Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / August 2005
I don't know and I don't want to know
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fyfpoon@gmail.com - 09 Aug 2005 18:53 GMT Six months ago, I went back to the hospital in China. This hospital is divided into two large faculties: the one of western medicine and one of TCM. I told my ex-ENT and neurology doctors about my improvement and how that improvement had been brought about using TCM method. In particular, I brought up the link between kidney function and tinnitus, as explained to me by the TCM doctors. The reply from the doctors in the faculty of western medicine was:"we don't know and we don't want to know".
On the other hand, the doctors in alt have never ridiculed the link between kidney function and tinnitus, nor have they lent support to this thesis. Thus their reply, in unspoken terms, is the same:"we don't know and we don't want to know".
Well, just when would happen if such a link between kidney function and tinnitus were the common cause of tinnitus for most suffers?
FP
Murray Grossan - 09 Aug 2005 19:34 GMT On 8/9/05 10:53 AM, in article 1123609982.951766.47720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, "fyfpoon@gmail.com"
> Six months ago, I went back to the hospital in China. This hospital is > divided into two large faculties: the one of western medicine and one [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > FP The problem here is that you are using a single example to cover all situations. A meteor struck my roof and damaged my roof. Conclusion: All roof damage is caused by Meteors.
If there is renal failure, people on dialysis, etc there is an upset in the salt ion balance that can lead to tinnitus and can be corrected when the renal condition is corrected BUT this has no relation to the Kidney as defined by oriental medicine meridians, etc. I assure you that if you enter the doctor's office in renal failure and tinnitus he will treat you well. But that is not to say that tinnitus can ONLY be caused by renal failure. Again, a semantic problem. When you speak of Kidney are you referring to the organ, salt balance, waste balance, hypertension, etc etc etc. Hypertension is associated with certain kidney disease. But if the kidneys are working, we look elsewhere for treatment.
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 09 Aug 2005 19:45 GMT The crux of the matter is whether or not something is true or not true regardless it is an eastern or western theory.
During the onset of my t, I took some med which was meant to strengthen my kidney. The med produced a quiet day but raised my blood pressure. However, some kind of relationship, be it correlational or causal, was there.
The problem is in knowing that the kidney is OK. That is where eastern and western medical theories differ. Someone who has just experienced an emotional turmoil may have suffered damage in his kidney but whatever damage there is cannot be detected by modern scientific instruments.
drfrank21@gmail.com - 10 Aug 2005 01:16 GMT > On 8/9/05 10:53 AM, in article > 1123609982.951766.47720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, "fyfpoon@gmail.com" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Hypertension is associated with certain kidney disease. But if the kidneys > are working, we look elsewhere for treatment. Murray, francis is referring to the yin and yang of chinese medicine which is totally different from modern medicine in relation to the kidney's assoc with tinnitus. Whereas modern medicine relates kidneys problems to an actual pathology/dysfunction, chinese medicine relates kidney disharmonies/Yin and Yang deficiencies.
Below is a cite I found that explains it a little further:
From: Paul Iannone <p_iannone.POP.COM>
""> I would like to offer this passage from Between Heaven and Earth: A Guide to Chinese Medicine by Beinfield and Korngold (pg. 125) "With a deficiency if Kidney Yang, the person feels cold and is cold to the touch, and symptoms manifest such as diarrhea, frequent or incontinent urine, infertility, impotence, premature ejaculation, loss of hearing, *ringing in the ears*, dizziness from fatigue, and weakness and pain in the knees, lower legs, and low back."
The word for tinnitis in Chinese is Er3 Ming3, or 'ear chirping.' Ming3 refers to bird or insect noise, so 'ear buzzing' is an alternative translation.
Kidney Yang deficiency was NOT indicated in this particular case as I recall. The 'ringing' present in a case of KY Deficiency (and Fallen Spleen Qi) will be a low-pitched (and booming if associated with Damp accumulation), with inability of the Clear Yang to reach the ear (which causes a general hearing loss). Qi Xu Er Ming, or Qi Deficient tinnitis will be low-pitched and continuous, like the chirping of a cricket. The patient will be exhausted, and depressed (not excitedly complaining about the noise).
High-pitched ringing relates to YIN or Essence Deficiency Heat, Phlegm Heat, or Liver Heat. It is a type of Internal Wind-Heat--like steam whistling from a teapot. It is for this reason that Gallbladder Channel points, with the GB's predilection to Heat, are very commonly indicated for tinnitis. This sort of tinnitis is often only associated with loss of the ability to hear voices clearly (there is Something in the way, namely Heat or Wind). This is sometimes called 'Qi Block.' I suspect some sort of Qi Block in this case, and don't particularly believe the hearing has been damaged just because that's what the doctors say.
The one additional type of ear ringing is the occasional ringing ear that all people get from time to time. This is always associated with inactivity, and is a form of mild Wind due to Qi Stagnation, and doesn't point to a Pathology. Remember that these are very small bones buzzing, so even tiny amounts of Wind will ring them like chimes.
From: Paul Iannone <p_iannone.POP.COM>
> How do you diagnose a Kidney Yang deficiency (as opposed to other problems causing similar symptoms), and what is the suggested cure/re-balancing? Kidney Yang Deficiency is a complex term that should be understood essentially as a condition in which the Warming nature of the body has been harmed by Depletion. This Fire is Stored in the Kidney region, and is what keeps us alive. When Kidney Yang wanes entirely, death occurs. Disharmonies in the Kidneys CAN cause ear complaints, since the 'Kidneys come out at the ears.' Black ears, for example, signal pending death in terminal illnesses (Kidney Yang Collapse).
Even though this is so, it is not possible to simply gobble a bunch of Kidney Yang Replenishing herbals to extend life. To do so can Damage Yin, which is equally problematic for continued existence. In fact, most Americans are tending toward Depletion of Yin, NOT Yang, and certainly the incidence of Yang Deficiency in the young is uncommon (youth is usually the time of Yang).
In a healthy society, Depletion from daily living rarely taps the Kidneys at all. People living balanced lives Deplete their Qi and Blood through their activities, which are primarily replenished by rest and food (respectively). Chronic Depletion, however, forces the Reserve Energy System ('Kidneys') to produce Qi and Blood directly--which is very Draining to that Reserve.
While it is true that Depletion of Kidney Yang produces tinnitis, it is of quite different sort than that caused by Heat (such as an infection). To treat Hot-type tinnitis with Heating therapies or Kidney Yang Boosting herbals would cause FURTHER DAMAGE to both the ears and the Kidney Yin, which is often harmed in severe Heat Attacks.
The bottom line is that if you don't know if you are Kidney Yang Depleted (by diagnosis of a qualified party) DON'T take that category of herbals. You will just make your problems bigger. And if you don't know what characterizes an illness pattern don't just turn to a reference work from a tradition you haven't entirely internalized."" End quote.
An interesting stat to find would be the incidence of tinnitus in the eastern world vs the west. If chinese medicine was indeed so successful in treating/curing tinnitus the rate of "t" would be non-existent in the east. My guess is that the incidence of tinnitus is pretty much the same in Asia as in the west.
frank
Murray Grossan - 10 Aug 2005 04:33 GMT On 8/9/05 5:16 PM, in article 1123632999.614283.233220@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "drfrank21@gmail.com"
> My guess is that the incidence of tinnitus > is pretty much the same in Asia as in the west. My observation when I lectured in China was that the incidence of tinnitus was higher in China - more smoking, higher salt intake, lots more stress - you try riding a bicycle through China traffic. Interesting too is that the incidence of train and plane sickness is MUCH higher among native chinese, but not american chinese from the same family .
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 10 Aug 2005 18:07 GMT > > On 8/9/05 10:53 AM, in article > > 1123609982.951766.47720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, "fyfpoon@gmail.com" [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > non-existent in the east. My guess is that the incidence of tinnitus > is pretty much the same in Asia as in the west. Well, drfrank, I am glad you have finally broken through the boundary of burgers and chips and looked into a world that used to be strange to you in every way.
Every road leads to Rome. While in western medical terms, kidney disfunctioning represents physical damage that can be detected visually and with scientific instruments, kidney damage in the TCM sense is not something you can see but something that can be 'felt'.
Let me give you an example. About a year and half ago, I experienced the surfacing of t. It started after a prolonged emotional turmoil in which my blood pressure was out of control and the several doctors did not know what to do. Then the t became full-fledged. It was so horrible to the point that I experienced whistle blowing inside the centre of my brain at the middle of the night. So I went to a TCM and he prescribed me some herbs. The latter was meant to redress the balance in my kidney, as he had believed that the Yan element in my kidney had been depleted by emotional turmoil or whatever mental experiences I had gone through. The herbs were like ATIVAN in terms of their power to stop the ring but unfortunatley raised my blood pressure highly. I had to stop it. If at that time, I had not experienced this side-effect, I should have continued to be on that herbs until the energy balance of my kidney was redressed! I should have gone to another TCM doctor so that the herbs prescribed differently could have stopped the ring without raising my blood pressure. But at that time I was IN-experienced in treating t.
FP =============================
> frank drfrank21@gmail.com - 10 Aug 2005 23:21 GMT > Well, drfrank, I am glad you have finally broken through the boundary > of burgers and chips and looked into a world that used to be strange to > you in every way. Well Francis, I am also glad you as well have finally broken through the boundary of suishi and rice and looked into a world of, gasp, "modern medicine". So just how racist are you?? Or is it just ignorance you plead??
frank
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 11 Aug 2005 00:47 GMT Racist? Don't abuse the word. It is a sense of humor. Can't you take some humor? For your information, the history of burger started with Tartar meat. Then look into the history of Tartars and see if there is any element of racism involved.
Elly Byrne - 11 Aug 2005 21:06 GMT >Racist? Don't abuse the word. It is a sense of humor. Can't you take >some humor? For your information, the history of burger started with >Tartar meat. Then look into the history of Tartars and see if there is >any element of racism involved. Humor does not work on the internet. We cannot see the expression on your face. We cannot hear your tone of voice.
Other people have tried to be funny but it simply does not work.
That is why they invented smilies or <grin> or something like that.
Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/
drfrank21@gmail.com - 11 Aug 2005 23:39 GMT > Racist? Don't abuse the word. It is a sense of humor. Can't you take > some humor? For your information, the history of burger started with > Tartar meat. Then look into the history of Tartars and see if there is > any element of racism involved. Francis, you have not displayed any humor in any of your postings so don't go there. To make it worse you are sexist to boot!! Remember this golden oldie from a few weeks back? : "Most women are monetary animals. They are worse than dogs. Dogs don't desert their masters when the masters are poor, but women have the tendency to bud out when the financial affairs of the family are in shamble."
Or was this just another weak attempt of your "humor"??
frank
Susan - 11 Aug 2005 23:41 GMT >>Racist? Don't abuse the word. It is a sense of humor. Can't you take >>some humor? For your information, the history of burger started with [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > frank I wouldn't call it a "weak attempt."
I thought it was hysterically funny. :-)
Susan
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 14 Aug 2005 09:02 GMT I was serious when I said that. You may not be the one that belongs to that group but *most* of the women I have met in my life are that way. I used to think only the Chinese women were that way. Later on, I discovered all women that *I* have met are like that regardless of race. The Chinese ones, particularly those from Hong Kong, just happen to be more honest/outspoken about what they want, while others tend to camouflage what they want.
Howard N. Gutnick - 14 Aug 2005 10:02 GMT Francis,
I have been married for over 33 years to a woman who is the exact opposite of the ones you describe, and the vast majority of women I know are not like that. So, I wonder if you simply attract that kind of woman and it is a problem with your personality.
HNG I was serious when I said that. You may not be the one that belongs to that group but *most* of the women I have met in my life are that way. I used to think only the Chinese women were that way. Later on, I discovered all women that *I* have met are like that regardless of race. The Chinese ones, particularly those from Hong Kong, just happen to be more honest/outspoken about what they want, while others tend to camouflage what they want.
fyfpoon@gmail.com - 14 Aug 2005 05:28 GMT drfrank21@gmail.com =86=E9=93=BC
> > Racist? Don't abuse the word. It is a sense of humor. Can't you take > > some humor? For your information, the history of burger started with [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Or was this just another weak attempt of your "humor"?? No, I meant what i said for most of the women that i have met in my life. Yes, they are economic animals and they are worse than dogs in the regard of loyalty.
FP
> frank
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