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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / August 2006

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Tinnitus Seminar Audio Download for Tinnitus Sufferers

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NJH - 17 Aug 2006 21:06 GMT
Our story was featured in June's issue of Tinnitus Today published by
the American Tinnitus Association.  We recieved a slew of letters and
emails from Tinnitus sufferers and their spouses who related to that
story.  I've posted it on our tinnitus blog at
http://www.paultobey.com/blog/?cat=3

Nancy Houle
jga.socal - 18 Aug 2006 17:17 GMT
> Our story was featured in June's issue of Tinnitus Today published by
> the American Tinnitus Association.  We recieved a slew of letters and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Nancy Houle

While $4.97 is not a lot of money, I also find zero scientific
information in the piano players blog/pitch. His pitch claims his
treatment is 'proven' but nowhere else on the page does he explain the
proof.  How many people have tried his 'treatment'?  What are the
results?  If he is a scammer he definitely he has found fertile
pastures but he will not make a killing at $4.97 a shot, especially
since the audio tape can easily find it's way to Kazaa as a free
download.  My suspicion is that Paul has fallen into the 'Tommy, the
Who' trap.  Remember Tommy, the rock opera from The Who?  Tommy was a
blind, deaf, & dumb boy who found meaning in life by playing pinball
machines.  He was so good, people said he must play by 'sense of
smell'.  Pinball worked for Tommy so well that he decided to start a
religion claiming that pinball was the way to salvation.  Of course,
pinball turned out to be only Tommy's salvation.  As anyone has
discovered by studying the T liturature as well as this, and other
Tinnitus community discussions, Tinnitus has many causes and even more
treatments.  What reduces Tinnitus for one person generally has little
chance of working for others. Pauls blog recognizes the myriad of
causes but fails to even hint at why his 'treatment' will work for all
of them. The total lack of detail in his pitch is straight out of
chapter 3 of "The Complete Idiots Guide to Scamming".  Well, ok, there
is no such book.  Well, anyway, I agree with Paul when he says "Don't
get fooled by the bogus claims".  Consumer beware.  Show us the proof
and we'll show you the money!
Now, I am going to post this at the end of Pauls "blog".  I'll bet good
money my comment 'disappears'!
jga.socal - 20 Aug 2006 17:43 GMT
I posted the above comment on Pauls blog site. He emailed me the
following. Judge for yourself. HIs technique has only worked on himself
and he's hoping others will give it a shot to see if it works for them.
From a scientific point of view the expiriment/technique now has an
emperical sample of one.  Volunteers wanted with a sense of adventure
and $4.97.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...and thank you for your very well formulated post. Let me be as
honest as I can. Obviously this is a blog and as such is not really
intended as a "pitch" for anything. I'm simply responding to the
numerous emails and letters I received in response to my article which
appeared in "Tinnitus Today" the ATA's journal.

People have been requesting help. So, the only thing that I could do as
a good citizen of the universe is to provide help the only way I know
how; "information."

The information on this audio recording reflects a process that I went
through to learn how to live a tinnitus-free life. Will it work for you
or anyone else? I cannot say. What I can say is that it worked for me.
Until somebody gives me a testimonial to say it worked for them I'm
the only proof there is. By the way, I only posted this audio recording
like 2 days ago. It will take some significant time to receive
testimonials from those who download it so you'll just have to wait.

However, here's the thing...

$4.97 is really not a lot of money and barely covers the cost of making
this audio recording and distributing it. Plus I give 25% of the money
to the American Tinnitus Association. You're right, my aim is not to
make a killing but to empower tinnitus sufferers to help themselves
with the information I provide. And, if you or anyone else wants a 100%
refund that's not a problem. I totally expect that, because I know
there are those who will not believe in what I teach.

I can't prove this information cured me because I can't prove
tinnitus exists. Only those who suffer know it actually exists.
Therefore, if I'm healed who would know exactly?

It's all a trust issue. If you trust the process and are willing to
take a chance when nothing else has worked. Go for it! So, why should
you trust me? This is me... http://www.paultobey.com. Take the time,
read all about me. Download some music, read about my accomplishments.
Then if you still do not trust, that's not my issue.

What do I stand to gain from all of this? To know that I might have
helped someone. Is this a get rich quick scheme? Come on, get serious.
How far do you think $4.97 Canadian dollars will take me exactly?

This is my gift. Those who cannot receive will never receive. It's a
simple law. For every giver there must be a receiver."
Susan - 20 Aug 2006 18:06 GMT
> I posted the above comment on Pauls blog site. He emailed me the
> following. Judge for yourself. HIs technique has only worked on himself
> and he's hoping others will give it a shot to see if it works for them.
>  From a scientific point of view the expiriment/technique now has an
> emperical sample of one.  Volunteers wanted with a sense of adventure
> and $4.97.

Yeah, that's why it's a SCAM.

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "...and thank you for your very well formulated post. Let me be as
> honest as I can. Obviously this is a blog and as such is not really
> intended as a "pitch" for anything.

BULLSHIT

 I'm simply responding to the
> numerous emails and letters I received in response to my article which
> appeared in "Tinnitus Today" the ATA's journal.
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> This is my gift. Those who cannot receive will never receive. It's a
> simple law. For every giver there must be a receiver."
Susan - 20 Aug 2006 18:09 GMT
Jim Chinnis, I wonder if you can let the appropriate legal counsel
and/or executive folks at the ATA know that this scam artist sent them
an article to be used as a come on for a commercial spamscamscheme?

If you don't alert them, I will.  It's very clear what these folks are
up to.

Susan

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>> This is my gift. Those who cannot receive will never receive. It's a
>> simple law. For every giver there must be a receiver."
Jim Chinnis - 20 Aug 2006 19:58 GMT
Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part:

>Jim Chinnis, I wonder if you can let the appropriate legal counsel
>and/or executive folks at the ATA know that this scam artist sent them
>an article to be used as a come on for a commercial spamscamscheme?
>
>If you don't alert them, I will.  It's very clear what these folks are
>up to.

I suggest people contact the CEO, David Fagerlie at david at ata dot org. He
is a busy man doing a critical job, so anyone who writes should take an
effort to be clear in their complaint (or praise).
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Elly Byrne - 20 Aug 2006 21:20 GMT
Go for it Susan. I can't believe youare actually saying this.

Tell me this. If a doctor prescribes a medicine for Tinnitus and it
doesn't work - does that make him a scam artist?

If the people recommending Tinnitus Retraining Therapy charge someone
thousands of dollars and it doesn't work - and there is no refund -
does that make them a scam artist?

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/

>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>>> This is my gift. Those who cannot receive will never receive. It's a
>>> simple law. For every giver there must be a receiver."

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Martin Smith - 20 Aug 2006 21:25 GMT
It isn't spam either, unless he sends it to lots of newsgroups or lots
of addresses. I only saw it in this newsgroup.

> Go for it Susan. I can't believe youare actually saying this.
>
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
> >>> This is my gift. Those who cannot receive will never receive. It's a
> >>> simple law. For every giver there must be a receiver."
Susan - 20 Aug 2006 22:14 GMT
> It isn't spam either, unless he sends it to lots of newsgroups or lots
> of addresses. I only saw it in this newsgroup.

You're right.  It's simply a scam, then.

Susan
Martin Smith - 20 Aug 2006 22:22 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan

I don't know. How do you know it's a scam?
Susan - 20 Aug 2006 22:28 GMT
> I don't know. How do you know it's a scam?

Martin, I'm not into playing circumlocution games with you ever again.

If you want to know my reasoning, read my earlier posts.

Susan
Martin Smith - 20 Aug 2006 22:33 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Susan

I read your posts You didn't have any reasoning.
Eva Quesnell - 21 Aug 2006 16:05 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Susan

Agreed, Susan.  It seems Martin just likes to get into arguments with
people.  Another person to ignore.

Eva
NJH - 21 Aug 2006 19:28 GMT
I had a few people write expressing their concern over this thread.
I had no idea that when I'd post here that I would get so much
negativity.
It's really kind of sad.  I wasn't going to give it any energy, but at
the bequest of others, I will respond.

Tinnitus Today CHOSE to publish our article in June 06.  We didn't pay
them, con them, coherse them, or scam them.  Let's take this back to
basic facts please.

The first request for us to provide a seminar/tinnitus workshop came in
July.  Then came the requests for an audio recording in Early august.
We went into studio on August 12th to record the audio after recieving
another yet very desperate email by a flutist suffering from Tinnitus
who emailed  "I soo want to get my life and music back".  The plea was
enough to send us into ACTION!  We edited the audio on the 13th.  So
the suggestion on this thread that we scammed the ATA is not only
harmful to our reputation, its simply propostrous and based in
malicious intent.

One thing about human nature is that it's much easier to criticize,
judge, blame and justify ...than it is for one to go out there and take
positive action!

We too used to judge, criticize, blame and be intolerant of people
failing to help us.  But at one point, we just grew out of that
negative space and learned to be grateful for people's efforts.  We
stayed in a state of gratitude vs. being so angry and judgemental.
Gratitude attracted more of what we wanted which was healing, vs. what
we didn't want (negative stuff).

Paul Tobey's case with Tinnitus has been well documented over these
past 7 years with audiologists, doctors, healers, TRT specialists,
music therapists, The Musicians Clinics of Canada, the Canadian Hearing
Centre and many more.  We desperately looked for help in all places. We
travelled all the way to Utah and Japan (from Toronto).  We spent
thousands and thousands looking for the miracle.  Thousands more on
healers, hundreds on herbal meds, thousands on TRT, etc.  You get the
idea.

Paul has walked the razor's edge of suicide because of the Tinnitus. It
was intolerable.  I don't have to elaborate.  Many of you here know
what kind of physical suffering and emotional pain I'm talking about. I
lived with that.  I had to be the partner through that.  I had to be
the strength and be 100% grounded through that.  And as the spouse of a
chronic Tinnitus sufferer, I could say the early years with Tinnitus
were the worst years of my life!

It's not something we wanted to go public with because of our 9 year
old son.  We didn't want to burden him with this truth.  What would the
school kids say?  What would the music media say?  What would our
audiences say?  If people found out our dark truth, how would our
concert ticket sales be affected?

However, we raised our son Adrian with lots of love and trust therefore
we took the leap of faith that this knowledge would strengthen him.
Why take the risk of putting extra emotional burden on Adrian?  Our
journey has been a painful one, but now Paul lives effortlessly with
the Tinnitus.  How could anyone make this up?  We have a healthy music
and film career!  Why would we invest our time and money if we were not
truly touched by other's peoples cry for help?   What does God want us
to do?  Turn away?

It's funny how this listserve comes full-circle for me.  In the early
years, this is where Paul came for help.  In fact, there are a couple
of names I recognize from people offering support in those days.  Part
of our healing process was to stay away from Tinnitus listserves - for
this very reason.  There are just a few people who make the experience
really awkward for the others.

I really am okay with you thinking it's a scam. Or that I spammed. Or
that our intent was not authentic.  I know the truth.  Paul knows the
truth. And Adrian knows the truth.  People we help know the truth.  We
do the hard work.  And in our reality ...that's the only truth that
matters.

Wishing you healing,

Nancy Houle,
Wife, muse, and spiritual partner of Paul Tobey

> > x-no-archive: yes
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Eva
Jim Chinnis - 21 Aug 2006 19:36 GMT
"NJH" <nancy@jazzsolution.com> wrote in part:

>I had a few people write expressing their concern over this thread.
>I had no idea that when I'd post here that I would get so much
>negativity.
>It's really kind of sad.  I wasn't going to give it any energy, but at
>the bequest of others, I will respond.

<snip>

I'm glad you took the time to respond. I believe you.

I'm just sorry that your husband made such a good imitation of a tinnitus
scammer. There are so many out there that it is wise to be skeptical.

To a point.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Susan - 21 Aug 2006 19:45 GMT
> The first request for us to provide a seminar/tinnitus workshop came in
> July.  Then came the requests for an audio recording in Early august.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> harmful to our reputation, its simply propostrous and based in
> malicious intent.

I still assert that by using the public venue of a non-profit to advance
a profit making enterprise using a usenet support group is scamming,
whether or not you've truly suffered from tinnitus.

Further, you now assert your clairvoyance by stating only malice on my
part could possibly explain my objection to the blatantly commercial
post made here.  You're incorrect, but I doubt that concerns you.

Perhaps if you'd paid for an advertisement of your hoped for
profitmaking enterprise somewhere commercial, instead of making blatant
commercial posts to a usenet support group in the guise of altruistic do
goodism, you'd meet with less resistance.

Susan
Martin Smith - 21 Aug 2006 20:06 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> a profit making enterprise using a usenet support group is scamming,
> whether or not you've truly suffered from tinnitus.

A scam is fraud. Advertising for free in a support group isn't fraud. It
might be cheap, but it isn't fraud.

> Further, you now assert your clairvoyance by stating only malice on my
> part could possibly explain my objection to the blatantly commercial
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Susan
Elly Byrne - 21 Aug 2006 21:44 GMT
>A scam is fraud. Advertising for free in a support group isn't fraud. It
>might be cheap, but it isn't fraud.

Good post Martin.

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Susan - 21 Aug 2006 19:47 GMT
> Tinnitus Today CHOSE to publish our article in June 06.  We didn't pay
> them, con them, coherse them, or scam them.  Let's take this back to
> basic facts please.

I wonder how the ATA and the editors of Tinnitus Today would feel about
the use of the article for advertising?

I sure hope you're planning to take out full page ads in every future
issue they publish, for $$.

Susan
Janice - 22 Aug 2006 03:36 GMT
<plonk>

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 20 Aug 2006 22:13 GMT
> Go for it Susan. I can't believe youare actually saying this.
>
> Tell me this. If a doctor prescribes a medicine for Tinnitus and it
> doesn't work - does that make him a scam artist?

Elly, this is a total non sequitir.  Not analogous.

Susan
Susan - 18 Aug 2006 17:42 GMT
> Our story was featured in June's issue of Tinnitus Today published by
> the American Tinnitus Association.  We recieved a slew of letters and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Nancy Houle
Elly Byrne - 18 Aug 2006 21:36 GMT
You are of course entitled to your opinion.

But this would NOT be a scam. !!!

Has anyone said that the article was not published in Tinnitus Today?
They would not publish a scam.

Paul Tobey is a famous pianist in Canada. PC savvy people could have
found his website without too much trouble.

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/

>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> Nancy Houle

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Susan - 18 Aug 2006 22:35 GMT
> You are of course entitled to your opinion.
>
>  But this would NOT be a scam. !!!

The post was for commercial purposes, Elly, did you read the site?

Susan
Elly Byrne - 19 Aug 2006 21:06 GMT
What is your definition of a scam?

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/

>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Susan

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Susan - 19 Aug 2006 23:02 GMT
> What is your definition of a scam?

A commercial, money making endeavor that cloaks itself in association
with a non-profit by pretending to be a support post.

When has the OP ever posted anything here of a supportive, not a
commmercial come-on nature?

Susan
drfrank21@gmail.com - 20 Aug 2006 01:57 GMT
> What is your definition of a scam?

spam= unwanted/unsolicited  advertising
scam= peddling (knowingly) a fraudulent
         treatment/product especially to
         unsuspecting persons

frank
Jim Chinnis - 20 Aug 2006 02:08 GMT
Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part:

>What is your definition of a scam?

Even though Paul Tobey wrote an excellent article for Tinnitus Today and I
am a huge supporter of the American Tinnitus Association, I have to agree
with Susan. The post here re a "proven" treatment for about $4 is spam (no
previous participation) and a scam (it isn't proven and the claims can't be
substantiated).
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

jga.socal - 21 Aug 2006 22:38 GMT
Funny. I thought I was the spam nazi. Then susan steps up.
However, AST ng regulars should really concentrate on their own
home-grown spammers before thrashing new ones.  Lets review two of
them.
Grossman leaves his commercial website link in his posts only once in a
while.  But Elly posts her website link every single...freaking post.
Often her posts *only* contain her website link.  In any case, posting
links in a ng to a website where you have a personal financial stake
*IS* spamming.  Grossman I can tolerate cuz A) he has excellent
credentials and 2) he posts his website link sparingly.  Elly really
bugs me cuz she has abolutely no credibility in the field, insisting
that all T is caused by sore neck muscles.  If you look at a study of
1600 people supported by the ATA at
http://www.tinnitusarchive.org/dataSets/set-1 (currently not loading)
you will see that less than 5% of Tinnitus is caused by musculature
problems.  I would pity the po fool that clicks off to her website
except for the fact that she is recommending massage therapy. A massage
is prolly not gonna hurt anyone. What really peeves me is her unabashed
linkage to known Tinnitus scam products. Her site is chock full of not
only commercial links, but her own endorsements to them, as well as her
own, probably self-published, book.  Here's a sample of links endorsed
at eebee.net:

Quiescence, stopthering . com, and svdinc . com
Neuromonics, neuromonics . com
Alexander Technique, under 'Tinnitues is a pain in the neck' link,
alexandertechnique . com  (Sells books)
Kevin Hogan, under 'children links', kevinhogan . com (sells the
Tinnitus Reduction Program)
Under 'Interesting Tinnitus links':
tinnitusrelief . net  Grossmans site (paid products)
ent-consult . com  Grossmans site (paid products)
tinnitushelp . com  (A pay-per-click website who's ownership is hidden
in the whois database...)
tinnitusformula . com  Arches Formula

I'd rather read a dozen buffoonish posts from a certain chinaman (which
I don't) than see one worthless spam link posted by Elly. Unfortunately
all you can do is shake your head and watch. And you try to ignore. But
sometimes the T flares up and forces your fingers to punch out some
keys...
So, hey, Susan, how about thrashing Elly a bit now? It's can be fun!
Susan - 21 Aug 2006 22:54 GMT
> Funny. I thought I was the spam nazi. Then susan steps up.
> However, AST ng regulars should really concentrate on their own
> home-grown spammers before thrashing new ones.  Lets review two of
> them.
> Grossman leaves his commercial website link in his posts only once in a
> while.

Do you mean Dr. Grossan?  It's important for someone to let us know when
he posts, if he has a commercial interest so we can decide how to
evaluate his information in that light.  Sig lines are perfectly
acceptable usenet protocol, if they're brief.  They identify the poster.

 > But Elly posts her website link every single...freaking post.
> Often her posts *only* contain her website link.

Unlike you, Elly has posted here for many years in support of her theory
that tinnitus is due to neck tension.  Without ever selling anything.
Signatures are perfectly acceptable usenet protocol.  Entering a support
group to advertise a moneymaking scheme never has been, in
non-commercial support forums.

  In any case, posting
> links in a ng to a website where you have a personal financial stake
> *IS* spamming.

Not really, as someone pointed out, spamming means releasing a large
volume of posts to a variety of places all at once.  It is, however,
unwelcome in a support forum for mutual self help.

  Grossman I can tolerate cuz A) he has excellent
> credentials and 2) he posts his website link sparingly.

You probably mean Grossan, right?

 Elly really
> bugs me cuz she has abolutely no credibility in the field, insisting
> that all T is caused by sore neck muscles.  If you look at a study of
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> in the whois database...)
> tinnitusformula . com  Arches Formula

Elly has always posted a LOT of references and resources that she thinks
might benefit tinnitus sufferers.

> I'd rather read a dozen buffoonish posts from a certain chinaman (which
> I don't) than see one worthless spam link posted by Elly. Unfortunately
> all you can do is shake your head and watch. And you try to ignore. But
> sometimes the T flares up and forces your fingers to punch out some
> keys...
> So, hey, Susan, how about thrashing Elly a bit now? It's can be fun!

I don't believe in trashing folks on usenet, not even jerks like you.  I
just call a spade a spade, and the  OP didn't pass the smell test.

Susan
jga.socal - 22 Aug 2006 02:03 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> Susan

Hypocracy is only the failure to recognize the similarities between 2
comparitive concepts.  But to repeat the same failure over and over is
the definition of mental illness. Hang in there girl.  You are
providing good comedic relief to lots of readers here.
Thanx for the chuckles.
Murray Grossan - 22 Aug 2006 02:29 GMT
35 + Emails on the same subject that no one else gives a hoot about! You
have made your point over and over and over. Get a life. Get a new subject.
Let's talk about Tinnitus, shall we?

Murray Grossan, M.D.
Wee.ent-consult.com
Susan - 22 Aug 2006 02:53 GMT
> 35 + Emails on the same subject that no one else gives a hoot about! You
> have made your point over and over and over. Get a life. Get a new subject.
> Let's talk about Tinnitus, shall we?

Get a kill file!!  :-)

Susan <has one, it's full>
jga.socal - 22 Aug 2006 17:47 GMT
> Get a kill file!!  :-)
> Susan <has one, it's full>

Look how proud you are of your kill file... It's full, you boast.

This environment is meant to promote the exchange of ideas and opinions
...even ones you find disagreable. It's not meant to be be an outlet
for personality issues. The fact that you have filled up your killfile
is not something to boast about. Quite the opposite. They say if you
cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. To stay in the kitchen
only to whine, complain, and attack others only degrades yourself and
the experience of others who function well in the heat. When you see a
cuss word appearing on your screen as you type... you need to stop.
When you see a personal attack taking form, likewise, just stop typing.
Take a deep breath and turn it around.  If you cant frame your
disagreement in polite discourse, then just move on. But you really
need to start trying to be respectful and polite. Loading up your
killfile with names of people with whom you have disagreements is
really not the way to improve your communication skills. It's just an
avoidance mechanism.

Again, I think your opinion that it's NOT ok for Nancy to post 1 link
to a commercial website but it's OK for your buddy Elly to post daily
links to her commercial website; is not well thought out.  If your
response remains as personal attacks and cursing, then so be it.
Janice - 22 Aug 2006 22:08 GMT
It is not the killfile that makes her a troll, it is the pride
associated with anouncing it.

>> Get a kill file!!  :-)
>> Susan <has one, it's full>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> links to her commercial website; is not well thought out.  If your
> response remains as personal attacks and cursing, then so be it.
Susan - 22 Aug 2006 02:56 GMT
> Hypocracy is only the failure to recognize the similarities between 2
> comparitive concepts.  But to repeat the same failure over and over is
> the definition of mental illness. Hang in there girl.  You are
> providing good comedic relief to lots of readers here.

You just got your nose out of joint because I recognized you as a
worthless bullshitter on day one.

> Thanx for the chuckles.

We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you.

Susan
Janice - 22 Aug 2006 03:42 GMT
">I don't believe in trashing folks on usenet, not even jerks like
you.

> Susan"

> You just got your nose out of joint because I recognized you as a
> worthless bullshitter on day one.
>
> We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you.
>
> Susan

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