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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / February 2006Help for Tinnitus Sufferers
Instructions from Dr. Poon Perform the following steps: (1)sleep with a chiro pillow or use a wrapped towel to support your neck when you sleep. (2)Visit a chiro once a week to have your spine relaxed. (3)With the advice of your pharmacist, take one tablet of gingko biloba each morning with breakfast and do so for at least 3 months. (4)If you visit Vancouver, call this Dr.Zhang for a couple of visit to her acupuncture clinic(604-4390865). Remember, the treatment of tinnitus takes a long long time. So repeat the above steps for as long as you can. Gingko biloba helps your body in other aspects. One tablet a day under the instruction of your phamacist is not going to do you any harm at all. You can always reduce it to half if you want. Buy those that are made of leafs but not extracts. Thank you for calling me a doctor albeit I have not had any medical training at all. But since none of the 15 trained doctor I have visited is of any good and has no clue what was happening to my T, I had to finally read enough books and try enough methods to have declared victory over my T, I thus feel previleged being called a doctor and I think I deserve every bit of it! > Thank you for calling me a doctor albeit I have not had any medical > training at all. But since none of the 15 trained doctor I have > visited is of any good and has no clue what was happening to my T, I > had to finally read enough books and try enough methods to have > declared victory over my T, I thus feel previleged being called a > doctor and I think I deserve every bit of it! What did you do to cure T? I finally found out that i was suffering from a mix of 2 ills, which may or may not have been related to each other. These two ills were:(1)discomfort in the head and (2)noise. I by accident ran into that Dr.Zhang in Vancouver and after two treatments my discomfort was gone! She explained to me that the discomfort was due to a pinched nerve in the spine, which might have come about as a result of sitting in front of a computer with an improper head posture often for prolonged time periods. The second ill was noise, which gradually came down with gingko biloba, neck stretching exercise, and ..............TIME. During this time period I noticed that using a wrapped towel to support my neck while I slept made a whole world of difference! Actually if you could lie flat while you sleep, it is even better. I used to be afraid of napping. Now, I nap whenever I want and this is a big improvement. However, try to avoid napping if you can. Enrol yourself into an exercise program in order to train yourself to ignore the sound. Remember, even if you have done all the right thing, it still takes time for t to go away or to come down in volume. The nerve takes time to heal! About 2 years ago my t started, and i came to this group, which was a group of dooms and grooms. A guy named Ringing Ear told the group that his sister-in-law in Toronto got treated of her head noice using acupuncture, but the rest of the group either ridiculed him or ignored what he had to say. The reason was because the irresponsible statement or generalization "there is no cure for tinnitus" was so powerfully popular. And 'doctors' came along to espouse their 'habituation' theory, citing all sorts of 'controlled' studies. Many people mistook that advice to be what it liternally was, that is, do nothing and habituate! > About 2 years ago my t started, and i came to this group, which was a > group of dooms and grooms. LOL! A guy named Ringing Ear told the group that > his sister-in-law in Toronto got treated of her head noice using > acupuncture, but the rest of the group either ridiculed him or ignored > what he had to say. This is untrue. Some folks posted controlled studies of acupuncture for T that found no benefit, and I mentioned that one person who used to post here felt that it may have helped her some. > The reason was because the irresponsible statement > or generalization "there is no cure for tinnitus" was so powerfully > popular. There is no cure where the cause of tinnitus *is not found*, which is most of the time, or when damage is permanent. For some of us, the cure is treatment for infection, hormonal dysregulation, hyperinsulinemia. > And 'doctors' came along to espouse their 'habituation' > theory, citing all sorts of 'controlled' studies. What doctors were those? You label a lot of non doctors as doctors, including yourself. >Many people mistook > that advice to be what it liternally was, that is, do nothing and > habituate! The same folks who talk about their successful habituation also talk about many techniques, quite different from doing "nothing." Masking, hypnosis, medications, supplements, diet and TRT have all been discussed. It's important for folks to google your usenet posting history in order to evaluate you and your negative, self aggrandizing and inaccurate contributions here. Susan Susan, the statement "there is no cure for tinnitus" has never been qualified by so many conditions as you have cited. You put the words into the months of those who espoused it. How accurate is your contribution? By being accurate, do you mean you have found the right treatments for the types of tinnitus described here by tinnitus patients? At least I have been narrating my own type of tinnitus in great details and the solutions for it. Individuals that are suffering from similar symptoms can make reference of what I have posted. And I have visited 15 doctors to have come to a conclusion that most doctors are at a loss when it comes to treating tinnitus. So how have you helped the participants around here? The type or types of tinnitus ill you cited above should be handled by professionals but not with someone as amateurish as you are and to do so online! > Susan, the statement "there is no cure for tinnitus" has never been > qualified by so many conditions as you have cited. No, I've been posting and reading here for years longer than you have, and all of those causes have been discussed by all participants. You put the words > into the months of those who espoused it. How accurate is your > contribution? By being accurate, do you mean you have found the right > treatments for the types of tinnitus described here by tinnitus > patients? Some of us have, yes, others have come and gone who have. At least I have been narrating my own type of tinnitus in > great details and the solutions for it. Individuals that are suffering > from similar symptoms can make reference of what I have posted. And I > have visited 15 doctors to have come to a conclusion that most doctors > are at a loss when it comes to treating tinnitus. So how have you > helped the participants around here? With information, rather than orders to do as I say and slams against every other participant and the group as a whole. The type or types of tinnitus ill > you cited above should be handled by professionals but not with someone > as amateurish as you are and to do so online! You take amateurish to a level heretofore unimagined. I leave readers to google up your usenet history to confirm it. Susan Just answer my questions directly without getting other people to google my other posts as a way to alleviate your lack of credible cause for having 'talked back' in this thread. If you don't have anything to say, just be silent! > Just answer my questions directly without getting other people to > google my other posts as a way to alleviate your lack of credible > cause for having 'talked back' in this thread. If you don't have > anything to say, just be silent! I'll continue to respond in the way I think is appropriate, without any instruction from you. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Susan Is Francis back ranting and raving? What a nutcase. frank Yes, ranting and raving as I am. But i do help and i do get an audience. How about you? Do you help? > Instructions from Dr. Poon > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > going to do you any harm at all. You can always reduce it to half if you > want. Buy those that are made of leafs but not extracts. Geez, Francis aint' no doctor and he should feel ashamed for mis- leading posters as such. Ginko, in most to all studies has shown to be INEFFECTIVE for tinnitus and can cause brain hemorrhages so it should be taken with prudence and caution so yes, it can cause harm. frank Dr., this is not meant to insult your intelligence. As far as I am cocerned, you do not even have the basic intellectual substance to express yourself in an objective manner. Look at what you have said: "Ginko, in most to all studies has shown to be INEFFECTIVE for tinnitus..." Have you or has anyone done a survey as to the percentage of studies ever conducted on gingko "all over the world' and discovered that "most" or more than half of the studies done have demonstrated this conclusion?. "and can cause brain hemorrhages so it should be taken with prudence and caution so yes, it can cause harm." If it could 'definitely' cause brain hemmorrhages, it should not be taken at all and it should NOT be taken even with prudence and caution. Go and polish up your English before coming back. > Dr., this is not meant to insult your intelligence. As far as I am > cocerned, you do not even have the basic intellectual substance to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Go and polish up your English before coming back. Francis, why are you such a nitwit?? I have better luck conversing with a 7 year old than with someone like you. I am not going to waste my time on you submitting to you ALL the studies on Gingko that show it to be ineffective or inconclusive. You would just scratch your head and dismiss them anyway. You obviously do not have the skills to grasp the concept of the "benefit vs risk" ratio used in medicine. One has to weigh the possible benefit of gingko (small) with their tinnitus to getting a bleed (small). Does everyone get a bleed? Of course not, doofus. But does one want to risk a brain bleed to help their tinnitus (not likely)? That's up to the individual to decide. So my remarks are consistent no matter how you try to mangle them. frank If taking gingko as prescribed OTC has a high likelihoold of causing brain bleeding, and if having one's neck manipulated by a certified chiro runs the risk of having one's neck broken, and if the prescribed amount of sleeping pills causes people to sleep forever, these 3 practices should have been stopped long time ago either through public outrage or lawsuits. Too much of aspirin can also cause brain breeding too. So does it mean people should stop using aspirin? When a manufacturer of gingko sells its products, does it produce instruction on how much is appropriate in view of its own research? What kind of doctor are you? >Geez, Francis aint' no doctor and he should feel ashamed for mis- >leading posters as such. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >cause brain hemorrhages so it should be taken with >prudence and caution so yes, it can cause harm. It does help some people so should not be written off completely. Studies are not the 'be all' and 'end all' of medicine. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ > > It does help some people so should not be written off completely. > Studies are not the 'be all' and 'end all' of medicine. Elly, one of the cornerstones (IMO) for ethical medical practice is that it has to be driven by "evidence base". The basis of "evidence based" medicine is on valid and repeatable studies showing the benefits of the treatment in question. Thus, I can't tell my patients to "stare at the sun" and you'll no longer need to wear glasses. There are no valid or repeatable studies to support my claim. Ginko falls into the category that the studies (at least at the ones I'm aware of)are from inconclusive to being totally ineffective so anyone that touts it otherwise is ignoring the evidence. frank > Elly, one of the cornerstones (IMO) for ethical medical practice > is that it has to be driven by "evidence base". The basis of > "evidence based" medicine is on valid and repeatable studies > showing the benefits of the treatment in question. This is just not so in good clinical practice, where trial and observatin is sometimes the best "evidence" one has. Often, the studies are crap, too; like HRT, frex. Clinical experience by a thoughtful, experienced clinician trumps it every time, IME. > Thus, I can't tell my patients to "stare at the sun" and you'll > no longer need to wear glasses. There are no valid or repeatable > studies to support my claim. Bad example. It's known to cause only harm, never a benefit. > Ginko falls into the category that the studies (at least at the ones > I'm aware of)are from inconclusive to being totally ineffective so > anyone that touts it otherwise is ignoring the evidence. The problem with Ginkgo isn't that studies find no use for it, even Steven Nagler recommended experimenting with it due to some positive evidence and anecdotes, but only if one could find a standardized product; he recommended one in particlar, Ginkgold. The problem is that many such products don't contain a reliable amount of the active substance. The other problem is that folks need to know not to take it with any other anti-thrombotic, such as garlic, fish oil, vitamin E or aspirin, for examples. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > are crap, too; like HRT, frex. Clinical experience by a thoughtful, > experienced clinician trumps it every time, IME. Susan, the problem arises for someone to tell whether something is a "sham" by trial and observation versus something that may be indeed valid. There's also a problem w. testersubject bias (whether conscious or not)- someone is who so convinced that his/her treatment works that the "observation" is manipulated or falls into the placebo effect. That's why studies like double blind or independent (objective) verification is so important. Many "observation" type discoveries in the clinical setting can lead to new treatments later verified by studies, especially "off-label" medications (antidepressants for tinnitus for example). Are some studies "crap"? Sure, but there's where the "evidence base" comes into play- is the ponderance of evidence (studies, clinical observation) of treatment in favor or not? If a thousand studies (valid) shows that the treatment doesn't work in contrast to a couple of observations/studies that show otherwise, in which direction is the evidence pointing to? > > Thus, I can't tell my patients to "stare at the sun" and you'll > > no longer need to wear glasses. There are no valid or repeatable > > studies to support my claim. > > Bad example. It's known to cause only harm, never a benefit. Actually there's a near cult-like following of Bates (an opthalmologist of many decades past)who claimed that sun gazing and staring at the sun is beneficial in eye relaxation and helps to rid of glasses. The overwhelming evidence (other than Bates) points otherwise, don't you agree? Bates based his treatments without any studies (most, if not 100% ,of the independent studies debunked has debunked his work many times over) but on his observations alone. > > Ginko falls into the category that the studies (at least at the ones > > I'm aware of)are from inconclusive to being totally ineffective so [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > evidence and anecdotes, but only if one could find a standardized > product; he recommended one in particlar, Ginkgold. Actually, there have been many studies concerning ginkgo and it is inconclusive although the "evidence" points to it being ineffective. Hey, I'm not against people experimenting but they have to realize the risks involved (from what you mentioned, poor standardization, synergistic reactions with other medications to brain bleeds). Many people think that because a product is otc that it must be safe which is not true. frank > Susan, the problem arises for someone to tell whether something > is a "sham" by trial and observation versus something that may > be indeed valid. Frank, sadly, that's also the case with many drugs that pass the FDA approval process. Among them, HRT, LymeRix, Rezulin, Vioxx, Celebrex, off the top of my head. Empiric trials with a good doctor have yielded a cure for my child after a horrid 3 1/2 years of tick borne diseases, and have helped me in many ways for various conditions. It's up to us to be informed consumers who do our homework, not blindly led sheep who do what we're told by doctors afraid to think for themselves and to take carefully thought out chances. > There's also a problem w. testersubject bias (whether conscious or > not)- > someone is who so convinced that his/her treatment works that > the "observation" is manipulated or falls into the placebo > effect. The largest meta study to look at the question has found this to be untrue. But folks keep repeating it as if it is true. That's why studies like double blind or independent (objective) > verification is so important. Frenk, not every single clinically useful treatment is going to be studied in that way, it's not what the economic structure fosters. The treatment protocol that cured my child was never, and may never be studied for the off label use we employed. I'm not sorry we tried it with 100% success. Many "observation" type discoveries in > the > clinical setting can lead to new treatments later verified by studies, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that show otherwise, in which direction is the evidence pointing > to? HRT. SIDS. Thousands of studies claimed a CVD benefit for low fat diets, but it was never true. Same with HRT, the benefits EVERYONE knew to be true were in fact, elevated risks. Crap science comes wrapped in the veneer of respectability way too often.> >>>Thus, I can't tell my patients to "stare at the sun" and you'll >>>no longer need to wear glasses. There are no valid or repeatable [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > has debunked his work many times over) but on his observations > alone. One nut job doesn't make this an apt analogy. :-) My point stands. > Actually, there have been many studies concerning ginkgo and it > is inconclusive although the "evidence" points to it being ineffective. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > people think that because a product is otc that it must be safe > which is not true. Many people believe that their doc knows a lot about the drugs he's rx'ing, or the illness he's treating, til they do their own homework. Caveat emptor applies to both doctor's care, rx drugs and OTC. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > do what we're told by doctors afraid to think for themselves and to take > carefully thought out chances. The importance of evidence based medicine is in the dynamic nature- newer studies outweighing initial results. In the case of many drugs clinical observations leads to investigation(s). In the case of tinnitus it may well go the route of what happened for your child. The specialist I see recommended grape seed extract, he has heard anectodal accounts from his peers that gse may be beneficial but future investigations and studies will be the way to see if it really works. . > Many people believe that their doc knows a lot about the drugs he's > rx'ing, or the illness he's treating, til they do their own homework. > Caveat emptor applies to both doctor's care, rx drugs and OTC. The bigger danger lies in the person self-treating w.o. getting the correct facts. The original poster thought Francis was a doctor of all things - the internet can be a very dangerous with some people taking it as fact if it's printed. I can see someone thinking "if a little is good, maybe a whole lot will be better" type of mentality. In the case of ginkgo, that could be dangerous. frank > The bigger danger lies in the person self-treating w.o. getting the > correct facts. I understand you believe this, and maybe in your experience it's been true. I have not found doctors to be well informed about the risks or AEs of medications they rx, except for the most commonly reported ones. They are notoriously ignorant of drug interactions. The biggest risk is taking an active substance or undergoing treatment without researching it yourself, rx or not. > The original poster thought Francis was a doctor of all > things - the internet can be a very dangerous with some people > taking it as fact if it's printed. I can see someone thinking "if > a little is good, maybe a whole lot will be better" type of > mentality. In the case of ginkgo, that could be dangerous. It can be true of anything, even drinking water. Susan Just taking away the aspirin and some kinds of HB pressure med is fine. Actually, gingko in my experience has helped lower my blood pressure! I am taking calcium channel blocker and AGE inhibitor. But a pharmacist feels gingko may neutralize HYDROCHLORITHIAZER if taken at the same time. While HBP pills are usually taken in the morning, gingko can be taken after lunch or dinner daily to avoid the interaction. For example, I usually don't drink tea for at least one houre after taking HBP pills in the morning. It was gingko that first turned my ear ring into a drum ring. It was recommended to me by a Cambridge doctor. Gingko helps with the blood circulation and improved blood circulation helps nerve recovery, which in turn helps tinnitus "for some people". Evidence? The following in my view is the most objective: http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/information/info%20sheets/front%20page/complementary_ therapy.htm "Three quite small studies carried out in the 1990's did show that Gingko was fairly effective in reducing tinnitus, but the largest study carried out to date - which involved many BTA members - showed more disappointing results. Ewart Davies and his team at Birmingham University, concluded that Gingko was not an effective treatment for tinnitus for most people, although the possibility remains that certain individuals might benefit, so the book is not yet closed on this one." I AS A T PATIENT CAN TELL YOU THAT IT HELPED ME. Call it psychological if you can.
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