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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / September 2005Why have the ENT doctors not mentioned the impaired 8th cranial nerve being a possible cause of tinnitus?
There is no shortage of liternature that talks about this 8th cranial nerve being a place where the cause of tinnitus can be found: http://ca.search.yahoo.com/search?vc=&p=tinnitus+cranial+nerve&sm=Search&fr=FP-t ab-web-t&tab=&ei=UTF-8 However, I don't seem to have run into any talk by the ENT doctors either online or offline that relates tinnitus to this nerve or for that matter nerve in general. Instead, *all* the ENT doctors I have visited place the focus of their treatments primarliy on blood circulation or cell hairs and their solution to this maddening ill invariably leads to 'habituation'. I have not read anything in alt from doctors about 'nerve' recovery as being a way to healing tinnitus. In fact, it is the t patients like ourselves that dig out this nerve thing. Thus I wonder if that is the way the ENT doctors are trained in schools; that is, the cochlea is studied in the absence of nerve consideration. Would like to be enlightened. Thank you in advance. FP > There is no shortage of liternature that talks about this 8th cranial > nerve being a place where the cause of tinnitus can be found: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > FP We've discussed the possibility that tinnitus results from damaged hair cells (where they connect to the auditory nerve) for at least the last 7 years Francis. I have no idea why you missed the hundreds of posts in this regard. Likewise, we have discussed the acoustic neuroma which presses on the auditory nerve and the fact that tinnitus can persist even after that nerve is severed. Also, people born without a cochlea can experience tinnitus. The precise cause of tinnitus remains unknown and when you can't pin down the cause of something the cure can elusive. I was under the impression that you are convinced tinnitus has its roots in the kidney and should be treated by eating black beans. There were several discussions about the auditory nerve while you were writing about the kidney, somatic discomfort, hyperbaric chambers and the intravenous infusion of those flavorful herbs and spices. >> FP > We've discussed the possibility that tinnitus results from damaged hair [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > discomfort, hyperbaric chambers and the intravenous infusion of those > flavorful herbs and spices. PS - Francis, tell you acupuncturist the auditory nerve is inside your skull. This way she will know to drill a small hole before placing the needle. So you think the only way to touch this nerve is to go into the skull. Don't you? > > There is no shortage of liternature that talks about this 8th cranial > > nerve being a place where the cause of tinnitus can be found: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > The precise cause of tinnitus remains unknown and when you can't pin down > the cause of something the cure can elusive. If the cause in general remains unknown, what is the point of talking about nerve at all? Why not talk about the toes, for example? I would say that at least *some* of the causes are related to nerve then we have to look into the nerve. No? I was under the impression > that you are convinced tinnitus has its roots in the kidney and should be > treated by eating black beans. Yes, at least *one* of the causes is in the kidney, and the use of black beans over a time period can be used to strengthen the kidney. Don't you agree? If you don't agree, that would mean you deny the kidney being related to our cochlea. I cited links produced by the doctors at that time to demonstrate that connection. Can you cite links to dispute that? I don't think you can. There were several discussions about the > auditory nerve while you were writing about the kidney, somatic discomfort, > hyperbaric chambers and the intravenous infusion of those flavorful herbs > and spices. So are they not related? ***is the auditory nerve not related to cochear, which in turn is related to kidney? ***is somatic discomfort in my head not related to nerve? How did the doctors relate it to? To the toes? ***is hyperbaric chamber treatment used to revive hair cells, which are connected to auditroy nerve? ***is the intravenous injection of blood dilating medicine which in this case is made of herb instead of synthetic materials not used to help blood circulation related to nerve? Yes, you are right that we might have covered 'nerve' but such a coverage is useless when you don't even know how to relate nerve to tinnitus. And people like yourself who are ignorant of relating in a logical manner have made such a topic irrelevant! On 8/8/05 6:09 PM, in article 1123549771.399289.57540@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "fyfpoon@gmail.com" > There is no shortage of liternature that talks about this 8th cranial > nerve being a place where the cause of tinnitus can be found: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > FP Think of the 8th nerve as the cord that transmits electricity to your hair drier. When the elect is down, there is nothing wrong with that wire. When water shortcircuts the wall socket and you get sparks at the drier, the cord is OK, but the volume and type of elect is bad. The Drier can be bad and emit a horrible noise - higher level tinnitus. But the cord is normal. The wiring of the cord can come loose - that would be like multiple sclerosis. Or the wire can be badly bent so that it works slowly or there can be a heavy weight on the cord. But in most cases of tinnitus the fault in not in the nerve itself. Dr Grossan wrote:"But in most cases of tinnitus the fault in not in the nerve itself." IN *most* cases, the fault may be in tension, which impairs kidney function. The latter gives rise to an unhealthy connection with the cochea. Thus the way to heal the t should be from two fronts: overall body relaxation and strengthening the kidney. Yes/NO? > IN *most* cases, the fault may be in tension, which impairs kidney > function. The latter gives rise to an unhealthy connection with the > cochea. Thus the way to heal the t should be from two fronts: overall > body relaxation and strengthening the kidney. Yes/NO? No. frank *How* do you know that, doc??? Prolonged emotional turmoil can impair many organs of our body. >There is no shortage of liternature that talks about this 8th cranial >nerve being a place where the cause of tinnitus can be found: > >http://ca.search.yahoo.com/search?vc=&p=tinnitus+cranial+nerve&sm=Search&fr=FP-t ab-web-t&tab=&ei=UTF-8 >Would like to be enlightened. Thank you in advance. > >FP I haven't read all that stuff yet but will get around to it. I had a very long talk with my chiro yesterday about Tinnitus. He treats tinnitus by 'adjusting' the atlas and vertebra underneath it. Now I am wondering whether the auditory nerve can by irritated by misaligned vertebrae. He lent me some anatomy books and I find that the vestibular nerve is pretty much attached to the auditory nerve. Is that why people get dizzy spells? He gave me some exercises. I told him I needed DIY things I can put in writing so I can pass them on to other people. It will take a few days before I get them in print. If only I could draw pictures. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ Remember the neck stretching machine I was showing to all of you. My acupuncturist told me to use it until my t is cured! It can't. The VIII nerve runs nowhere near a vertebra. And the kind of gross physical manipulation that a chiro uses would rip a cranial nerve to shreds. I think you would notice a fairly significant difference if the chiro's treatment actually affected your VIII nerve.  SignatureHNG A Zen Thought: Remember, half the people you know are below average. Howard N. Gutnick, Ph.D. Body Pride Personal Training BodyPride@cox.net www.BodyPrideOnline.com 757 496-3270 Home 757 630-9208 Mobile > >>There is no shortage of liternature that talks about this 8th cranial [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Elly's Tinnitus Resources > http://eebee.net/ Apply the spine-stretching machine I once showed you guys. I have been using it and experienced NO side-effect. As a matter of fact, it is very comfortable. Elly, First off, the 8 th cranial nerve is correctly called the vestibulocochlear nerve because the vestibular portion is a branch and part of the nerve. They are not separate entities. Secondly, as Howard pointed out, this is called a cranial nerve for a reason. The nerve fibers start (or end up) in the mid-brain (the pons), and goes thru the meatus to end up in the inner ear plate and doesn't even go near any vertebra. So I don't see how any mis-alignment or manipulation of vertebra could have any direct effect on this nerve. frank frank Thank you. I posted the reply to Howard before I had read your post. If the vestibulat portion of the nerveis part of the cochlear bit - would that not explain why some people get dizziness? Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >Elly, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >frank > Thank you. I posted the reply to Howard before I had read your post. > > If the vestibulat portion of the nerveis part of the cochlear bit - > would that not explain why some people get dizziness? Well in my case Elly, when my right-sided 8 th cranial nerve went "dead" from post-op complications, it did leave me with a triad: ssd (single-sided deafness), tinnitus, & loss of unilateral equilibrim with both vertigo and dizziness (they are not the same). So depending on where the auditory nerve is "injured" one can indeed have both hearing loss and equilibrium/dizziness complications. It's interesting, when this first initially happened to me, people asked which of the three problems would I want resolved if I could only have one "cured". Without hesitation, it would have been my tinnitus. Two years later my answer is totally different- restored hearing would be first and my tinnitus the last. frank Here:http://www.cnyiliao.net I have been using it for the past 6 months and my spine feels very comfortable. The effect was felt after a month. It's my understanding that some researchers believe that pulsatile tinnitus may be caused by intracranial hypertension bearing on the 8th cranial nerve, but I am not sure that the evidence is too convincing. John > There is no shortage of liternature that talks about this 8th cranial > nerve being a place where the cause of tinnitus can be found: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > FP On 9/3/05 1:31 PM, in article 1LnSe.640$oq4.426@newsfe5-win.ntli.net, "John Goddard" <john.goddard4@virgin.net> wrote: > There is no shortage of liternature that talks about this 8th cranial >> nerve being a place where the cause of tinnitus can be found: Actually the 8th nerve is rarely involved as a cause of tinnitus. It is the cochlear ear mechanism or the higher centers loss of "braking " mechanism but not the nerve itself. > Actually the 8th nerve is rarely involved as a cause of tinnitus. It is the > cochlear ear mechanism or the higher centers loss of "braking " mechanism > but not the nerve itself. Murray, are you saying that cranial nerve inflammation or infection does not cause tinnitus? Susan On 9/4/05 7:40 AM, in article 3o0fb9F3l4bhU1@individual.net, "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: > Murray, are you saying that cranial nerve inflammation or infection does > not cause tinnitus? The incidence of disease or trauma of the 8th nerve is so rare, that it can be automatically dismissed as a cause of tinnitus. If your 8th nerve is infalmmed, there are many many other signs to go along with making a diagnosis of the cause. When was the last time I saw a patient with 8th nerve pathology as a cause of his tinnitus? About 2 years ago. > On 9/4/05 7:40 AM, in article 3o0fb9F3l4bhU1@individual.net, "Susan" > <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > diagnosis of the cause. When was the last time I saw a patient with 8th > nerve pathology as a cause of his tinnitus? About 2 years ago. Murray, maybe it is rare but there's an interesting study (see below) with microvascular decompression. Are acoustic neuromas that rare? It would be interesting to know the incidence and correlation,if any, of resulting ssd (single-sided deafness)and tinnitus after removing the neuroma. It seems to me that most of the people I have talked to with ssd (from various causes) also have some sort of tinnitus as well. And in my own case, my tinnitis was a direct result of a "successful" stapes surgery with my acoustic nerve post-operatively undergoing some sort of inflammation/trauma resulting in a dead ear. Go figure. frank "Neurovascular decompression of the eighth cranial nerve in patients with hemifacial spasm and incidental tinnitus: an alternative way to study tinnitus. Ryu H, Yamamoto S, Sugiyama K, Uemura K, Nozue M. Department of Neurosurgery, Hamamatsu University School of Medicine, Shizuoka, Japan. OBJECT: The authors sought to clarify the clinical characteristics of tinnitus resulting from neurovascular compression (NVC) of the eighth cranial nerve. METHODS: The authors explored the eighth cranial nerve in the cerebellopontine cistern during neurovascular decompression (NVD) of the facial nerve in 10 patients with hemifacial spasm who suffered from incidental tinnitus on the same side. The diagnosis of NVC of the eighth cranial nerve was confirmed in all patients. This condition was found in only seven of 114 patients with hemifacial spasm alone, indicating that NVC of the eighth cranial nerve is one of the causes of tinnitus (p < 0.001, chi-square test). The tinnitus resolved or was markedly improved after NVD of the eighth cranial nerve in eight patients (80%). Both pulsatile and continuous tinnitus responded well to NVD. All patients experienced various degrees of sensorineural hearing disturbance, but other neurotological examinations provided poor diagnostic value. CONCLUSIONS: It is the authors' opinion that sensorineural hearing loss and positive findings on magnetic resonance imaging are the most reliable evidence for the presence of tinnitus caused by NVC of the eighth cranial nerve." There would be many other symptoms that would alert you to an VIII nerve site of lesion other than just tinnitus. Symptomatic acoustic neuromas are reasonably rare. And when a patient complains of unilateral T that can't be ascribed to another problem, they probably will have a brainstem auditory evoked response or a MRI with gadolinium enhancement as diagnostic studies. Patients with microvascular compression will also show episodic dizziness as their primary symptom and may also have tinnitus. The episodic vertigo will not respond to typical medical treatments and usually have a characteristic pattern on caloric testing during an ENG. Patients with M.S., another cause of unilateral tinnitus will have other symptoms. Not to speak for Murray, but inflammation of the VIII nerve will probably not cause isolated tinnitus, although it may be the first noticed symptom. HNG Murray Grossan wrote: > On 9/4/05 7:40 AM, in article 3o0fb9F3l4bhU1@individual.net, "Susan" > <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: > > > Murray, are you saying that cranial nerve inflammation or infection does > > not cause tinnitus? > The incidence of disease or trauma of the 8th nerve is so rare, that it can > be automatically dismissed as a cause of tinnitus. If your 8th nerve is > infalmmed, there are many many other signs to go along with making a > diagnosis of the cause. When was the last time I saw a patient with 8th > nerve pathology as a cause of his tinnitus? About 2 years ago. Murray, maybe it is rare but there's an interesting study (see below) with microvascular decompression. Are acoustic neuromas that rare? It would be interesting to know the incidence and correlation,if any, of resulting ssd (single-sided deafness)and tinnitus after removing the neuroma. It seems to me that most of the people I have talked to with ssd (from various causes) also have some sort of tinnitus as well. And in my own case, my tinnitis was a direct result of a "successful" stapes surgery with my acoustic nerve post-operatively undergoing some sort of inflammation/trauma resulting in a dead ear. Go figure. frank "Neurovascular decompression of the eighth cranial nerve in patients with hemifacial spasm and incidental tinnitus: an alternative way to study tinnitus. Ryu H, Yamamoto S, Sugiyama K, Uemura K, Nozue M. Department of Neurosurgery, Hamamatsu University School of Medicine, Shizuoka, Japan. OBJECT: The authors sought to clarify the clinical characteristics of tinnitus resulting from neurovascular compression (NVC) of the eighth cranial nerve. METHODS: The authors explored the eighth cranial nerve in the cerebellopontine cistern during neurovascular decompression (NVD) of the facial nerve in 10 patients with hemifacial spasm who suffered from incidental tinnitus on the same side. The diagnosis of NVC of the eighth cranial nerve was confirmed in all patients. This condition was found in only seven of 114 patients with hemifacial spasm alone, indicating that NVC of the eighth cranial nerve is one of the causes of tinnitus (p < 0.001, chi-square test). The tinnitus resolved or was markedly improved after NVD of the eighth cranial nerve in eight patients (80%). Both pulsatile and continuous tinnitus responded well to NVD. All patients experienced various degrees of sensorineural hearing disturbance, but other neurotological examinations provided poor diagnostic value. CONCLUSIONS: It is the authors' opinion that sensorineural hearing loss and positive findings on magnetic resonance imaging are the most reliable evidence for the presence of tinnitus caused by NVC of the eighth cranial nerve." I guess I must have misunderstood what was trying to be stated. I see patients with craniaI nerve palsies/pathologies pretty often relating to vision (ie. optic nerve, trochlear, abducens) and others such as facial (bell's palsy), trigeminal (tic del). I assumed that there would be a similar percentage of 8 th cn problems as well. But I totally agree that tinnitus wouldn't be the only symptom (obviously, from personal experience, hearing and equilibrium problems would be present) of an 8 th cn dysfunction. frank > There would be many other symptoms that would alert you to an VIII nerve site of lesion other than just tinnitus. Symptomatic acoustic neuromas are reasonably rare. And when a patient complains of unilateral T that can't be ascribed to another problem, they probably will have a brainstem auditory evoked response or a MRI with gadolinium enhancement as diagnostic studies. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > diagnosis of the cause. When was the last time I saw a patient with 8th > > nerve pathology as a cause of his tinnitus? About 2 years ago. drfrank21@gmail.com wrote in part: >I see patients with craniaI nerve palsies/pathologies pretty often >relating to vision (ie. optic nerve, trochlear, abducens) and others >such as facial (bell's palsy), trigeminal (tic del). I assumed that >there >would be a similar percentage of 8 th cn problems as well. I think this might prove to be true. There are a lot of conditions for which no cause is known that could involve the 8th cn. It's a controversial area, but some have published evidence and conjectures relating to the possibility. An example is Kedar K. Adour, MD in San Francisco, who wrote a number of journal articles on herpetic viral involvement in various "ear" conditions, especially Meniere. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG On 9/5/05 9:25 AM, in article psroh1ts43lg3idh0j056pr8li26v142bc@4ax.com, > drfrank21@gmail.com wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > number of journal articles on herpetic viral involvement in various "ear" > conditions, especially Meniere. At this stage of our knowledge, we really don't know if 7th and even sudden neurosensory loss is viral, autoimmune or GOK. So we treat for both. > On 9/5/05 9:25 AM, in article psroh1ts43lg3idh0j056pr8li26v142bc@4ax.com, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > At this stage of our knowledge, we really don't know if 7th and even sudden > neurosensory loss is viral, autoimmune or GOK. So we treat for both. But we do know that it's frequently bacterial. Susan > There would be many other symptoms that would alert you to an VIII nerve > site of lesion other than just tinnitus. Symptomatic acoustic neuromas [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > noticed symptom. > It wasn't my first symptom, and it was accompanied by many more, but my tinnitus is clearly caused by cranial nerve infection by neuroborreliosis, which is not at all rare. I experienced/experience hyperacusis, transient hearing losses, vertigo, T, facial numbness and tingling, the list goes on and on. In fact, all the cranial nerves are well known to be affected by Lyme disease, which is, again, not at all rare. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Susan Let's leave out the incidence/prevalence statistics. The point I and I think Murray is making is that a VIII nerve lesion will not result in just tinnitus, regardless of the cause, just as you experienced. There likely will be hearing loss, vertigo, facial numbness/tingling from involvement of the VII nerve that runs with the VIII nerve, hyperacusis, poor word recognition, and probably tinnitus. Tinnitus in the absence of other symptoms likely has it's root cause in the cochlea, although the prudent clinician will run diagnostic tests to rule out VIII nerve lesions, especially when the tinnitus is unilateral. HNG > Let's leave out the incidence/prevalence statistics. The point I and I think > Murray is making is that a VIII nerve lesion will not result in just [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > clinician will run diagnostic tests to rule out VIII nerve lesions, > especially when the tinnitus is unilateral. I wonder how many folks have other symptoms that happen at differing times, subtle at times, waxing and waning, that they don't realize could be associated with the tinnitus? Susan On 9/4/05 3:15 PM, in article 1125872142.988102.305740@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "drfrank21@gmail.com" >> On 9/4/05 7:40 AM, in article 3o0fb9F3l4bhU1@individual.net, "Susan" >> <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > imaging are the most reliable evidence for the presence of tinnitus > caused by NVC of the eighth cranial nerve." Exactly my point. A. it is rare B. there are other signs that make 8th nerve involvement obvious obvious. So, to say that tinnitus is caused by disease of the 8th nerve is not useful or correct. > The incidence of disease or trauma of the 8th nerve is so rare, that it can > be automatically dismissed as a cause of tinnitus. If your 8th nerve is > infalmmed, there are many many other signs to go along with making a > diagnosis of the cause. When was the last time I saw a patient with 8th > nerve pathology as a cause of his tinnitus? About 2 years ago. What would those other signs be? Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Susan Murray, Four years ago when i went to see DR Peter Jannetta in Pittsburgh for Tinnitus and Tic. He immediately diagnosed the 8th nerve as the cause of my Tinntus After running a few test that all proved negative, He recommended surgery because he claimed he had a 90% success rate. My T has gone sky high since the operation and has never come down for a day . John On 9/5/05 6:08 AM, in article ErXSe.7085$_84.2144@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net, "c/j" <deepwood@earthlink.net> wrote: >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > John John, if you care to send me the details to my e mail address. |
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