Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / September 2005
Chiropratic visit
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monk - 29 Aug 2005 16:58 GMT Visited a chiropractor for the first time to see if they could help with pain in my left arm. I have had this injury for 4 years and it was only last week I decided to make it better with alternative health care.
The Chiropractor looked at my stance and showed up how my body was angled down from my left shoulder to my right shoulder, quite badly, like the Eiffel tower!. Also my right leg is way shorter than my left. Interestingly he found that my neck bone on my left side is not in the correct position? I told him that I suffer from tinnitus & tension in my forehead. Could the neck bone be related to my tinnitus? He also had some new scanner gadget called SEMG (electromyography) that took a Computer image of my spine! He made a point of mentioning my neck bone 4 times and that that the SEMG can see the problem too.
Going back to tomorrow for full report. I will keep you posted
Ingenuous - 29 Aug 2005 17:19 GMT > Visited a chiropractor for the first time to see if they could help > with pain in my left arm. I have had this injury for 4 years and it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Going back to tomorrow for full report. I will keep you posted Sounds pretty typical to me except I think he meant to tower of Pisa. Tomorrow he will adjust all this and put you on an adjustment schedule to optimize cash flow.
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 30 Aug 2005 05:30 GMT Ingenuous =86=E9=93=BC
> > Visited a chiropractor for the first time to see if they could help > > with pain in my left arm. I have had this injury for 4 years and it [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Tomorrow he will adjust all this and put you on an adjustment schedule to > optimize cash flow. Please make sure you have some personal experiences or reasonings that enable to make comments like that. Yes, there is a bit of over=sophistication in the chiro's prescription but only the patient can tell if it is useful or not.
Ingenuous - 30 Aug 2005 05:37 GMT Please make sure you have some personal experiences or reasonings that enable to make comments like that. Yes, there is a bit of over=sophistication in the chiro's prescription but only the patient can tell if it is useful or not.
What makes you think I'm not a chiropractor?
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 30 Aug 2005 06:16 GMT If you had been, you would not have thought that an acupuncturist use his needles to piece through the skulls of his patients in order to get to the 8th nerve. Your description sounds too Hollywood.
Ingenuous - 30 Aug 2005 06:22 GMT > If you had been, you would not have thought that an acupuncturist use > his needles to piece through the skulls of his patients in order to get > to the 8th nerve. Your description sounds too Hollywood. Do you want me to find your post in that regard? You were the one suggesting an acupuncturist would treat the auditory nerve. I merely pointed out that one must drive a needle through the skull to do so.
artfulasian@yahoo.com - 30 Aug 2005 19:16 GMT The acupuncturist does not have to contact the acoustic nerve directly to apply the treatment.
Having said that, I had acupuncture for tinnitus. The acupuncturist said tinnitus was one of the most difficult things to treat.
The treatments had no effect.
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 09 Sep 2005 01:24 GMT artfulasian@yahoo.com =86=E9=93=BC
> The acupuncturist does not have to contact the acoustic nerve directly > to apply the treatment. I thank you for having replied to that Hollywood dumbed down victim who suggests that an acupuncturist is like a Fumanchu in the Hollywood movies. This Fumanchu hides in the dark ally in Chinatown and pops out at any time to snatch a white woman into the ally and starts piecing her skull with long needles in order to find the acoustic nerve....
> Having said that, I had acupuncture for tinnitus. The acupuncturist > said tinnitus was one of the most difficult things to treat. > > The treatments had no effect. It was acupuncture that saved my miserable life. But then again, what applies to one may not work for another. Try this one I have used: her name is Dr. Zhang and the mobile phone number is 604-4390865 in Vancouver of Canada. Don't forget that medical practice is an art in many ways and as a result differs slightly from doctor to doctor.
I have had treatment from 2 acupuncturists. They approached my problem slightly differently. Try it ONCE!
FP
Larry Lix - 10 Sep 2005 02:20 GMT I have had accupuncture hundred of times. Most on a routine basis for general health. It was probably a waste of money.
However, I have accupuncture for tendonitus a few times and it was a miracle! Shoulder tendonitus that bothered me for thirty years or more was gone in one visit. I have had the other shoulder done and never had a problem with either for 15 some years now.
For bursitus I didn't find it that effective. It helped, definitely but not as miraculous.
Try it! I pay $30 for a half hour appointment. I do not go to the registered American blooded registered professionals. I go to the little oriental guy that learned in China and cannot get licenced from our medical Nazi association.
artfulasian@yahoo.com ??:
> The acupuncturist does not have to contact the acoustic nerve directly > to apply the treatment. I thank you for having replied to that Hollywood dumbed down victim who suggests that an acupuncturist is like a Fumanchu in the Hollywood movies. This Fumanchu hides in the dark ally in Chinatown and pops out at any time to snatch a white woman into the ally and starts piecing her skull with long needles in order to find the acoustic nerve....
> Having said that, I had acupuncture for tinnitus. The acupuncturist > said tinnitus was one of the most difficult things to treat. > > The treatments had no effect. It was acupuncture that saved my miserable life. But then again, what applies to one may not work for another. Try this one I have used: her name is Dr. Zhang and the mobile phone number is 604-4390865 in Vancouver of Canada. Don't forget that medical practice is an art in many ways and as a result differs slightly from doctor to doctor.
I have had treatment from 2 acupuncturists. They approached my problem slightly differently. Try it ONCE!
FP
Murray Grossan - 12 Sep 2005 03:27 GMT On 9/9/05 6:20 PM, in article 1126315340.73812bdf6b59707ca1b22bcf4120a178@teranews, "Larry Lix" <LarryLix@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I go to the little oriental guy > that learned in China and cannot get licenced from our medical Nazi > association. The acupuncturists are the one's who control who gets licensed in each state. MD's have no say in this matter, neither does the AMA.
Susan - 12 Sep 2005 03:35 GMT > On 9/9/05 6:20 PM, in article > 1126315340.73812bdf6b59707ca1b22bcf4120a178@teranews, "Larry Lix" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The acupuncturists are the one's who control who gets licensed in each > state. MD's have no say in this matter, neither does the AMA. My Chinese educated acupuncturist was licensed by NYS. She had a Chinese M.D., but only licensed to practice acupuncture in this country, probably due to language problems with the exams for M.D.s
Susan
Larry Lix - 12 Sep 2005 04:15 GMT Senility Murray?
> On 9/9/05 6:20 PM, in article > 1126315340.73812bdf6b59707ca1b22bcf4120a178@teranews, "Larry Lix" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The acupuncturists are the one's who control who gets licensed in each > state. MD's have no say in this matter, neither does the AMA. drfrank21@gmail.com - 12 Sep 2005 15:08 GMT > Senility Murray? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > The acupuncturists are the one's who control who gets licensed in each > > state. MD's have no say in this matter, neither does the AMA. I think that you're clueless on this one Larry. Forty out of fifty states (in the U.S.) have licensing regulations for accupuncturists and are OUT of the realm of the AMA. We're not talking licensure for an M.D. degree. I took a random state (Cal): see below (most other states are pretty similar)
""Acupuncture in California:""
""******Title of Practitioner: Licensed Acupuncturist (L.Ac.)***********
Education and Examination Requirements:
An applicant must graduate from an approved school and complete four academic years of education with a minimum of 1548 hours of theory including Western science, clinical medicine, TCM theory, diagnosis, Chi Kung, needling techniques, moxibustion, and acupressure, Herbology, practice management and ethics, and 800 hours of clinical training.
California administers its own exam which includes Herbology.
Practice of Acupuncture by other Health Care Providers:
Medical doctors and osteopaths may practice acupuncture in California without any specific training.
Acupuncture is not within the scope of practice of chiropractors.""""
It's interesting that in some states, chiro's can be licensed for accupuncture after some training, it is not allowed for California.
Larry, it seems you have some personal issues with the medical field. So be it, but try to be less ignorant and don't let your bias blind you.
frank
John Goddard - 03 Sep 2005 21:37 GMT If you do a search in Medline for "tinnitus and chiropractor" you will find that some tinnitus sufferers have been killed by chiropractic manipulation of the head and neck . Twisting the head and neck can set off a stroke in some susceptible people. Keep away!
John
>> Visited a chiropractor for the first time to see if they could help >> with pain in my left arm. I have had this injury for 4 years and it [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Tomorrow he will adjust all this and put you on an adjustment schedule to > optimize cash flow. Larry Lix - 04 Sep 2005 00:20 GMT Take you old wives tale fear mongering and tell somebody else. This is admittedly happenning in 3 out of each billion adjustments.
You have a greater chance of getting hit by lightning twice this week than that.
> If you do a search in Medline for "tinnitus and chiropractor" you will find > that some tinnitus sufferers have been killed by chiropractic manipulation [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Tomorrow he will adjust all this and put you on an adjustment schedule to > > optimize cash flow. Ingenuous - 04 Sep 2005 06:29 GMT > Take you old wives tale fear mongering and tell somebody else. This is > admittedly happenning in 3 out of each billion adjustments. There have been a billion chiropractic adjustments?
Elly Byrne - 04 Sep 2005 21:07 GMT There have been many many chiropractic adjustments.
It has just taken me 14 years to realise that the neck adjustment was most likely the best thing the chiropractor did for me on my first visit to him. I asked him not to do it again on subsequent visits and there was no further improvement.
Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/
>> Take you old wives tale fear mongering and tell somebody else. This is >> admittedly happenning in 3 out of each billion adjustments. >> >There have been a billion chiropractic adjustments? John Goddard - 04 Sep 2005 23:13 GMT I'm merely reporting what's in the literature, as extracted by Medline. Perhaps you should address your comments to them. J
> Take you old wives tale fear mongering and tell somebody else. This is > admittedly happenning in 3 out of each billion adjustments. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > to >> > optimize cash flow. drfrank21@gmail.com - 12 Sep 2005 21:20 GMT > Take you old wives tale fear mongering and tell somebody else. This is > admittedly happenning in 3 out of each billion adjustments. > > You have a greater chance of getting hit by lightning twice this week than > that. > . It's not that cut and dried. I personally have gone to chiro's for treatment and feel their treatment is safe but there can be complications. There's always a problem with under-reporting to/by the chiro and regulatory agency. See below for some objective research conclusions (btw, did you just guess at 3 out of 1 billion or do you have a study that you got this from?):
****Here's what some recently published literature has to say about the injury rates of chiropractic:
"The most valid studies suggest that about half of all patients will experience adverse events after chiropractic SM [spinal manipulation]. These events are usually mild and transient. No reliable data exist about the incidence of serious adverse events. These data indicate that mild and transient adverse events seem to be frequent. Serious adverse events are probably rare but their incidence can only be estimated at present. Further prospective investigations are needed to define their incidence more closely." (Ernst, 2001b)
Cervical spinal manipulation is generally considered to be more dangerous than other forms of spinal manipulation, and actual rates of injury from cervical spinal manipulations are currently unknown. While many chiropractors state that these manipulations are safe, there are suspicions that the injury rates are higher than currently believed. For instance, a group of neurosurgeons in Tulsa OK wrote a paper on a number of patients who had suffered neurological problems after cervical spinal manipulation (Malone et al., 2002); at the end of their paper they estimate the rate of injuries based on the population of their geographical area, the number of cases they've seen, and the approximate prevalence of chiropractic care:
"Based on these data, with our local 20 patients who experienced CSMT [cervical spinal manipulation therapy] related complication during the study period, and assuming that 17,000 patients had undergone cervical manipulation during the study period, then the complication rate was approximately one irreversible complication per every 850 patients undergoing a series of manipulations in the local region of the study. If the mean number of manipulations per patient is assumed to be 10, then the risk of complication in this study would be one in every 8500 cervical manipulations. Using other published data to estimate the number of cervical manipulations in this regional population, there could be up to 180,000 procedures annually, yielding a complication rate of one irreversible per 45,600 cervical manipulations. This does not take into account that our group represents only one third of the neurosurgeons in the geographical region around Tulsa." (emphasis mine, Malone et al., 2002)
Ernst, the author of the first paper on injury reports I quoted above, provides more details on evaluations of chiropractic injury rates in a comment published in Stroke (Ernst, 2001a):
"The best way to arrive at such information [figures on the incidence of major problems] is to prospectively study large samples of consecutive patients. Five such investigations have been published, and none reports a single case of a serious complication. This apparently confirms the assumption that complications are extreme rarities. Vis a vis the many thousand manipulations carried out daily, 200 or 300 complications in 5 years could be almost negligible. While we all hope that this is true, one must consider underreporting: if a patient suffers a serious complication after spinal manipulation, her chiropractor is unlikely to see her again, and the physicians who do might not think of a link between manipulation and the adverse effect. And even if they consider an association, are they likely to publish this as a case report? Moreover, none of the prospective studies available to date have enough power to detect events that occur less frequently than 1 in approximately 500 patients. Interestingly, most of these studies agree that mild, transient adverse effects (eg, local discomfort) are experienced by roughly every second patient who receives spinal manipulation.
"Where does this leave us when trying to critically evaluate the safety of spinal manipulation? We know that serious complications do exist. We also know of plausible explanations of how spinal manipulation might lead to serious adverse events; eg, sudden rotational and hyperextensive head movements can cause a traumatic dissection of the extracranial arteries. The incidence of life-threatening complications, however, is unknown, and previous estimates have all been based on assumptions which may or may not be true." (emphasis mine, Ernst, 2001a).
frank
Larry Lix - 19 Sep 2005 03:28 GMT This is interesting but it reads like this
"I have no way of knowing but 50% of the people suffer from adjustments"
This just sounds like an anti-chiro person trying to unsuccessfully something again spinal manipulation.
I typically do not find most studies that usefull as they usually appear very tainted and the data against their desires is all discarded. What does speak loudly to me is the statements of many, many people and myself reporting very good results with a substance, technique or therapy. The analysis of it's workings are interesting but medical science is only in the infantile stages. When the medical people realize this, and get off their pedestals we will all be much better off.
An open mind is a necessary key.
Thanx for the info.
> > Take you old wives tale fear mongering and tell somebody else. This is > > admittedly happenning in 3 out of each billion adjustments. [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > > frank Murray Grossan - 29 Aug 2005 17:25 GMT On 8/29/05 8:58 AM, in article 1125331130.897434.104170@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "monk" <onepunchtony@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Visited a chiropractor for the first time to see if they could help > with pain in my left arm. I have had this injury for 4 years and it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Going back to tomorrow for full report. I will keep you posted You do not have one leg shorter than the other.
monk - 29 Aug 2005 18:06 GMT I never noticed I had shorter right leg but when I look in the mirror I am taller on my left side than my right side. Maybe some are born like this and this is normal. If they sort out my arm injury then great but I didnt go there to fix my T .
I have no experience with chiropractors and their cash flows but it does make a lot more sense than acupuncture. But I guess I will soon find out if its a scam.
Has anyone else been to a chiropractic health clinic and had their spine nervous system scanned with this new gadget? Did it help anyone with any problems?
Murray Grossan - 30 Aug 2005 00:05 GMT On 8/29/05 10:06 AM, in article 1125335213.898021.167020@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "monk" <onepunchtony@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I never noticed I had shorter right leg but when I look in the mirror I > am taller on my left side than my right side. Maybe some are born like [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > spine nervous system scanned with this new gadget? Did it help anyone > with any problems? You do not have one leg shorter than the other. You may have a tilt or a posture problem but not a shorter leg.
Larry Lix - 30 Aug 2005 00:26 GMT Now you are a posture and bone specialist too Murray?
Go back in your dark practice and don't come back.
> On 8/29/05 10:06 AM, in article > 1125335213.898021.167020@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "monk" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > You do not have one leg shorter than the other. You may have a tilt or a > posture problem but not a shorter leg. fyfpoon@gmail.com - 30 Aug 2005 06:14 GMT It is not nice of you to have criticized Murray like that. He does not need to be a specialist as such but a doctor does have access to the knowledge or knowledge about another field.
Larry Lix - 31 Aug 2005 00:51 GMT When you make a stupid statement by a medical diagnosis over the Internet or through complete ignorance, with such fortitude, respect is lost from most people.
Murray has a lot going for him and usually shows an open mind. When he makes statements like that he need to apologize for his stupidity and he knows it.
No apologee for that one.
> Now you are a posture and bone specialist too Murray? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > You do not have one leg shorter than the other. You may have a tilt or a > > posture problem but not a shorter leg. fyfpoon@gmail.com - 09 Sep 2005 01:26 GMT Larry,
Are you working in the medical field?
FP
bungalow_steve@yahoo.com - 30 Aug 2005 21:04 GMT many people with a knee injury have worn cartilage (meniscus) that makes one leg shorter then the other.
Ingenuous - 30 Aug 2005 22:34 GMT > many people with a knee injury have worn cartilage (meniscus) that > makes one leg shorter then the other. Did he have a knee injury? Does the chiropractor fix this by adding cartilage or with artificial knee replacement?
Larry Lix - 31 Aug 2005 00:52 GMT It takes many, many treatments and years of time to fix a crooked hip developing into a leg length irregularity.
> > many people with a knee injury have worn cartilage (meniscus) that > > makes one leg shorter then the other. > > > Did he have a knee injury? Does the chiropractor fix this by adding > cartilage or with artificial knee replacement? monk - 01 Sep 2005 16:45 GMT The EMG scan report shows that I have a few problems with my neck, C1,C2,C3 and T1.
The treatment that im getting is mainly for my neck. Strange experience getting your necked pulled and hearling the clicking sound. My old injury that i had 4 years go has come back since my treatment. The chiro saies that this is quite normal and is called retrace. If it solves my arm injury then great but my tinnitus started back then - maybe there is a connection. Time will tell
Bart V - 29 Aug 2005 19:12 GMT > You do not have one leg shorter than the other. how can you say that without investigating the Bora Bora levels-bad doctor ;)
Murray Grossan - 30 Aug 2005 00:07 GMT On 8/29/05 11:12 AM, in article 1125339177.206752.215900@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Bart V" <banjo@haruteq.com> wrote:
>> You do not have one leg shorter than the other. > how can you say that without investigating the Bora Bora levels-bad > doctor ;) Because ortherpedists continually laugh at this diagnosis. Yes, if you break a bone or have a severe osteomyelitis that is a possibility, but without that history, no.
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 30 Aug 2005 01:40 GMT > On 8/29/05 8:58 AM, in article > 1125331130.897434.104170@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "monk" [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > You do not have one leg shorter than the other. i once thought i had but it turned out that my bed was too short and my body subconsciously shrank at night.
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Ingenuous - 30 Aug 2005 02:14 GMT > i once thought i had but it turned out that my bed was too short and my > body subconsciously shrank at night. I believe you.
Skycloud - 29 Aug 2005 17:57 GMT > Visited a chiropractor for the first time to see if they could help > with pain in my left arm. I have had this injury for 4 years and it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Going back to tomorrow for full report. I will keep you posted I had a full course of chiropractic at a local clinic to treat my back that would periodically go into painful spasm, causing scoliosis (a twisted and bent spine). I never seemed to be able to get a reason why this was happening but I assumed it was something to do with a damaged disc.
The first treatment made me feel ill for a day, as they said it would. However at the end of the course of treatment there was a temporary improvement, but it then reverted. Today my back is as unstable as ever. What a waste of money.
More seriously, as the problem in the lower back was treated, the stress travelled up my spine until my neck became exceedingly stiff and tense. The only way to deal with this was intensive massage by their masseuse, and this (I believe) is _what caused my tinnitus_, for reasons I've touched on in recent posts.
I'd never go to a chiropractor again. Be very, very careful.
Steve
Elly Byrne - 29 Aug 2005 21:10 GMT >Could the neck bone be related to my tinnitus? Yes it could.
Murray said:
>You do not have one leg shorter than the other. No, but his hips might be not level.
I have been to several chiropractors. The one I am seeing today actually gives me exercises to do. Unless you do something yourself to keep your back strong, then you will be going to a chiro for the rest of your life.
Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/
>Visited a chiropractor for the first time to see if they could help >with pain in my left arm. I have had this injury for 4 years and it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Going back to tomorrow for full report. I will keep you posted Larry Lix - 30 Aug 2005 00:28 GMT ditto.
I take years of straightening you spinal column to make corrections. It also takes years of growing crooked to get you spinal column to that problem position in the first place.
> >Could the neck bone be related to my tinnitus? > Yes it could. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > > >Going back to tomorrow for full report. I will keep you posted
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