Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / May 2006
Differences in habituation among T sufferers - possible explanation
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Joe Sterling - 25 Apr 2006 05:28 GMT I've read that some folks habituate to tinnitus at different rates, that most do after a period lasting from a few months to a few years. And yet there are some that do not habituate -- that is, their tinnitus continues to bother them even after many years.
I wonder if this might be related to differences between tinnitus that stems from damage of some kind to the inner ear and tinnitus that might be caused by some kind of damage to the auditory cortex.
I have read that Jastreboff and Hazell have proposed that the tinnitus signal originates as a weak signal in the inner ear and that there are multiple sub-cortical filters that can be brought into play through tinnitus retraining therapy (TRT) to cause the cortex to cease paying attention to it.
But what if the tinnitus signal orignates in the auditory cortex itself, upstream from all of the neurological machinary that TRT is supposed to train to ignore it. Could that account for those cases where people cannot seem to habituate, even though their tinnitus, when evaluated using matching techniques, does not seem materially different in pitch or loudness to cases where people do habituate?
If there is tinnitus that does not originate in the inner ear or auditory nerve, but in the brain, then it is very unlike any real sound in that all of the neurological subsystems that (according to TRT) can gate out real noise are unavailable.
In any case, it seems to me that TRT's success rate is not that much better (over the recommended 18 month period) than natural habituation that occurs without any kind of treatment.
Perhaps the people who fail at natural habituation and (in some cases) fail even with other types of therapy (including TRT), are suffering from a centrally-generated form of tinnitus that cannot be habituated to in the way one can adjust to peripherally-generated tinnitus, which comes into consciousness in the same way real sounds do.
Just a thought; I'm certainly still just learning about T (having had it for about two months).
Elly Byrne - 25 Apr 2006 21:48 GMT http://eebee.net/TinnitusIsaPainintheNeck.shtml
Elly.
>I've read that some folks habituate to tinnitus at different rates, >that most do after a period lasting from a few months to a few years. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >Just a thought; I'm certainly still just learning about T (having had >it for about two months). Elly Byrne ---------- The Ultimate Supertip from Harvey Segal http://tinyurl.com/bg7h2
Jim Chinnis - 26 Apr 2006 03:36 GMT "Joe Sterling" <bgmpsl@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
>I've read that some folks habituate to tinnitus at different rates, >that most do after a period lasting from a few months to a few years. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >Just a thought; I'm certainly still just learning about T (having had >it for about two months). Nice thinking, Joe. I think, though, that tinnitus is more complex than that. When PET or functional-MRI brain imaging has been done, it turns out that "ordinary" tinnitus doesn't affect the same regions of the auditory cortex as real external sounds of the same spectra. I don't think the "tinnitus signal" is something that usually travels from inner ear to cortex. It is more of a disruption of normal inbound and outbound signalling. Elimination of the inner ear usually causes tinnitus or leaves it intact, after all. Even in silence, the inner ear is busy generating signals. With some kind of damage, maybe those signals are gone and the next waystation in the ascent to the cortex behaves improperly in response to the missing signals. Etc.
Bottom line: I don't think you can separate ear and cortical tinnitus very well.
AS to why habituation fails sometimes or varies in level of success, i don't think I'd take Jastreboff's model as proven. We really don't know why some people have more trouble than others, despite the great insights that jastreboff has provided.
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
ferdie - 27 Apr 2006 22:34 GMT depends on how loud the tinnitus is
> I've read that some folks habituate to tinnitus at different rates, > that most do after a period lasting from a few months to a few years. > And yet there are some that do not habituate -- that is, their tinnitus > continues to bother them even after many years. fyfpoon@gmail.com - 03 May 2006 16:36 GMT Joe wrote:"Just a thought; I'm certainly still just learning about T (having had it for about two months)."
Since you have had it for just 2 months, you owe it to yourself to see an EXPERIENCED doctor or a doctor who has the experiences of treating tinnitus. Most doctors do NOT have the experiences. This is a fact. I went to about 15 doctors when I had tinnitus about 2 years ago and most of them either did not have the experienced or had the experience but did not know how to treat *my* T.
You are free to 'learn about T" but you may be paying an expensive tuition just to learn about it without actually having an experienced doctor treat it!
I would suggest you make an appointment with Dr. Murray in this group. I am promoting him because he has been with us for a long time and you can be sure he has had the experiences of treating T. So why waste time looking around? Also, he has been around the globe, giving lectures and learning from local doctors of various countries, and thus intellectually has been enabled by his global exposure to perceive reality from an all-round perspective as opposed to the linear-thinking/ single dimensional approach that some of the indigenous doctors in small towns employ.
Take my advice. Go and make an appointment. Afterwards feel free to "learn about T" all you want!
Joe Sterling - 09 May 2006 06:06 GMT > Joe wrote:"Just a thought; I'm certainly still just learning about T > (having had it for about two months)." [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Take my advice. Go and make an appointment. Afterwards feel free to > "learn about T" all you want! Thanks for the advice. I live in Colorado, and I have seen two well-known local ENTs who are experienced in treating tinnitus. I very much agree with you about the need to do this, and I did it within one week of developing this problem. I have had blood tests and an MRI to rule out likely medical causes, such as an acoustic neuroma. Nothing was found,
Like many people, my tinnitus is of "unknown origin". I just woke up with it one day. The first few weeks were awful, and I had an overwhelming sense of despair and panic, most of which has subsided. I think I am also beginning to habituate because, while I still have constant awareness of it, I can "ignore" it for increasing periods of time, I put "ignore" in quotes because it is not as if I am unaware of it, it's just that there are times that it bothers me less. Hard to describe why.
I have visited Dr, Grossan's Web site and have read about his treatment for tinnitus based on relaxation therapy. It does appear to me to be a valid approach.
It is interesting to me that the basic physiological mechanism is still in dispute, given that this condition is so widespread and has been around for so long. I think the reason for that is probably related to the difficulty in developing an objective measure for tinnitus (beyond sufferer's individual reports), and the lack of an animal model.
Joe
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 09 May 2006 06:58 GMT Well Joe,
Since you have visited the best 'modern' ENT doctors around and the illness is still there, you may as well try out 'alternative' doctors. I have never been fascinated with the romantic notion of habituation. As far as I am concered, your T is not treated at all. By having it treated, I mean I can deliberately listen to the T sound in my ear and find either it is not there or is there in very low volume.
So forget about your 'modern' approach for a while, go to 'alternative' for a change.
Add the following one by one so that you can be in the position to tell any possible cause and effect relationship: (1)take one tablet of gingko biloba each morning before breakfast. I am taking the ones made of dried leafs, manufactured by Century 21 in Arizona. They are very good. Talk to your local pharmacist first and ask his experience. Gingko Biloba was prescribed to me by a doctor who graduated from Cambridge University in UK. I think he knows what he is doing as much as any of your American doctors there does. (2)Visit a chiropractor once a week to have your spine relaxed. A pitched spine can lead to tinnitus. Some people get tinnitus simply by sitting in front of a computer with an improper head posture over a prolonged time period. (3)do away with a high pillow, instead use a wrapped tower to support your neck while you sleep. This helps your spine. (4)Avoid napping during day time. Use coffee if you want. (5)Visit a certified acupuncturist. If you happen to visit Vancouver, call Dr.Zhang at 604-4390865. I visited her about a year ago. Two treatments from her bailed me out of the world of a tormenting hell !
Remember, T is a very troublesome illness. Even if you have done all the right things, you still need time for its recovery. If something feels not comfortable after you try it, then drop it.
Go try and good luck. NO more 'modern' medical treatment for a while. You can come back later on.
Jim Chinnis - 09 May 2006 15:59 GMT "Joe Sterling" <bgmpsl@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
> I think the reason for that is probably related to >the difficulty in developing an objective measure for tinnitus (beyond >sufferer's individual reports), and the lack of an animal model. Tinnitus can be measured according to psychophysical scaling techniques, pretty much the same way all other experience is measured.
And there are very good animal models.
What makes it difficult is that the auditory system has many layers that interact with one another. Some are encased in bone and others are in the brain. Interactions at microscopic levels are functional. Not an easy task.
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
Joe Sterling - 10 May 2006 03:13 GMT > "Joe Sterling" <bgmpsl@hotmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG You seem to know a lot about tinnitus, Jim.
Can you elaborate on what "psychophysical scaling techniques" are, and what animal models exist (or point me to a source)?
My ENT told me that one of the problems with evaluating treatments for tinnitus is that the only measure is to ask people if they have gotten better after a given therapy, or to try to match their experience of tinnitus to a real sound, and see if they describe a decrease. But the report given on the latter is based again on what the subject says. So measuring the efficacy of a tinnitus therapy is like measuring which school of psychotherapy is most effective.
Incidentally, several years ago there was a study by someone named (I think) Lockwood that claimed to have found "the source" of tinnitus, or at least which regions of the brain were activated/involved in tinnitus in distinction to activation by real sounds. But I have not heard/read about any follow up. What is the current thinking on this, if you know.
Even given the complexity of the auditory system, it still surprises me that, for something so potentially debilitating and widespread, more is not known.
Thanks,
Joe
Jim Chinnis - 10 May 2006 05:21 GMT "Joe Sterling" <bgmpsl@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
>You seem to know a lot about tinnitus, Jim. Unfortunately, no one knows much about tinnitus.
>Can you elaborate on what "psychophysical scaling techniques" are, and >what animal models exist (or point me to a source)? I'll post on this a bit later. Too late right now.
>My ENT told me that one of the problems with evaluating treatments for >tinnitus is that the only measure is to ask people if they have gotten [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >measuring the efficacy of a tinnitus therapy is like measuring which >school of psychotherapy is most effective. It's more like measuring the efficacy of a painkiller or an antidepressant. Both of those are quantified all the time.
>Incidentally, several years ago there was a study by someone named (I >think) Lockwood that claimed to have found "the source" of tinnitus, or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >that, for something so potentially debilitating and widespread, more is >not known. Good comments. Let me try to say a bit later. I just wanted to respond now to the easy things while I remembered...
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
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