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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / October 2007Transforming the school of habituation into the school of treatments.
In the year 2003 when I got tinnitus, I came to this ng. This ng was infested with habituation experts. They were very impatient with anyone who did not subscribe to the habituation philosophy. 4 years later today, with the relentless efforts of FP, this ng has been transformed from a school of habituation into a school of treatments. The difference is significant: while the habituation school rules out whatever does not belong to habituation, the school of treatments views habituation as *one* of the methods used for treating tinnitus. On that basis, the school of treatments is superior! On 9 27 , 7 59 , "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > In the year 2003 when I got tinnitus, I came to this ng. This ng was > infested with habituation experts. They were very impatient with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > treating tinnitus. On that basis, the school of treatments is > superior! "Won't tinnitus or acute hearing loss get better without treatment? Don't rely on it! There is widely divided opinion amongst experts as to the probability of the condition healing or improving without treatment. The president of the German Tinnitus League, Elke Kn?r, believes that this probability is often overestimated." On Sep 27, 5:59 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > In the year 2003 when I got tinnitus, I came to this ng. This ng was > infested with habituation experts. They were very impatient with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > treating tinnitus. On that basis, the school of treatments is > superior! Once a medical cause has been ruled out by a thorugh examination, the only treatment for tinnitus is habituation. The "relentless efforts of FP" come down to the inane blatherings of a fool. On 9/27/07 8:02 PM, in article 1190948555.097606.208220@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, > Once a medical cause has been ruled out by a thorugh examination, the > only treatment for tinnitus is habituation. Cognitive therapy is of value as is any method of prooting relaxation in order to break the anxiety reinforcement cycle. Certain therapies directed to nerve and brain as well as ear may help too. Of course first you must eliminate hypertension, elevated cholesterol and lipids, and normalize the thyroid. In the past the therapies were all directed to the ear. Today we know we need to include nerve and brain. > On 9/27/07 8:02 PM, in article > 1190948555.097606.208...@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > In the past the therapies were all directed to the ear. Today we know we > need to include nerve and brain. This guy named BaldBastardBus was brought up in the past, but is walking into the modern era to express his antique knowledge. On Sep 28, 12:44 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 9/27/07 8:02 PM, in article > > 1190948555.097606.208...@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > walking into the modern era to express > his antique knowledge. Geez, you really are a first-class idiot. And you can stuff your threats. You might consider no longer disseminating false information about tinnitus. But I really think you are probably too dim to consider anything. On 9 29 , 8 59 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > On Sep 28, 12:44 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > - - Either show some intellectual substance for a debate or else please bud off... > Either show some intellectual substance for a debate or else please > bud off... Showing you "intellectual substance for a debate" would be a bit like debating an ant. Why don't you stop inflicting your ignorance on everyone and crawl into the nearest hole. You can take your ginko, chinese herbs, and other crapola with you. Don't let the door hit your tail on the way out. On 9 29 , 11 12 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > > Either show some intellectual substance for a debate or else please > > bud off... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Don't let the door hit your tail on the way out. Well, for a while I thought you would be at least half as good as Dr. Nagler. Frankly, you do NOT have any thing intellectual to share except some sensational words and sentences to cover up your ignorance of the subject. However, if you insist on being a masochist, there are other more effective options. On Sep 29, 2:58 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 9 29 , 8 59 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Either show some intellectual substance for a debate or else please > bud off... I think you are under a colossal misapprehension. I am sure most here, including myself, have tried Chinese medicine, and the effect has been a disappointment. I do not see it as a failure, as I still seek the advice of a Chinese doctor on other ailments, as I so do at my doctor's surgery. I think we have all gone through that desperation stage and tried anything to everything hoping we can alleviate the effects of the dreaded T. None of us see habituation as a preferred alternative. It just happens to be the one that we are left with. I would not underestimate the degree of suffering that most here have inevitably suffered. Insults help no one, including you... Best regards John > On Sep 29, 2:58 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > John John You are correct. There are medical causes for tinnitus, which is why anyone who develops it should geg a thorough checkup from an ear specialist MD. Howver, in all too many cases no cause can be found. If there is substantial hearing loss, a hearing aid may help mask the tinnitus. Some people find relief from a masker, that covers it up. The only alternative is habituation. Don't sell it short. Even loud tinnitus can be habituated, so that it is not the constant annoyance it is in the beginning. There are therapies like TRT that care designed to facilitate habituation, but in most cases doing nothing is just as effective as active treatment. The bogus therapies advocated by fyfpoon are entirely and completely worthless. On Sep 29, 2:46 pm, BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > > On Sep 29, 2:58 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > The bogus therapies advocated by fyfpoon are entirely and completely > worthless. Hi, I tend to agree with the tenor of your argument. But I have found Chinese medicine very useful. I think for some it is useful for tinnitus. I have no doubts that GB has helped. What I dislike about fyfpoon's notion, it's as if we all started from a position of habituation, its an insulting assertion. We all want a 'cure' to this condition, and I am positive that most here have tried several techniques. Many of us have probably tried things we would only do because of the intense suffering that is caused by tinnitus. I do not think he has changed the nature of the News Group. It is self aggrandisement of the worst possible kind. I come here to read what Murray Grossman has to say before I read anyone else. Best regards John > On Sep 29, 2:46 pm, BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > What I dislike about fyfpoon's notion, it's as if we all started from > a position of habituation, its an insulting assertion. You don't read English again. That a ng is "infested" by those who favor nothing but habituation is not the same thing as "we _all_ started from a position of habituation...". It is an insulting assertion of your own making, which you have attributed it to be from me. But then again, I understand that English may not be your first language... ========================================= We all want a > 'cure' to this condition, and I am positive that most here have tried > several techniques. Many of us have probably tried things we would [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > - - On 9 29 , 9 46 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > > On Sep 29, 2:58 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > anyone who develops it should geg a thorough checkup from an ear > specialist MD. Let me point out a fallacy in your argument, provided of course you do have the ability to understand. There is no such a thing as a "thorough checkup". By definition, a "thorough' examination is one capable of checking all possible causes of tinnitus. Such an examination does not exist anywhere in the whole world. There are, however, many kinds of check-ups by which the doctor _does his best_ to find out what is causing your tinnitus. And the results of the check-ups for the same tinnitus patient by different doctors are not necessarily identical to each other. That is to say, check-up(a) may tell a different story than check-up (b). Since your assumption of a "thorough" examination is unfounded, the inference you draw from it should follow the unfounded assumption to collapse into ashes. A more appropriate description should be that doctor (a) checks up on patient XYZ and finds no possible cause of tinnitus. Thus doctor (a) recommends habituation to patient XYZ. Doctor (b) checks up on the same patient XYZ and finds a possible cause, and recommends a treatment that differs from habituation. Well, is the above too complicated for you to understand? Howver, in all too many cases no cause can be found. > If there is substantial hearing loss, a hearing aid may help mask the > tinnitus. Some people find relief from a masker, that covers it up. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > - - > On Sep 29, 2:58 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > here, including myself, have tried Chinese medicine, and the effect > has been a disappointment. What has Chinese med got to do with my post? Do tinnitus treatments mean exclusively herbs? Read the post and reply again. Don't just say something in your reply which is totally unrelated to what is being espoused. I do not see it as a failure, as I still > seek the advice of a Chinese doctor on other ailments, as I so do at > my doctor's surgery. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > - - On Sep 30, 11:21 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sep 29, 2:58 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > > - - Wow, if you read my post carefully, I was not replying to you. > On Sep 30, 11:21 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > - - Sorry... On Sep 30, 11:49 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sep 30, 11:21 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > Sorry... Please try to read more carefully. "I would not underestimate the degree of suffering that most here have inevitably suffered. Insults help no one, including you... " If your arguments had more weight you just might not make so many jibes and insults. Murray Grossman has real authority here, and you never see him stoop to such condescension. Whether you like it or not, and I certainly don't, habituation is what most of us have had to come to terms with. If you have cured your tinnitus, then good for you. We would all be happy to read what steps you took to rid yourself of this malady. Best regards John > On Sep 30, 11:49 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > jibes and insults. Murray Grossman has real authority here, and you > never see him stoop to such condescension. Are you a protestant? Having to resort to "this is what *other people* say" criterion or the conformity to the norm? Your moral lecture produces no authority here, because you are not the moral judge. By judging, you have already made yourself at par with the one you are accusing of something. > Whether you like it or not, and I certainly don't, habituation is what > most of us have had to come to terms with. "most of us"? What is the composition of this "us"? The tinnitus patients in America or in this group? Let me tell you something: I have lived in both sides of the world. In this side or the eastern hemisphere, both the doctors and patients resort mostly to treatments. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I CONJURE UP THE WHOLE THING MYSELF? If you have cured your > tinnitus, then good for you. We would all be happy to read what steps > you took to rid yourself of this malady. If you had followed my posts at least reasonably often, rather than to focus on Murray's, you would have heard my story. In the past 4 years since i got tinnitus, I have *personally* met 4 persons whose tinnitus was CURED using different methods, mainly intravenous injection and acupuncture. All of these patients, however, have one thing in common. They had their T treated while it was fresh(within 2 weeks). They did't waste time habituating and letting their T grow old...or choosing to be forever sick!!! My T was old when I got treatments, after all that silly habituation. But I have still been able to bring it down to a level equal to about 10-15% of what it was. I am talking about going into a quiet room and listening to my T deliberately for what it is. It is a couple of acupuncture treatment taken in Vancouver that got me out of all that discomfort I had been suffering for months, and got me out of a big chunk of medication i had been on for months. Prior to that, all that "thorough" examination by high-tech doctors with their highly expensive machines produced NOTHING! Subsequently all that controlled placebo studies on this and that were NO scientific authority to me whatsoever but in my view have been blindly worshipped by people who don't think........ What is your defintion of habituation? Leaving it untreated? Let it recover on its own? Some can manage to do that, I am sure. > Best regards > > John- - > > - - On 9 28 , 11 02 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > On Sep 27, 5:59 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Once a medical cause has been ruled out by a thorugh examination, the > only treatment for tinnitus is habituation. Is there a standard for a "thorough examination"? I went through a "thorough examination" too but I still felt very uncomfortable until I had a couple of acupuncture treatment to have the nerve part taken care of. Why are you so dogmatic by insisting that what is true of your situation must be true of the situation for everybody all over the world? > The "relentless efforts of FP" come down to the inane blatherings of a > fool. If you want to come for a debate, you are welcomed to do so in a rational and analytical manner. But if you insist on practising a bad habit which you might have inherited from your forefathers who migrated to North America from the LOWEST social echelon in the home countries, I want you to know that I have never allowed bad habits like this one to go unpunished. After 3 months of not reading my daily ast digests, I finally read one today. As expected, the first one I read has plenty of postings from the same arrogant arse, ruining discourse and insulting people. Some things never change. It's gone on for years with this guy. But people, why battle the arrogant beast? You should consider a moderated Tinnitus group. This public, unmoderated newsgroup has no one to boot jerks like Poon. While we can debate the pros and cons of 'public' newsgroups where an arse can setup shop forever, I can tell you this: A fairly moderated newsgroup is better. Over at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Tinnitus, Poon tried to setup shop with his racist, arrogant rants in January of this year. On March 25, after several warning by the moderator about his civility (not his ideas), he was booted. I, for one, appreciate this protection. It makes me ill having to even look at his racist, hateful, arrogant postings. I havent even had to think about it for months, until now. I'd love to see all the civil, non spamming, people who post here go over to the yahoo group where their posts will be encouraged and appreciated. The moderation is good and fair. Jim > After 3 months of not reading my daily ast digests, I finally read one > today. As expected, the first one I read has plenty of postings from [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > appreciated. The moderation is good and fair. > Jim Racist? Which race against which one? How do you know what my ethnicity is? I think it is class discrimination rather than racial discrimination that is the point here. It is the class of the civilized who debate with evidence against a class of trash people who debate with emotion-loaded words and sweeping generalizations. Just look at what you have come up with. You have come to this ng totally unprepared with whatever evidence needed for an argument supporting or going against the theme of this post and you just come here and sh.t... On Sep 27, 12:59 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > In the year 2003 when I got tinnitus, I came to this ng. This ng was > infested with habituation experts. They were very impatient with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > treating tinnitus. On that basis, the school of treatments is > superior! I'm sorry you think that I am interested in being a moral authority, it serves no purpose in medical science, so I have no interest in such a position. Unlike you... In short, you think you have changed the nature of this newsgroup into some pioneering treatment based solution for Tinnitus. You have assumed a leadership role, which for the most part other contributors have poured scorn on. Let me ask, who supports your contention that you have changed the site in a positive manner over the last three years? I invite other posters to disagree with my assertion that if anyone has real authority here it is Murray. If you agree or disagree then please post and if you like you may want to rate them accordingly, most authoritative 10, to least authoritative 0. Again I think you misunderstand most sufferers. They, like me have probably invested quite a lot of money, maybe several thousand dollars trying to find an effective treatment with the onset of the condition. To assume otherwise is frankly delinquent. Within days of succumbing to this ailment we have probably started acupuncture, bought GB, and in the first few months tried several other more exotic remedies. So that there can be no misunderstanding, habituation is the least preferred treatment for all of us. Best regards John > On Sep 27, 12:59 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > please post and if you like you may want to rate them accordingly, > most authoritative 10, to least authoritative 0. I don't have that much time to cover all your points espoused in a loose fashion but I do have time for this one. I don't think there is a medical authority in this ng but some are more authoritative than others in talking about _certain aspects_ of tinnitus as a result of the profession they are practicing. In order for me to rate Murrary in order to satisfy your perception of reality along certain intellectual lines, please ask Murrary to reply to my post "How should a doctor advise his patients when bleeding is observed from taking blood thinning medicine?". let him answer this question and we go from there. > Again I think you misunderstand most sufferers. They, like me have > probably invested quite a lot of money, maybe several thousand dollars [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > John >In order for me to rate Murrary in order to satisfy your perception of >reality along certain intellectual lines, please ask Murrary to reply >to my post "How should a doctor advise his patients when bleeding is >observed from taking blood thinning medicine?". let him answer this >question and we go from there. In order for YOU to "rate" Murray? You really take the cake. For a unique combination of arrogance and utter stupidity. On Sep 30, 5:24 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sep 27, 12:59 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > > John On 10 1 , 11 15 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > >In order for me to rate Murrary in order to satisfy your perception of > >reality along certain intellectual lines, please ask Murrary to reply [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > In order for YOU to "rate" Murray? You really take the cake. For a > unique combination of arrogance and utter stupidity. I was requested by jrw to do so, your illiterate. > On Sep 30, 5:24 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > - - On Oct 1, 2:23 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 10 1 , 11 15 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > > - - Actually, I thought this was an ideal opportunity for the members to give their opinions on the relative merits of you and Dr Grossman. Not so much on what you thought of the good Doctor. Best regards John > On Oct 1, 2:23 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > > - - Why not ask *all* the members of this ng to give their opinions on the relative merits of you? You see, now you understnad why I once asked you if you are a protestant subscribing to a form of collectivist barbarism in the form of "this is what other people say about you". This sort of mentality is most commonly observed amongst islanders such as the British and the Japanese. On Oct 1, 5:38 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 1, 2:23 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > This sort of mentality is most commonly observed amongst islanders > such as the British and the Japanese. You don't say. Well, let me add that "your" kind of mentality is most commonly observed among inmates of mental institutions. On 10 2 , 9 50 , BaldBastardBus...@hotmail.com wrote: > On Oct 1, 5:38 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > > - - Were you an inmate locked up in the mental institutions? How would you have known? On Oct 2, 12:38 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 1, 2:23 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > This sort of mentality is most commonly observed amongst islanders > such as the British and the Japanese. Thanks for undermining the thinking of the British, and the Japanese for that matter. We can only hope to emulate your perspective on the world. Actually, and I know this is probably not your field, can you name a more globalised economy than the UK? Or a more international city than London? Best regards John > On Oct 2, 12:38 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > - - Never mind the economy or internationl city. These issues are irrelevant to what we have been engaging ourselves in. All I want to say is if you have a point to make, do it yourself and back it up with the evidence you can come up with. Believe in what you do and what you are, rather than having others rate you as a bench mark upon which you deliver a verdict on yourself. In a nutshell, be an independent- minded person. Being independent-minded is a pre-requisite for democracy. By the way, you aren't an American. Are you? You come across to me like a Hong Konger, be he a Chinese or British islander. On Oct 2, 11:58 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 2, 12:38 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 116 lines] > By the way, you aren't an American. Are you? You come across to me > like a Hong Konger, be he a Chinese or British islander. You are very fond of making claims, about the small mindedness of certain peoples. If you want to do so on tinnitus, I would prefer you provided a link to an accredited university when you discuss Gingko biloba, like this one. http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/322/7278/73 I know this refutes your current thesis, so you might help us out and provide us with some more data. Best regards John > On Oct 2, 11:58 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > You are very fond of making claims, about the small mindedness of > certain peoples. Some are that way, I did not use the word "small-mindedness". A more gentle word is 'high principle'. If you want to do so on tinnitus, I would prefer you > provided a link to an accredited university when you discuss Gingko > biloba, like this one. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I know this refutes your current thesis, so you might help us out and > provide us with some more data. I have put in my share on ginkgo. Anyone who is interested can just try it out and do so without going through volumes of liternature. > Best regards > > John- - > > - - On Oct 3, 2:53 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 2, 11:58 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 141 lines] > > > - - I'll take your claims seriously when you can cite an accredited university that has made a study on GB. You might consider anecdotal evidence as the basis of science. I am sorry but you are mistaken. I do say that because I am a protestant. Nor do I say this from the perspective of an islander. I thought you might take this link seriously... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=15106224&cmd=showdetailvi ew&indexed=google Best regards John > On Oct 3, 2:53 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 158 lines] > > - - I went into your link and I will NOT use it to supercede whatever clinical experiences I have had with gingko myself. You will dig out a lot of controlled tests about acupuncture too. As a matter of fact, Jim Chinnis in this group used to be strongly against acupuncture citing volumous amount of liternature pointing the uselessness of acupuncture for tinnitus. I think those controlled tests could not have been more wrong. On Oct 4, 1:28 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 3, 2:53 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 166 lines] > acupuncture for tinnitus. I think those controlled tests could not > have been more wrong. Now we know, you prefer anecdotal evidence to scientific rigour. On that basis you want to convert this group? OK, good luck. Best regards John > On Oct 4, 1:28 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 170 lines] > > Now we know, you prefer anecdotal evidence to scientific rigour. You are trying to suggest that my clinical experience to be anecdotal evidence while what you have read is scientifc rigour. Can I turn the table around? On > that basis you want to convert this group? I am here to express my own opinion but not to speak on behalf of the group. I don't have the silly habit of summoning majority support to back up a point. OK, good luck. Meaningless expression! > Best regards > > John- - > > - - On Oct 4, 12:56 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 4, 1:28 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 192 lines] > > > - - "In the year 2003 when I got tinnitus, I came to this ng. This ng was infested with habituation experts. They were very impatient with anyone who did not subscribe to the habituation philosophy. 4 years later today, with the relentless efforts of FP, this ng has been transformed from a school of habituation into a school of treatments. The difference is significant: while the habituation school rules out whatever does not belong to habituation, the school of treatments views habituation as *one* of the methods used for treating tinnitus. On that basis, the school of treatments is superior!" I assume you are the herculean FP in this hagiography. You claim to have changed our opinion on habituation. Is that not "the silly habit of summoning majority support to back up a point" How do you know you have transformed this news group? Again, you have the opportunity to disagree with my assertion that "you prefer anecdotal evidence to scientific rigour", but you prefer to divert and introduce a non sequitur. I have absolutely no problem if you prefer your own clinical experience to that of a medical trial. I personally would never advocate that GB does not work on the basis of my 'clinical' experience. Thats just an idiosyncrasy of mine. Best regards John snipped... > Again, you have the opportunity to disagree with my assertion that > "you prefer anecdotal evidence to scientific rigour", You have asserted nothing but defined my approach as anecdotal while yours as scientific, and upon this benchmark you went ahead to make your assertion which is acceptable to yourself only, not to me. but you prefer > to divert and introduce a non sequitur. I have absolutely no problem > if you prefer your own clinical experience to that of a medical > trial. I personally would never advocate that GB does not work on the > basis of my 'clinical' experience. Thats just an idiosyncrasy of > mine. Do what you want but refrain from calling the other person's approach as anecdotal while yours scientific. > Best regards > > John On Oct 5, 4:33 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > snipped... > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > John I will refrain from that approach, if you can cite an scientific study by an accredited university. Your own experience is by definition anecdotal. Best regards John > On Oct 5, 4:33 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I will refrain from that approach, if you can cite an scientific study > by an accredited university. Why should I allow myself to be contained by your set of guidelines? I think that German experience is more than sufficient. Your own experience is by definition > anecdotal. When I have the German experience to back up what I have experienced clinically, it is no longer anecdotal. Your defintion is wrong. Beside, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily false evidence. It just has to wait to be substantiated by more systematic scientific evaluation. > Best regards > > John- - > > - - On Oct 5, 9:37 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 5, 4:33 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > > - - I'm sorry that you continuously fail to understand my views. If this is a result of too many polysyllable words I will adjust my style accordingly. So that there can be no misunderstanding here, anecdotal evidence is not false. No where have I stated this. In all probability it is likely to be truthful. You mentioned the German experience, could you please send me a link. A clinical trial of one actually will not suffice. If you know of a treatment that has passed the authorities anywhere within the OECD please let me know. Best regards John > On Oct 5, 9:37 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > You mentioned the German experience, could you please send me a link. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=120515 70&dopt=AbstractPlus Notice the difference in the administration of GB. > A clinical trial of one actually will not suffice. Actually the European doctors have done quite a bit of research on GB and found it useful. If you know of a > treatment that has passed the authorities anywhere within the OECD > please let me know. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > - - On Oct 5, 3:22 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 5, 9:37 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > > - - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSear ch=15142066&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel. Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus You might find this more interesting, notice the date, 2004... On Oct 5, 3:22 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 5, 9:37 am, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > > - - Did you not see this article? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSear ch=15106224&ordinalpos=26&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel .Pubmed_RVDocSum > On Oct 5, 3:22 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > - - I appreciate your effort in convincing me that GB is ineffective but I have found it useful. So talk to Jim Chinnis and have him agree to your findings. The are irrelevant to me. On Oct 6, 1:07 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 5, 3:22 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > have found it useful. So talk to Jim Chinnis and have him agree to > your findings. The are irrelevant to me. Your inability to understand the points I make are quite disturbing. I would advise anyone to try GB with tinnitus, you owe it yourself to try several treatments, you might get lucky. For what its worth my top priority would be acupuncture. What i would not do is make scientific claims. Your last utterance does strike me that you might be suffering from NPD. Best regards John > On Oct 6, 1:07 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > > - - GO TO A NEW POST. ok? On Oct 7, 3:01 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Oct 6, 1:07 pm, "fyfp...@gmail.com" <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > > GO TO A NEW POST. ok? Huh? |
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