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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / August 20052nd day
I have repeated my "exercise" again this morning. I was a bit later and still tried lying on my left side, and although it probably took 20 minutes for the T to vanish - vanish it did again! I was lying in bed at around 9.50 a.m. feeling in desperate need of my brekkie LOL so I think I will get up with the noise tomorrow and have brekkie first, then lie down for my 40 minutes. I hope Christian is still alive and reading this because I thought I had tried *everything* - but I hadn't, had I? There is nearly always something we haven't yet tried if we could only think what it is. Ben <enjoying another peaceful morning> >I have repeated my "exercise" again this morning. I was a bit later and >still tried lying on my left side, and although it probably took 20 minutes [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Ben <enjoying another peaceful morning> Good for you Ben. I wonder what drfrank and chinnis make of this. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ > >Ben <enjoying another peaceful morning> > > Good for you Ben. > I wonder what drfrank and chinnis make of this. Thank you Elly! I asked for advice on here prior to attending the Tiinitus Clinic because I am 99% sure that I will not be listened to by any ENT/Audiology persons regarding my "problem" and thoughts as to why my T might go quiet, or noisy. Obviously, they, and drfrank and Jim don't like anything that doesn't fit the "normal" pattern of things. I do wish doctors, and the medical profession in general, would be a little more open-minded. I had to *insist* on not taking a dose of 45mg of Carbimazole for hyperthyroid last year, and finished up on 10 mg a day for a few weeks, and I was heading for an underactive thryoid on that tiny amount! Lord knows how I ill I would have become on 45mg? !! At least the consultant said when I last visited that I was right after all for refusing the high dose. Why won't they accept that sometimes the patient knows themselves, and their own bodies, best? Ben <still enjoying the peace and quiet, and looking forward to experimenting again tomorrow> > Thank you Elly! I asked for advice on here prior to attending the Tiinitus > Clinic because I am 99% sure that I will not be listened to by any [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > doctors, and the medical profession in general, would be a little more > open-minded. Ben, if you're 99% sure you wont be listened to, why waste your time/ money and the doctor's time by even going) ? Just cancel and save yourself the aggravation (I'm serious). Just continue the exercises! If I had a patient that came in convinced that I couldn't or wouldn't listen to his problem(s) I'd recommend at the onset that they may be more comfortable seening another provider. I've had patients openly hostile to me when I don't automatically rubber stamp or approve of an alternative medicine treatment (such as some so-called herbal remedies for macular degeneration- a progressive devatasting condition in the retina, usually seen in the elderly). It's not that I'm not open minded more so that I have well grounded knowledge that macular retinal cells can not be replaced/repaired when they are already destroyed. Stem cells are another matter. No matter what the patient is being sold on, advanced or end stage mac degeneration can not be reversed. And I take no pleasure when these same patients come back 6 months later after spending hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on these miraculous "supplements" and they went from 20/400 vision to counting fingers (which is really bad). So for you Ben, I am very happy that you have found treatment that works for you. But tinnitus is very hard to diagnose and usually, harder to treat effectively. But that doesn't mean that most docs are not open-minded. frank > Ben, if you're 99% sure you wont be listened to, why waste your time/ > money and the doctor's time by even going) ? Just cancel and save [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'd recommend at the onset that they may be more comfortable seening > another provider. If my experiment continues to work through the rest of August Frank, then yes, I will cancel the appointment, Although I am generally full of praise for our NHS, and they are extremely short-staffed in audiology, I have had to wait from January the16th to getting the Tinnitus Clinic appointment for September the 1st, despite me telling a load of people, including the ENT consultant and my GP, that on several occasions this year I have felt suicidal. I am loath to cancel it until I have proved to myself that I can make it better on a permanent basis, because the least I will get is a couple of maskers which might prove helpful. I am not looking forward to having to replace one racket with another, but if it helps, then so be it. > So for you Ben, I am very happy that you have found treatment that > works for you. But tinnitus is very hard to diagnose and usually, > harder to treat effectively. But that doesn't mean that most docs > are not open-minded. Thank you for being happy for me Frank - so far! I don't know if it will last, but it is nice while it is. I have written to our RNID (Royal National Institute for the Deaf) because I feel that too much emphasis is being placed on hearing loss equals tinnitus ( common conception on all T sites too) and not enough is even known about T by the medical profession as you say above, in effect, to tar evey case with the same brush. Surely if someone like Elly is convinced that musular problems can exacerbate T, if not be the actual cause, or eventual cure, it should be taken more seriously in medical studies, and by doctors in general? Ben "Ben" <mc.tarty@ntlworld.com> wrote in part: >> >Ben <enjoying another peaceful morning> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Ben <still enjoying the peace and quiet, and looking forward to >experimenting again tomorrow> Ben, I am delighted that you are doing well at last. There is a lot that isn't known about tinnitus. We all have a lot to learn. Do I recall correctly that your tinnitus does come and go by its own schedule? If so, I truly hope that--for reasons I do not understand--your tinnitus stays gone this time.  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > Ben, I am delighted that you are doing well at last. There is a > lot that isn't known about tinnitus. We all have a lot to learn. Thanks Jim! > Do I recall correctly that your tinnitus does come and go by its > own schedule? If so, I truly hope that--for reasons I do not > understand--your tinnitus stays gone this time. My T can be variable, yes. It can go quiet - very rarely, on its own, and then I feel like weeping with joy. It is most often (this year especially) *very* loud and intolerable, and makes me feel suicidal. It can also be medium-ish, and tolerable on some days. If the noise is more on my right side, even loud-ish, I can tolerate it better than my left, but unfortuanetly, you guessed it, it is usually on my left side! It can be on both sides too, and is on a number of days. I have never kept a diary, and it's a pity I haven't so I can recall exactly what it is like, and when. This year, especially, has been one of the worst ever ( I have had T since 1991) so it is a great relief to me that I am able to do something about it without resorting to Valium, a Cider, or white wine! Oh, not forgetting sleeping half of my life away. I am expecting the T to remain though, and have to do this "experiment" every single day - not to stay gone. That would be expecting a miracle in my book! Another point others might like to know is that my T is always noisy when I awake, whether it is first thing, or after I have nodded off during the day. I feel therefore, that if I can quieten it down first thing, then I will be fine for the rest of that day, until I wake up the following morning. My variable T (as above) is as follows : I wake up, and it is usually noisy to very noisy. It then either subsides a little as the morning progresses, or gets much worse, or it could go quiet - usually gets worse though :( Once it has "settled" then that is what I am in for for the rest of that particular day, unless I fall asleep, and then it's more or less like starting a new day all over again. Ben > >I have repeated my "exercise" again this morning. I was a bit later and > >still tried lying on my left side, and although it probably took 20 minutes [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Good for you Ben. > I wonder what drfrank and chinnis make of this. That Ben does not have a typical tinnitus (how many people with subjective tinnitus can actually silence it at will just by lying on one's left side??). Maybe Jim or Murray can comment on how many people that they know of with tinnitus has this attribute or ability to silence their "t" this way. Elly, Ben is probably of 1% of the tinnitus population with his symptoms and ability to silence his tinnitus. And, I would agree, for him it's very likely muscular in origin. I'm just tired of you stating that 99% of tinnitus is muscular only when it is not. frank > Elly, Ben is probably of 1% of the tinnitus population with > his symptoms and ability to silence his tinnitus. And, > I would agree, for him it's very likely muscular in origin. I have some questions to ask here, to clarify what may be going on with Ben when he lies on his side. First, two for Ben... Okay, you lie on your side and your tinnitus goes (lucky chap!). What happens when you simply rest your head on its side when your body is otherwise sitting or standing ? Also, when you're lying on your side, does pillow position make any difference? In other words, if your neck is crooked when lying on your side, does this affect the tinnitus suppression? And a question for drfrank and others... Can you tell me why the sort of tinnitus which disappears when lying on the side is most likely to be muscular in origin? How does the musculature differ when one is standing straight and lying straight ? I really need educating here. I ask the above because because I'm wondering if local blood flow or blood pressure in the head might be playing a role here. Steve > I have some questions to ask here, to clarify what may be going on with Ben > when he lies on his side. > > First, two for Ben... Okay, you lie on your side and your tinnitus goes > (lucky chap!). What happens when you simply rest your head on its side when > your body is otherwise sitting or standing ? Prior to "experimenting" by lying in bed for longer than usual on my left side, the T would simply come back. My experiment is to lie there longer ( minimum of 30 minutes) to see if it will help to keep it at bay, and so far, so good! I have lain on the sofa with my head to my left side and the T gone quiet, but then I dropped off to sleep ( I am a notorious sleeper :) ) so I didn't benefit as my T is *always* noisy when I awake. As I am having to lie down for half an hour to 3/4 to keep the T at bay I don't think I could do that standing up, though I could try sitting. I will try that when I am convinced this experiment is definitely working permanently. > Also, when you're lying on your side, does pillow position make any > difference? In other words, if your neck is crooked when lying on your > side, does this affect the tinnitus suppression? I have stated in today's report (see Day 3) that I am exta careful about lying on my left side, and that I always use two pillows to tuck in the hollow of my neck and shoulder for support. I do try to straighten my head as I tend to tip it upwards, and I try to drop my chin muscles (not to the point of opening my mouth though). I also do deep breathing to try and relax - breathe in and tummy out, breathe out and tummy in. I am still a bit anxious I suppose, as I realise I must NOT on any account fall asleep. Hope this helps Steve. Even if you try it ( it might be your right side instead of left, or lying on your back) and it doesn't work, at least you might feel a bit more relaxed after it? Ben > > I have some questions to ask here, to clarify what may be going on with > Ben [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > think I could do that standing up, though I could try sitting. I will try > that when I am convinced this experiment is definitely working permanently. Thanks. I reasoned that both when you're standing up or lying down with legs stretched, your body's muscles are in similar positions. Therefore the difference you're observing in your T could not be caused by muscle tension. However, when you're lying down, the blood pressure or flow in your head/neck _could_ be different due to gravity. That's why I prefer the blood theory to muscle tension. As you know though, I only write here as a layman. The doctors here may like to correct the assumptions I'm making. >As I sit here typing this, I can't hear anything except my computer, so I am now looking forward to reading my Sunday broadsheets in peace. I wish those damned broadsheets weren't so unwieldy and huge! I generally drop off the bulk of them in the shop, just leaving the front section when I go to pay... Steve Keep us posted with your daily bulletins Ben. > That Ben does not have a typical tinnitus (how many people with > subjective tinnitus can actually silence it at will just by > lying on one's left side??). Maybe Jim or Murray can comment > on how many people that they know of with tinnitus has this > attribute or ability to silence their "t" this way. I first had T in 1991 and I habituated to it quite quickly, to my surprise! I unfortunately, had ITE aids (approx. 4 years ago) which were not programmed to my hearing loss, and because I know it can take time to get used to wearing aids I persisited with them for 6 months before realising something wasn't right - my tinnirus was 10 times worse! I have had difficutly since then - the past 4 years - and then this year had new BTE aids. Those aids are fine, and even quietened my T down for a whole week, but it didn't last - the dreaded T "broke" through. I don't feel I am silencing my T at the moment "at will" otherwise I wouldn't have it at all, eh? I am experimenting because I discovered, quite by chance, that the T would suddenly stop making a racket if I lay on my left side. Lord knows why it does, but it does! > Elly, Ben is probably of 1% of the tinnitus population with > his symptoms and ability to silence his tinnitus. And, > I would agree, for him it's very likely muscular in origin. > I'm just tired of you stating that 99% of tinnitus is muscular > only when it is not. I believe Elly only states a figure of 75%? In any case Frank, relaxation, and massage can all help stressed-out T sufferers, surely? I wish I could afford it! I think, if anyone is interested in my thoughts : I had "normal" tinnitus, so I thought. I now believe that my T is caused by me being far too tense, especially when I sleep, hence I always wake up with it. I also think anyone on here hoping to be the same as me, would be the those who are experiencing variable T - could be anywhere between quiet to very, very loud. My daughter has had T since birth, and hers does not vary hardly at all, so her hearig aids have now helped her enormously, but she still has the same level of tinnitus she has always had - it simply doesn't bother her, and never has. Ben After mentioning the possibilty of cancelling my appointment to my partner I have been instructed on NO account am I to do so, because if nothing else, how will doctors know/learn about cases such as mine if I don't tell them. Bright partner, eh? :) Ben > I believe Elly only states a figure of 75%? In any case Frank, relaxation, > and massage can all help stressed-out T sufferers, surely? I wish I could [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ben Ben, this was from a post from Elly in the "Desperate" header july 25th: Elly:"If one can accept that muscle tension is a large component of tinnitus, then 99 % of T cases will fall into that category. If one cannot or will not consider that option then research will continue to wonder in useless directions. " I completely agree that stress can be a component of tinnitus but it is not the cause. Stress, for many people, does indeed aggravate tinnitus (and it does for me). I think massage therapy and relaxation techniques can only be of help. I also think that biofeedback is a technique lost in the shuffle that could have a beneficial impact. But one becomes terribly myopic if tinnitus is claimed to be only muscular in origin. frank >Ben, this was from a post from Elly in the "Desperate" header july >25th: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >frank Various answers: Ben said. >I believe Elly only states a figure of 75%? In any case Frank, relaxation, >and massage can all help stressed-out T sufferers, surely? I used to say that. But after years of being on the internet I have upped the figure. >I am not looking forward to >having to replace one racket with another, but if it helps, then so be it. You should not be replacing one racket with another. That is a common mistake. I believe the idea is to set the masker at a level just below the T. Don't try to drown it out. >unfortuanetly, you guessed it, it is usually on my left side! That suggests that there is stronger tension on the left side than the right. The reason for suggesting the massage is not only for relaxation. But it will confirm for you that there is indeed tension. Most people will not be persuaded by argument if they do not feel the tension. And it is quite possible to have tension and not feel it. At least 3 therapists told me I had tension. One even suggested that I was an A type personality. But I never felt the tension. Frank said: >I'm just tired of you stating that 99% of tinnitus is muscular >only when it is not. Maybe I can't prove that it is so. But you can't prove the opposite. I have been in this newsgroup for a long time now. I can usually recognise if a person has tension they are not aware of. Over 50.000.000 Americans have Tinnitus. They do not all suffer ear damage. But a muscular connection makes much more sense. Too many people have T and never been exposed to loud sounds. So loud noise does not fit the equation either. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ > Frank said: > >I'm just tired of you stating that 99% of tinnitus is muscular > >only when it is not. elly:> Maybe I can't prove that it is so. But you can't prove the opposite. > I have been in this newsgroup for a long time now. I can usually > recognise if a person has tension they are not aware of. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Too many people have T and never been exposed to loud sounds. So loud > noise does not fit the equation either. This is a very common arguement, especially coming from alternative health advocates criticizing conventional medicine: "Hey, prove to me that my herbal remedy doesn't cure all cancers!" Elly, you made the assertion and it is up to you to prove it. I am indeed challenging your assertion but it is not up to me to disprove anything. This is just a small list of possible causes of tinnitus: (taken from a med jounal) * Hearing loss * Noise-Induced Hearing Loss * Earache * Ear infection * Fluid in the ear * Ear wax * Presbycusis * Allergies * Acoustic Neurinoma * Auditory nerve tumor * Otitis externa * Middle ear infection * Labyrinthitis * Blocked eustachian tube * Otosclerosis * Ear foreign body * Meniere's disease * Heart murmur - the sound of the heart is sometimes heard within the ear. * Anemia - may cause noises in the ear. * Paget's disease of bone * Arteriosclerosis * Psychological disorders * Certain toxins * Certain medications Tinnitus as a symptom: Conditions listing Tinnitus as a symptom may also be potential underlying causes of Tinnitus. The list of conditions listing Tinnitus as a symptom in our database includes: * Acoustic Neurinoma * Barotitis Media * Ear wax * Hearing Impairment * Herpes zoster oticus * Hypertension * Labrynthitis * Ménière's disease * Middle ear infection * Neurofibromatosis-2 * Noise-Induced Hearing Loss * Otosclerosis * Perforated eardrum So it is reasonable to assume that 99%(which is essentially all) of tinnitus sufferers or even half of that is just due to a single cause?? As an aside, I am doing a couple of informal studies that I started a couple of months ago. My aim was not to get anything published but more to satisfy some curiosity and haven't been able to find anything comparable doing a google search. The first study is identifying those with tinnitus during my eye exam personal health history (asking the patient or seeing if previous noted as health problem) and seeing if there is any correlation with their visual refractive status (myopia vs hyperopia) and severity of their tinnitus. I'm also asking the patient if they know or have been told by a med professional the cause of their tinnitus. My numbers are very early and in my office but mostly seem to be from hearing loss, a couple from meniere's, one with otosclerosis, and a few of unknown causes. The second informal study I'm doing doesn't directly involve tinnitus. But this study is in regards to whether an individual has both a hearing loss along with a vision loss and which loss of sense do they deem the more debilitating. I'm most trying to compare unilateral losses (vision and hearing loss in only one eye and ear). But I'm also getting info on bilateral loss as well. Again, very preliminary, but those with single sided loss (both hearing and vision) deem the loss of hearing more debilitating and those with bilateral loss deem the loss of vision more debilitating. My bias has always been that the loss of vision supercedes every other sense so I'm suprised that the early results are showing something else with unilateral loss. I'll probably start a new post in the future when I get the final results tabulated. frank drfrank21@gmail.com wrote in part: >The second informal study I'm doing doesn't directly >involve tinnitus. But this study is in regards to whether [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >every other sense so I'm suprised that the early results >are showing something else with unilateral loss. There's been some interesting research on loss of bilateral hearing vs vision. As I recall, total hearing loss was judged by some measures to be worse than total vision loss. I suspect that comes as a surprise to those of us who still have serviceable hearing and vision. I think the saying is that blindness cuts you off from the physical world and deafness cuts you off from people. There's also been research on changes that take place over time in the afflicted person's assessment of the seriousness of hearing and vision. As I recall, the finding was that losses that are catastophic at the time often become viewed as much less significant as time goes by. Not directly relevant, but thought I'd mention it. Also, while I suspect most of us place vision as our primary sense, it is difficult to imagine having no somatosensory capability. And those with total vestibular loss have a terrible row to hoe... SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG I will be very interested in the results of your study. You might be interested in a study from Finland which used lidocaine into muscular trigger points. 118 pages long. acta.uta.fi/pdf/951-44-4972-X.pdf On another subject. "Over 50 million North American adults suffer from tinnitus, often associated with ringing-in-the-ears, said Dennis Woo, PhD, Vice President of Audiological Products at Spectral Visualization and Development (SVD) Inc in New Brunswick." (FROM http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/6/prweb134319.htm) Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >> Frank said: >> >I'm just tired of you stating that 99% of tinnitus is muscular [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > >frank > On another subject. > "Over 50 million North American adults suffer from tinnitus, often > associated with ringing-in-the-ears," said Dennis Woo, PhD, Vice > President of Audiological Products at Spectral Visualization and > Development (SVD) Inc in New Brunswick." > (FROM http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/6/prweb134319.htm) This is utter nonsense. Over 50 North Americans do not "suffer" from tinnitus. The use of the word "suffer" implies a significant level of severity that has daily impact on people's lives. There may be 50 million people who experience tinnitus at one time or another. They hear it for a brief period of time and then it goes away. Fifty million don't suffer from tinnitus. HNG >There may be 50 million >people who experience tinnitus at one time or another. They hear it for a >brief period of time and then it goes away. Fifty million don't suffer from >tinnitus. How do you know that? Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ Because every statistic I've read from the ATA contradicts this statement. In addition, my clinical experience dictates this. Most (>50%) of the patients we saw stated that they experienced tinnitus. They did not suffer from tinnitus. HNG SignatureA Zen Thought: Save the whales. Collect the whole set. HNG Howard N. Gutnick, Ph.D. Body Pride Personal Training BodyPride@cox.net www.BodyPrideOnline.com 757 496-3270 Home 757 630-9208 Mobile > >>There may be 50 million [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Elly's Tinnitus Resources > http://eebee.net/ >I'm just tired of you stating that 99% of tinnitus is muscular >only when it is not. When a doctor cannot find any of the reasons Frank cited in another post then muscular is the only answer left. Don't forget that by the time people get here they have been to a doctor and/or ENT, and any of those causes would have been ruled out. Many of you might be tired of hearing this. But people visiting this group for the first time have never heard it before. And they need to know that there are other answers. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >> >I have repeated my "exercise" again this morning. I was a bit later and >> >still tried lying on my left side, and although it probably took 20 minutes [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >frank > >I'm just tired of you stating that 99% of tinnitus is muscular >>only when it is not. > > When a doctor cannot find any of the reasons Frank cited in another > post then muscular is the only answer left. What leap of logic allows you to state this? Just because another cause can't be found does not necessarily imply that your pet cause is the only possible answer. It may actually mean that the cause is unknown, but that it isn't muscle tension. In our practice, we looked for muscle tension as a cause. But we needed actually physical signs of muscle tension. It wasn't the "waste basket" that we used to describe all cases of tinnitus where we couldn't find an obvious cause. HNG >> >I'm just tired of you stating that 99% of tinnitus is muscular >>>only when it is not. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >HNG That is absolutely the first time I have heard anybody mention that they looked for muscle tension. What is your practice? Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ Our practice was "Atlantic Coast Ear Specialists" in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Our practice was absorbed by a local medical school and I have changed professions and am no longer practicing audiology. SignatureHNG A Zen Thought: A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory. Howard N. Gutnick, Ph.D. Body Pride Personal Training BodyPride@cox.net www.BodyPrideOnline.com 757 496-3270 Home 757 630-9208 Mobile >>> >I'm just tired of you stating that 99% of tinnitus is muscular >>>>only when it is not. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Elly's Tinnitus Resources > http://eebee.net/ |
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