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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / August 2005

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hearing and the spinal cord

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Elly Byrne - 12 Aug 2005 05:12 GMT
I received the following to day. It is an extract from a fuller
article.

===================
The eighth cranial nerve, the acoustic nerve, is a purely sensory
nerve. It goes from the hearing organ into the brain for
interpretation. But the hearing organ is made up of an eardrum; it is
made up of three little bones, the ossicles; it's made up of muscles
that activate those; it's made up of the organ of corti, a very, very
intricate and exquisitely arranged system of neurons which, of course,
are all human body tissues; and all of them require an ability to take
on food stuff and give off waste products in order for themselves to
be healthy. Those are called trophic functions.

That nerve supply starts in the nuclei of the brainstem. The brain
stem goes down the tracks of the cord at least as low as what we refer
to as a stellate ganglion, which is a sympathetic ganglion opposite
the transversus of the seven cervical  first thoracic spinal nerves.
From there, those impulses recur out into the sympathy trunks.

The sympathy trunks then recur back up the neck, middle cervical
ganglion, superior cervical ganglion and prolongations of which go
back through the cranial floor by the internal carotid canal, and by
way of the internal carotid and cavernous plexus, connect with all the
cranial nerves including the hearing organ.

Those structures of hearing gain their trophic nerve supply by what we
call a motor supply, not through the eighth cranial nerve.
…………..

Once an impulse gets into the sympathetic trunk, it recurs up and down
the pre-ganglionic and post-ganglionic fibers, and it's easy for us to
understand and research how those trophic impulses come from the
spinal cord into all of the cranial nerves.
=================

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
Ben - 12 Aug 2005 16:32 GMT
> I received the following to day. It is an extract from a fuller
> article.

Thanks Elly, but it all sounds a bit high-fallutin' to me.  Is it possible
for you to translate it into plain English? :)

Ben
Elly Byrne - 12 Aug 2005 21:23 GMT
>> I received the following to day. It is an extract from a fuller
>> article.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Ben

I didn't write it Ben. I just copied it.

But to me it says that there is most definitely a connection between
tinnitus and the spinal cord. And here is the way it works.

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
drfrank21@gmail.com - 13 Aug 2005 04:05 GMT
> I received the following to day. It is an extract from a fuller
> article.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> spinal cord into all of the cranial nerves.
> =================

Elly, obviously anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of
neuroanatomy realizes that the cns (central nervous system)
comprises of both the spinal cord and the brain.
I have a fairly good overall knowledge of both the pns
(peripheral nervious system) and the cns but I don't
proclaim myself an expert in neuroanatomy/physiology.
But again,the 8 th cranial nerve goes from the pons (brainstem)
to the inner ear- it doesn't travel down the spinal cord. The electical
impulse ends at the corticol (brain) level and it does not
send afferent or efferent impulses down the spinal cord. Yes, the
parasympathic and sympathic fibers do connect up from the spinal
cord to the brainstem but there are no 8th cn fibers.
Our fingers do not "hear".

If you sever the spinal cord,
depending on where the injury is, one becomes a quad or
a paraplegic. But the cranial nerves are still intact-
so functions such as hearing or vision are still functional.

The last 2 paragraphs of your submission frankly confuses me
(I've never stated I'm an expert): the inner ear is only supplied
by a purely sensory nerve and I wasn't aware of any motor
nerve supply to this part of the ear. Trophic function is on
a local cellular level.

What is all boils down to is that there is limited, if any,
spinal cord involvement w/ the acuoustic nerve. As such,
chiro spinal adjustments or any other treatment involving
the spinal cord,IMO, would have little to no benefit in
helping hearing or equilibrium due to damage of the acoustic
nerve.

frank
Jim Chinnis - 13 Aug 2005 15:57 GMT
drfrank21@gmail.com wrote in part:

>If you sever the spinal cord,
>depending on where the injury is, one becomes a quad or
>a paraplegic. But the cranial nerves are still intact-
>so functions such as hearing or vision are still functional.

Unaffected, in fact. And that kills the argument that Elly seems
to be trying to make.

>The last 2 paragraphs of your submission frankly confuses me
>(I've never stated I'm an expert): the inner ear is only supplied
>by a purely sensory nerve and I wasn't aware of any motor
>nerve supply to this part of the ear. Trophic function is on
>a local cellular level.

I'm used to seeing trophic functions described on the cellular
level as well. I don't know what to make of the anonymously (here
at least)  written argument. It's possible that the trigeminal can
affect blood flow in the middle ear, but that's about as close as
I can come...
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Elly Byrne - 13 Aug 2005 20:48 GMT
I have been meaning to ask you - what kind of doctor are you exactly?

Elly.

>Elly, obviously anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of
>neuroanatomy realizes that the cns (central nervous system)
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
>frank

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
drfrank21@gmail.com - 14 Aug 2005 01:31 GMT
> I have been meaning to ask you - what kind of doctor are you exactly?
>
> Elly.

Any reason for this question (or just curious)??

Degrees:  B.S. Biology (microbiology) , B.S. Chemistry (biochem)
and Doctor of Optometry (O.D.).

As an optometrist, I have to been intimately aware of cranial nerve
function, especially those involving the eye (optic, oculomotor,
trochlear, abducens). For instance, if someone suddenly develops
diplopia (double vision) it's my responsibility to determine which
nerve and where in the pathway is the lesion/damage.

frank
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 14 Aug 2005 10:01 GMT
As a result of your academic training, you may not be an authority
talking about the relationship between spine and acoustic nerve.  NO?
drfrank21@gmail.com - 14 Aug 2005 20:01 GMT
> As a result of your academic training, you may not be an authority
> talking about the relationship between spine and acoustic nerve.  NO?

Genius, show me where I ever claimed to be an expert or authority on
the acoustic nerve?  Never said I was an oto-neurologist. But I do have
some education and training in anatomy/physiology and neurology
and thus can express some educated opinions.

At least I spelled out my academic background.  Do you or Elly have
the guts to list your academic histories here to explain why either of
you
seem to be experts in tinnitus. My bet is that you wont. Put up or shut
up.

frank
Elly Byrne - 14 Aug 2005 21:25 GMT
http://eebee.net/about.html

>> As a result of your academic training, you may not be an authority
>> talking about the relationship between spine and acoustic nerve.  NO?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>frank

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
Jim Chinnis - 14 Aug 2005 22:17 GMT
Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part:

>http://eebee.net/about.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>Elly's Tinnitus Resources
>http://eebee.net/

Your referenced site doesn't mention your academic credentials at
all, Elly.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Elly Byrne - 15 Aug 2005 20:54 GMT
>Your referenced site doesn't mention your academic credentials at
>all, Elly.

ADMT = Associate Diploma of Music Teaching
2 years obstetric nursing.
Lots of insight, intuition, common sense and an ability to see things
from different perspectives.
Always curious - reading - asking - questions etc.

I am quite sure you had figured out by now I have no academic medical
credentials. I stay away from medical problems. I do not enter into
discussions on drugs.

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
Jim Chinnis - 15 Aug 2005 23:29 GMT
Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part:

>>Your referenced site doesn't mention your academic credentials at
>>all, Elly.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Elly's Tinnitus Resources
>http://eebee.net/

Elly, academic credentials don't really include things like, "Lots
of insight, intuition, common sense..."

I have come to know people here who have no academic credentials
that would seem to relate to tinnitus and yet are able to analyze
and think clearly about quite technical anatomical, physiological,
and psychological tinnitus research. But I really don't think that
you understand the extract of the paper you posted here, even in a
rough fashion. In fact, I/m quite sure of it.

Yes, it has been obvious that you have no medical (or scientific,
or research) credentials. The fact that you are interested in
somatic influencers of tinnitus and attribute your own improvement
to addressing them is fine despite that. What isn't fine is to
attribute nearly all tinnitus to what has only as yet been
identified as an influencer of tinnitus in a large portion of
people.

Your oft-cited argument that because an instance of tinnitus
hasn't been shown to be due to anything else must mean that it is
due to muscle tension is ludicrous. Invariably, the instance
hasn't been shown to be due to that, either.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

Elly Byrne - 16 Aug 2005 21:29 GMT
>But I really don't think that
>you understand the extract of the paper you posted here, even in a
>rough fashion. In fact, I/m quite sure of it.

I wanted some feedback and opinions on that extract.

I got it.

Thank you.

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
Jim Chinnis - 17 Aug 2005 01:02 GMT
Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.net.noway> wrote in part:

>>But I really don't think that
>>you understand the extract of the paper you posted here, even in a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Thank you.

You're welcome.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

fyfpoon@gmail.com - 15 Aug 2005 06:25 GMT
I indicated that you 'may not' be an authority but did not say that you
'may be'.

My academic background has nothing to do with my comments on tinnitus
but having visited about 15 doctors during the onset 'seems' to have
given me the qualification to make comments on t.  By 'making
comments', neither myself or Elly has claimed to be an 'expert'.

I have never found your medical training to be lacking in what you need
to comment on T.  However, your writen English, and in particular your
ability to express yourself precisely in English, seems to have left a
lot to be desired.
Elly Byrne - 14 Aug 2005 21:22 GMT
Thank you. Just curious.
But it could be handy if an ocular problem is ever mentioned.

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/

>> I have been meaning to ask you - what kind of doctor are you exactly?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>frank
Elly Byrne - 13 Aug 2005 20:52 GMT
dr frank said:
"What is all boils down to is that there is limited, if any,
spinal cord involvement w/ the acuoustic nerve. As such,
chiro spinal adjustments or any other treatment involving
the spinal cord,IMO, would have little to no benefit in
helping hearing or equilibrium due to damage of the acoustic
nerve."

If there was damage I agree with you completely. And apparently you
have such damage as stated in an earlier post.

But most, many, people have no such damage. The damage factor is
totally overstated.

I did now write the article - I only copied it.

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/

>> I received the following to day. It is an extract from a fuller
>> article.
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
>frank
drfrank21@gmail.com - 14 Aug 2005 01:52 GMT
> dr frank said:
> "What is all boils down to is that there is limited, if any,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Elly's Tinnitus Resources
> http://eebee.net/

Three important points here Elly. The first is that your
header is titled "hearing and the spinal cord" and I pointed
out there was little to none involvement which you conveniently
ignored. The sense of hearing has little to do with the spinal cord.

The second is that you didn't care to cite your
excerpted material and this is a case where most of it seemed
accurate but was somewhat misleading IMO. Did it come from the Mayo
Clinic
Neurology dept(or some respected neurology source)
or was it from some alternative health source?? I'd venture a
guess it was the latter.

Third, if the acoustic nerve itself is indeed not injured or
damaged (and if assumning that the tinnitus is due to
nerve damage) then HOW can any manipulations/adjustments or
other treatment of the spine (and "spinal cord") be of any help
if it's healthy??
If the damage factor is "overstated" as you say then how can
treatment help an already "non-injured" nerve??

Elly, I'm sorry but your post seemed intellectually dishonest.

frank
Elly Byrne - 14 Aug 2005 21:30 GMT
>Three important points here Elly. The first is that your
>header is titled "hearing and the spinal cord" and I pointed
>out there was little to none involvement which you conveniently
>ignored. The sense of hearing has little to do with the spinal cord.

I can see your point. But if some people's hearing improves by soinal
adjustment - and it does - then there is some kinf of connection. We
just don't know what it is.

>The second is that you didn't care to cite your
>excerpted material and this is a case where most of it seemed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>or was it from some alternative health source?? I'd venture a
>guess it was the latter.
The magazine was called ICA REVIEW. It was sent to me by a
chiropractor. I deliberately did not state that to avoid instant bias.

>Third, if the acoustic nerve itself is indeed not injured or
>damaged (and if assumning that the tinnitus is due to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>If the damage factor is "overstated" as you say then how can
>treatment help an already "non-injured" nerve??

I don't know HOW - but it can and does.

>Elly, I'm sorry but your post seemed intellectually dishonest.
>
>frank

Sorry about the dishonest bit. I wanted to inititate discussion. I am
only sorry that out local ENT has not jumped in. But then - it is the
weekend.

Elly's Tinnitus Resources
http://eebee.net/
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 15 Aug 2005 06:28 GMT
Elly,

Your local ENT doctor finds the spine too far away from the cochlea to
be of interest to him.
 
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