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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / November 2007I think Ginkgo Helped! (And fyfpoon is NOT an idiot.)
I've been lurking here and suffering from tinnitus for about 8 months. Although I should have gone to an ENT months ago I have not. Anyway, on a whim I decided to try ginkgo about exactly one week ago, just to see what happened...and partially because of fyfpoon constantly insisting to try all alternatives before giving up. Well almost magically this weekend my T became about 75% less noticeable than it was, and most times I have to concentrate to even hear it at all now. Is it a coincidence? Maybe, but I'm definitely sticking with the ginkgo! And to all of those who complain about fyfpoon being an idiot, jerk etc: Although he may be very "direct" at times, I think his message and intentions are good. Basically, don't give up, keep trying different alternatives even if "studies" say they aren't effective. Especially if you have nothing to lose and much to gain. Everyone's experience will be different. > I've been lurking here and suffering from tinnitus for about 8 months. Although > I should have gone to an ENT months ago I have not. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "studies" say they aren't effective. Especially if you have nothing to lose and > much to gain. Everyone's experience will be different. Since I have not referred to fyfpoon as an idiot I might be the wrong person to answer this post. The truth is that all of us have probably tried ginkgo biloba. I for one have never denied that it works for some. Unfortunately it is not a panacea. I'm glad that it has worked for you all the same. Best regards John > I've been lurking here and suffering from tinnitus for about 8 months. > Although I should have gone to an ENT months ago I have not. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > you have nothing to lose and much to gain. Everyone's experience will > be different. I agree about the ginkgo, and anecdotally I know a few others who've had positive results from it. I disagree about the OP, though, having been here for years. Susan > I've been lurking here and suffering from tinnitus for about 8 months. Although > I should have gone to an ENT months ago I have not. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "studies" say they aren't effective. Especially if you have nothing to lose and > much to gain. Everyone's experience will be different. In the year of 2005, I visited my ex-high school physics teacher in Vancouver during the summer. His wife May was suffering from both tinnitus and vertigo. So I suggested they tried gingko. He refused because of what he had read from the medical journals on the controlled studies done on GB by medical 'scientists'. I got tinnitus in the year 2003, and I should have tried ginkgo as soon as I detected the sound but I did not. The influence of all that citations around in this ng by 'holder of several ph.d degrees', certified doctors, was so overwhelming and the impact was heavily weighing on me. It was until a year later a British doctor in Hong Kong prescribed ginkgo to me that I had realized what a loss I had sustained by not having tried this herb earlier. It worked for me in terms of moving a brain ring into a drum ring and it did so by tremendously softening the high-pitched sound. Just imagine the large number of tinnitus patients out there who are still trembling forward in trying GB because of all that 'controlled studies' cited around irresponsibly. > I've been lurking here and suffering from tinnitus for about 8 months. Although > I should have gone to an ENT months ago I have not. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "studies" say they aren't effective. Especially if you have nothing to lose and > much to gain. Everyone's experience will be different. I am glad your tinnitus is improved, but how do you know it has anything to do with taking Ginko? Some people's tinnitus just gets better on its own. At the same time your tinnitus improved, someone in San Francisco belched. Perhaps that is what caused the improvement. The whole point of double-blind clincial trials is to establish conclusively that the improvement a patient experience is in fact a result of the treatment. The way if works is that two groups of patients with the affliction (in this case tinnitus) are randomly assigned to an experimental group and a control group. One group is given the real treatment (eg., Ginko) and the other is given a placebo (usually a pill containing only sugar or starch). After a given period of time, both groups are evaluated. In the case of tinnitus, which is subjective for the population we are discussing, the evaluation of improvement is based on patient reports. Studies done dating back to the '70's in Germany and other countries were either not double-blind studies, or had experimental and/or control groups that were too small to remove selection bias. More recent studies which address these methodological problems show no difference between the effectiveness of a placebo and Ginko. These kinds of studies have given us every effective drug treatment that exists in modern medicine. It is ridiculous to attack them or ignore them. And they show that Ginko is a waste of money for people afflicted by chronic, subjective, idiopathic tinnitus. > I am glad your tinnitus is improved, but how do you know it has > anything to do with taking Ginko? Some people's tinnitus just gets [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > ignore them. And they show that Ginko is a waste of money for people > afflicted by chronic, subjective, idiopathic tinnitus. They've also given us HRT and 25 years of false findings, Vioxx, Celebrex, Actos and Avandia, LymeRix and Rezulin, to name a few off the top. It doesn't matter what a study says if you happen to be the statistically insignificant responder to a substance, that's 100% effectiveness. Studies have many things influencing their *reported* outcomes, vs the actual truth. I'm not arguing against the method, of course, but against belief in its integrity without frequent failures. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Susan You have a good point. Many studies are flawed, but the methodology, while not perfect, is the best we have. A better approach for tinnitus would be based on going after treatments based on an understanding of the underlying mechanism. I think with new imaging technologies we are getting closer, but are still years away from that kind of approach. In the interim, we need to use large samples and selection criteris that are carefully randomized. Most study failures are traceable to inadequacies in these areas. In the case of Vioxx the data was there, but was essentially suppressed by the manufacturer. On 10 2 , 10 08 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > You have a good point. Many studies are flawed, but the methodology, > while not perfect, is the best we have. Perhaps it is this imperfection that misses out a lot of truth. No? > A better approach for tinnitus would be based on going after > treatments based on an understanding of the underlying mechanism. I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > - - Most studies are very tainted with bias. There is usually a reason the study is having tonnes of money spent on it in the first place. I believe testimonials, mostly, way before the studies. Usually the testimonials preceed the studies showing absolute proof by about 20-30 years. > On 10 2 , 10 08 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] >> >> - - > Most studies are very tainted with bias. There is usually a reason the > study is having tonnes of money spent on it in the first place. > > I believe testimonials, mostly, way before the studies. Usually the > testimonials preceed the studies showing absolute proof by about 20-30 > years. That's flat out dumb. Testimonials are equally likely to be tainted by profit motives, too. One can learn a lot from studies by ignoring the author's conclusions. All you can learn from a testimonial is what someone is willing to say or do for money. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > All you can learn from a testimonial is what someone is willing to say > or do for money. When I give testimonials of gingko and acupuncture, i don't do so for money...and I am someone. > Susan On Oct 3, 8:29 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > When I give testimonials of gingko and acupuncture, i don't do so for > money...and I am someone. No, you don't do it for money. You do it out of sheer ingorance. And yes, you are someone -- namely, a true textbook case of a babbling idiot. > > Susan > You have a good point. Many studies are flawed, but the methodology, > while not perfect, is the best we have. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > these areas. In the case of Vioxx the data was there, but was > essentially suppressed by the manufacturer. You think there's one, single mechanism inducing T? That's just proven not so, unless it's, perhaps, any stressor leading to adrenal suppression. All the imaging studies do is measure the effect, not the source. Most study failures or inaccurate findings are traced to bias and lying by investigators with a financial stake in the outcome, ISTM. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Susan I should have said "mechanisms", Susan. I think the value of the imaging studies is that they will finally yield an objectively measurable correlate to tinnitus. Right now the only way to measure it is through subjective reports from the people afflicted. > I think the value of the imaging studies is that they will finally > yield an objectively measurable correlate to tinnitus. Right now the > only way to measure it is through subjective reports from the people > afflicted. That's the only way that matters to a sufferer, IMO. Imaging studies may interest researchers, but in the reasonably near term, it's very hard to see them leading to symptomatic relief. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Susan Well in the case of epilepsy, imaging led to TMS-type treatments as well as surgical intervention to target areas of the brain responsible for the seizures. Knowing the cerebral locus of tinnitus generation could lead to the same type of therapies. > Well in the case of epilepsy, imaging led to TMS-type treatments as > well as surgical intervention to target areas of the brain responsible > for the seizures. Knowing the cerebral locus of tinnitus generation > could lead to the same type of therapies. I doubt that the funding of T approaches 1/10 of the funding for epilepsy. I also don't think such an invasive and potentially dangerous therapy is in order with T, considering that 90% of folks habituate on their own, and Xanax, hypnosis, TRT, masking, etc, can afford the rest a lot of relief. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Susan I don't disagree with that at all. Still, it would be nice to find a cure. There are a small number of people (small relative to the number of sufferers) who are very severely debilitated by tinnitus, despite all of the good treatments you list. > I don't disagree with that at all. Still, it would be nice to find a > cure. > > There are a small number of people (small relative to the number of > sufferers) who are very severely debilitated by tinnitus, despite all > of the good treatments you list. I'm aware of that, and it's truly awful for them. I recall how life altering the weeks of extremely loud, intrusive T I had were. Now mine is mostly gone, even when I listen for it, and when it's back, it's a tolerable hiss, not that jet engine roar. I don't think a cure is going to come from brain studies, I think it will come in different forms for different people. For me, it was antibiotics for the causal infection and then low carb dieting finished off the little that was left. For others it may be adrenal related (extremely common in chronic infection, perimenopause and various endocrine disorders). Susan The primary reason for prior T treatment failures has been that the treatments were only directed to the ear. Today we understand that the nerve and the brain must be attended to. A big help has been studies of sleep apnea effects on the brain and remedies for this. Any study of any treatment must consider placebo effect - even cancer drugs! But with Tinnitus where it is all subjective and there is no objective marker, analyzing the placebo aspect is extremely difficult. At the famous Maimonadies headache clinic, no matter what drug they tested, the beneficial effects were always in proportion to the frequency of visits. When we did the earlier work, the office was instructed not to speak to the patients, not to greet them warmly, not to encourage them in any way. Many patients in the study commented on how cold our office people (and doctors) were - which was true! Only when we had real evidence that the therapy worked, only then did I allow friendly warm encouragement from the staff (and myself). If you hug the patient and encourage "This medicine will make you well" you can screw up your research easily. That's why we have double blind studies. One of my friends, an oncologist, is useless for drug research. He is so warm and giving to all his patients that the placebo patients feel much better, as well as the drug patients! The treatment directed at ear, nerve and brain has already shown promise. Murray Grossan, M.D. On 10 2 , 9 37 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > > I've been lurking here and suffering from tinnitus for about 8 months. Although > > I should have gone to an ENT months ago I have not. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > in San Francisco belched. Perhaps that is what caused the > improvement. Then how do you know that it does not have anything to do with Ginko? Reality to him is CAUSAL(cause and effect) while to you or someone not in the situation is CORRELATIONAL. So are you suggesting that his clinical experience is not telling the truth and the results should be superceded by whatever controlled studies you would like to cite from the google? Then what happens to other sets of controlled studies that point to the contrary? > The whole point of double-blind clincial trials is to establish > conclusively that the improvement a patient experience is in fact a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > ignore them. And they show that Ginko is a waste of money for people > afflicted by chronic, subjective, idiopathic tinnitus. > I am glad your tinnitus is improved, but how do you know it has > anything to do with taking Ginko? Some people's tinnitus just gets > better on its own. At the same time your tinnitus improved, someone > in San Francisco belched. Perhaps that is what caused the > improvement. Three months ago, I had a slight cold so I took some vitamin c and a few days later the cold went away. So, that proves that: In a few days the cold goes away, nothing more. Dahh. So try Ginkgo on people who had tinnitus for many years and they will report. I had tinnitus for 1-2 or 3 day periods many times in my life before it became permanent. I guess if I tried a remedy any of those times, one might think that I found a miracle cure. Ginkgo does not work for me, an 8 year tinnitus veteran. Virtually (everybody has tinnitus). It's the volume that's the issue. > The whole point of double-blind clincial trials is to establish > conclusively that the improvement a patient experience is in fact a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > ignore them. And they show that Ginko is a waste of money for people > afflicted by chronic, subjective, idiopathic tinnitus. The only ringing GB is good for is the pocketbooks of its peddlers >> I am glad your tinnitus is improved, but how do you know it has >> anything to do with taking Ginko? Some people's tinnitus just gets [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> ignore them. And they show that Ginko is a waste of money for people >> afflicted by chronic, subjective, idiopathic tinnitus.
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