the challenges, then, may be in finding the path best suited to you. Sincere good wishes in your search! smn Thanks, smn, and FP, I gather that you believe I should work harder at understanding my condition. I do try but the noise continues, it is relentless. In my home I do try to quiet the electronics as much as possible. My computer hums at a pitch that is highly irritating. I'm looking for a silent computer, seriously, they exist. At night now I listen to Classical music on a "Pillow-Sonic". It doesn't help me sleep but atleast the tinnitus is somewhat masked. People who have permanent damage are pretty much resigned to a life of noise. > >I guess I don't know what your talking about, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > smn > I'm looking for a silent >computer, seriously, they exist. Some folks have drilled a hole in the wall, and placed the CPU in an adjacent room. Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >Some folks have drilled a hole in the wall, and placed the CPU in an adjacent >room. I did that years ago. Today, with an LCD monitor, you could avoid *all* the electronic and mechanical noise. Just put the keyboard, mouse, and screen on your desk. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG |
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