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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / September 2006Equitab??
I came across an ad for Equitab, a blend of "ginkgo extracts, dried rhizome of ginger, kelp, and cayenne." Reportly, good for tinnitus and vertigo. I'm not rushing out to buy some, but any comments on this product? Might be just another herbal blend.  SignatureDave C. > I came across an ad for Equitab, a blend of "ginkgo extracts, dried rhizome > of ginger, kelp, and cayenne." Reportly, good for tinnitus and vertigo. > > I'm not rushing out to buy some, but any comments on this product? Might be > just another herbal blend. That's a new one here, Dave. If it isn't independently tested and certified, I'd worry about the quality and quantity of the contents. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Susan Thanks, Susan. I am not excited about this at all.....but the word Equitab sounded so impressive. I personnally am not interested for reason that you mentioned. Dave >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Dave sounds like an insurance firm to me........:) your the prick that slags off disabled people, and you have tinnitus I am very pleased to see you have a disablement yourself, as they say there bit the grace of god go you. I hope you will never be cured after talking badly about disabled people Signature" You three are a right pair if I've ever seen one" > >> x-no-archive: yes > >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > sounds like an insurance firm to me........:) > your the prick that slags off disabled people, and you have tinnitus > > I am very pleased to see you have a disablement yourself, as they say there > bit the grace of god go you. I hope you will never be cured after talking > badly about disabled people proof please? and do stop stalking me across usenet,theres a good chap. > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >> I'm not rushing out to buy some, but any comments on this product? Might > >> be just another herbal blend. I'm always just a bit wary about ginkgo- not convinced that the possible (and I mean possible) benefit is worth the risk of possible serious side effects, notably hemorrhages (brain). Granted the risks are small but they are present. As for the kelp, cayenne and ginger- all are available at any health food store and likely at a fraction of the cost of their "formula". None of these, as far as I know have any side effects and are safe to use. One always has to be aware of the hype with these products. But I personnaly wouldn't spend the money on this product. Good luck with what your decision. frank > I'm always just a bit wary about ginkgo- not convinced that > the possible (and I mean possible) benefit is worth the risk of > possible serious side effects, notably hemorrhages (brain). > Granted the risks are small but they are present. Are you equally wary of oily fish, fish oil, aspirin, vitamin C and garlic? > As for the kelp, cayenne and ginger- all are available at > any health food store and likely at a fraction of the cost [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > products. But I personnaly wouldn't spend the money > on this product. Good luck with what your decision. Years ago, SMN posted an evaluation of Ginkgo products and said one in particular, Ginkgold seemed to be well standardized and suggested that those wanting to do a trial should perhaps use it. Anything strong enough to help is strong enough to hurt if you're not wise and informed. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are you equally wary of oily fish, fish oil, aspirin, vitamin C and > garlic? I've never seen a retinal hemorrhage due to vit c/asa/fish oil but I have with gingko. The bleeds weren't pleasant. I've also have talked with physicians who have had patients with cerebral hemorrhages due to ginkgo. I think most experts would rank gingko over the above (ie vit c,asa) with the greater side effect of hemorrhage (assuming of course one doesnt take a whole bottle of aspirin at one time). The biggest side effect of fish oil is fish breath. frank > I've never seen a retinal hemorrhage due to vit c/asa/fish oil > but I have with gingko. The bleeds weren't pleasant. Are you 100% sure that the patient wasn't consuming any of the above, or vitamin E, for that matter? Or did they overdose on Ginkgo? That's very different than taking a well researched dose without other contraindications. > I've also have talked with physicians who have had patients > with cerebral hemorrhages due to ginkgo. I think most [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > The biggest side effect of fish oil is fish breath. Not true, Frank, many folks detect easy bruising at even low doses. I never get fish breath from it, but I notice that when I lance for my blood glucose tests, it's hard to control the amount of blood as opposed to how hard it is to get a droplet without fish oil. In fact, it has been associated with higher stroke incidence. It's a powerful antithrombotic. No question that supplements should be taken with great caution and research, just like meds and medical care, IMO. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Not true, Frank, many folks detect easy bruising at even low doses. It must be a genetic thing. Norwegians have eaten lots of fish oil for ages, but they don't seem to bruise easily. > I never get fish breath from it, but I notice that when I lance for my > blood glucose tests, it's hard to control the amount of blood as opposed > to how hard it is to get a droplet without fish oil. In fact, it has > been associated with higher stroke incidence. Eating fish oil reduces the risk of stroke. <http://www.mercola.com/2003/jan/8/fish_oil_stroke.htm> <http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010117075510.htm> >It's a powerful antithrombotic. > > No question that supplements should be taken with great caution and > research, just like meds and medical care, IMO. > > Susan Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: >Not true, Frank, many folks detect easy bruising at even low doses. >I never get fish breath from it, but I notice that when I lance for my >blood glucose tests, it's hard to control the amount of blood as opposed >to how hard it is to get a droplet without fish oil. In fact, it has >been associated with higher stroke incidence. It's a powerful >antithrombotic. I take fish oil, and I've read most of the quality research literature. I came to the conclusion that the antithrombotic effect is real but very slight. Not that it has anything to do with tinnitus. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > I take fish oil, and I've read most of the quality research literature. I > came to the conclusion that the antithrombotic effect is real but very > slight. > > Not that it has anything to do with tinnitus. I take it, too, and it's not a slight effect, even with only one capsule, when I lance for bg tests. My sister and others I've heard from bruise with only one dose. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Susan I always thought bruising was caused by broken blood veins. Bruising isn't caused by thin blood, is it? > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > very different than taking a well researched dose without other > contraindications. The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that I'll be dead one day. So I can't say 100% that the bleeds were caused by the gingko .The one guy I remember was taking the gingko for memory loss. He couldn't remember how much he was taking (there must be some irony in that) immediately up to his episode. > Not true, Frank, many folks detect easy bruising at even low doses. > I never get fish breath from it, but I notice that when I lance for my > blood glucose tests, it's hard to control the amount of blood as opposed > to how hard it is to get a droplet without fish oil. In fact, it has > been associated with higher stroke incidence. It's a powerful > antithrombotic. I've been taking 1000 mg of salmon oil (omega 3) for years on advice from my internist who stated the benefits included lower cholestorol/ldl levels as well as improved cardiovascular functioning (lower incidence of heart attacks, strokes) as there is a very strong family hx of heart disease in my family. May be a case of dueling studies, I don't know. Also been on 1000 mg of vit c for many years (not a cold or uri in 10 yrs). With that, I still think I'm at a much less risk for a cerebral hemorrhage than on gingko. But I've heard of people dropping over dead from a cva without any warning. When it's your time to go, well................. frank frank > The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that I'll be dead one day. > So I can't say 100% that the bleeds were caused by the > gingko .The one guy I remember was taking the gingko for > memory loss. He couldn't remember how much he was taking > (there must be some irony in that) immediately up to > his episode. He may have been confused enough to take too much, and may've failed to report other supplements he took with it. > I've been taking 1000 mg of salmon oil (omega 3) for years on > advice from my internist who stated the benefits included lower [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of dueling studies, I don't know. Also been on 1000 mg of > vit c for many years (not a cold or uri in 10 yrs). I haven't seen much on other than TGL lowering with fish oil, and reduced inflammation. You may be interested in the completely atoxic stuff I take; lowered my LDL 70 points lickety split, saw an uptick in my HDL to 70. It had already doubled from a decade of 34 to 68 when I switched to low carb diet. [Evaluation of the cholesterol-lowering effectiveness of pantethine in women in perimenopausal age] [Article in Italian] Binaghi P, Cellina G, Lo Cicero G, Bruschi F, Porcaro E, Penotti M. Servizio di Cardiologia, Istitut Clinici di Perfezionamento, Milano. Cardiovascular diseases are the main cause of death also in women. Their incidence, rapidly growing in the peri-menopausal period, is related to serum levels of total cholesterol and its LDL fraction. It was also shown that the peroxidation of LDL is an additional factor in the genesis of atherosclerotic vascular disease. As long-term treatments with synthetic lipid-lowering drugs may cause undesirable side effects, while pantethine is known to be well tolerated, we treated 24 hypercholesterolemic women (total serum cholesterol greater than or equal to 240 mg/dl), in perimenopausal age (range: 45-55 years, mean +/- SD = 51.6 +/- 2.4) with 900 mg/day of pantethine. This is a precursor of coenzyme A, with an antiperoxidation effect in vivo, and our aim was to confirm its lipid lowering activity in this particular type of patients. After 16 weeks of treatment, significant reductions of total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol and LDL-C/HDL-C ratio could be observed. No remarkable changes of the main laboratory parameters (fasting blood sugar, B.U.N., creatinine, uric acid) were seen. Efficacy percentages of the treatment were about 80%. None of the patients complained of adverse reactions due to the treatment with pantethine. In conclusion, we suggest that pantethine should be considered in the long-term treatment of lipid derangements occurring in the perimenopausal age. PMID: 2359503 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Acta Biomed Ateneo Parmense. 1984;55(1):25-42. Related Articles, Links [Hyperlipidemia, diabetes and atherosclerosis: efficacy of treatment with pantethine] [Article in Italian] Arsenio L, Caronna S, Lateana M, Magnati G, Strata A, Zammarchi G. The hypolipidemizing effects of Pantethine were investigated by the Authors in 37 hypercholesterolemic and/or hypertriglyceridemic patients. Of these, 21 were also diabetic, in a satisfying glucidic compensation, in order to verify the action of this drug also in this metabolic condition. The study was carried out for three months and during this period the patients were given Pantethine at the dose of 600 mg/die orally. At the 30th, the 60th, the 90th day of treatment the following parameters were controlled: cholesterolemia, HDL cholesterol, apolipoproteins A and B, triglyceridemia, systolic and diastolic arterial pressure, uricemia, body weight. Thirty days after suspending the treatment, the parameters were controlled again to detect a possible "rebound" effect. The results were analyzed on the whole case-record, subdividing the patients in dislipidemic and diabetic-dislipidemic, and on the basis of the Fredrickson's classification. Pantethine induced in all groups a quick and progressive decrease of cholesterolemia, triglyceridemia, LDL cholesterol and Apolipoproteins B with increased HDL cholesterol and Apolipoproteins A. After suspending the treatment, there is a clear inversion of the state of these parameters. The Authors conclude that the present work shows that Pantethine, a natural and atoxic substance, an important component of Coenzyme A, is efficacious in determining a clear tendency towards normalization of the lipidic values. PMID: 6232801 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Atherosclerosis. 1984 Jan;50(1):73-83. Related Articles, Links Controlled evaluation of pantethine, a natural hypolipidemic compound, in patients with different forms of hyperlipoproteinemia. Gaddi A, Descovich GC, Noseda G, Fragiacomo C, Colombo L, Craveri A, Montanari G, Sirtori CR. Pantethine (P), the stable disulphate form of pantetheine, major component and precursor of coenzyme A, was evaluated within a double-blind protocol (8 weeks for P or for a corresponding placebo) in 29 patients, 11 with type IIB hyperlipoproteinemia, 15 with type IV, and 3 with an isolated reduction of high density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) levels. In type IIB patients, P (300 mg t.i.d.) determined a highly significant lowering of plasma total and low density lipoprotein (LDL) associated cholesterol (-13.5% for both parameters). In the same patients, HDL-C levels increased about 10% at the end of treatment. Switching from P to placebo was associated with a rapid return to the baseline cholesterolemia. Both in type IIB and type IV patients, plasma triglyceride levels were reduced around 30%, when P was given as the first treatment; when it was preceded by placebo, reductions were less striking (respectively, -17.8% for type IIB and -13.0% for type IV, at the end of P treatment). HDL-C levels were not increased by P, either in type IV, and in the patients with low HDL cholesterolemia. In type IV, LDL cholesterol levels showed a variable response to P: they tended to increase when below 132 mg/dl, prior to treatment, and to be reduced when above this level. This study provides evidence for a significant hypocholesterolemic effect of P, a natural compound free of overt side effects. It also indicates that P may raise HDL-C levels in type IIB patients, while moderately reducing triglyceridemia. Publication Types: • Clinical Trial • Controlled Clinical Trial PMID: 6365107 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther Toxicol. 1986 Nov;24(11):630-7. Related Articles, Links Lipoprotein changes induced by pantethine in hyperlipoproteinemic patients: adults and children. Bertolini S, Donati C, Elicio N, Daga A, Cuzzolaro S, Marcenaro A, Saturnino M, Balestreri R. Following a brief outline of current knowledge concerning atherosclerosis and its treatment, the authors describe the results obtained by treating with pantethine (900-1200 mg daily for 3 to 6 months) a series of 7 children and 65 adults suffering from hypercholesterolemia alone or associated with hypertriglyceridemia (types IIa and IIb of Fredrickson's classification). Pantethine treatment produced significant reduction of the better known risk factors (total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol, triglycerides, and apo-B) and a significant increase of HDL-cholesterol (signally HDL2) and apolipoprotein A-I. The authors conclude with a discussion of these results and of the possible role of pantethine in the treatment of hyperlipoproteinemia, in view of its perfect tolerability and demonstrated therapeutic effectiveness. PMID: 3098691 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] : Atherosclerosis. 1984 Dec;53(3):255-64. Related Articles, Links Pantethine reduces plasma cholesterol and the severity of arterial lesions in experimental hypercholesterolemic rabbits. Carrara P, Matturri L, Galbussera M, Lovati MR, Franceschini G, Sirtori CR. Pantethine (P), a coenzyme A precursor, was administered to cholesterol-fed rabbits (0.5% cholesterol diet + 1% pantethine) for 90 days. At the end of treatment, plasma total cholesterol levels were reduced 64.7% and the HDL/total cholesterol ratio increased in P-treated animals; a significant rise of the apo A-I/A-II ratio was detected in HDL. VLDL lipid and protein levels were, on the other hand, reduced by P. The cholesterol-ester content of both liver and aortic tissues was not significantly affected by P. Although the total aortic area with evident plaques was reduced only 18.2%, the microscopical examination of sections from the major vessels of P-treated animals, showed a reduction in the severity of lesions, both in the aorta and in the coronary arteries. These findings suggest that P, in addition to significantly lowering plasma cholesterol levels in rabbits on an experimental diet, may modify lipid deposition in major arteries, possibly by affecting lipoprotein composition and/or exerting an arterial protective effect. PMID: 6442152 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Clin Ther. 1986;8(5):537-45. Related Articles, Links Effectiveness of long-term treatment with pantethine in patients with dyslipidemia. Arsenio L, Bodria P, Magnati G, Strata A, Trovato R. A one-year clinical trial with pantethine was conducted in 24 patients with established dyslipidemia of Fredrickson's types II A, II B, and IV, alone or associated with diabetes mellitus. The treatment was well tolerated by all patients with no subjective complaints or detectable side effects. Blood lipid assays repeated after 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12 months of treatment revealed consistent and statistically significant reductions of all atherogenic lipid fractions (total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and apolipoprotein B) with parallel increases of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and apolipoprotein A. The results were equally good in patients with uncomplicated dyslipidemia and in those with associated diabetes mellitus. The authors conclude that pantethine (a drug entity related to the natural compound, pantetheine) represents a valid therapeutic support for patients with dyslipidemia not amenable to satisfactory correction of blood lipids by diet alone. PMID: 3094958 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Acta Biomed Ateneo Parmense. 1987;58(5-6):143-52. Related Articles, Links [Clinical use of pantethine by parenteral route in the treatment of hyperlipidemia] [Article in Italian] Arsenio L, Bodria P, Bossi S, Lateana M, Strata A. Servizio di Malattie del Ricambio e Diabetologia, Ospedali Riuniti, Parma. Recent investigations have confirmed the effectiveness and the excellent tolerability of pantethine, a derivative of pantetheine, an essential part of the acetylation coenzyme CoA, administered P.O., in normalizing the blood lipid concentrations of patients with hyperlipidemias. A group of 18 patients with hyperlipidemias (9 M, 9 F), with an average age of 52.6 years, was submitted to pantethine parenteral treatment. After a 20 days wash-out, pantethine (400 mg/day; BID) was administered intramuscularly, for 20 days. Total cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL-cholesterol, apo A-1 and B lipoprotein, uric acid in serum, glycemia, CBC, B.U.N., creatininemia, E.S.R., SGOT, SGPT, bilirubinemia, cardiac frequency, blood pressure and body weight were controlled before and after treatment. The drug showed to have a therapeutic effectiveness by a rapid and significant improvement in the blood lipid pattern with reduction of total cholesterol, triglycerides and apo-B lipoprotein and increase of HDL-cholesterol and apo A-1 lipoprotein. The tolerability of pantethine at the stated dosage and mode of administration was invariably excellent, with non complaints or visible side effects imputable to the test drug. BUN, creatininemia, glycemia, SGOT, SGPT, bilirubinemia, E.S.R., CBC, cardiac frequency and blood pressure readings showed no noteworthy changes throughout the study. PMID: 2970754 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Vopr Pitan. 1987 Mar-Apr;(2):15-7. Related Articles, Links [Therapeutic efficacy of pantothenic acid preparations in ischemic heart disease patients] [Article in Russian] Borets VM, Lis MA, Pyrochkin VM, Kishkovich VP, Butkevich ND. The therapeutic effectiveness of the pantothenic acid drugs: calciipantothenas and pantethine, was studied in 182 patients with coronary heart disease and stable angina of effort. It is shown that both the drugs produce favourable effects on certain parameters of hemodynamics, on the metabolism of lipids, riboflavin and ascorbic acid. It is recommended that the administration of calciipantothenas in a dose of 300 mg/day, during 3 weeks, be included into the combined treatment of coronary patients with no manifest disorders of lipid metabolism. Patients with manifest hyperlipidemia should be administered pantethine in a dose of 500 mg/day. PMID: 3590676 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Clin Nephrol. 1986 Feb;25(2):70-4. Related Articles, Links Pantethine improves the lipid abnormalities of chronic hemodialysis patients: results of a multicenter clinical trial. Donati C, Barbi G, Cairo G, Prati GF, Degli Esposti E. In the course of a post-marketing surveillance program on the effectiveness and tolerability of pantethine in the treatment of hyperlipidemia, the effects of the drug were explored in 31 patients with dyslipidemia undergoing chronic hemodialysis. The mean duration of treatment was 9 months (min. 7 months, max. 24 months), with oral doses of 600 to 1200 mg of pantethine daily (mean daily dosage 970 mg). Improvement was noted in terms of total blood cholesterol in the 7 patients with basal hypercholesterolemia (p less than 0.01) and highly significant reduction of serum triglycerides. No variations of HDL-cholesterol or total Apo-A were detected. None of the patients experienced any adverse effects from the treatment. In the light of extensive experience with the drug, plus the results of this study, the authors conclude by stressing the importance of an effective and readily tolerated product, such as pantethine, for the treatment of dyslipidemia in patients on chronic hemodialysis. Publication Types: • Clinical Trial PMID: 3516477 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Artery. 1987;15(1):1-12. Related Articles, Links Lowering effect of pantethine on plasma beta-thromboglobulin and lipids in diabetes mellitus. Eto M, Watanabe K, Chonan N, Ishii K. Second Department of Internal Medicine, Asahikawa Medical College, Japan. Pantethine in a dosage of 600 mg for the first 3 months, and in a dosage of 1200 mg for the second 6 months was given to 16 diabetics in whom plasma beta-thromboglobulin was raised (greater than 50 ng/ml). Plasma beta-TG levels decreased significantly with pantethine treatment for 9 months. Plasma triglyceride, total cholesterol, apo E and apo CII levels decreased significantly after 9 months. Plasma LDL-C and atherogenic index (LDL-C/HDL-C ratio or apo B/apo AI ratio) tended to decrease with treatment. It is concluded that administration of pantethine may be beneficial in the prevention of diabetic angiopathy because of its lowering effect on plasma beta-TG, lipids and apolipoproteins. PMID: 2963604 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Ter Arkh. 1991;63(11):58-60. Related Articles, Links [The use of pantothenic acid preparations in treating patients with viral hepatitis A] [Article in Russian] Komar VI. Calcium pantothemate in the daily dose 300 mg and 600 mg and pantetheine in the dose 90 mg and 180 mg per os were applied for 3-4 weeks in combined therapy of 156 patients with viral hepatitis A. In addition to the positive clinico-biochemical effect, these drugs produced an immunomodulatory action and a beneficial effect on the level of blood serum immunoglobulins and the phagocytic activity of peripheral blood neutrophils. Pantetheine provided the most pronounced therapeutic effect. PMID: 1810066 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Clin Ter. 1989 Mar 31;128(6):411-22. Related Articles, Links [Pantethine, diabetes mellitus and atherosclerosis. Clinical study of 1045 patients] [Article in Italian] Donati C, Bertieri RS, Barbi G. After a review of the clinical studies on the treatment of diabetic patients with pantethine, the authors discuss the results obtained in a postmarketing surveillance (PMS) study on 1045 hyperlipidemic patients receiving pantethine (900 mg/day on average). Of these patients, 57 were insulin-dependent (Type I) and 241 were non insulin-dependent (Type II) diabetics. Beyond the epidemiological considerations made possible by a PMS study, the authors show that pantethine brought about a statistically significant and comparable improvement of lipid metabolism in the three groups of patients, with very good tolerability. Pantethine should therefore be considered for the treatment of lipid abnormalities also in patients at risk such as those with diabetes mellitus. PMID: 2524328 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Vopr Pitan. 1983;(1):45-9. Related Articles, Links [Pantothenic acid metabolic disorder and its relation to the change in energy processes in patients with ischemic heart disease and hypertension] [Article in Russian] Borets VM, Ovchinnikov VA, Mironchik VV, Moiseenok AG, Lis MA. Pantothenic acid metabolism and the status of energy processes in leukocytes were examined in 171 patients with hypertension and coronary heart disease. It was shown that the patients' body supply with the vitamin decreased as the disease progressed and heart failure supervened. The deficiency of pantothenic acid was shown to be interrelated with the impairment of energy processes. Application of pantothenate in a dose of 200 mg a day for two weeks led to the increased content of pantothenic acid and to normalization of energy processes. PMID: 6837001 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Angiology. 1987 Mar;38(3):241-7. Related Articles, Links Effect of oral treatment with pantethine on platelet and plasma phospholipids in IIa hyperlipoproteinemia. Prisco D, Rogasi PG, Matucci M, Paniccia R, Abbate R, Gensini GF, Neri Serneri GG. In a single-blind, crossover, completely randomized study, the effects of oral treatment with pantethine or placebo on fatty acid composition of plasma and platelet phospholipids were investigated in 10 IIa hyperlipoproteinemic patients. A significant decrease of total cholesterol and total phospholipids was observed both in plasma and in platelets after a twenty-eight-day treatment. In plasma, pantethine induced a decrease of the ratio sphingomyelin/phosphatidylcholine. Moreover, a relative increase of n3-polyunsaturated fatty acids both in plasma and in platelet phospholipids and a decrease of arachidonic acid in plasma phospholipids were observed. These results indicate that pantethine can affect plasma and platelet lipid composition with possibly favorable influences on the determinants of cell membrane fluidity. Publication Types: • Clinical Trial • Randomized Controlled Trial PMID: 3551695 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > With that, I still think I'm at a much less risk for a cerebral > hemorrhage than on gingko. But I've heard of people dropping > over dead from a cva without any warning. When it's > your time to go, well................. Lots of those folks drop dead with "normal" cholesterol levels. Keep an eye on the TGL and HDL for better risk prediction: Ann Epidemiol. 2005 May;15(5):405-13. Related Articles, Links A comparison of lipid variables as predictors of cardiovascular disease in the Asia Pacific region. Barzi F, Patel A, Woodward M, Lawes CM, Ohkubo T, Gu D, Lam TH, Ueshima H; Asia Pacific Cohort Studies Collaboration. The George Institute for International Health, University of Sydney, Camperdown, NSW 2050, Australia. fbarzi@thegeorgeinstitute.org PURPOSE: Many guidelines advocate measurement of total or low density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL), high density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL), and triglycerides (TG) to determine treatment recommendations for preventing coronary heart disease (CHD) and cardiovascular disease (CVD). This analysis is a comparison of lipid variables as predictors of cardiovascular disease. METHODS: Hazard ratios for coronary and cardiovascular deaths by fourths of total cholesterol (TC), LDL, HDL, TG, non-HDL, TC/HDL, and TG/HDL values, and for a one standard deviation change in these variables, were derived in an individual participant data meta-analysis of 32 cohort studies conducted in the Asia-Pacific region. The predictive value of each lipid variable was assessed using the likelihood ratio statistic. RESULTS: Adjusting for confounders and regression dilution, each lipid variable had a positive (negative for HDL) log-linear association with fatal CHD and CVD. Individuals in the highest fourth of each lipid variable had approximately twice the risk of CHD compared with those with lowest levels. TG and HDL were each better predictors of CHD and CVD risk compared with TC alone, with test statistics similar to TC/HDL and TG/HDL ratios. Calculated LDL was a relatively poor predictor. CONCLUSIONS: While LDL reduction remains the main target of intervention for lipid-lowering, these data support the potential use of TG or lipid ratios for CHD risk prediction. PMID: 15840555 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Susan > I haven't seen much on other than TGL lowering with fish oil, and > reduced inflammation. You may be interested in the completely atoxic > stuff I take; lowered my LDL 70 points lickety split, saw an uptick in > my HDL to 70. It had already doubled from a decade of 34 to 68 when I > switched to low carb diet. I'm kind of lucky that my current trig is 25 and total chol is 120 so I'm taking the salmon oil for the other benefits.I guess I do low carb as well (not Atkins or anything like that) in that I don't eat any sweets, bread, pasta etc. but mainly eat salads, fish and poultry. The only thing I'd like to do would be to increase my HDL levels. frank > I'm kind of lucky that my current trig is 25 and total chol is > 120 so I'm taking the salmon oil for the other benefits. Lucky, or medicated? I guess > I do low carb as well (not Atkins or anything like that) > in that I don't eat any sweets, bread, pasta etc. but > mainly eat salads, fish and poultry. The only thing > I'd like to do would be to increase my HDL levels. That is like Atkins, FYI. To a T. Just not the Atkins that opponents like you to think it is. Susan > x-no-archive: Yes > > > I'm kind of lucky that my current trig is 25 and total chol is > > 120 so I'm taking the salmon oil for the other benefits. > > Lucky, or medicated? Lucky I guess (the only "meds" I'm taking for this would be the omega-3). > > I do low carb as well (not Atkins or anything like that) > > in that I don't eat any sweets, bread, pasta etc. but [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Susan Please don''t assume or presume anything. I think Atkins got it right with the low carb lifestyle. If anything, I'm a proponent and I've been on low carb long before the Atkins craze hit. But I did it intuitively and before I knew much about Atkins or his diet. It was interesting to see all the backlash when it was in full swing. Sure was polarizing. But I've had people tell me I'm not on Atkins because of all the vegetables I eat but I think it's all semantics. frank Some feel most of the results from Atkins and similar diets was not from the low carb effect as much as the low gluten or low grain intake. This is slowly becoming apparent to many. Carbs are a necessary part of human intake and humans do not survive well without them. We just have to pick better carbs. >> Please don''t assume or presume anything. I think Atkins got > it right with the low carb lifestyle. If anything, I'm a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > frank > Some feel most of the results from Atkins and similar diets was not > from the low carb effect as much as the low gluten or low grain > intake. This is slowly becoming apparent to many. No, it's the hormones. Insulin promotes inflammation and atherogenesis. > Carbs are a necessary part of human intake and humans do not survive > well without them. We just have to pick better carbs. There is absolutely no essential carbohydrate in human nutrition, biologically, only essential fats and proteins. Without those you die, without carbs, you live. Humans survive just fine, even better without carbs, particularly all starches. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > There is absolutely no essential carbohydrate in human nutrition, > biologically, That depends on how active you are. If you burn a lot of energy during the day, because of training or other strenuous activity, you have to consume carbohydrates. Primitive man, who was quite active, did consume carbohydrates. > only essential fats and proteins. Without those you die, > without carbs, you live. Humans survive just fine, even better without > carbs, particularly all starches. > > Susan > That depends on how active you are. If you burn a lot of energy during > the day, because of training or other strenuous activity, you have to > consume carbohydrates. Primitive man, who was quite active, did consume > carbohydrates. Good research with high performance athletes shows that to be false. Even if it were true, one could avoid dietary carbs and just use a dextrose sports drink during a workout. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Good research with high performance athletes shows that to be false. I don't think research shows that to be false. It depends on the amount, frequency, and type of training. Nor are carbohydrates bad for you. Human beings have always eaten carbohydrates. Refined sugar is bad for you, and refined flour, but carbohydrates in general are healthy. > Even if it were true, one could avoid dietary carbs and just use a > dextrose sports drink during a workout. Dextrose is a carbohydrate. If you eat it, it is a dietary carbohydrate. x-no-archive: yesMetabolism. 1983 Aug;32(8):769-76. Related Articles, Links The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capability with reduced carbohydrate oxidation. Phinney SD, Bistrian BR, Evans WJ, Gervino E, Blackburn GL. To study the effect of chronic ketosis on exercise performance in endurance-trained humans, five well-trained cyclists were fed a eucaloric balanced diet (EBD) for one week providing 35-50 kcal/kg/d, 1.75 g protein/kg/d and the remainder of kilocalories as two-thirds carbohydrate (CHO) and one-third fat. This was followed by four weeks of a eucaloric ketogenic diet (EKD), isocaloric and isonitrogenous with the EBD but providing less than 20 g CHO daily. Both diets were appropriately supplemented to meet the recommended daily allowances for vitamins and minerals. Pedal ergometer testing of maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) was unchanged between the control week (EBD-1) and week 3 of the ketogenic diet (EKD-3). The mean ergometer endurance time for continuous exercise to exhaustion (ENDUR) at 62%-64% of VO2max was 147 minutes at EBD-1 and 151 minutes at EKD-4. The ENDUR steady-state RQ dropped from 0.83 to 0.72 (P less than 0.01) from EBD-1 to EKD-4. In agreement with this were a three-fold drop in glucose oxidation (from 15.1 to 5.1 mg/kg/min, P less than 0.05) and a four-fold reduction in muscle glycogen use (0.61 to 0.13 mmol/kg/min, P less than 0.01). Neither clinical nor biochemical evidence of hypoglycemia was observed during ENDUR at EKD-4. These results indicate that aerobic endurance exercise by well-trained cyclists was not compromised by four weeks of ketosis. This was accomplished by a dramatic physiologic adaptation that conserved limited carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle substrate at this submaximal power level. PMID: 6865776 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > I don't think research shows that to be false. It depends on the amount, > frequency, and type of training. Nor are carbohydrates bad for you. > Human beings have always eaten carbohydrates. Refined sugar is bad for > you, and refined flour, but carbohydrates in general are healthy. Like I said, it depends on the nature and intensity of the training. 1. The subjects were already "well-trained." 2. They were all cyclists, who use primarily the big muscles in the legs. 3. They did the exercise to exhaustion test. That's only one kind of training. 4. The experiment studied the effects on endurance-trained athletes, not sprinters. 5. The conclusion applies to "aerobic endurance exercise by well-trained cyclists." 6. To achieve this result, which is specific to ENDURANCE training, these athletes had to undergo "a dramatic physiologic adaptation that conserved limited carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle substrate AT THIS SUBMAXIMAL POWER LEVEL." [emphasis mine] > x-no-archive: yesMetabolism. 1983 Aug;32(8):769-76. Related > Articles, Links [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Human beings have always eaten carbohydrates. Refined sugar is bad for > > you, and refined flour, but carbohydrates in general are healthy. > Like I said, it depends on the nature and intensity of the training. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and made fat the predominant muscle substrate AT THIS SUBMAXIMAL POWER > LEVEL." [emphasis mine] Just what I expected; thinking rooted in cement. Bye. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Just what I expected; thinking rooted in cement. Yes, indeed. Your thinking is rooted in cement. You tried to apply the specific result of this narrowly defined experiment to training in general. You can't legitimately do that. Sprint training is far different from endurance training. Upper body training, as in swimming, is far different from lower body training, as in cycling. The conclusion of the experiment does not disagree with what I said. It disagrees with what you said. I've done the Atkins diet. I am an athlete. I have spoken to other athletes who have used low-carb diets. Every athlete I speak to about this subject says their performance was adversely affected. But I normally talk to swimmers. Swimming is an upper body exercise. The Atkins diet is effective for losing weight. Ony temporarily. The diet cannot be maintained due to health problems and the weight returns faster than any other method I have seen. > In article <4l5pr1Fcs77U1@individual.net>, Susan > <nevermind@nomail.com> > wrote: > The Atkins diet is effective for losing weight. > Ony temporarily. The diet cannot be maintained due to health problems > and the weight returns faster than any other method I have seen. There is no such thing as permanent weight loss, so, temporarily, of course. And the weight returning has nothing to do with the way it was taken off. Obviously, if you return to the eating habits and lack of exercise that made you blimp in the first place, you will blimp out again. The diet works for losing weight. That's all it is supposed to do. > > In article <4l5pr1Fcs77U1@individual.net>, Susan > > <nevermind@nomail.com> > > wrote: > > > The Atkins diet is effective for losing weight. Not ture. Diets that teach good eating habits tend to last longer than diets that do not. Low carb diets teach nothing except less hunger due to more protein intake. Ex LC dieters do gain the weight back faster from the several dozen cases I have seen and they all admit it. >> Ony temporarily. The diet cannot be maintained due to health >> problems [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> > The Atkins diet is effective for losing weight. > Not ture. Diets that teach good eating habits tend to last longer than > diets that do not. Obviously true but irrelevant. The claim was that the Atkins diet is effective for LOSING WEIGHT. Furthermore, The the final stage of the Atkins diet is based on good eating habits, completely in line with your definition of good eating habits. > Low carb diets teach nothing except less hunger due > to more protein intake. Ex LC dieters do gain the weight back faster > from the several dozen cases I have seen and they all admit it. Nope. That's false. Read the specification for the Atkins diet. The diet doesn't require more protein intake. It requires a higher percentage of protein intake, as well as fat intake - for LOSING WEIGHT. Carbohydrates are gradually increased, thus lowering the percentages of protein and fat again, until weight loss stops and weight does not rise. In the final, ongoing stage, only high glycemic sugars are disallowed, which they should be anyway, since they provide nothing but calories. And stop top posting. > >> Ony temporarily. The diet cannot be maintained due to health > >> problems [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >> > >> > The Atkins diet is effective for losing weight. All your retorts are only quoting the Atkin's theories and have no basis of testing. Many of these have been disproven or disqualified. Many scientifically based tests have been completed to find out how it works and the fats were just wrong and a health hazard. The increased protein intake was the key. The end result was that LC dieters ate less calories in controlled testing. I can read either style of posting. Stop bitching as a distraction. >> Not ture. Diets that teach good eating habits tend to last longer >> than [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> >> >> >> > The Atkins diet is effective for losing weight. > All your retorts are only quoting the Atkin's theories and have no > basis of testing. Actually, I haven't quoted any Atkins material at all. > Many of these have been disproven or disqualified. Nothing I have said has been disproved or disqualified. > Many scientifically based tests have been completed to find out how it > works and the fats were just wrong and a health hazard. The increased > protein intake was the key. There isn't any absolute increase in fat. It is a percentage increase, and there is nothing unhealthy about it unless you were already eating too much fat. > The end result was that LC dieters ate less calories in controlled > testing. That's right. Or they increased exercise. Or both. and they increased intake of water. And they eliminated refined sugar and white flour entirely. And they increased fiber. And they used a vitamin supplement. That's the diet, and it works for losing weight. > I can read either style of posting. Stop bitching as a distraction. Take your own advice. > >> Not ture. Diets that teach good eating habits tend to last longer > >> than [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > >> >> > >> >> > The Atkins diet is effective for losing weight. Buh bye now. >> All your retorts are only quoting the Atkin's theories and have no >> basis of testing. [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] >> >> >> >> >> >> > The Atkins diet is effective for losing weight. > Lucky I guess (the only "meds" I'm taking for this would be > the omega-3). Cool beanz! Low carbing really helps with lipids, too. > Please don''t assume or presume anything. I think Atkins got > it right with the low carb lifestyle. If anything, I'm a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to see all the backlash when it was in full swing. > Sure was polarizing. Sure was. I wasn't presuming anything, just addressing a common misconception about Atkins. I don't follow his or anyone's plan. > But I've had people tell me I'm not on Atkins because of all > the vegetables I eat but I think it's all semantics. Yet low carbers eat more vegetables than anyone, and that includes the Atkins diet. You have to replace all those calorie dense, nutritionally impoverished starches with something besides olive oil. :-) Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Atkins diet. You have to replace all those calorie dense, nutritionally > impoverished starches with something besides olive oil. :-) But you just said you have no need to eat carbohydrates. drfrank21@gmail.com wrote in part: >I'm kind of lucky that my current trig is 25 and total chol is >120 so I'm taking the salmon oil for the other benefits.I guess >I do low carb as well (not Atkins or anything like that) >in that I don't eat any sweets, bread, pasta etc. but >mainly eat salads, fish and poultry. The only thing >I'd like to do would be to increase my HDL levels. Do you eat enough fat? I know that increasing the monosaturated fat can boost HDL. I've kept records for a while. My HDL was very low on a high carb low fat diet. Reducing the carbs (or maybe the high-glycemic carbs) helped me, but shifting fats to be heavy on monosaturates helped even more. I'm talking about olive oil, avocados, almonds, etc. Off-topic, I guess... SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > drfrank21@gmail.com wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Off-topic, I guess... > -- I'll have a snack of peanuts/cashews (very easy to overeat these) and peanut butter at times. I'm not sure how much is in a hard-boiled egg but I try to stay away from bacon/sausage because of the high nitrates. So I'm not sure just how much I get in my diet. frank > I'll have a snack of peanuts/cashews (very easy to overeat these) > and peanut butter at times. I count ten almonds or pistachios out, close the container and that's IT. It is too easy to overdo those. I'll have one TBS of PB or Almond butter on occasion for a between meal snack. I'm not sure how much is in > a hard-boiled egg but I try to stay away from bacon/sausage > because of the high nitrates. So I'm not sure just how much > I get in my diet. I buy only grass fed meat products, no nitrates, healthy fat profiles. The pork bacon I eat is naturally lean, dry rubbed and not cured. I never buy cured meats. Susan >> drfrank21@gmail.com wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > frank Walnuts and almonds are actually better choices for nuts. :) Eva > Walnuts and almonds are actually better choices for nuts. :) > > Eva they are, but if one is eating low carb, the distinction becomes less critical. personal taste matters, too. I limit PB due to aflatoxins and lectins, plus they're not really nuts. But walnuts are no better, really, than almonds, hazelnuts, brazil nuts or macadamias. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > they are, but if one is eating low carb, the distinction becomes less > critical. personal taste matters, too. That's interesting. I don't know a whole lot about it. But it's just what I've heard that almonds and walnuts are the best. > I limit PB due to aflatoxins and lectins, plus they're not really nuts. > But walnuts are no better, really, than almonds, hazelnuts, brazil nuts or > macadamias. > > Susan Of course, my problem would be eating way too many of them. Eva > Of course, my problem would be eating way too many of them. The key is to count them out, close the bag and put it away. :-) Susan > x-no-archive: yes > > > Of course, my problem would be eating way too many of them. > > The key is to count them out, close the bag and put it away. :-) Or do more exercise. > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Susan But that would involve willpower. :-0 Eva > But that would involve willpower. :-0 > > Eva Not if you eat low carb. Diminishes hunger and cravings. I'm type 2 DM, so it's not wise to use food for recreation. :-) Susan >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > frank I have been taking 1000mg fish oil and my HDL went up 25%. I first started taking GNC fish oil and had a fish taste from it. Switched to Nordic Naturals Omega-3 fish oils and haveno fish oil after taste. Dave C. > I have been taking 1000mg fish oil and my HDL went up 25%. I first started > taking GNC fish oil and had a fish taste from it. Switched to Nordic > Naturals Omega-3 fish oils and haveno fish oil after taste. Is that the only change you've made? I ask because that's a very low dose and because that's not a typical effect. But if it works for you, who cares what's typical! Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Susan Hi, more specifically, I take 1000mg fish oil twice a day and this was over a six month period. As far as any other change, none that I am aware of, but I reduced my simple sugars very drastically also. As my doctor suggested, I lost 15 lbs (from 195 to 180 lbs) in order to get my blood pressure under better control and I did that......probably was a factor too. Dave C. "Dave C." <myaddress.net> wrote in part: >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >a six month period. As far as any other change, none that I am aware of, >but I reduced my simple sugars very drastically also. Reducing high-glycemic carbs (not restricted to simple sugars) will reduce triglycerides a lot and in some people it boosts HDL. >As my doctor suggested, I lost 15 lbs (from 195 to 180 lbs) in order to get >my blood pressure under better control and I did that......probably was a >factor too. Probably the main factor! (Congrats!) SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG On 8/23/06 10:10 AM, in article 1156353059.817505.271140@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com, "drfrank21@gmail.com" >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > frank The bleeding from Gingko is rarely from the Gingko itself, it is the combination with other products that is the usual cause. If we could guarantee that persons on Gingko would never mix with salicylates, etc that would be fine. But with persons taking pills by the handful, often not knowing what the heck is in it - "Its Safe, its a Chinese Herb", I don't know what's in it but its safe, its natural - then you can have a lethal combination. >> I've never seen a retinal hemorrhage due to vit c/asa/fish oil > but I have with gingko. The bleeds weren't pleasant. > I've also have talked with physicians who have had patients > with cerebral hemorrhages due to ginkgo. I think most > experts would rank gingko over the above (ie vit c,asa) > with the greater side effect of hemorrhage I shall always be grateful to Murray Grossan, in this ng, for warning me off ginkgo when I reported nose bleeds - before it was too late. Thanks Murray! ;) Anybody using Ginkgo should be very careful IMO. Steve > I shall always be grateful to Murray Grossan, in this ng, for warning me > off ginkgo when I reported nose bleeds - before it was too late. Thanks > Murray! ;) > > Anybody using Ginkgo should be very careful IMO. Anybody using *anything* should be very careful. As Murray posted the other day, he's never seen a case where it was just the ginkgo, it was the combination of ginkgo with other anti thrombotics. Susan -- > x-no-archive: yes > > As Murray posted the other day, he's never seen a case where it was just > the ginkgo, it was the combination of ginkgo with other anti thrombotics. > > Susan You make a fair point Susan. Though personally I wouldn't want to take the risk now since my ¼ aspirin-a-day regime is more effective on the T than the Ginkgo and much cheaper too. And I no longer get the nosebleeds... Steve Just go for a simple ginkgo pill and save the rest of the trouble. It does not hurt to have your head blood circulation improved even if it does not help your tinnitus but if you are lucky you may experience some softening sound of tinnitus. I am taking the ones made by Century 21 of Arizona. Talk to a pharmacist who has more experience with ginkgo than the alarmist amateurs or the Nazi monopolist doctors in this ng... FP \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > I came across an ad for Equitab, a blend of "ginkgo extracts, dried rhizome > of ginger, kelp, and cayenne." Reportly, good for tinnitus and vertigo. > > I'm not rushing out to buy some, but any comments on this product? Might be > just another herbal blend. > pharmacist who has more experience with ginkgo than the alarmist > amateurs or the Nazi monopolist doctors in this ng... You sure like that term "Nazi doctors"- is very offensive and is a sure sign of an idiot who has no clue in life. And who the hell are you referring to anyway????? frank > > pharmacist who has more experience with ginkgo than the alarmist > > amateurs or the Nazi monopolist doctors in this ng... > > You sure like that term "Nazi doctors"- is very offensive It is offensive to someone who is a Nazi doctor but not to someone who is not. By claiming my statement is offensive, are you admitting you are a Nazi doc? You should have asked your interlocutor to define what it means by a Nazi doc before running away with your blind anger. Now listen to this: a Nazi doc, by my definition, is a doc produced by an establishment or an association which intentionally retricts the supply of doc into the market place in order to jack up the prices of the services. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ and is a > sure sign of an idiot who has no clue in life. And who the hell > are you referring to anyway????? > > frank > > > pharmacist who has more experience with ginkgo than the alarmist > > > amateurs or the Nazi monopolist doctors in this ng... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It is offensive to someone who is a Nazi doctor but not to someone who > is not. It is offensive to me, and I'm not a doctor at all. > By claiming my statement is offensive, are you admitting you > are a Nazi doc? You should have asked your interlocutor to define what [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > supply of doc into the market place in order to jack up the prices of > the services. That means there are no "Nazi docs" then. > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > frank > > > > pharmacist who has more experience with ginkgo than the alarmist > > > > amateurs or the Nazi monopolist doctors in this ng... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It is offensive to me, and I'm not a doctor at all. Many things are offensive to you, and this should not have come as a surprise. You have been going after every post and saying something for the sake of doing so. > > By claiming my statement is offensive, are you admitting you > > are a Nazi doc? You should have asked your interlocutor to define what [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That means there are no "Nazi docs" then. There are in *my* definition.............. > > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > > > frank > > > > > pharmacist who has more experience with ginkgo than the alarmist > > > > > amateurs or the Nazi monopolist doctors in this ng... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > surprise. You have been going after every post and saying something > for the sake of doing so. I disagree with your view of doctors as nazis, and I have refuted it. I also disagree with your implied view that doctors are supposed to have the authority you attribute to them, and I have refuted that. > > > By claiming my statement is offensive, are you admitting you > > > are a Nazi doc? You should have asked your interlocutor to define what [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > There are in *my* definition.............. ...which has been refuted. > > > > > > pharmacist who has more experience with ginkgo than the alarmist > > > > > > amateurs or the Nazi monopolist doctors in this ng... [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > ...which has been refuted. In order to refute my definition, you have to first of all dispute the claim that the medical authority in a certain country is a monopoly, and secondly, even if it were, it should by your standards not be named Nazi. You have done none of both. > > > > > > > pharmacist who has more experience with ginkgo than the alarmist > > > > > > > amateurs or the Nazi monopolist doctors in this ng... [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > In order to refute my definition, you have to first of all dispute the > claim that the medical authority in a certain country is a monopoly, No, there is no necessary connection between monopoly and restriction of numbers. > and secondly, even if it were, it should by your standards not be named > Nazi. A Nazi is a member of the National Socialist Party, a fascist political organization. I know of no medical authorities that come close to fitting that description. > You have done none of both. Your definition only suits your argument and is not correct by the common definition. Chocolate was a specific candy originally and now has many meanings. Time takes it's toll. Let's all settle on "Nazi like" >> > In article >> > <1156402469.574133.279220@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > >> You have done none of both. > Your definition only suits your argument and is not correct by the > common definition. The common definition still includes fascism. I don't know of any medical authorities that are fascist. > Chocolate was a specific candy originally and now has many meanings. > Time takes it's toll. > > Let's all settle on "Nazi like" The AMA, and medical schools in the US, Canada, and Europe are not Nazi-like, so, no, let's don't settle on that. > >> > In article > >> > <1156402469.574133.279220@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > > >> You have done none of both. This is only your opinion. Others have that opinions that many of medical communities are "Nazi like". I know of medical practicioners that have lost their right to practice for practicing "unorthodox methods". The MDs involved lost due to being bankrupt from legal fees and conceded. They practice professionally no more. Now, you tell me that isn't "Nazi like" and I will tell you, you are a liar with a hidden agenda. >> Your definition only suits your argument and is not correct by the >> common definition. [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] >> > >> >> You have done none of both. > This is only your opinion. Others have that opinions that many of > medical communities are "Nazi like". I suppose so, but I have an argument, and they don't. > I know of medical practicioners that have lost their right to practice > for practicing "unorthodox methods". The MDs involved lost due to > being bankrupt from legal fees and conceded. They practice > professionally no more. Now, you tell me that isn't "Nazi like" and I > will tell you, you are a liar with a hidden agenda. That isn't Nazi-like. > >> Your definition only suits your argument and is not correct by the > >> common definition. [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > >> > > >> >> You have done none of both. You show great denial in order to save face. Please show consideration and trim your posting. >> This is only your opinion. Others have that opinions that many of >> medical communities are "Nazi like". [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > That isn't Nazi-like. > You show great denial in order to save face. Plagiarizing fortune cookies is just as bad as top posting. Practicing unorthodox methods, as a member of a professional organization with a code of conduct that requires certain testable standards of treatment, is grounds for dismissal from that professional organization. Just as designing bridges using unorthodox methods is disallowed for certified engineers by their professional guilds, so too is practicing unorthodox medical methods disallowed by certifying medical guilds. And for the same reasons - they require scientific validation, or specific permission based on accepted explanation. This is not Nazi-like. It is standard procedure. It may mean professional guilds are slow to embrace new knowledge, but that has nothing at all to do with nazism. > Please show consideration and trim your posting. Please stop top posting. > >> This is only your opinion. Others have that opinions that many of > >> medical communities are "Nazi like". [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > That isn't Nazi-like. Many think it is just like you deny it is. Your whining about posting style demonstrates your commitment to real discussion. > Practicing unorthodox methods, as a member of a professional > organization with a code of conduct that requires certain testable [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > all to > do with nazism. > Many think it is just like you deny it is. No, they don't. > Your whining about posting style demonstrates your commitment to real > discussion. This isn't a real discussion. > > Practicing unorthodox methods, as a member of a professional > > organization with a code of conduct that requires certain testable [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > all to > > do with nazism. > This is only your opinion. Others have that opinions that many of > medical communities are "Nazi like". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > professionally no more. Now, you tell me that isn't "Nazi like" and I > will tell you, you are a liar with a hidden agenda. By the way, top posting is rude and selfish. > >> Your definition only suits your argument and is not correct by the > >> common definition. [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > >> > > >> >> You have done none of both. Picking at the correct way of posting is just cry-baby like. >> This is only your opinion. Others have that opinions that many of >> medical communities are "Nazi like". [quoted text clipped - 128 lines] >> >> > >> >> >> You have done none of both. > Picking at the correct way of posting is just cry-baby like. So is picking at posting length. > >> This is only your opinion. Others have that opinions that many of > >> medical communities are "Nazi like". [quoted text clipped - 128 lines] > >> >> > > >> >> >> You have done none of both. >> It is offensive to someone who is a Nazi doctor but not to someone who > is not. By claiming my statement is offensive, are you admitting you > are a Nazi doc? You should have asked your interlocutor to define what > it means by a Nazi doc before running away with your blind anger. Tell me that you're repulsed by a pedophile?? If you said yes, by your logic, you would be one. Foot in mouth disease. > Now listen to this: a Nazi doc, by my definition, is a doc produced by > an establishment or an association which intentionally retricts the > supply of doc into the market place in order to jack up the prices of > the services. You really are a grade-A moron. Don't you realize whenever you post something you make an a.s out of yourself?? Your definition of a nazi doc is just whacked and you didn't answer who on the ng (you made it plural) are the "nazi docs". You are clueless about nazi germany and what the nazi docs actually did. frank > You really are a grade-A moron. Don't you realize whenever > you post something you make an a.s out of yourself?? > Your definition of a nazi doc is just whacked and you didn't > answer who on the ng (you made it plural) are the "nazi > docs". You are clueless about nazi germany and what > the nazi docs actually did. Frank, not for nuthin but he's smart enough to keep you engaged, even after years. Most of us only see his posts when you respond to him. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Susan I've seen gerbils with more intelligence than what Francis displays so don't give him too much credit. I do read his posts just to see how much more over the top he can get. I guess it's like slowing down to see a car wreck (I have though, more than once, stopped to give aid to the accident victims) . But there are just times where he should not get free rein and should be called out; I do try to keep it to a minimum. I'm going to trust people like yourself and other sane people here to keep me in check from engaging in any brain numbing conversations with this genius. Thanks. frank frank drfrank21@gmail.com wrote in part: > I'm going to trust people like >yourself and other sane people here to keep me >in check from engaging in any brain numbing >conversations with this genius. FWIW, I agree with Susan. The best response is none at all. Ideally, you don't read the posts of such people. After all, they post because of their audience. Deprive them of it. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > I've seen gerbils with more intelligence than what Francis > displays so don't give him too much credit. I do read his > posts just to see how much more over the top he can > get. I guess it's like slowing down to see a car > wreck (I have though, more than once, stopped to give > aid to the accident victims) . Do you stop to view the scene of a wreck and stay there, without leaving? > But there are just times where he should not get > free rein and should be called out; I do try to keep > it to a minimum. I'm going to trust people like > yourself and other sane people here to keep me > in check from engaging in any brain numbing > conversations with this genius. Count on it. ;-) Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Do you stop to view the scene of a wreck and stay there, without leaving? Like I stated, I've helped out more tha |
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