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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / February 2006newbie
Hello, I've had constant bilateral tinnitus for a week now, so here I am. I'll post my complete story in the future. For now, just some questions: - Does tinnitus develops all of a sudden? Being a swimmer and a very active music listener I could easily track the cause on one of that, but I've been quiet for at least 2 months (no swimming and not so much loud music, surely not in the last weeks), so I'm a bit puzzled on that. - Does Neurontin has tinnitus has a side effect? I was on day 3 when it all started. Thanks. > I've had constant bilateral tinnitus for a week now, so here I am. I'll > post my complete story in the future. For now, just some questions: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > - Does Neurontin has tinnitus has a side effect? I was on day 3 when it > all started. The consensus is that tinnitus does start suddenly and more that likely, as with me, with no apparent cause. Apart from indulging in loud music I've not heard of any other specific initiator, although there may be some meds that may have it as a side effect, I was on Bezalip for six months before mine started. Incidentally, I now find that physical exertion, especialy swimming, increases the T volume. Something to do with strain on the neck muscles I think. Tinnitus is most likely a result of muscle tension. Has anything happened recently that could have increased tension in your body? Computers? Phones? New job? What does your tinnitus sound like? A quiet hum? A loud engine? Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Thanks. Elly Byrne ha scritto: > Tinnitus is most likely a result of muscle tension. Has anything > happened recently that could have increased tension in your body? > Computers? Phones? New job? > > What does your tinnitus sound like? A quiet hum? A loud engine? To say the truth i'm suffering of a palpable anxiety disorder: palpitations, muscle spasms, tremors etc, and we still have to put clarity into that. Tinnitus developed of a sudden while I was on neurontin, who calmed all the other stuff but unleashed the noise. Obviously, it can be just a coincidence. Anyway my tinnitus is a constant and very acute tone, actually far from intolerable, must get used to it. Funnily, if I close my nose and put pressure in the ears the noise goes away for a bit. I've had a feeling of pressure (like something was in it) into my left ear since 2001 at least, with a perception of ipoacusis. 2 audiological exams have stated that all was good and that weren't fluids into the ear. Why are you taking Nuerontin? It sometimes leads to memory loss as a side effect. > Elly Byrne ha scritto: > > Tinnitus is most likely a result of muscle tension. Has anything [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > least, with a perception of ipoacusis. 2 audiological exams have stated > that all was good and that weren't fluids into the ear. The doc gave it to me for the anxiety and the spasms. Bob ha scritto: > Why are you taking Nuerontin? It sometimes leads to memory loss as a side > effect. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>least, with a perception of ipoacusis. 2 audiological exams have stated >>that all was good and that weren't fluids into the ear. > Tinnitus is most likely a result of muscle tension. How can you diagnose it so quickly? There are other causes beyond "muscle tension" --- William Porto http://www.privatesounds.net A blog about tinnitus and other things. I have been reading this newsgroup for well over 10 years. There maybe different symptoms, but the common denominator is usually muscle tension. http://eebee.net/TinnitusIsaPainintheNeck.shtml Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >> Tinnitus is most likely a result of muscle tension. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >http://www.privatesounds.net >A blog about tinnitus and other things. Yea and let's not even get into the destroyed hair cells. That's just a minor annoyance! Eric >I have been reading this newsgroup for well over 10 years. There maybe > different symptoms, but the common denominator is usually muscle [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>http://www.privatesounds.net >>A blog about tinnitus and other things. Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in > I have been reading this newsgroup for well over 10 years. > There maybe different symptoms, but the common denominator > is usually muscle tension. Hi Elly For those out there who are suffering from tinnitus and who are coming to the newsgroup for advice and support I will offer a rebuttal. (By the way, though I disagree with you I admire you for your tenacity and position as a tinnitus advocate.) Common denominators do not imply causation. For example: a common denominator in bad sinus infections is toothache. Could one state that bad teeth cause sinus infections? No. What one can infer is that one of the symptoms of a bad sinus infection is a toothache. One cannot state that a toothache is the cause for a sinus infection. Instead one can state that when one has a sinus infection, a toothache may follow. Treat the sinus infection and the toothache may go away. Treating the toothache does nothing for the sinuses. Muscle tension may be a symptom of tinnitus but not necessarily the cause. Even on your site you state: -- The most widely accepted cause of Tinnitus is exposure to -- loud noise. But that still only accounts for about 25% of -- the tinnitus population -- So what else could there be? -- ALLERGIES - food, medication, additives -- INFECTIONS -- MUSCLE TENSION in neck and shoulders - posture, -- Car accidents causing whip lash -- TMJ, dental treatments -- Eustachian Tubes problems, -- PULSATILE TINNTUS - most of the time muscular So to state that >> Tinnitus is most likely a result of muscle tension. is misleading. A more accurate assessment would be that tinnitus can result in muscle tension and that alleviating muscle tension can help one relax on their way to coping with tinnitus. This does not to rule out that there may be a group for whom >>specific<< muscle tension may result in tinnitus. Better advice in this case would be that some who has tinnitus should try relaxation techniques to help cope with the tinnitus.  SignatureWilliam Porto http://www.privatesounds.net A blog about tinnitus and other things. Hi William, Thank you. You have actually read my website. >Even on your site you state: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >-- Eustachian Tubes problems, >-- PULSATILE TINNTUS - most of the time muscular I wrote that a long time ago. I now think the 25% is more likely to be less than 5% Allergies - true, but less than 1% Infections - maybe, but when the infection has cleared the tinnitus should pass. Eustachian tubes - I think I'll wipe that one. TMJ - most likely a muscle problem, although no dentist will agree with me. Whip lash, pulsatile, muscle tension - ALL MUSCULAR. >A more accurate assessment would be that tinnitus can >result in muscle tension no, no, no. It is the other way around. I wonder why the Swedish clinic has consistent results. Maybe you would like to ask him. http://www.yts.se/english/index.htm He will even send you the article he wrote. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in >> I have been reading this newsgroup for well over 10 years. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >Better advice in this case would be that some who has tinnitus should try >relaxation techniques to help cope with the tinnitus. Yes Elly, we have read your website, yet you continuously state in your posts that "tinnitus is most likely the result of muscle tension". This is not true in the vast majority of cases. William's response makes logical sense. Eric > Hi William, > Thank you. You have actually read my website. [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from > http://www.SecureIX.com *** >Yes Elly, we have read your website, yet you continuously state in your >posts that >"tinnitus is most likely the result of muscle tension". This is not true in >the vast >majority of cases. William's response makes logical sense. What makes you say that? How do you know this is not true in the majority of cases? Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ Elly, you make sweeping statements about tinnitus causation with no basis is in fact. Although a small percentage of people may have Somatosensory related tinnitus, the vast majority of people acquired tinnitus through exposure to loud noise. When a "newbie" or anyone else posts a message to this board, you immediately tell them that their tinnitus is due to muscle tension. NOT TRUE! NOT ACCURATE! Put some clarity or qualifiers in your statements. Eric >>Yes Elly, we have read your website, yet you continuously state in your >>posts that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from > http://www.SecureIX.com *** I ftinnitus is mostly due to loud noise then there would be ear damage. In that case there could be no improvement. And yet there are many people whose hearing improved when their tinnitus improved. Logic tells me that there was no hearing damage - only hearing loss. Hearing damage would irreversible. Hearing loss and hearing damage are not the same thing. To say that the the vast majority of people avquired tinnitus through loud noise exposure is also a sweeping statement which has no fact. It is a widely accepted THEORY. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ Logic tells me there must be another answer. >Elly, you make sweeping statements about tinnitus causation with >no basis is in fact. Although a small percentage of people may [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from >> http://www.SecureIX.com *** > I ftinnitus is mostly due to loud noise then there would be ear > damage. In that case there could be no improvement. So you don't believe in healing? Susan I believe in healing. But have you ever heard of someone being healed who had ear damage? (not hearing loss) Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Susan > I believe in healing. But have you ever heard of someone being healed > who had ear damage? (not hearing loss) My point was that your analogy wasn't apt. I have gotten rid of my T almost entirely; whether you want to consider that healing or remission brought on by antibiotics is another question. Sometimes T is caused by a reversible condition; there are many such candidate conditions. Susan Wrong again, Elly. Think "damaged hair cells". Go to any reputable source, ATA, BTA. A vast majority of tinnitus is caused by long term repeated exposure to loud noises. Sometimes a sudden explosion can trigger the tinnitus. You are flat wrong and your muscular theories are getting very tiresome and misleading to new suffers who come to this board for advice. Why do so many rock musicians, construction workers, military personnel, concert attendees, etc. suffer disproportionably from this affliction. Is it because they need a neck massage, I think not. It is because they have been exposed to excessive loud noise. From the ATA website. Read, absorb and understand this: a.. Noise-induced hearing loss - Exposure to loud noises can damage and even destroy hair cells, called cilia, in the inner ear. Once damaged, these hair cells cannot be renewed or replaced. Millions of Americans have hearing loss due to noise exposure, and up to 90 percent of all tinnitus patients have some level of noise-induced hearing loss. Sure there are other causes of tinnitus, but in the VAST majority of cases the above stated scenarios bring on the onset of this affliction. These facts are indisputable and why you remain in denial is beyond me. Eric >I ftinnitus is mostly due to loud noise then there would be ear > damage. In that case there could be no improvement. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from > http://www.SecureIX.com *** >Wrong again, Elly. Think "damaged hair cells". Go to any reputable source, >ATA, BTA. A vast majority of tinnitus is caused by long term repeated [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >because they need a neck massage, I think not. It is because they have >been exposed to excessive loud noise. But what do you mean by excessive loud nois? As I understand that term, I haven't been exposed to exessive loud noise, although I have been in the military and and attended rock concerts. I have taken steps to treat the tinnitus: (1) Raise the handle bars on my bike so I am riding with better posture; (2) take glucosamine tablets, and (3) do daily neck and back exercises to increase strength and improve posture. These steps are beginning to work, apparently. >From the ATA website. Read, absorb and understand this: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >due to noise exposure, and up to 90 percent of all tinnitus patients have >some level of noise-induced hearing loss. How is noise-induced hearing loss detected? I went to an ear doctor, and he looked in my ears and said there was no damage. We tested my hearing and he said I don't have the hearing pattern that indicates tinnitus. I don't have any hearing loss out of the ordinary for a man my age. So, this doctor decides whether you have tinnitus by (1) noting that you say you have it, (2) examining yours ears, and (3) giving you a hearing test. Is this ear hair damage visible to the doctor? Are there other tests he should have performed? >Sure there are other causes of tinnitus, but in the VAST majority of cases >the above stated >scenarios bring on the onset of this affliction. These facts are >indisputable and why you remain >in denial is beyond me. I've never seen any proof of this claim. I have only ever seen the claim. > But what do you mean by excessive loud noise? As I understand that > term, I haven't been exposed to exessive loud noise, although I have > been in the military and and attended rock concerts. The term excessive loud noise is self explanatory, usually 85 DB or more. Some people have a much greater tolerance to noise and never develop tinnitus. Alternatively, a single shotgun blast can give another person tinnitus. I have taken steps to treat the tinnitus: (1) Raise the handle bars on > my bike so I am riding with better posture; (2) take glucosamine > tablets, and (3) do daily neck and back exercises to increase strength > and improve posture. > > These steps are beginning to work, apparently. What do you mean by "apparently". It goes without saying that good posture and exercise is beneficial to everybody. > How is noise-induced hearing loss detected? I went to an ear doctor, > and he looked in my ears and said there was no damage. We tested my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Is this ear hair damage visible to the doctor? Are there other tests > he should have performed? I will defer to Jim Chinnis on this one. I do not think hair cells are visible during a rooutine ear exam. These cells are in the cochlea deep in the inner ear. Eric >>But what do you mean by excessive loud noise? As I understand that >>term, I haven't been exposed to exessive loud noise, although I have [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > tinnitus. > Alternatively, a single shotgun blast can give another person tinnitus. But how would you prove that? Any experiment to test the hypothesis would be unethical, because if the hypothesis is correct, it would mean the subject would have irreversible ear damage. So how would you prove that a single shotgun blast was the cause of a case of tinnitus? > I have taken steps to treat the tinnitus: (1) Raise the handle bars on > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > posture and > exercise is beneficial to everybody. I mean that my tinnitus is abating after application of the steps listed. So, apparently, they are working. ie, From appearance alone, the actions I am taking are eliminating the problem. I'm certainly not correcting irreversible damage to the hairs in my inner ear. >>How is noise-induced hearing loss detected? I went to an ear doctor, >>and he looked in my ears and said there was no damage. We tested my [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > during a rooutine ear exam. These cells are in the cochlea deep in the > inner ear. > But how would you prove that? Any experiment to test the hypothesis > would be unethical, because if the hypothesis is correct, it would mean > the subject would have irreversible ear damage. So how would you prove > that a single shotgun blast was the cause of a case of tinnitus? Data collection. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Data collection. Yes. What data? From personal experience, I know someone who's tinnitus started after target practicing with a 357 magnum. Eric > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Susan > From personal experience, I know someone who's tinnitus started > after target practicing with a 357 magnum. But that doesn't prove loud noise was a cause. It may have been a catalyst. It may have had no effect. "Eric J. Scharer" <scharer@directcon.net> wrote in part: >> But what do you mean by excessive loud noise? As I understand that >> term, I haven't been exposed to exessive loud noise, although I have [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > during a rooutine ear exam. These cells are in the cochlea deep in the >inner ear. At present, these can be imaged only during autopsy with a scanning electron microscope. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >"Eric J. Scharer" <scharer@directcon.net> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >At present, these can be imaged only during autopsy with a scanning electron >microscope. And how is the connection of these damaged hairs to tinnitus made? I assume it is simply by strong correlation, because I haven't seen an explication of the actual process that creates the symptoms of tinnitus. Martin Smith <beeties@bogfu.com> wrote in part: >>"Eric J. Scharer" <scharer@directcon.net> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >explication of the actual process that creates the symptoms of >tinnitus. There are hypotheses with reasonable support. One can track changes in activity at different levels of the auditory system that occur when outer hair cells are damaged. (There are no "hairs" involved, BTW.) SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > Martin Smith <beeties@bogfu.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > (There are no "hairs" involved, BTW.) Then Elly is right? When someone says we know tinnitus is caused by damaged hair cells in the inner ear, they are referring to a hypothesis. Martin Smith <sleepless@jetlag.com> wrote in part: >> Martin Smith <beeties@bogfu.com> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >Then Elly is right? When someone says we know tinnitus is caused by >damaged hair cells in the inner ear, they are referring to a hypothesis. I'd say Elly is all wet. But there is little that is certain about tinnitus. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG On 2/17/06 9:27 AM, in article en1cv1p8r65dghgodmibd0v04a6e4o8f3h@4ax.com, > I don't have any hearing loss out of the ordinary for a man >>> my age. So, this doctor decides whether you have tinnitus by (1) >>> noting that you say you have it, (2) examining yours ears, and (3) >>> giving you a hearing test. Tinnitus is subjective, like pain. There is no objective way to measure it, same as with pain. However today we understand that T can take place at several levels incuding the ear, nerves to the brain and the brain itself. Murray Grossan, M.D. Www.EarAid.info Murray Grossan <hydromed@adelphia.net> wrote in part: >On 2/17/06 9:27 AM, in article en1cv1p8r65dghgodmibd0v04a6e4o8f3h@4ax.com, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Murray Grossan, M.D. >Www.EarAid.info Just to clarify: I did not write the words above attributed to me. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > Murray Grossan <hydromed@adelphia.net> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Just to clarify: I did not write the words above attributed to me. But you are saying T can be measured objectively in animals that can't express a subjective opinion. Martin Smith <sleepless@jetlag.com> wrote in part: >> Murray Grossan <hydromed@adelphia.net> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >But you are saying T can be measured objectively in animals that can't >express a subjective opinion. Animals can report subjective experience. They have to be trained for most things. They can be trained to indicate when they hear a particular type of sound. That kind of animal research is expensive, but it's been done for the past 60 years or so. Check out some papers. Not sure what you mean by "objectively." People tend to mix up what they mean by "subjective" and "objective." Tinnitus is subjective. So is what you experience when you hear anything. Some subjective experience has an objective correlate and some doesn't. In either case, you know it when you experience it. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >Martin Smith <sleepless@jetlag.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >sound. That kind of animal research is expensive, but it's been done for the >past 60 years or so. Check out some papers. But tinnitus is subjective. You can train an animal to respond when it hears an objective sound, but you have to produce the sound. You can't produce the sound of tinnitus if you don't know what the animal "hears" when it "hears" tinnitus. >Not sure what you mean by "objectively." People tend to mix up what they >mean by "subjective" and "objective." Tinnitus is subjective. So is what you >experience when you hear anything. Some subjective experience has an >objective correlate and some doesn't. In either case, you know it when you >experience it. A measurement by a machine is objective. Martin Smith <beeties@bogfu.com> wrote in part: >>Martin Smith <sleepless@jetlag.com> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >can't produce the sound of tinnitus if you don't know what the animal >"hears" when it "hears" tinnitus. We know what kind of sounds certain agents cause in people, and we know the distinction between "quiet" and "noise." An animal knows when it is quiet and when it is noisy! Have you looked up any research? Here's a simplified example, just made up but similar to severtal studies I'm familiar with. Animals are placed in a cage with feeding devices on the left and right. There is an electric grid on the bottom of the cage. During training, when it is quiet, food is available on the right but not on the left. Optionally, the left side of the grid is also electrified a bit after the quiet begins.. When there is noise (from speakers), food is available on the left but not on the right. Optionally, the right side is also electrified following a bit after the noise begins.. Following training with many periods of quiet and noise, the animals go to the right side of the cage during quiet and to the left side during noise. Under the rules of extinction of conditioned responses, they will do this for quite a long time even if food is unavailable and no shocks are experienced. Now half the animals are given a tinnitus-inducing drug or exposure to tinnitus-producing sound. Often, high-dose aspirin is used. When the animals are placed in their (deactivated) cage in quiet, the untreated anaimals run to the right side and the treated animals run to the left side. If the speakers are turned on, the untreated animals run to the left side and join the treated animals. After a sufficient period of time passes to clear the aspirin, the treated animals shift their behavior so as to be indistinguishable from the untreated animals in their choice of where to go in the cage during quiet and during noise. All of our experience is subjective. The measurement of subjective experience is generally carried out via the methods of psychophysics. These permit quantification of things like relative loudness, brightness, saturation, pitch, etc. The same math is used in animal studies as in human animal studies. >>Not sure what you mean by "objectively." People tend to mix up what they >>mean by "subjective" and "objective." Tinnitus is subjective. So is what you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >A measurement by a machine is objective. A psychophysical measurement is objective in that multiple measurements by different people will be the same. Machines are just extensions of human senses. They still require human reading and interpretation. I think what you really want is reproducibility of measurements by different people. Any subjective phenomenon can be measured objectively in that sense with proper measurement methods. I know, because I've done it and taught the science of it in university courses. If what you are after is a something like a particular excitation pattern in the cortex, you have to realize that the only way to establish that that "objective" pattern is tinnitus...is to measure the subjective tinnitus and show that it is present when and only when the excitation pattern is present. None of our very detailed knowledge of the visual parts of the brain could have come about without the psychophysical measurement of the visual experiences of the animals used in the studies! SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > Martin Smith <beeties@bogfu.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > untreated animals in their choice of where to go in the cage during quiet > and during noise. Thanks for that explanation. Now that I see it, it should have been obvious. These tinnitus-inducing drugs they use, do they damage the cells in the inner ear, or do they affect some part of the brain? Does the tinnitus-producing sound damage the cells? > All of our experience is subjective. The measurement of subjective > experience is generally carried out via the methods of psychophysics. These [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > brain could have come about without the psychophysical measurement of the > visual experiences of the animals used in the studies! Maybe the experts are wrong. They have been before. I am aware of the ATA's position. It is nevertheless an unproved theory. There are far more people who have tinnitus who have never been exposed to loud noise. Ues sometimes an explosion can cause tinnitus. Yes rock musicians have tinnitus. But the vast majority of ordinary people have not been exposed to these situations. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >Wrong again, Elly. Think "damaged hair cells". Go to any reputable source, >ATA, BTA. A vast majority of tinnitus is caused by long term repeated [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from >> http://www.SecureIX.com *** > Maybe the experts are wrong. They have been before. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > exposed to loud noise. Ues sometimes an explosion can cause tinnitus. > Yes rock musicians have tinnitus. I don't know anyone who's never been exposed to noise at potentially damaging levels. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I don't know anyone who's never been exposed to noise at potentially > damaging levels. But how was the "potentially damaging" level determined? >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > But how was the "potentially damaging" level determined? Anything over 110 decibels, IIRC. School fire alarms, any wedding or bar mitzvah band, movies, concerts, sirens in the street, subway trains... Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Anything over 110 decibels, IIRC. School fire alarms, any wedding or > bar mitzvah band, movies, concerts, sirens in the street, subway trains... Yes. How was it determined that noise causes tinnitus? Martin Smith <sleepless@jetlag.com> wrote in part: >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Yes. How was it determined that noise causes tinnitus? Noise has been used to induce tinnitus in experimental animals. The changes in the auditory system following the noise exposure and tinnitus initiation have been partly mapped out. Tinnitus appears to appear when outer hair cells are destroyed. Drugs that destroy the same cells also cause tinnitus. In humans, noise exposures at carefully determined levels has been shown to cause temporary hearing loss and tinnitus. Higher levels or longer-lasting exposures are well-known to cause permanent tinnitus in a high proportion of people. Studies are not done, for obvious reasons. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >Martin Smith <sleepless@jetlag.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Noise has been used to induce tinnitus in experimental animals. But how is that done? How can an animal tell the observer it has tinnitus? If you mean that animals are forced to listen to loud noise and then they are killed and the hairs in their ears examined, that doesn't mean they had tinnitus unless you have already defined tinnitus to mean damage to hairs in the inner ear. > The changes >in the auditory system following the noise exposure and tinnitus initiation >have been partly mapped out. Tinnitus appears to appear when outer hair >cells are destroyed. Drugs that destroy the same cells also cause tinnitus. Are you saying the phantom humming that I "hear" can be detected and measured by a machine? >In humans, noise exposures at carefully determined levels has been shown to >cause temporary hearing loss and tinnitus. Higher levels or longer-lasting >exposures are well-known to cause permanent tinnitus in a high proportion of >people. Studies are not done, for obvious reasons. In my case, there is an actual low-level, reverberation/hum/electrical current-type noise in the background of the otherwise quiet buildings where I experience tinnitus. But I still don't see a proof that loud noise is THE cause of most cases of tinnitus. Martin Smith <beeties@bogfu.com> wrote in part: >>Martin Smith <sleepless@jetlag.com> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >doesn't mean they had tinnitus unless you have already defined >tinnitus to mean damage to hairs in the inner ear. To answer you would take too long. You need to read any one of the studies that trained animals to respond to noise vs quiet and then turned tinnitus on with noise or on and off with drugs and observed the animals. Many studies also looked at brain firing patterns and found that when the animals responded to noise when it wasn't there, they had the same abnormal auditory firing patterns as humans who reported tinnitus. >> The changes >>in the auditory system following the noise exposure and tinnitus initiation [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Are you saying the phantom humming that I "hear" can be detected and >measured by a machine? Not quite yet. I said "partly." >>In humans, noise exposures at carefully determined levels has been shown to >>cause temporary hearing loss and tinnitus. Higher levels or longer-lasting [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >where I experience tinnitus. But I still don't see a proof that loud >noise is THE cause of most cases of tinnitus. There is none. I suspect noise exposure is the most common cause. Humans in primitive societies tend not to lose hearing in old age or develop tinnitus. People in noisy occupations (farmers, pilots, gunners, roofers, rock musicians...) have more hearing loss and tinnitus than others do. My tinnitus is from Meniere's or some sort of endolymphatic hydrops. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >My tinnitus is from Meniere's or some sort of endolymphatic hydrops. But what if Meniere's is some kind of extension of Tinnitus. As is the endolymphatic hydrops? Oh boy. Now I have set the cat among the pigeons. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ Elly, It's called "cumulative" exposure to noise. I give up, you are just clueless. Eric > Maybe the experts are wrong. They have been before. > [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from > http://www.SecureIX.com *** > Elly, It's called "cumulative" exposure to noise. > I give up, you are just clueless. That took longer than usual. :-) Susan > Elly, It's called "cumulative" exposure to noise. > I give up, you are just clueless. You are giving up because you haven't actually explained any of the claims you've made. > Eric > [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] >>*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from >>http://www.SecureIX.com *** Hi Elly Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in > I wonder why the Swedish clinic has consistent results. Maybe you > would like to ask him. http://www.yts.se/english/index.htm > He will even send you the article he wrote. Its very simple why they have had consisten results - YTS only treats patients with "Somatosensory" tinnitus and they have developed methods to treat it: -------- "Somatosensory tinnitus is the dominating type of tinnitus among our patients. Somatosensory tinnitus is the kind of tinnitus that is caused by muscle tension, i.e. tense masticatory muscles and neck muscles send signals to the auditory brainstem and the patient experiences tinnitus… This is why we have developed a treatment for tinnitus related to muscle tension. " - http://www.yts.se/english/tinnitus.htm -------- This makes sense. Note that they never state that muscle tension is the main or only cause of tinnitus. Rather they have developed treatments for tinnitus whose origin is specific muscle tension. As I stated in my previous post: > There may be a group for whom >>specific<< > muscle tension may result in tinnitus. In this case the specifics are "tense masticatory muscles and neck muscles." YTS never states that all cases of tinnitus - or even most cases - are caused by muscle tension. Instead they state that >>some<< cases of tinnitus are caused by muscle tension and those are the ones they treat. YTS further states, "For all symptoms it's important to make the right diagnosis in order for the treatment to be successful. That's why we have to assess whether each individual's tinnitus is caused by muscle tension or not." Note the last two words in that paragraph: >>"or not."<< Next YTS states, "People who have tinnitus related to muscle tension usually tell us they experience facial pain and pain in their jaws and neck. They experience difficulties opening their mouths wide and their jaws often feel tired. Many have stiff necks." Kodos to them for being successful at treating somatosensory tinnitus! Had I somatosensory and local doctors failed in treating it, I would contact YTS. Therefore rather than stating: > Tinnitus is most likely a result of muscle tension. > Has anything happened recently that could have increased > tension in your body? Computers? Phones? New job?" what you should be asking is: "Are you experience facial pain and pain in you jaws and neck? Are you experiencing difficulties opening your mouth wide and do your jaws often feel tired?" If the responses are "Yes, I am experiencing some/all of those symptoms" then you could conclude that person's tinnitus may be of somatosensory origin, otherwise there may be other underlying causes. Based on all this, I ask you once again, how can you diagnose Mr. G's tinnitus so quickly? There are other causes beyond "muscle tension." William Porto http://www.privatesounds.net A blog about tinnitus and other things. Comments are always welcome. Somatosensory tinnitus is the 'dominating' type of tinnitus I am certainly glad you are actually reading all this stuff. What is your definition of the word Somatosensory? What is the cause of your tinnitus? What is the treatment for it? Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >Hi Elly > [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >http://www.privatesounds.net >A blog about tinnitus and other things. Comments are always welcome. >Its very simple why they have had consisten results - YTS only treats >patients with "Somatosensory" tinnitus and they have developed methods to >treat it: This comment has been sitting in my computer for a long time. Johan Hedbrant, Linköping University, Sweden, 2004-01-26 'Long term experience indicate that some ten out of about 2000 patients treated by the clinic do not fit into the tension-tinnitus patterns. They have considerable tinnitus despite low tension-levels.' Hedbrandt works closely with Assar Bjorne. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ Hi Elly >This comment has been sitting in my computer for a long time. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Hedbrandt works closely with Assar Bjorne. Long term experience is not a substitute for objective third party predictable and empirical evaluation. It may be for some, but then again if that’s the case you’ll never know any empirical truths. There are too many practitioners who without external empirical input rely solely on their long term experience and antidotal finding as the basis of their practice. His findings seem incredulous – 95.5 percent of patients have somatosensory tinnitus? Granted that many people love to place their faith in alternative methodologies but even then such percentages must raise doubt. Let’s look at this further: Assar Bjorne is a Dentist – I do not state this disparagingly but rather to point out the origin of assessment. He clearly states on his site that he has “assessed and treated patients >>who have received referrals<< for vertigo, tinnitus and pain in the face/jaws, and headaches and migraines“ [emphasis added] - That makes perfect sense. After all, the last person most of us would consider going to for a hearing issue is a dentist. Quite possibly after being evaluated by a knowledgeable ENT who’s aware of potential somatic origins of tinnitus, the ENT refers the patient to Dr. Bjorne (or is this another case where they just haven’t gotten around to updating the website?). In addition, there is no clinic – it is a one-man dental practice. For many “Clinic” implies a dedicated team of practitioners. Note that none of this is stated to disparage Dr. Bjorne in any way. I am merely pointing out that his conclusions may be justifiably biased. To state that 99.95% of tinnitus cases are cause by muscle tension does a disservice to the countless many whose tinnitus is of an alternative genesis. Muscular origins is but one of the many types of objective tinnitus. It leads them to seek treatment that may not deal with the underlying cause of their tinnitus – and that I have an issue with. People come to this board looking for support and advice and to unintentionally mislead them into thinking that their tinnitus is caused by “muscle tension” (no matter how good your motives are – and I know they are good) does not benefit them. You are a dedicated and articulate person who has found a methodology that has helped you deal with your tinnitus and I applaud you for spreading the word, but not at the price of ignoring alternative causes. Ask questions that may lead you to opine that a poster’s tinnitus is somatosensory first before you provide a diagnosis. > I am certainly glad you are actually reading all this stuff. > What is your definition of the word Somatosensory? Why wouldn’t one read something with a critical eye? So many people are willing to take things at face value and lack a basic understanding of subjective / objective evaluations or the value of empirical evidence. Additionally there’s an irrational backlash against conventional medicine solely based on the tenant that conventional medicine is not the end all of knowledge when naturally any doctor would agree. My definition of somatosensory is the same definition anyone would use. A quick lookup on the web reveals: --- “Of or relating to the perception of sensory stimuli from the skin and internal organs: the somatosensory area of the cerebral cortex.” - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=somatosensory --- Taken further, the wonderful Wikipedia states: --- Somatic sensation consists of the various sensory receptors that trigger the experiences labelled as touch or pressure, temperature (warm or cold), pain (including itch and tickle), and the sensations of muscle movement and joint position including posture, movement, and facial expression (collectively also called proprioception). - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatosensory_system --- > What is the cause of your tinnitus? > What is the treatment for it? My tinnitus is probably of physiological origin: It is acute during colds and goes into remission when I'm healthy – which, fortunately for me is the vast majority of time. It may in fact be somatosensory, though not related to being tense. I have nerve damage in the affected ear, but the damage was caused years ago when I first had a temporary bout of tinnitus after being exposed to extremely loud music for several hours. All indications seem to point to a temporary physiological cause. My desire is to learn more about tinnitus and to seek some means of preventing it from becoming a permanent issue. By the way, I invite you to read my site - which I gather you haven't since you're asking me about the origin of my tinnitus. SignatureWilliam Porto http://www.privatesounds.net A blog about tinnitus and other things. OK, give me some time to wade through this. >Long term experience is not a substitute for objective third party >predictable and empirical evaluation. How is that working in the world so far? Re Assar Bjorne > In addition, there is no clinic it is a one-man >dental practice. That might be how it started. It is a clinic now. There is more than one person. >To state that 99.95% of tinnitus cases are cause by muscle tension does a >disservice to the countless many whose tinnitus is of an alternative >genesis. But what if it is true? Not one person has ever done any research in this area. The ATA has never investigated it, at the very least someone should have done that. >People come to this board looking for support and advice and to >unintentionally mislead them into thinking that their tinnitus is caused by >muscle tension (no matter how good your motives are and I know they are >good) does not benefit them People come to this board looking for support, yes. But do they get it? There is no help here. Go back over old posts and see how much help is ever offered. Susan tries, but even less people have ever had tick born disease. >> What is your definition of the word Somatosensory? Thank you for that definition. Very complicated. Many people throw the word around without really understanding the meaning of it. People love big words to tack onto their condition. People would much prefer to have otitis media rather than a middle ear infection. >> What is the cause of your tinnitus? >> What is the treatment for it? > >My tinnitus is probably of physiological origin: I collected all your posts since you arrived in this newsgroup. Your symptoms strongly suggest another case of muscle tension tinnitus. The very fact that it comes and goes suggests that. It is very very possible to have muscle tension and not feel a thing. It happend to me again only last week. There are very few pain receptors in the neck. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ What do you do for a job? I did read you website. I am coming to that next. >Hi Elly > [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] >permanent issue. By the way, I invite you to read my site - which I gather >you haven't since you're asking me about the origin of my tinnitus. > People come to this board looking for support, yes. But do they get > it? There is no help here. Go back over old posts and see how much > help is ever offered. Susan tries, but even less people have ever had > tick born disease. Elly, what you know about tick borne diseases, their ubiquity, the inability of serology to detect them, and T wouldn't crowd the head of a pin. Susan I klnow very little about tick borne disease. You are the only person I have heard of who had it. But if over 50,000,000 people in North America alone have tinnitus, then 55,000,000 people have not had tick borne disease. There are millions of people in other countries where the disease does not exist, but tinnitus does. I have never disagreed with you on that subject. Elly. >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Susan Elly Byrne ---------- The Ultimate Supertip from Harvey Segal http://tinyurl.com/bg7h2 > I klnow very little about tick borne disease. You are the only person > I have heard of who had it. That's because everyone you know has only one problem; a pain in the neck. :-) But if over 50,000,000 people in North > America alone have tinnitus, then 55,000,000 people have not had tick > borne disease. ExCUSE me? How did you arrive at that conclusion? There are millions of people in other countries where > the disease does not exist, but tinnitus does. I never said all cases of tinnitus are TBDs. Susan >>Long term experience is not a substitute for objective third party >>predictable and empirical evaluation. > How is that working in the world so far? Why would you ask that? If you feel that coming up with an subjective explanation without evaluation by an unbiased third party is as valid as an objective explanation based on empirical knowledge that has been rigorously tested and is predictable of an outcome, then we might as well end this now. One may as well waive a dead chicken over one's head - that's as valid a subjective non-empirically based cure as any other. How has it worked in the world so far? Very well! Very well indeed! In the last three hundred years we have seen greater advances than have ever before dreamed of being possible - and before you start listing all the horrors that have been brought upon the world - those are noted. Evil intents will always follow any methodology. But by applying the simple principle of testing and evaluating the results over and over again we have, in the last 100 years alone, achieved things magical - we have walked on the moon and visited other planets, speak to each other over vast distances, travel by air, take photographs, watch events that aren't occurring right in front of us. We even have the ability to peer into our very living bodies without touching them via an MRI. Why in some cases we can even cure baldness! In fact the very computer you are using right now is a testament to this methodology. They are all the products of a path of ever expanding empirical knowledge. Is there any question at all that said methodology has proven to be successful time and time again? That it has filtered out sheer fancy and conjecture? That you and I and the vast majority of the world utilize its results every single day? Has the world not changed drastically because of it? I'm not following why you would ask this unless you wish to point out that not everything has been cured or concurred - and no one in their right mind would state such. >> In addition, there is no clinic – it is a one-man >> dental practice. > That might be how it started. It is a clinic now. There is more than > one person. http://www.yts.se/english/staff.htm Or Is this another case of a website that hasn't been "updated"? Look, I state these issues not to disparage Dr. Bjorne nor to debate the merit of his findings - based on what he has publicly made available on the internet his methodologies are quite worthy of consideration - BUT I question your interpretation of his findings. >>To state that 99.95% of tinnitus cases are cause by muscle tension does >>a disservice to the countless many whose tinnitus is of an alternative >>genesis. > But what if it is true? Not one person has ever done any research in > this area. The ATA has never investigated it, at the very least > someone should have done that. Agreed - what if it's true? That would be wonderful! Your logic, though, escapes me. Because a methodology may not have been investigated does not grant it exclusivity. It is not up to the ATA to investigate every claim made - that would be ridiculous. Dr. Bjorne and his colleague have been working on somatosensory tinnitus for years. If they have empirical proof that "muscle tension" is the >>sole<< cause for tinnitus they should by now have submitted papers for peer review and he would be hailed as a miracle worker - Dr. Salk move over! But does Dr. Bjorne’s published work state that 95.5% of all cases of tinnitus are cause by muscle tension? He has published several scientific papers (http://www.yts.se/english/research.htm) - Do they actually state that 95.5% of cases of tinnitus are caused by "muscle tension"? Or do they instead state that it >>may<< be a cause but not necessarily an exclusive one? The question therefore is not has the ATA investigated this claim, but rather what theory has been advanced those who have made such claim? I will repeat - I state these issues not to disparage Dr. Bjorne nor to debate the merit of his findings but to evaluate your interpretation of his findings. I will repeat: YTS never states that muscle tension is the main or only cause of tinnitus. They state that have developed treatments for tinnitus whose origin is specific muscle tension. YTS states "For all symptoms it's important to make the right diagnosis in order for the treatment to be successful. That's why we have to assess whether each individual's tinnitus is caused by muscle tension or not." OR NOT. They do not claim that 95.5% of all cases of tinnitus are caused by muscle tension. >>People come to this board looking for support and advice and to >>unintentionally mislead them into thinking that their tinnitus is caused [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > help is ever offered. Susan tries, but even less people have ever had > tick born disease. As I have stated I applaud you for your support . I have an issue, though, if that support misleads more than reveals. >>> What is your definition of the word Somatosensory? > Thank you for that definition. Very complicated. Many people throw the > word around without really understanding the meaning of it. People > love big words to tack onto their condition. People would much prefer > to have otitis media rather than a middle ear infection. I use the term somatosensory only because it is used by YTS. Was the point of the question to insure that I know how to look up a word? > I collected all your posts since you arrived in this newsgroup. Your > symptoms strongly suggest another case of muscle tension tinnitus. > The very fact that it comes and goes suggests that. > It is very very possible to have muscle tension and not feel a thing. > It happend to me again only last week. There are very few pain > receptors in the neck. Oh no doubt. It may indeed be because of muscle tension. What would make me question this diagnosis is that for over ten years I have not experienced tinnitus and I have (as all of us have) extremely tense periods in my life where tinnitus has not manifested itself. I even had TMJ more than 20 years ago without tinnitus. Therefore - at least for me - being tense does not illicit tinnitus - the correlation is obviously not a causation. What I have noted is that this year it has manifested itself after sinus infections. Sinus infection - tinnitus. Sinus infection again - tinitus again. In fact the sinus infection may be agrevating a physilogical flaw that is becoming more pronouced as I grow older. Therefore it isn't the sinus infection that is causing the tinnitus - rather it is the catalyst that has caused an underlying condition to manifest itself. Only time will tell. When I first experienced tinnitus it was right after being situated next to an extremely loud speaker at a concert. I had a fantastic time at the show and didn't think anything of it until afterwards when I noted a running in my ear that lasted for days. Rather than being tense, I was quite the relaxed fellow at the concert. The speaker, obviously shook me up. Or maybe I just had a stiff neck... > What do you do for a job? I am neither a scientist nor a doctor, if that's what you're driving at. > I did read you website. I am coming to that next. Well thought out comments are allways appreciated. SignatureWilliam Porto http://www.privatesounds.net A blog about tinnitus and other things. Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part: >I have been reading this newsgroup for well over 10 years. There maybe >different symptoms, but the common denominator is usually muscle >tension. Elly, muscle tension has been *your interpretation* for over ten years. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG Hi Jim, have you been on holidays? Nothing has happened in the past 10 years to make me change my mind. No major improvements in treatments - no major changes in research etc. I repeat: there may be different symptoms, but the common denominator is usually muscle tension. Have you ever proved for yourself? Did you ever read Assar's study? Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Elly, muscle tension has been *your interpretation* for over ten years. > Hi Jim, have you been on holidays? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I repeat: there may be different symptoms, but the common denominator > is usually muscle tension. We've had many, divergent types of onset/causes documented here; infectious diseases, thyroid abnormalities, hyperinsulinemia, noise damage, diving damage, drug damage, head injuries. Any one of these could cause one to tense up, as can tinnitus, quite frankly. Susan Hi Susan, Have you been on holidays too? Elly. >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Susan Elly Byrne ---------- The Ultimate Supertip from Harvey Segal http://tinyurl.com/bg7h2 > Hi Susan, Have you been on holidays too? > Elly. Nope, just otherwise engaged. Susan Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part: >Did you ever read Assar's study? Sure, years ago. But it applies to those with muscle tension problems. It seems to me that they preselected for people with TMJ disorders, neck problems, etc. They didn't do a study on a representative set of people with tinnitus. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG Problem with that is also the fact that I did not have TMJ or jaw problems. But the T was - and still is - muscle related. Elly. >Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >problems, etc. They didn't do a study on a representative set of people with >tinnitus. Elly Byrne ---------- The Ultimate Supertip from Harvey Segal http://tinyurl.com/bg7h2 >Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Elly, muscle tension has been *your interpretation* for over ten years. Muscle tension can be cause by medical problems, like degeneration of the surfaces of bones in the neck, causing nerve problems and muscle tension. The three people I have talked to about it, two doctors and a physiotherapist, all said it can be a cause of tinnitus. It seems to be true in my case. This topic was started by mr. g. Apart from my comments he has received no help whatsoever. Martin Smith wrote here. He recieved no help from you guys either. Thank you Martin. I am hearing you. Elly. >>Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >physiotherapist, all said it can be a cause of tinnitus. It seems to >be true in my case. Elly Byrne ---------- The Ultimate Supertip from Harvey Segal http://tinyurl.com/bg7h2 >>Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > physiotherapist, all said it can be a cause of tinnitus. It seems to > be true in my case. And it may well be. So naturally the treatment would be to eliminate the tension. I know botox is big in the medical world. Could it be utilized here? Would a localized application of a muscle relaxant work? SignatureWilliam Porto http://www.privatesounds.net A blog about tinnitus and other things. >>>Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >tension. I know botox is big in the medical world. Could it be utilized >here? Would a localized application of a muscle relaxant work? I think you missed the point. If muscle tension is a symptom, then relieving it won't fix the problem. I don't know anything about botox. Glucosamine is suggested because it is used in the process of building cartilage. It certainly seems to help in my case. On 2/16/06 8:04 PM, in article Xns976CEAACF7285tinnitus10027com@24.29.109.205, "William Porto" <tinnitus-remove@privatesounds.net> wrote: >>> Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > tension. I know botox is big in the medical world. Could it be utilized > here? Would a localized application of a muscle relaxant work? The reason there is so much confusion and now we know, for so much failure in Rx is that Tinnitus is NOT just the ear. I see a patient with hypertension, significant hearing loss, elevated book lipids, diabetes, etc etc and no tinnitus. Next one has normal hearing and tinnitus. Thanks to Brain Mapping we can now see parts of the brain light up and know that Tinnitus has Three components, ear, nerve pathways and brain. And of course patients vary all over the place. Every single one of the writers here has a different Tinnitus. A is more in the pathway B is more in the ear C is only in the brain And so on. And yes, what works for A may not work for B Murray Grossan, M.D Www.EarAid.info >On 2/16/06 8:04 PM, in article >Xns976CEAACF7285tinnitus10027com@24.29.109.205, "William Porto" [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >Murray Grossan, M.D >Www.EarAid.info Thanks, Doc, that's the best explanation I've heard yet. Actually, it's the only good one I've heard. >And it may well be. So naturally the treatment would be to eliminate the >tension. I know botox is big in the medical world. Could it be utilized >here? Would a localized application of a muscle relaxant work? But what about the cause of the tension? That does not address the cause. Elly. >>>Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >tension. I know botox is big in the medical world. Could it be utilized >here? Would a localized application of a muscle relaxant work? Elly Byrne ---------- The Ultimate Supertip from Harvey Segal http://tinyurl.com/bg7h2
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