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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / September 2005If I had to do it all over again...
After talking to several other t patients, I summarised our experiences as follows: *** T starts out of the blue in one ear. *** T spreads to both ears. *** T is transformed from a ear ring into ringing at the centre of the head. If I knew at that time what I have known now, I would do the following before consulting any doctors. (1)do away with a pillow or just lie flat on bed. You can use a chiro pillow for the support of the neck, of course. (2)take a tablet of gingko biloba each morning empty-stomached. If one is too much, cut it in half or not enough add another before dinner. Make sure it does not affect other medications you are taking. I would then wait for a while to see if this combination could work. FP > (2)take a tablet of gingko biloba each morning empty-stomached. If one > is too much, cut it in half or not enough add another before dinner. > Make sure it does not affect other medications you are taking. In order to tell if one is not enough, I can only presume you use the tinnitus sound as a guide. On this presumption, then, one would keep taking an additional dose until the ringing stopped. Is this correct? In order to tell if one is too much, one would probably observe bleeding from the nose or perhaps have a brain hemorrhage. Is this what you mean? This is a new scare tactic for Gingko. How many people do you know this happened to? <fyfpoon@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1126932543.483893.186150@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > (2)take a tablet of gingko biloba each morning empty-stomached. If one > is too much, cut it in half or not enough add another before dinner. > Make sure it does not affect other medications you are taking. In order to tell if one is not enough, I can only presume you use the tinnitus sound as a guide. On this presumption, then, one would keep taking an additional dose until the ringing stopped. Is this correct? In order to tell if one is too much, one would probably observe bleeding from the nose or perhaps have a brain hemorrhage. Is this what you mean? > This is a new scare tactic for Gingko. How many people do you know this > happened to? Only two. What do you take for help with your paranoid anxiety syndrome? > This is a new scare tactic for Gingko. How many people do you know this > happened to? Only two. Once you experience the ringing 'softened' or ringing 'movint out' of the centre of your head, stay with the existing doze. You 'may' improve it further by taking more but why not take the safer route of taking longer time with the given amount. Another property which the western doctors do NOT know of gingko is that gingko improves the blood circulation of the kidney. An improved kidney helps out the rest of the body. If one tablet or whatever amount is too much, you may observe your wounds or cuts harder to heal. I once went to talk to SEVERAL doctors in a large state hospital in China who have had experience of prescribing gingko to their patients. None of them has ever observed any brain hemorrhage in patients. They would, however, stop the gingko before a patient goes for operation. I don't know why you guys make gingko such a scary thing. Just take in accordance with the manufacturers' advice, or take half of what is recommended to begin with. The gingko pills made in North America are of excellent quality. On top of that, you guys have all sorts of legal weapons on your side as consumers. I would assume that the manufacturers are aware of the consequences of lawsuits against them when they make the recommendations. Talk to those doctors that have had the experience and thus the confidence of prescribing gingko, not those who are scared to death by anything outside their scope. I know several persons that used simple means to practically 'cure' her tinnitus when it _first started_. If they had to come to alt and ask endless questions before trying anything, they might have had their tinnitus mushroom to the point when they might have contemplated suicide. On 9/20/05 5:44 PM, in article 1127263443.196369.25660@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, "fyfpoon@gmail.com" > large state hospital in > China who have had experience of prescribing gingko to their patients. > None of them has ever observed any brain hemorrhage in patients. That is really good evidence. When I lectured in China, 1/2 of the doctors didn't even know if their T patients had hypertension! Many of the "cures" were based on the patient says he heard better, no hearing test was done. Where were you lecturing, in a city or a small town? Do you mean 1/2 of the doctors around where you lectured or a statistical computation of all the doctors in China divided by half? I was in HK a couple of years ago and the several doctors I visited failed to take care of my high blood pressure and these were expensive doctors such as the ones in HK Adventist Hospital. My problem was taken care of by an inexpensive doctor in a state hospital later on. I think one could only conclude how lucky one is in running into good doctors. Just look at that amount of mal-practice lawsuits in the US and you will be convinced. On 10/15/05 10:51 AM, in article s4ednTY8EtjMN7benZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@onvoy.com, >> (2)take a tablet of gingko biloba each morning empty-stomached. If one >> is too much, cut it in half or not enough add another before dinner. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > In order to tell if one is too much, one would probably observe bleeding > from the nose or perhaps have a brain hemorrhage. Is this what you mean? One of the reasons I don't recommend Gigko is that I practice in Los Angeles. People here take herbs, potions, Chinese, Oriental, Hindu, Yogic and other ""natural" stuff all the time. I am terrified that someone will take an "herb" that turns out to slow bleeding and clotting, plus the Gingko. Remember those diet pills? They were fine as long as you took the recommended doses, but gals were in a hurry to lose weight and many took 3x the recommended dose and stroked. When you deal with people .... We are not operating in a perfect world. Are we? I would imagine that before a person takes anything into his body, he or she would ask for an opinion from a doctor or someone who has used it. If one tablet is too much, use half. It is only common sense. You can't expect to save all the people all the time. Risk taking is in all aspects of life. > We are not operating in a perfect world. Are we? I would imagine that > before a person takes anything into his body, he or she would ask for > an opinion from a doctor or someone who has used it. If one tablet is > too much, use half. It is only common sense. You can't expect to save > all the people all the time. Risk taking is in all aspects of life. How can one know when one tablet of ginkgo is too much? Try it or ask any high-tech doctor if he or she has any sophisticated device to find out how much you need to take before it becomes risky. The same advice goes for aspirin too... and all othere medictions. You will be better off talking to *your* doc about that than asking for this kind of advice over the net. Thanks! - where can you get those chiro-pillows? - Which kind of stores? Also, which kind og Gingko Biloba works best? Are there big differnce? Andy > After talking to several other t patients, I summarised our experiences > as follows: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > FP Go and talk to a chiro and ask for an opinion but I think you could easily get a good opinion from the shop keeper. Visit a health food store and ask the shop keeper for the most popular one. I would recommend you to use one that is made of dried gingko leaves as opposed to extract. Take one to begin with. If it is too much, take half. But I think one is quite OK for most people. > Go and talk to a chiro and ask for an opinion but I think you could > easily get a good opinion from the shop keeper. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > leaves as opposed to extract. Take one to begin with. If it is too > much, take half. But I think one is quite OK for most people. Again, how do you know if it is too much? How do you know if you haven't taken enough? > Again, how do you know if it is too much? How do you know if you haven't > taken enough? Yes, I´d like to know that too.... Anders I have never heard of anybody taking too much. How do you know when you have taken too much analgesic? > Again, how do you know if it is too much? How do you know if you haven't > taken enough? Yes, I4d like to know that too.... Anders I think when a drug is made, it is made with certain kind of statistical computations. Read on the label on the use and then talk to your doc who has the experiences with prescribing this kind of med. I think when a drug is made, it is made with certain kind of statistical computations. Read on the label on the use and then talk to your doc who has the experiences with prescribing this kind of med. Francis, And it is exactly these kinds of "statistical computations" that are used to determine if a new drug is effective in treating a pathology, optimally occurring in placebo controlled studies. These are the studies that you have criticized as having minimal value in many other threads. HNG I criticize controlled study by pointing out that this kind of studies, like any other kind of studies, carries its limitations. The latter, I suppose, is quite a reasonable observation. FP >I think when a drug is made, it is made with certain kind of > statistical computations. Read on the label on the use and then talk > to your doc who has the experiences with prescribing this kind of med. Didn't you say we should take one pill and then increase or decrease the dosage as necessary? What are the minimum and maximum limits? How can we tell when we have achieved the proper dosage? My doctor can't hear my ringing. > >I think when a drug is made, it is made with certain kind of > > statistical computations. Read on the label on the use and then talk [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > tell when we have achieved the proper dosage? My doctor can't hear my > ringing. I said you should talk to a doctor that has the experience in prescribing gingko. I can't give you any better advice than the doc who is looking after you. That you may manage to get an answer over the internet that is satisfactory to you does not mean it is the right answer for you in a medical sense. >> >I think when a drug is made, it is made with certain kind of >> > statistical computations. Read on the label on the use and then talk [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the internet that is satisfactory to you does not mean it is the right > answer for you in a medical sense. No, what you said was this: "If I knew at that time what I have known now, I would do the following *before* consulting any doctors. (1)do away with a pillow or just lie flat on bed. You can use a chiro pillow for the support of the neck, of course. (2)take a tablet of gingko biloba each morning empty-stomached. *If one is too much, cut it in half or not enough add another before dinner. Make sure it does not affect other medications you are taking." * emphasis mine Then take just one. Many brands recommend people to take 2. NO what? The recommended doze of gingko sold OTC is presumed to be safe for the sample of most people. If you are concerned with the blood thinning aspect of it, you either don't take it or take a chance. This is also true of taking almost any kind of medication. Why do you need to over-sophisticate everything *your* way before you treat it as acceptable? I am willing to take whatever is recommended by the manufacturer while you may have to wait until blood comes out of your arse before you stop or cut it down. I have been taking one of a normal dozage each morning and I am satisfied with it. I might have achieved better results if I were to increase or decrease the current dozage but I don't feel the urge or need to do so. I don't need to find out the max or min dosage that I need to take. Medical science is not really as exact a science as math or physics is. But you seem to be treating it as if it is, and you don't want to approach it as a somewhat imprecise science until you have all the 'proper' answers. Then tell me, how fast should you be driving on the highway in order that you will *never* get an accident? The way you speak is reminiscient of one of those British arse holes in Hong Kong. And very possibly you are one! > NO what? <derogatory slop snipped> First you advised skipping the doctor and going straight to ginkgo, taking more or less as necessary. I asked you how you determine how much to take. Then you advised asking a doctor how much to take. In the first case, when you suggest taking more or less as necessary, I simply wanted to know how someone decides how much more or how much less. Just answer these questions, Francis: How did you know when to adjust the dosage up or down? Did you adjust it upwards until the ringing stopped? Did you adjust it downwards because your nose bled? Simple as that. No need to be such a condescending a.shole. Stop trolling here please. <fyfpoon@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1127214860.125823.279120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > NO what? <derogatory slop snipped> First you advised skipping the doctor and going straight to ginkgo, taking more or less as necessary. I asked you how you determine how much to take. Then you advised asking a doctor how much to take. In the first case, when you suggest taking more or less as necessary, I simply wanted to know how someone decides how much more or how much less. Just answer these questions, Francis: How did you know when to adjust the dosage up or down? Did you adjust it upwards until the ringing stopped? Did you adjust it downwards because your nose bled? Simple as that. No need to be such a condescending a.shole. > Stop trolling here please. I've been here a few years longer than you, a.shole. I don't really care if your have more than one brain cell. Stop trolling people. > Stop trolling here please. I've been here a few years longer than you, a.shole. >I don't really care if your have more than one brain cell. Stop trolling > people. Who the hell do you think you are? I asked a fair question, in fact I asked an important question. Kiss off you ignorant slug. You should know hwo I am because you have been here so long. Who were you last year, the year before or the year before that, troll boy? smn >I don't really care if your have more than one brain cell. Stop trolling > people. Who the hell do you think you are? I asked a fair question, in fact I asked an important question. Kiss off you ignorant slug. > Stop trolling here please. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > First you advised skipping the doctor and going straight to ginkgo, taking > more or less as necessary. I asked you how you determine how much to take. It is on the label of the bottle. Some recommend one a day while others two a day. I took one. > Then you advised asking a doctor how much to take. That is for *you* because you could not function without knowing all the specifics. That was why I asked you to talk to your doctor if the usual recommendation from the manufacturers does not help. > In the first case, when you suggest taking more or less as necessary, I > simply wanted to know how someone decides how much more or how much less. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > upwards until the ringing stopped? Did you adjust it downwards because your > nose bled? Once you feel the impact, then stay with it as long as you want. This is a good policy in view of the fact that you could use minimum amount of medication to take care of your ill. And this is what I do. I have no interest in stretching up the whole thing to the precise rim the way you have put the question to me. How did you adjust your driving speed? when someone hits you in your back bumper and you call that min and when you hit someone by the bumper in front of you and you call it max? Use a bit of common sense, talk to a doctor if necessary. Once you feel the impact from gingko, you could them proceed to further sophisticate the use of it. The latter part is for someone who works closely with you, not from someone over the net. FP > Simple as that. No need to be such a condescending a.shole. The concept of adjusting the dose according to the effect can't apply in Gingko any more than it can apply in Antibiotics. I don't believe that anyone can tke one or two or whatever and have his tinnitus stop as a means of finding the dose. And the danger is that too much can lead to bleeding; the second danger is that in US products the stuff isn't calibrated for this. Sounds just like aspirin The concept of adjusting the dose according to the effect can't apply in Gingko any more than it can apply in Antibiotics. I don't believe that anyone can tke one or two or whatever and have his tinnitus stop as a means of finding the dose. And the danger is that too much can lead to bleeding; the second danger is that in US products the stuff isn't calibrated for this. > The concept of adjusting the dose according to the effect can't apply in > Gingko any more than it can apply in Antibiotics. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > much can lead to bleeding; the second danger is that in US products the > stuff isn't calibrated for this. Murray, as it happens, once my dose of doxycycline was doubled to 400 mg per day, twice the normal dose, my tick borne symptoms improved dramatically, after first worsening due to endotoxins from the die off reaction. In fact, the roaring T that brought me here was caused by this effect, then dramatically improved as a result of the antibiotics. Dosage and tissue saturation and penetration *do* matter with antibiotics; that's also why intravenous is used for some infections. Susan On 9/21/05 5:21 AM, in article 3pd1irF9qq97U3@individual.net, "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Susan Susan, that's not the same thing. You can't possibly decide by the dose which is best for your infection. Yes, doubling the dose may improve the outcome but it may take days to do this. So, the next day you are no better and you still increase the dose??? No way, Jose. > On 9/21/05 5:21 AM, in article 3pd1irF9qq97U3@individual.net, "Susan" > <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Susan, that's not the same thing. You made the analogy, I responded to it. > You can't possibly decide by the dose > which is best for your infection. Yes, doubling the dose may improve the > outcome but it may take days to do this. So, the next day you are no better > and you still increase the dose??? No way, Jose. If anyone suggested doubling the dose *daily*, then I apologize for missing it. I responded to your comment about adjusting the dose relative to the *effect,* which is exactly what my doctor and I did. Susan Medical drugs and herbal preperations are differnet on that scale. Herbal remedies take longer to effect things also and are no where near as dangerous to play with. x-no-archive: yes Murray Grossan wrote: > On 9/21/05 5:21 AM, in article 3pd1irF9qq97U3@individual.net, "Susan" > <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Susan, that's not the same thing. You made the analogy, I responded to it. > You can't possibly decide by the dose > which is best for your infection. Yes, doubling the dose may improve the > outcome but it may take days to do this. So, the next day you are no better > and you still increase the dose??? No way, Jose. If anyone suggested doubling the dose *daily*, then I apologize for missing it. I responded to your comment about adjusting the dose relative to the *effect,* which is exactly what my doctor and I did. Susan > Medical drugs and herbal preperations are differnet on that scale. Herbal > remedies take longer to effect things also and are no where near as > dangerous to play with. That's just not true, not only in my experience using herbal remedies, but in a read of the scientific literature, including the German commission on herbal meds. Anything strong enough to treat you is strong enough to hurt you. Licorice extract, for example, is a very potent and potentially deadly herbal medicine. Echinacea, too, causes rapid and severe symptoms in many folks, me included. Herbal medicines are potent; for that reason they should be used by a knowledgable consumer with appropriate caution. Susan Agreed but they (herbal) typically take much longer because they are based on better health and not a forced reaction with toxic substances. Not always the case but generally. e.g Penicillin usually takes a few day to effect a turnaround, while vit C and Lysine may take a few weeks. I defy you to hurt yourself with these compounds. Now I guess those are not strickly herbal either...LOL x-no-archive: yes Larry Lix wrote: > Medical drugs and herbal preperations are differnet on that scale. Herbal > remedies take longer to effect things also and are no where near as > dangerous to play with. That's just not true, not only in my experience using herbal remedies, but in a read of the scientific literature, including the German commission on herbal meds. Anything strong enough to treat you is strong enough to hurt you. Licorice extract, for example, is a very potent and potentially deadly herbal medicine. Echinacea, too, causes rapid and severe symptoms in many folks, me included. Herbal medicines are potent; for that reason they should be used by a knowledgable consumer with appropriate caution. Susan > Agreed but they (herbal) typically take much longer because they are based > on better health and not a forced reaction with toxic substances. Not always > the case but generally. Not true for so many. Echinacea mobilizes intense immune response, wbcs. That's why so many react badly. Licorice causes dramatic changes in bp, hypokalemia, and has caused death in those eating small amounts of candy daily, even. Those are just two examples off the top of my head, from my own personal observations. They're traditional medicines, used for centuries to *cure* not as health tonics. > e.g Penicillin usually takes a few day to effect a turnaround, while vit C > and Lysine may take a few weeks. I defy you to hurt yourself with these > compounds. Now I guess those are not strickly herbal either...LOL Those aren't herbal, Larry. Susan Yes, I react to echinacea also. It makes me sick sooner rather than later. This is discussed with the blood Type O followers. I am pesonally a believer in this science. However it had no effect on my Type A wife, if not a worse effect. Bllod Type O people seem to really benefit from this science, although, as D'adamo admits, is not exact at this point. Not all factors are known yet. x-no-archive: yes Larry Lix wrote: > Agreed but they (herbal) typically take much longer because they are based > on better health and not a forced reaction with toxic substances. Not always > the case but generally. Not true for so many. Echinacea mobilizes intense immune response, wbcs. That's why so many react badly. Licorice causes dramatic changes in bp, hypokalemia, and has caused death in those eating small amounts of candy daily, even. Those are just two examples off the top of my head, from my own personal observations. They're traditional medicines, used for centuries to *cure* not as health tonics. > e.g Penicillin usually takes a few day to effect a turnaround, while vit C > and Lysine may take a few weeks. I defy you to hurt yourself with these > compounds. Now I guess those are not strickly herbal either...LOL Those aren't herbal, Larry. Susan > Yes, I react to echinacea also. It makes me sick sooner rather than later. > This is discussed with the blood Type O followers. I am pesonally a believer > in this science. Im A+ and I don't subscribe to the blood type theory at all. We're way more complex than that. However it had no effect on my Type A wife, if not a worse > effect. See above; I'm A+ and it had a severe effect on me. Bllod Type O people seem to really benefit from this science, > although, as D'adamo admits, is not exact at this point. Not all factors are > known yet. Right. Like, none. Susan I tend to belive there is something to the theory and testing results they obtain. It may be just reducing the grain intake that people do on these diets. I am also a believer that mankind has not really adapted too well to modern grain intake in 4000 years of evolution. Atkins and other LC diets seemed to touch on this with great results. x-no-archive: yes Larry Lix wrote: > Yes, I react to echinacea also. It makes me sick sooner rather than later. > This is discussed with the blood Type O followers. I am pesonally a believer > in this science. Im A+ and I don't subscribe to the blood type theory at all. We're way more complex than that. However it had no effect on my Type A wife, if not a worse > effect. See above; I'm A+ and it had a severe effect on me. Bllod Type O people seem to really benefit from this science, > although, as D'adamo admits, is not exact at this point. Not all factors are > known yet. Right. Like, none. Susan Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: >Herbal medicines are potent; for that reason they should be used by a >knowledgable consumer with appropriate caution. The world's largest selling herb is tobacco.  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG I think it is tea... > After talking to several other t patients, I summarised our experiences > as follows: > > *** T starts out of the blue in one ear. > *** T is transformed from a ear ring into ringing at the centre of the > head. Your sampling group is not sufficient. An exhaustive study at the U. of Oregon Hearing Center shows that a significant number of T cases start subtly and not "out of the blue", unless you mean by the latter - "without known cause". However, too often tinnitus does not appear spontaneously. Also, perhaps 1/2 of T sufferers hear their T in the ears [unilaterally or bilaterally] and not the center of their head. And it remains that way. Paul I am talking about this from the point of view of a layman. Thus I don;t wish to oversophisticate the treatment. But with the experiences I have had with doctors and very very high-tech doctors, i think the above simple recipee would help and then from there they could use their own common sense to help themselves. Talking itself will not do them any good at all.
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