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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / July 2009

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Has anyone tried "Tinnitus Phase-Out?"  Opinions?  Link.

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Gold Finch - 05 Jul 2009 19:43 GMT
I'd be interested to know if anyone here has tried this.  This doctor/
company sells a sound generator-headphone device.

http://www.tinnitusphase-out.com/contact_errorna.html
Peter Larsen - 05 Jul 2009 20:54 GMT
> I'd be interested to know if anyone here has tried this.

Many people have tried making concealed marketing here previously, it may be
unintentional on your part, but it is difficult to see whether you are one
more of them, so you get the benefit of the doubt and a follow-up rather
than a plonk.

>  This doctor/
> company sells a sound generator-headphone device.
>
> http://www.tinnitusphase-out.com/contact_errorna.html

As you can see by reading my old posts I question the validity of the
concept. Tinnitus occurs in the recovery phase after noise exposure, and if
it is of long duration then recovery may be attempted by the body but not
attained. The concept of this device is to determine the exact frequency of
the patients tinnitus and then negate it via an equally strong sinewave at
the same frequeny that is in inverse polarity.

Let us disregard the absurdity of the concept of getting an exact opposite
for a moment and look at the mechanics of noise induced damage. The
parameter is amount of energy delivered to the cochlea. So if a patient has
""80 dB of tinnitus at 9 kHz"" then it is to be counteracted by an 80 dB
sinewave at 9 kHz.

The corresponding energy will be delivered to the cochlea and it will be
well and truly into the unsafe loudness level. Sinewave is bad for ya ....
which may well as estimated by my perception of tinnitus be why it may well
work: it causes a new noise trauma and puts the hearing system back into the
pre-recevery tinnitus free phase. This may or may not be the case, but it is
certainly my worry after reading the sites description of the concept.

Patent protection does NOT require that something actually works, only that
it is "different" and "new". The pricing suggests at a glance that the
functionality of this device is to funnel money from people with tinnitus to
the inventer in large amounts.

Real world tinnitus as I have experienced it for many years sweeps and
alters it perceived level semi-randomly.

  Kind regards

  Peter Larsen
Gold Finch - 10 Jul 2009 15:20 GMT
> Many people have tried making concealed marketing here previously, it may be
> unintentional on your part, but it is difficult to see whether you are one
> more of them, so you get the benefit of the doubt and a follow-up rather
> than a plonk.

I understand the concern, but I assure you that I am not a spammer.
My tinnitus has gotten worst lately, possibly from some medication(s)
I take.

I remember reading a post here a few years ago from a guy who said he
had some computer program he downloaded, (I think free) which he used
to match the sound of his tinnitus.  He said it gave temporary
relief.  I was just getting hopeful that something more refined had
been developed.

I've had tinnitus since 1995.  I got it from medication.  When it
first started I found a recommendation somewhere to try two herbs, one
was nettles and I forget what the other one was.  After six months,
the loudness lessened somewhat.  Obviously I can't tell if it was the
herbs or just the natural course of events.  I think I'll try to
reconnect with that info. again.

Acupuncture did nothing, but in fairness to the doctor, she said at
the start that T was a tough thing to get results for.

Another poster once suggested that if they could tell exactly where in
the brain the tinnitus is being perceived, maybe neurosurgeons could
go in and zap it.

Anyway, like a lot of people, I just keep groping around.
Bluto - 06 Jul 2009 23:09 GMT
>I'd be interested to know if anyone here has tried this.  This doctor/
>company sells a sound generator-headphone device.
>
>http://www.tinnitusphase-out.com/contact_errorna.html.

Doctors who market products are jackasses.  How do you know this fool
is even a doctor?  How do we know you're not that fool posting this
message as a stealthy kind of spam.
Susan - 07 Jul 2009 01:58 GMT
>> I'd be interested to know if anyone here has tried this.  This doctor/
>> company sells a sound generator-headphone device.

> Doctors who market products are jackasses.  How do you know this fool
> is even a doctor?  How do we know you're not that fool posting this
> message as a stealthy kind of spam.

Why did you just repost the spammer's entire post with the spam link?

Susan
Bluto - 07 Jul 2009 13:58 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Susan

Because I felt like it.  Any other questions?
Joesepi - 12 Jul 2009 12:47 GMT
It becomes very evident why this group and subject matter has such a rough
history here.

Is it very common for tinnitus sufferers to suffer severe anxiety and
paranoia also?

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Susan
Bluto - 12 Jul 2009 13:37 GMT
>It becomes very evident why this group and subject matter has such a rough
>history here.
>
>Is it very common for tinnitus sufferers to suffer severe anxiety and
>paranoia also?

No but  a lot of them suffer from "jackass syndrome", which apparently
you've a terrible case of :)))

>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>> Susan
Shaun - 18 Jul 2009 13:24 GMT
Hmmm.

The whole thing seems very unscientific to me.

"Phase out" implies some kind of noise cancellation system and when
this is applied to items such as loudspeakers, and similar audio
transducers sound applied in the opposite sense, will reduce the
volume because it cancels out the movement of air which makes the
sound. In a similar way, electronic cancellation of sigals can be
achived by applying exactly the SAME signals in opposite polarity.
If the polarity of the signal is wrong, the sound will instead,
actually be increased!

So, for this to apply to tinnitus, I believe (I am not a doctor) that
the equipment would have to determine the EXACT phase and pitch of the
tinnitus the sufferer was experiencing  at any particular instant in
time, and this would require a direct connection to the brain,
something which is currently impossible! So I refuse to believe that
the scheme would work by phase cancellation, and I believe anyone with
knowledge of audio systems would also make such a conclusion.

My own experiments with my own type of tinnitus...

(a high frequency tone which varies slightly in pitch which I've now
had for 18 months)

...found that some major relief can be achieved for a short while with
high frequency tones   played via "in ear" headphones such Sennheiser
CX300 which are about $20. I have found that "over ear"  headphones
such as the one depicted in that ad, don't have anywhere near the same
effect at improving things for some reason. Of course I can only speak
for my own experiences and not those of others.

The tones need not be loud. Beware though because excessive volume can
make things much worse, as I think we all now know.

Some relief afterwards comes through listening to music with good HF
(treble) content, for an hour or two with the CX300 phones. Music with
plenty of cymbals and the like. Again it doesn't need to be loud.
Again over ear phones don't seem to do the trick.

I have also found that listening through my now ageing but still
superlative Kef 104/2 loudspeakers doesn't have any effect whatsoever
on the tinnitus and if anything, over a few hours will make it worse
not better.

In my case relief can last for hours, but the tinnitus always returns
with a  vengeance the next morning. It seems the HF content satisifies
some nerves with usually missing hf stimulation for some hours.

Though my HF sensitivity has fallen I can still hear upto some 13.5
khz with reduced level, which isn't too bad.

As for the treatment advertised, the only way I am qualified to judge
is because of my knowledge of electronics and audio systems, and any
scheme of "phase cancellation" requires precise knowledge of the
nature of the oriignal signal, which seems impossible to get, unless
someone has invented a mind reader or tinnutus detector!

I do not therefore say this treatment does not work. I simply say I
cannot see how it could work from my knowledge  of electronics and of
what "phase" actually means in the context of audio systems.

Regards,
Shaun.
Joesepi - 18 Jul 2009 15:17 GMT
In audio phase has to have a point in space defined. IOW, an audio wave may
be in phase with something at one point and 180 degress out of phase at a
point of the period /2 * distance per time, later.

Since tinnitus has no actual audio and therefore has neither wavelength nor
wave period an external source can never be in phase or out of phase with a
tinnitus sound. The external sound can only stimulate the same cochlea to
send the signal to the brain that is hears that frequency and amplitude.

This phase teory can only be applied to waveforms existing in real space and
not sounds created inside the brain without a signal representing
instantaneous values. I doubt that happens in the human brain. We have no
need to develop it or clutter the brain with megaheaps of input information.

> Hmmm.
>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> Regards,
> Shaun.
geoff - 07 Jul 2009 01:54 GMT
> I'd be interested to know if anyone here has tried this.  This doctor/
> company sells a sound generator-headphone device.
>
> http://www.tinnitusphase-out.com/contact_errorna.html

A little skeptical - matching the fequency is no biggie, but to be effective
the device would need to somehow be 'phase-locked' to one's tinnitus.
otherwise it would be simply making a masking noise.

geoff
 
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