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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / September 2006LLLT treatment for tinnitus
Hi -- I'm a newbie that's been lurking for a few months. I'm wondering if anyone in this group has knowledge or experience with LLLT (Low Level Laser Therapy) for tinnitus. Apparently this has been a well developed method in Eastern Europe for a couple of decades, however I wasn't able to find any mainstream (Lancet, etc.,) reviews of the research. Any help with this?? Carl > Hi -- I'm a newbie that's been lurking for a few months. I'm wondering if > anyone in this group has knowledge or experience with LLLT (Low Level Laser [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Carl You might try googling up posts from past years when it was discussed. I can't recall anyone reporting a benefit, but that doesn't mean it never happened. Susan Thanks, Susan ... I did some googling as suggested. This link is the best info I could find http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:2k_3Ut7AMYIJ:p080.ezboard.com/ftinnitussupp ort92262frm39.showMessage%3FtopicID%3D717.topic+alt.support.tinnitus+LLLT&hl=en& gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=5. Seems that results were negative to middling, depending on who is reporting. Carl > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Susan > Hi -- I'm a newbie that's been lurking for a few months. I'm wondering if > anyone in this group has knowledge or experience with LLLT (Low Level Laser [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Carl What do they do, point the laser into your ear? Yes ... more or less. They irradiate the mastoid area (over the cochlea) and also the middle ear (I think). Here are a couple of web pages describing it ... since I'm thousands of miles from either clinic, it's only dreaming I guess (if it works I'd be happy to travel). http://www.tinnitus.us/treatmentoftinnitus.html http://www.dr-wilden.de/en/index.html >> Hi -- I'm a newbie that's been lurking for a few months. I'm wondering if >> anyone in this group has knowledge or experience with LLLT (Low Level [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What do they do, point the laser into your ear? > Yes ... more or less. They irradiate the mastoid area (over the cochlea) > and also the middle ear (I think). Here are a couple of web pages > describing it ... since I'm thousands of miles from either clinic, it's > only dreaming I guess (if it works I'd be happy to travel). > http://www.tinnitus.us/treatmentoftinnitus.html > http://www.dr-wilden.de/en/index.html No need to travel. Go to your local bicycle shop. Buy a cheap battery-operated red rear lamp. Now switch it on and shine it into your ears! This will have exactly the same effect as "laser therapy" and is so much cheaper... Steve On 8/12/06 7:54 AM, in article 4k68d4FalfftU1@individual.net, "Skycloud" <me@privacy.net> wrote: > No need to travel. Go to your local bicycle shop. Buy a cheap > battery-operated red rear lamp. Now switch it on and shine it into your > ears! This will have exactly the same effect as "laser therapy" and is so > much cheaper... > > Steve Great idea Steve. I am going out and buying these red rear lamps. I will then set up franchises for treating with these lamps. All you really need is a good web site. However I think I will start small with only 1,000 of these clinics to begin with. Thanks for the tip. We have used laser to put a hole through the ear drum. But we make sure that none of the "heat" gets to the inner ear where it could do damage. > Hi -- I'm a newbie that's been lurking for a few months. I'm wondering if > anyone in this group has knowledge or experience with LLLT (Low Level Laser [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Carl Carl, I am in Myrtle Beach right now seeing the group at http://curaelase.com/ for tinnitus and a separate leg ailment. The pain associated with the leg ailment is gone after three treatments. That alone has been worth the time there. The tinnitus has yet to see any improvement, but I will continue with the treatment until I leave in a few days. I guess time will tell if it ends up working and I will report the results as I go along. What you describe in terms of how it is treated is correct. The physicians point the laser towards the cochlea and surrounding areas to assure a maximum coverage. So, the jury is still out on the tinnitus. However, I can assure the doubters elsewhere in this thread that it works for other ailments. > > Hi -- I'm a newbie that's been lurking for a few months. I'm wondering if > > anyone in this group has knowledge or experience with LLLT (Low Level Laser [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > So, the jury is still out on the tinnitus. However, I can assure the > doubters elsewhere in this thread that it works for other ailments. How does it work? I am not exactly sure about the science behind it. Apparently, the laser penetrates the tissue and somehow promotes the healing or growth of cells thereby helping to reduce pain. What ever. The group that I am seeing is having some success with this. > I am not exactly sure about the science behind it. Apparently, the > laser penetrates the tissue and somehow promotes the healing or growth > of cells thereby helping to reduce pain. What ever. The group that I > am seeing is having some success with this. I can imagine it causes calcium deposits to break down, but that requires penetration of the skin, as you say, and that means burning. I think the only difference between laser light and regular light of the same frequency is that the photons of the laser light are emitted in nearly perfectly parallel rays, so the total energy striking the surface they hit is much higher. > So, the jury is still out on the tinnitus. However, I can assure the > doubters elsewhere in this thread that it works for other ailments. Okay I believe you. Then why not save some money and do the whole thing yourself at home with a bicycle lamp ? Are there any studies which have definitely established coherent (laser) light does something that incoherent (lamp) light does not? Steve > Okay I believe you. Then why not save some money and do the whole thing > yourself at home with a bicycle lamp ? > > Are there any studies which have definitely established coherent (laser) > light does somethin I don't know. I presume there are studies on this. I doubt a doctor would spend 100,000 dollars plus on medical lasers when they could use a regular lamps, as you suggest. > > Okay I believe you. Then why not save some money and do the whole thing > > yourself at home with a bicycle lamp ? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would spend 100,000 dollars plus on medical lasers when they could use > a regular lamps, as you suggest. I think medical lasers actually burn stuff or act as a catalyst for cohesive chemistry. I know my eye surgeon actually burned off parts of my corneas. Now I can see the Apollo moon landing site. And my dentist uses a laser to cause fillings to harden. So I would expect pointing a laser into your ear would have to destroy something to make a change, or it would do nothing at all. > I don't know. I presume there are studies on this. I doubt a doctor > would spend 100,000 dollars plus on medical lasers when they could use > a regular lamps, as you suggest. I shall await to see these studies - I have a feeling I'll be waiting for quite a while... I would think that the use of regular lamps wouldn't command such a market premium; after all they don't sound as exotic as 'lasers' - even if they did exactly the same thing. Fancy technology, fancy web sites, fancy consulting rooms, fancy bedside manner, and a fancy price... these all build up the credibility of the 'treatment' in the mind of the patient/victim. And anyway, once I've paid say $1000 for something, I have a vested interest in believing it works. However I admit all this fancy stuff also increases the placebo effect - and placebo can indeed work wonders in cases of tinnitus. Steve Thanks for jumping in GEO -- I knew someone HAD to be using this technique to justify all the write-ups. To partially respond to questions about how it works -- I believe the answer is still out, just as for ultrasound and physiotherapy, although the proposed theory is one of deep heating, but at non-destructive temperatures -- the same way as your body kills off rhino-viruses by plugging your nose and elevating the localized temperature. With the laser treatment (and moderate warming) of the cochlea, it's thought that some 'hair' rejuvenation is triggered. Please keep us up to date GEO ... I understand that benefits continue accruing for 3 - 6 months after treatment?? Carl >> Hi -- I'm a newbie that's been lurking for a few months. I'm wondering if >> anyone in this group has knowledge or experience with LLLT (Low Level [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > So, the jury is still out on the tinnitus. However, I can assure the > doubters elsewhere in this thread that it works for other ailments. > Thanks for jumping in GEO -- I knew someone HAD to be using this technique > to justify all the write-ups. > > To partially respond to questions about how it works -- But *does* it work? Where's the hard evidence? >I believe the answer is still out, just as for ultrasound and >physiotherapy, although the proposed theory is one of deep heating, but at >non-destructive temperatures -- Okay, let's say it works. But if its a penetrating heating effect you're after, red light from a bicycle lamp bulb would actually work better because most of its radiation is already in infra-red (heat) form anyway, unlike that from a laser... Steve > > Thanks for jumping in GEO -- I knew someone HAD to be using this technique > > to justify all the write-ups. > > > > To partially respond to questions about how it works -- > > But *does* it work? Where's the hard evidence? Skycloud, I've been looking around a bit and found this site (laserworld.org) for some information out there. As I've said before, I have not noticed an immediate improvement in my tinnitus. Time will tell I guess because the treatments can apparently have a prolonged healing effect that goes beyond the last treatment. What I have noticed is that it definitely helped on my (formerly) broken/dislocated foot/ankle. The discomfort I had is gone. I don't need to do that any longer. I also know several people that have been treated for ailments such as shoulder, hand, back and facial nerve pain. They have seen significant improvements. My word may not constitute hard evidence for you, but that's what I have seen, and experienced, so far. So, my immediate impression is this: the treatment works more for immediate actual pain, as opposed to lingering non-painful conditions like tinnitus, which doesn't really involve pain, but annoyance. If my tinnitus condition improves I will certainly notify the forum. > >I believe the answer is still out, just as for ultrasound and > >physiotherapy, although the proposed theory is one of deep heating, but at [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve > So, my immediate impression is this: the treatment works more for > immediate actual pain, as opposed to lingering non-painful conditions > like tinnitus, which doesn't really involve pain, but annoyance. If my > tinnitus condition improves I will certainly notify the forum. Well this is good news, even if it doesn't work for tinnitus. Had you thought of trying a simple heat lamp though? This might have been more effective than a laser for your pain conditions. I had heat treatment years ago, to help a prolapsed disc in my back. I'm a relative newbie to tinnitus (three years) but in that time it's certainly educated me as to the sheer level of quackery and wishful thinking out there. Steve > > So, my immediate impression is this: the treatment works more for > > immediate actual pain, as opposed to lingering non-painful conditions [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > certainly educated me as to the sheer level of quackery and wishful thinking > out there. When it comes to the treatment of tinnitus there's no doubt as to the quackery out there. Like you, I have researched it, and through this forum have discovered that there are plenty of snake oil schemes out there. I've been living with tinnitus for over 18 years so I've pretty much seen it all. Why I tried laser is that it is used by MD's. They have much more at stake and more to lose than, say, some Joe Blow selling some "natural" remedy. Not to say that there aren't quack doctors out there. That said, I went in to this not expecting as much for the ringing in the ears as I did alleviating pain in my foot mainly because I was familiar with the success on actual pain as opposed to tinnitus. I never considered a heat lamp because the laser isn't just the use of a penetrating heat, but also a particular wave of light entering the affected area and having some kind of healing effect at the cellular level. I wish I understood the science about this more. Hopefully, research and studies will become more widespread and some determinations can be made. LLLT is fairly new in practice. Although it's approved by the FDA I am not aware of insurance companies paying for it yet. I guess we just have to take a wait and see approach. If you find any more information about lasers please post it for the forum. > Steve > > > So, my immediate impression is this: the treatment works more for > > > immediate actual pain, as opposed to lingering non-painful conditions [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > > Steve SOunds to me like you are talking about the "Tinnitool" soft laser device developed by this swiss company. You can buy it at www.audiorelief.com.. It costs £195 but there is money back guarantee on that. It doesnt work for everyone but about 70% of people do see some or alot of improvement on their T. I been to other forums where some people say it did work, but some said it didnt, so its really hit and miss. Good luck. IMO
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