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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / May 2006

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Are T treatments based on cause+symtom?

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jga.socal - 08 May 2006 06:11 GMT
Are many proposed T treatments linked to cause and symtom? Or, maybe
just cause?

For example lets look at 2 people who have T.
We have Jane Doe. She is 33 years old, smokes, and drinks lots of decaf
coffee. She got T from allergies and has a high squeal in both ears.
We also have Chuck Smith.  Chuck is male, 50 years old, doesnt drink
coffee. He prolly got T from loud noise environments when he was
younger. He has a low roar T only in 1 ear.

Jane tries 'RemedyX' and reports a 50% relief from T volume.
Should Chuck consider trying 'RemedyX' based on Janes good results?

Wouldnt Chuck be smarter to look for treatment results from others who
have a profile similar to his?

Jim
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 08 May 2006 07:31 GMT
JIM,

The causes of T are very complicated.  Also the causes are
interrelated.  For example, it took me a long time to discover that I
was actually suffering from two illnesses that existed side by side,
albeit I still don't quite understand the interrelationship between
these two illnesses.

If you had to understand like an expert the cause or causes of your T
before you get it treated, you would be doing yourself a great
disfavor.  Old Ts are much harder to treat than new Ts.

Just try a range of treatments and see which one works.

Stop wasting your time.  See an experienced doctor.
Martin Smith - 08 May 2006 09:14 GMT
>JIM,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Just try a range of treatments and see which one works.

That doesn't answer his question. His question is: Given that T is
apparently caused multiple ways, then if treatment A works for case
histories that are similar to your own, and if treatment B works for
case histories that are not like yours at all, does it make more sense
to try A before B?

>Stop wasting your time.  See an experienced doctor.

...or drink beer?
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 08 May 2006 16:14 GMT
The test of pudding is in the eating.  He is wasting his time doing
scholarly work in this ng on this T.  What he should do is visit
someone like Murray who is experienced. Because of the association
here, he is likely to get a discount.
jga.socal - 08 May 2006 18:44 GMT
Francis.  I'm not ignoring medical treatment.  I have constant,
unwavering, high pitched hiss T in both ears.  I cant pinpoint the
exact time it appeared around 2.5 years ago.  I saw an ENT in July
2004, who did a hearing test. She ordered NO blood test.  She told me
there was nothing they could do, and to look into alternative
treatments.  So, here I am.  Fact is, I have another appt with the same
ENT next week.  Now that I'm more educated by reading the comments from
all you fine folks, I'm going to ask her more and better questions.
In this particular ng topic I am just trying to understand how to
interpret the myriad of comments from so many people on this ng
regarding their experimentation with remedies and treatments.  You have
said "try everything".  But, i'm wondering if maybe there is a smarter
way:  Try only those remedies/treatments that have proved successful to
those who share your medical T profile.  The following question must
be:  How do you recognize such peope when they contribute to this
newsgroup?  But, hey?  Maybe it's all for naught.  Maybe 1 remedy or
treatment should fit all?  I dunno.  Just asking...

Thanx for your concern and thoughful comments.  I'm always facinated by
your posts on this ng. I dont often understand them prolly cuz my
european ancestors only recently started wearing pants. (yes, I read
your earlier post before you removed it! No problem.)
Jim
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 09 May 2006 01:39 GMT
iga wrote:'You have said "try everything".  But, i'm wondering if maybe
there is a smarter
way:  Try only those remedies/treatments that have proved successful to
those who share your medical T profile. "

It makes sense on the surface but unfortunately from my experience the
cause of T is very difficult to pinpoint, otherwise your last ENT
doctor would have done it for you.  When I first had this maddening
illness, I posted my symptoms in this ng and described it vividly to
that many general physician, ENT and neurology doctors I visited here
in Hong Kong and China...but all to no avail.  After 1/2 year of
unneccessary suffering, I finally took the initiative to take away
hydrochloridethiazie from my blood pressure medicine regiment and it
brought on a first release!!!   I did this *on my own* after the
symptoms I had described of my T did not match any of what was
responded by the doctors both online and offline.  Without
hydrochloridethiasize, one set of problem disappeared while another set
came along...The solution to the second set came when Dr. Murray
suggested me to use another kind of direutics...So I found some release
from the second set of problem with the use of a new direutics...Then
later on with a routine check up, a Cambridge doctor prescribed me
gingko biloba, which transformed my brain ring into ringing on the ear
drum.  That was encouraging.   Finally I ran into an acupuncturist in
Vancouver and she finally, after giving me two treatments, put an nail
into the coffin of the 'somatic discomfort' that was constantly
bothering me.. It made me realize that the cause of my T *might* have
been from my nerve.  Later on while I was doing volunteer work teaching
English in a remote village in China, a herb doctor prescribed me some
herbs and the herbs seemed to have brought more release. Now after
months of treatment, I am doing OK.  By that I mean I can deliberately
listen to the sound of my T, it either is not there or is there but
very low in volume.  This is what I call 'cure'.

So what was the cause of my T?  I think the cause was multiple!  It
might have started with cause A, and then cause A created cause B...and
then B led to C...but all in all amounted to T.  Then my treatment
might have taken care of B, then the recovery of B might have led to
the recovery of A..and then C,,,etc.

I think you are wasting your time going back to the same doctor you
visited 2.5 years ago.  What are you trying to do?  Paying her the
money and helping her learn something about T?  Does this ENT doctor
you visited years ago participate into the ngs discussion here?  If
not, that means she has not been doing continuing education since she
graduated from medical school.  You should go to a doctor who has had a
lot of experience in treating T patients!

By the way, I did not remove any of my posts.  Someone else must have
done it cuz he did not like it.

FP
Mr. Y - 10 May 2006 13:41 GMT
The thing is ...
My ENT never even asked me about the pitch or cause of my tinnitus.  It
seems that the medical community is focused "medically proven" cure.
Unfortunately, no cure currently works works for everybody, so people resort
to alternative medicine.

> iga wrote:'You have said "try everything".  But, i'm wondering if maybe
> there is a smarter
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> FP
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 11 May 2006 02:15 GMT
If you look at the history of development in the field of medical
science throught the entire world, the 'alternative' should have been
the 'conventional'.
Jim Chinnis - 09 May 2006 03:39 GMT
"jga.socal" <jganders@gmail.com> wrote in part:

>Are many proposed T treatments linked to cause and symtom? Or, maybe
>just cause?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Jim

I'm afraid there are many problems with this good idea.

First, you can't really use testimonials. If nothing else, for any treatment
some will report getting worse and some better, even within your categories.
And, almost always, improvements reported are temporary and probably reflect
things like reporting bias. So you need studies that randomize patients to
multiple treatments, and we don't have those studies for the most part.

The biggest problem of all is just that no subsets of tinnitus patients have
been found that respond particularly to any treatment. The exceptions are
very few since cures are virtually unknown and most treatments are directed
to ALL tinnitus types.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

jga.socal - 09 May 2006 20:47 GMT
Jim Chinnis, I agree that testimonials can be very subjective, but I'm
not sure I'd call a patient's own testimonial 'reporting bias'.  Maybe
more like 'subjective bias'.  Anyway, the data collection I infer from
the topic should not be thought of as originating from a medical study.
The source can be a simple internet-based survey.  I'd be willing to
bet that most people wouldnt mind providing basic info about their T
(at least on an anonymous basis) if it could be useful to others.  You
said "...most treatments are directed to ALL tinnitus types".
Are you satisfied with this? Or do you think treatments should be
linked to cause and symptom?  Thanx alot.
jga.socal - 11 May 2006 20:41 GMT
With that last question I guess I made it to Chinnis's killfile.  Sigh.
Jim Chinnis - 11 May 2006 21:19 GMT
"jga.socal" <jganders@gmail.com> wrote in part:

>With that last question I guess I made it to Chinnis's killfile.  Sigh.

It's not THAT easy to get there.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Jim Chinnis - 11 May 2006 21:18 GMT
"jga.socal" <jganders@gmail.com> wrote in part:

>Jim Chinnis, I agree that testimonials can be very subjective, but I'm
>not sure I'd call a patient's own testimonial 'reporting bias'.  Maybe
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Are you satisfied with this? Or do you think treatments should be
>linked to cause and symptom?  Thanx alot.

No, I'm not satisfied. Yes, treatments should--if possiblke--be linked to
specific cause. Whether they should be linked to specific symptom (type of
tinnitus) is not obvious.

The difficulty here is that you can't find any consistency anywhere as to
efficacy of a specific treatment except in very, very few cases. If you look
at the scientific data, you'll find anitibiotic treatment of some infectious
diseases, treatment with aspirin of rare problems with the hair cells,
occasional responsiveness of tinnitus related to hydrops to diuretics or
hydration schemes or sodium reduction, etc.

If you look at individual reports, you could probably build a table of
treatments crossed with symptom and find complete chaos. If you restricted
the data to be long term, you'd probably still find chaos.

It's hard enough to determine if a treatment helps in a randomized
controlled trial. Relying on anecdotal reports would be a whole lot worse.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Mr. Y - 10 May 2006 13:36 GMT
I totally agree with this.  Tinnitus and the causes are not well understood.
Although it would be nice to understand this, we don't.  That being said, I
think it would be very helpful to compile information  linking the suspected
cause, sound, what works, and what makes it worse.  Yes, there is a lot of
variation and it depends on how the person feels at the time, but I think
that if a large enough sample was examined, this would make sense.

I like this sight, because they attempt to explain and cure T based on sound
and cause.  I don't know if the product works, but I like the approach they
are taking.  I'm sure that it's not so easy to determine cause as their
website implies, but at least they try.
http://www.t-gone.com/
If anybody has tried this product, I would love an unbiased opinion.

> Are many proposed T treatments linked to cause and symtom? Or, maybe
> just cause?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Jim
Susan - 10 May 2006 13:45 GMT
> I like this sight, because they attempt to explain and cure T based on sound
> and cause.  I don't know if the product works, but I like the approach they
> are taking.  I'm sure that it's not so easy to determine cause as their
> website implies, but at least they try.
> http://www.*[snipped to avoid commercial promotion]*
> If anybody has tried this product, I would love an unbiased opinion.

No one here has ever reported any benefits from the named product.  The
only effect seems to have been transfer of wealth from T sufferer to
product pusher.

Susan
jga.socal - 10 May 2006 17:26 GMT
Mr Y.
T-Gone is the only alt 'remedy' I've tried, around 18 months ago.  I
was impressed with their approach.  The components of the remedy are
based upon the type of T you think you have. See
http://www.t-gone.com/ingredients-frame.asp.

My trial with this stuff did not produce results. See my cynical
evaluation at
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.tinnitus/browse_thread/thread/ddca5dc
c73b53e2d?hl=en

Note: It looks to me like their ingredient list has changed in the last
18 months...

Based partially upon my empirical sample of 1, I tend to discount *any*
commercial T remedy that is offered on the internet. The biggest reason
for my opinion is that there is no 'Consumer Reports' type of
organization to keep vendors honest.  This situation creates a
wild-wild west environment for snake-oil vendors.  Arent I the tough
customer!  This, and another 2, newsgroups are as close to a 'T
Consumer Reports' organization as we are going to get right now. You
just have to sift thru the archives to get the data you need...

Jim
Murray Grossan - 11 May 2006 01:39 GMT
On 5/10/06 9:26 AM, in article
1147278397.298843.120580@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "jga.socal"
<jganders@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mr Y.
> T-Gone is the only alt 'remedy' I've tried, around 18 months ago.  I
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Jim

The best way to select a product on the internet is to evaluate the happy
smiling faces  that accompany the advertisement. Esp the ones who look
sincere, bright and truly happy. If the product can make these people so
happy, why not you? Take a look at the Cialis ad.
Eric J. Scharer - 11 May 2006 00:37 GMT
I naively tried T-gone two years after I got T. It is a scam, I have never
read of anyone getting any benefit from this white powder. I recently
e-mailed the" salesman" why Dr. Brom is no longer mentioned on their
Website. The answer was "he passed away".  Of course, they are still
selling the product. Their original "story" was that the "remedies" were
secret stuff discovered and personally made by Brom. I wonder who
makes the"remedies" now? Save your money.

Eric

>I totally agree with this.  Tinnitus and the causes are not well
>understood. Although it would be nice to understand this, we don't.  That
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>
>> Jim
 
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