Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / November 2006
Very Useful Study
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Mr. Y - 11 Nov 2006 03:21 GMT Hi all,
Some have discounted accupuncture as voodoo and not an effective treatment for tinnitus. In this study, there were two groups. One group had needles put targeting areas thought to impact tinnitus. The other group had needles, but in areas thought not to impact tinnitus. Although both groups claimed a small improvement, the group with the needles targeting the areas thought to impact tinnitus had significantly better results.
I wish there were more studies like this.
Susan - 11 Nov 2006 14:48 GMT > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I wish there were more studies like this. Like what?
Could you please post the full text, or at least the abstract of the study?
Susan
Jim Chinnis - 11 Nov 2006 15:26 GMT "Mr. Y" <ndbanerjeevideos@insightbb.com> wrote in part:
>Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I wish there were more studies like this. There have been quite a few, I've never seen one done properly that found a significant effect on the tinnitus. The Cochrane Group did a review/meta-analysis of this a while back with very negative conclusions.
What study are you referring to?
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
Mr. Y - 11 Nov 2006 20:03 GMT I think my wife through out the magazine, but it was in the most recent version of "Tinnitus Today" magazine. However,it referred to another study somebody else did. I will have to dig for this.
> "Mr. Y" <ndbanerjeevideos@insightbb.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > What study are you referring to? Janice - 13 Nov 2006 02:14 GMT I, personally, know of one case of a woman in her early twenties, complaining to me about tinnitus so bad, she was starting to go mad. At my recommendation, she tried accupuncture and has never experienced tinnitus for the last two years now.
> Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I wish there were more studies like this. fyfpoon@gmail.com - 14 Nov 2006 11:22 GMT "Janice 写道: "
> I, personally, know of one case of a woman in her early twenties, > complaining to me about tinnitus so bad, she was starting to go mad. > At my recommendation, she tried accupuncture and has never experienced > tinnitus for the last two years now. I can provide testimony to the positive effect of acupuncture treatment. I complained frequently in this ng about 'somatic discomfort'...'red spot moving from side to side of my brain..' This illness with unknown cause and unknown name bothered me for 2 years. No one in this group seemed to know what I was talking about. I went to see many doctors including neurologists and found no answer. It was by accident that I was introduced to an acupuncturist in Vancouver and the maddening discomfort was cured. The result of the treatment was that the discomfort was gone but the tinnitus noise was left behind; it too subsided over time.
I think in my case the acupuncture treatment might have touched upon a spot that was the cause of my 'somatic discomfort'. And this 'somatic discomfort' may have born a direct or indirect relationship to my tinnitus.
Thus I recommend anyone who has run out of alternatives to try acupuncture for 2 visits. If nothing happens after the second visit, just drop it. Similar suggestion goes for gingko. You can read and read all that 'controlled studies' afterwards...
> > Hi all, > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > I wish there were more studies like this. Janice - 15 Nov 2006 02:55 GMT I usually recommend three treatments max for other ailments.
"Janice дµÀ£º "
> I, personally, know of one case of a woman in her early twenties, > complaining to me about tinnitus so bad, she was starting to go mad. > At my recommendation, she tried accupuncture and has never > experienced > tinnitus for the last two years now. I can provide testimony to the positive effect of acupuncture treatment. I complained frequently in this ng about 'somatic discomfort'...'red spot moving from side to side of my brain..' This illness with unknown cause and unknown name bothered me for 2 years. No one in this group seemed to know what I was talking about. I went to see many doctors including neurologists and found no answer. It was by accident that I was introduced to an acupuncturist in Vancouver and the maddening discomfort was cured. The result of the treatment was that the discomfort was gone but the tinnitus noise was left behind; it too subsided over time.
I think in my case the acupuncture treatment might have touched upon a spot that was the cause of my 'somatic discomfort'. And this 'somatic discomfort' may have born a direct or indirect relationship to my tinnitus.
Thus I recommend anyone who has run out of alternatives to try acupuncture for 2 visits. If nothing happens after the second visit, just drop it. Similar suggestion goes for gingko. You can read and read all that 'controlled studies' afterwards...
> > Hi all, > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > I wish there were more studies like this. Mr. Y - 15 Nov 2006 14:07 GMT Yes, you always are talking about this acupuncturist in Vancouver. However, I live in Indianapolis. Armed with only a phone book and the internet, is there any way that I can find an actupuncturist who is likely to be good at doing a good job in my area. In your experience, are the all basically the same, or are there a lot of quacks out there?
"Janice дµÀ£º "
> I, personally, know of one case of a woman in her early twenties, > complaining to me about tinnitus so bad, she was starting to go mad. > At my recommendation, she tried accupuncture and has never experienced > tinnitus for the last two years now. I can provide testimony to the positive effect of acupuncture treatment. I complained frequently in this ng about 'somatic discomfort'...'red spot moving from side to side of my brain..' This illness with unknown cause and unknown name bothered me for 2 years. No one in this group seemed to know what I was talking about. I went to see many doctors including neurologists and found no answer. It was by accident that I was introduced to an acupuncturist in Vancouver and the maddening discomfort was cured. The result of the treatment was that the discomfort was gone but the tinnitus noise was left behind; it too subsided over time.
I think in my case the acupuncture treatment might have touched upon a spot that was the cause of my 'somatic discomfort'. And this 'somatic discomfort' may have born a direct or indirect relationship to my tinnitus.
Thus I recommend anyone who has run out of alternatives to try acupuncture for 2 visits. If nothing happens after the second visit, just drop it. Similar suggestion goes for gingko. You can read and read all that 'controlled studies' afterwards...
> > Hi all, > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > I wish there were more studies like this. Janice - 15 Nov 2006 22:06 GMT There may be a lot of quacks out there. Some of them have M.D. creditials and are quacks.
My accupunturist has no credentials in Canada but is a Chinese army trained physician.
This is why we give the advise of two or three treatments. My accupuncturist charges $35 for the first treatment (1/2 hour) and $30 for repeat treatments (1/2 hour). If the price is too high or you have to pay up-front, find somebody that isn't in it for the money so much.
> Yes, you always are talking about this acupuncturist in Vancouver. > However, I live in Indianapolis. Armed with only a phone book and [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >> > >> > I wish there were more studies like this. fyfpoon@gmail.com - 20 Nov 2006 12:04 GMT I can get you the name and phone of this particular acupuncturist if you want. Actually you can find that from my old posts in this group. You can go there for 2 treatments. Each charges about Can$35. I think it is worth your while. But if you think you have not been through with the deluxe ENT doctors, help yourself.
================================= "Mr. Y 写道: "
> Yes, you always are talking about this acupuncturist in Vancouver. However, > I live in Indianapolis. Armed with only a phone book and the internet, is > there any way that I can find an actupuncturist who is likely to be good at > doing a good job in my area. In your experience, are the all basically the > same, or are there a lot of quacks out there? There are too many quacks out there.
> "Janice D′μà£o > " [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > > > > > I wish there were more studies like this. Anonymous - 15 Nov 2006 01:54 GMT Here's a link but the results are less than encouragng
http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/articles/tinnit.html
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 25 Nov 2006 13:37 GMT Get a referal to someone who his patients say is good and try it for 2 times....
======================= "Anonymous 写道: "
> Here's a link but the results are less than encouragng > > http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/articles/tinnit.html Mr. Y - 15 Nov 2006 14:03 GMT I found the article: Tinnitus Today Vol 31, Number 3, September 2006
Acupuncture Portugal, 2006 Researchers Okada et al. cleverly constructed a double-blind acupuncture/tinnitus study in which all the patients received treatment (the insertion of tiny needles into specific points in the body), but none of the acupuncturists knew what condition the patients were being treated for. Seventy-six tinnitus patients were medically examined, evaluated for the severity of their tinnitus,then randomly divided into two groups. one group had acupuncture needles inserted in locations likely to help tinnitus. The other group had acupuncture needles inserted in otherpoints on the body. Both groups of patients reported some tinnitus reduction. But the group that got the "correct" treatment had a statistically significant greater reduction.
> Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I wish there were more studies like this. Barry - 17 Nov 2006 19:05 GMT I think that you have missed the point. This study does not mean anything. Tinnitus is a symptom of a very large number of conditions. The tinnitus varies from patient to patient in what they actually hear which is what you would expect since Tinnitus has many causes. The Idea that accupuncture would be effective against all cause of Tinnitus is not Voodoo it is quackery. If it was effective against one of the conditions that caused tinnitus it would be interesting but very unlikely. Why would it. It is in the same category as blood letting which was popular in this country for centuries and drinking your own urine.
I would like to know how you can do a double blind study using needles. The person sticking the needles in would know which was the non treatment and any informed subject or interested enough to find out would also know.
regards, Rodney
> Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I wish there were more studies like this. Jim Chinnis - 18 Nov 2006 00:40 GMT "Barry" <Rodney@home.com> wrote in part:
>I would like to know how you can do a double blind study using needles. >The person sticking the needles in would know which was the non treatment >and any informed subject or interested enough to find out would also know. There are difficulties, but actually some excellent double-blind and single-blind studies have been done of acupuncture and tinnitus.
One way to do a double blind study is to regard the acupuncturist as part of the treatment. The experimenter does not know who are the real acupuncturists and who are people trained to use the needles safely but not where to place them.
A single-blind approach has used electric needles that impart an electric charge (sometimes used these days in acupuncture, rather than needle insertions). The acupuncturists did not know if they were using real needles or fake ones.
Subject-blinded studies have been done where trained acupuncturists treat the subjects in all cases, but the control group has the nnedles inserted in the wrong places.
There are other blinding methods that have been used, as well.
Bottom line in all: acupuncture has been studied perhaps more than any other treatment and has been found not to work.
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
Mr. Y - 18 Nov 2006 01:47 GMT Says who? I would like to see a study that shows that acupuncture does not improve tinnitus more than the placebo effect of administering this treatement. And the important thing is that the results are statistically significant, with statistics calculated.
> "Barry" <Rodney@home.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > other > treatment and has been found not to work. Jim Chinnis - 18 Nov 2006 03:09 GMT "Mr. Y" <ndbanerjeevideos@insightbb.com> wrote in part:
>Says who? I would like to see a study that shows that acupuncture does not >improve tinnitus more than the placebo effect of administering this >treatement. And the important thing is that the results are statistically >significant, with statistics calculated. When a study is done and the effect of treatment isn't there...the result ISN'T statistically significant. The null hypothesis can't be rejected. No statistical study can REJECT a null hypothesis with a statistically significant result. I believe you are confused.
Are you talking instead about the POWER of the study re a clinically significant effect? I don't think so, but if you are, some of the studies could have detected very small effects...but they didn't.
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 21 Nov 2006 01:40 GMT "Jim Chinnis 写道:
snipped...
> Bottom line in all: acupuncture has been studied perhaps more than any other > treatment and has been found not to work. (1)Then what can explain the clinical experiences in which patients have found it to work? (2)What are the limitations of these 'blind' studies? (3)How do the limitations in (2) affect the authenticity of the findings from these studies?
Mr. Y - 18 Nov 2006 01:41 GMT People just throw up their arms and say that there is no one certain treatment for tinnitus and there are multiple causes. Although this is true, that does not mean that a treatment can not be found. But I think there is a pattern, it is just hidden in a lot of noise. Nobody questions this, nor did the study ever claim that acupuncture was effective for all forms of tinnitus.
Suppose a large number of people are given a treatment and people say it improves their tinnitus from 0 - 40%, with an average improvement of 20%. But the people will vary their answers from +- 20 % on a given day, and there is another 20% placebo effect. Does this mean that you can not extract useful information from this study? NO! The +-20% people change their answers will be averaged out in a large sample. The 20% placebo effect can be dealt with in a double blind study, or comparing to placebo effects from other experiments. Even if this treatment is only truly 5% effective, the treatment can be targeted at those who it was effective. For example, the treatment could be only 5% effective for T as a whole but 50% effective for those who have high pitched tinnitus.
If similar experiments are done, then these results can be averaged and the important information can be found. Then the treatment can be linked with the cause and the type of tinnitus. So even if it turns out that the above treatment only really improves tinnitus by 5%, one can focus on who this improved it for and refine the treatment.
Before you go saying that alternative treatments are not effective, you need data to show this. Otherwise, it is just one opinion against another. What is lacking is data showing that a treatment does not improve T, and the findings need to be statistically significant. That's useful information too. We don't want to chase treatments that don't work.
In general, I wish that I could get better doccumentation on all these studies, and that they would do a large enough sample size so that we can draw useful conclusions.
>I think that you have missed the point. This study does not mean anything. > Tinnitus is a symptom of a very large number of conditions. The [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> >> I wish there were more studies like this. Jim Chinnis - 18 Nov 2006 03:03 GMT "Mr. Y" <ndbanerjeevideos@insightbb.com> wrote in part:
>In general, I wish that I could get better doccumentation on all these >studies, and that they would do a large enough sample size so that we can >draw useful conclusions. What is preventing you? They are in PubMed. And in most cases, you can request reprints from the authors.
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
Elly Byrne - 18 Nov 2006 18:58 GMT >People just throw up their arms and say that there is no one certain >treatment for tinnitus and there are multiple causes. Although this is >true, that does not mean that a treatment can not be found. But I think >there is a pattern, it is just hidden in a lot of noise. There is a indeed pattern there. In the majority of cases there can be found a significant amount of muscular tension in the body. When this is addressed there can be a significant amount of change in the tinnitus.
http://eebee.net/TinnitusIsaPainintheNeck.shtml Elly.
Elly Byrne ---------- The Ultimate Supertip from Harvey Segal http://tinyurl.com/bg7h2
 Signature Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Janice - 20 Nov 2006 02:32 GMT It is hard to compete with a scientifically based tesing procedure whereby 100% of the tested group had no success with accupunture. Trouble is the sample size appears to be one, in this case.
I have contrary, documented evidence with my own sample group of one, with a complete success for accupunture curing tinnitus. The documentation can be found in this paragraph.
>>People just throw up their arms and say that there is no one certain >>treatment for tinnitus and there are multiple causes. Although this [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > from Harvey Segal > http://tinyurl.com/bg7h2 fyfpoon@gmail.com - 20 Nov 2006 12:11 GMT It was acupuncture that saved me from a tormenting illness. The cause of my tinnitus was unknown at that time but the acupuncture operation might have touched a part of my head that was directly related to my tinnitus.
A double blind or single blind study is a study and like any other study has its limitations. It is these limitations that have prevented this kind of studies from becoming God.
"Janice 写道: "
> It is hard to compete with a scientifically based tesing procedure > whereby 100% of the tested group had no success with accupunture. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > -- > > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Janice - 21 Nov 2006 00:52 GMT Studies can initiate personal testing for myself but the real test is trying it. I find personal experience abd testimonies from people I know much more valuable and true than studies that have been concocted by some drug pushing pharma giant.
It was acupuncture that saved me from a tormenting illness. The cause of my tinnitus was unknown at that time but the acupuncture operation might have touched a part of my head that was directly related to my tinnitus.
A double blind or single blind study is a study and like any other study has its limitations. It is these limitations that have prevented this kind of studies from becoming God.
"Janice дµÀ£º "
> It is hard to compete with a scientifically based tesing procedure > whereby 100% of the tested group had no success with accupunture. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > -- > > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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