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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / May 2005The scientific explanation of napping
Can the doctors and research scientists here attempt to explain why napping is so bad for tinnitus? In my case, once I nap, even for a short moment, the undesirable effects could last for a couple of days. FP HOW do you nap? Are lying in bed relaxed? Or are you seated in a chair or lounge in a bad position? Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >Can the doctors and research scientists here attempt to explain why >napping is so bad for tinnitus? In my case, once I nap, even for a >short moment, the undesirable effects could last for a couple of days. > >FP Sometimes sitting down and sometimes sleeping. But it makes no difference. FP =================== > HOW do you nap? Are lying in bed relaxed? Or are you seated in a chair > or lounge in a bad position? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > >FP > HOW do you nap? Are lying in bed relaxed? Or are you seated in a chair > or lounge in a bad position? Is this action replay? Francis mentioned this a short time ago? I always have raging tinnitus after sleeping whatever position I sleep in. I would like to add that since I have been prescribed new BTE digital aids on Monday last, my T has quietened down after about an hour of putting them on, even after napping! <SIGH> Ben <who is finding silence a bit weird after 14 years and 3 months of noise!> . Where could you find a link to "BTE digital aids"? Tks. > Where could you find a link to "BTE digital aids"? > > Tks. Do you know what a BTE is?? It's a "behind the ear" hearing aid obviously used for hearing impairment and NOT for tinnitus. Some hearing challenged people will report a secondary effect of reduced tinnitus as well as improved hearing. So unless you have a confirmed hearing loss, a hearing aid will be of little value to you. There are hundreds of links for hearing aids (bte, ite or in-the-ear)- just google it. A masker type device is for individuals for normal hearing for tinnitus. You're welcome. frank Some hearing challenged > people will report a secondary effect of reduced > tinnitus as well as improved hearing. So unless [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > A masker type device is for individuals for normal > hearing for tinnitus. Well Frank, we're all different I suppose... 'Masking' noises (such as the sound of the fan I've had to put on for the first time today) make my tinnitus far worse. Wearing a 'hearing aid' type device makes it far better. And as far as I know I have otherwise normal hearing. Snip the remainder of what I have to say unless you enjoy (like me) trying to puzzle it out... ----------------------------------- In my case it seems the more the information-content of the incoming sound, the less my tinnitus. The more the 'shash' (noise) level, the more the information content is then submerged, the more my tinnitus. The above, taken with the fact that my tinnitus is heard pretty much the same regardless of the volume of the incoming sound (ie. it can't be 'masked'), but that it can be 'discharged' by sounds of high detail irrespective of volume, and that it slowly increases with the head horizontal, makes me think it's a disorder at the _processing_ end of the hearing system; it's probably in or near the brain and may be conditioned by local blood flow. ----------------------------------- Steve > Some hearing challenged > > people will report a secondary effect of reduced [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > tinnitus far worse. Wearing a 'hearing aid' type device makes it far > better. And as far as I know I have otherwise normal hearing. A hearing aid basically just ampliflies sound- I can't see where it can help for someone who is not hearing impaired with tinnitus. And I have never heard it recommended for anyone with normal hearing. A masker hearing aid, on the other hand,matches the sound of someone's tinnitus. White bacground noise (what you're referring to with your fan) can also be of help to people. frank > A hearing aid basically just ampliflies sound- I can't see where it can > help for someone who is not hearing impaired with tinnitus. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tinnitus. White bacground noise (what you're referring to with your > fan) can also be of help to people. Right, but by amplifying the sound, the hearing aid makes the tinnitus (which it does not amplify) much less noticeable in comparison. What seems to happen then, at least with me, is this: The brain adjusts to the louder information-bearing sound, and assumes it is no louder than the original unamplified sound was before (operating rather like a radio's 'automatic gain control'). Since the tinnitus is now proportionately less significant, it gets lost underneath. The ear/brain system seems to prefer to lock on to information-bearing content rather than system noise. According to this idea, if you give the brain more rich information content to play with, there is then less processing capacity available to waste on processing the noise. Maybe all the above only applies to 'my' sort of central tinnitus though, which seems more likely to be caused by the back-end processing side, rather than front-end hair cell damage. Steve > Right, but by amplifying the sound, the hearing aid makes the tinnitus > (which it does not amplify) much less noticeable in comparison. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 'automatic gain control'). Since the tinnitus is now proportionately less > significant, it gets lost underneath. That's how I understood how basically hearing aid type masking devices work. So Steve, do you have normal hearing and are using a hearing aid? If you do have normal hearing, doesn't the increased sound amp hinder your hearing? How is the tinnitus when you don't use your hearing aid? > The ear/brain system seems to prefer to lock on to information-bearing > content rather than system noise. According to this idea, if you give the > brain more rich information content to play with, there is then less > processing capacity available to waste on processing the noise. But all you're doing is "amping" up the sound level, not changing the content , so to speak. You're not giving the brain, IMO, any more content it's only louder. Just confused how someone with normal hearing is helped w. a normal (non-masking) hearing aid. Regardless,I'm really glad this works for you. Good post. fran > That's how I understood how basically hearing aid type masking devices > work. So Steve, do you have normal hearing and are using a hearing aid? > If you do have normal hearing, doesn't the increased sound amp hinder > your hearing? How is the tinnitus when you don't use your hearing aid? Yes, I have normal hearing. Discounting the interfering effect of the tinnitus, it's actually quite good for my age (54). The amplification I use is only mild, and is peaked around the tinnitus frequency. It thus replaces the tinnitus content with real sound. The tinnitus can't compete. Yes, I expect turning this up too much _would_ irritate my hearing. And I only use this method as a quick fix when the tinnitus is at its worst. The tinnitus remains much better even after I've taken the amp off. Usually a session for an hour or two with the amp will deal with the problem for the rest of the day. I surmise that, once the the tinnitus has been forcibly removed (by the amp) as a focus of attention for the brain, the processing resource previously allocated to listening to the tinnitus is reallocated to listening to real-world sound. It seems to act like a form of TRT. > But all you're doing is "amping" up the sound level, not changing the > content , so to speak. You're not giving the brain, IMO, any more > content > it's only louder. No, I am actually changing the 'content mix': from ['real world sound' + 'tinnitus'] to ['more real world sound' + tinnitus]. The more the 'real world sound', the less noticeable becomes the tinnitus. I'm _not_ amping up both the real world sound _and_ the tinnitus. If that were possible doubtless it wouldn't help. Keep on my tail if I'm still not making myself clear ! ;-) Steve On 5/2/05 2:26 AM, in article 3dma3cF6q7j3mU1@individual.net, "Skycloud" <me@privacy.com> wrote: >> That's how I understood how basically hearing aid type masking devices >> work. So Steve, do you have normal hearing and are using a hearing aid? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Steve You can look at it this way: If you shine a bright light into the eye, the nerve cells are discharged, and for some time you can't see. Having a sound that "discharges" the nerves, now the nerves are "out of ammunition" and the T is "absent". Using a hearing aid for T is an excellent method. I personally do not recommend maskers because of the above scenerio. > On 5/2/05 2:26 AM, in article 3dma3cF6q7j3mU1@individual.net, "Skycloud" > <me@privacy.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Using a hearing aid for T is an excellent method. > I personally do not recommend maskers because of the above scenerio. One would think, Murray, that since Steve and I have normal hearing AND tinnitus our hair cells are functioning normally. I can't write for Steve, but I DO have a speech discrimination problem that arose coincident with the onset of tinnitus. One person can speak softly and I hear that person just fine. If there is an intelligent source of sound in the background (radio/TV) I can't make out what that person is saying. It is as if I've lost my ability to focus on a single sound source. Curiously, unintelligent ambient noise doesn't impact on my ability to understand a single intelligent sound source unless it is very loud, as was the case before the onset of T. > One would think, Murray, that since Steve and I have normal hearing AND > tinnitus our hair cells are functioning normally. I can't write for Steve, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > intelligent sound source unless it is very loud, as was the case before the > onset of T. Very interesting, Bill. I don't share your particular difficulty, but what you say about it suggests to me that your tinnitus could be associated with a deficiency at a quite a deep _processing_ level of the ear/brain system, just as I believe (for other reasons) mine is. What event caused your tinnitus ? Steve <snip> > Very interesting, Bill. I don't share your particular difficulty, but > what [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve Hard to say for certain, Steve. Over my lifetime I abused my ears with power tools, shotguns and rifles but the onset wasn't coincident with abuse nor did it occur anywhere in the recent time frame of abuse as I recall. I was commuting to work one morning when suddenly I heard loud ringing. It's been a few years now but I vaguely remember wondering where in my car the sound was coming from. I have lots of other reasons for believing my tinnitus has nothing to do with hair cells: 1. It makes no sense that the hair cells in both cochleae would fail simultaneously. 2. The ringing is quite variable. At the moment is seems to be just on the left but in a few minutes is might well seem to come from both ears or just from the right. 3. Tinnitus is known to exist after the severing of the auditory nerve and, I believe, it has been reported by people born without a cochlea. 4. I would credit my auditory cortex with handling speech discrimination, not my cochlea. Bill >> > What event caused your tinnitus ? > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > been a few years now but I vaguely remember wondering where in my car the > sound was coming from. Right. I'm also unclear at the exact onset of mine but remember first finding it annoying during a long car journey back from London. When I later went to the ENT he said "have you been firing guns?" because of a distinct dip in the frequency response between 5 and 10K. The only thing I could think of was I had been stamping on packing materials on a concrete floor for fun - and enjoying the loud 'pops' ! > I have lots of other reasons for believing my tinnitus has nothing to do > with hair cells: > 1. It makes no sense that the hair cells in both cochleae would fail > simultaneously. Agreed. My own T is central so this must most likely apply to me too. > 3. Tinnitus is known to exist after the severing of the auditory nerve and, > I believe, it has been reported by people born without a cochlea. I find it curious that totally deaf people without a cochlear could ever recognise they had 'tinnitus' without a prior frame of reference. > 4. I would credit my auditory cortex with handling speech discrimination, > not my cochlea. Yes I suppose with the language processing that's likely. I would imagine there could be successive levels of processing, starting in the cochlear with the basic tone-sifting stuff and the high-level jobs (like extracting meaning, interpreting language, emotional content etc.) dealt with in the brain. I understand the eye does something like this too, with initial processing being done at the retina. Steve On 5/2/05 12:49 PM, in article 3dneimF6uoqduU1@individual.net, "Skycloud" <me@privacy.com> wrote: >> One would think, Murray, that since Steve and I have normal hearing AND >> tinnitus our hair cells are functioning normally. I can't write for [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Sounds like maybe some of your hair cells are out. With an otoacoustic auditory test you can find out. What happens is that you can have a nomal audiogram even if a large % of your cells are out, as long as a % of your cells are present. That might be your situation. Taking antioxidant vitamin formula is a good idea for you. > Very interesting, Bill. I don't share your particular difficulty, but what > you say about it suggests to me that your tinnitus could be associated with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Steve > One would think, Murray, that since Steve and I have normal hearing AND > tinnitus our hair cells are functioning normally. I can't write for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > single intelligent sound source unless it is very loud, as was the case > before the onset of T. Bill, I have seen many people with tinnitus, little or no hearing loss, and otoacoustic emissions (OAE's) showing a reduced population of hair cells. You can have up to a 30% loss of outer hair cells and no hearing loss. HNG On 5/2/05 8:16 PM, in article G3Cde.27$ov6.18@lakeread02, "Howard Gutnick" <bodypride@cox.net> wrote: >> One would think, Murray, that since Steve and I have normal hearing AND >> tinnitus our hair cells are functioning normally. I can't write for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > HNG Looks like Howard and I agree. Howard, I feel that antioxidant formula is very important for such situations because of the possibility that it is the oxidative product build up that is the pathology. "Howard Gutnick" <bodypride@cox.net> wrote in part: >> One would think, Murray, that since Steve and I have normal hearing AND >> tinnitus our hair cells are functioning normally. I can't write for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >HNG "No hearing loss" as measured by what? The perception of speech in a crowd? Pure tone audiometry? It makes a difference!  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > "Howard Gutnick" <bodypride@cox.net> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > It makes a difference! Jim, In audiology, "hearing loss" typically is defined as a change in sensitivity as defined by pure tone thresholds on the audiogram. Word recognition in quiet or in a background of noise, a measure of acuity, is another matter altogether. An person with a normal audiogram but a reduction in outer hair cells typically would have excellent word recognition in quiet. In a background of linguistic noise at even +5 dB S/N, that person would have difficulty, the situation that Bill describes. HNG "Howard Gutnick" <bodypride@cox.net> wrote in part: >> "Howard Gutnick" <bodypride@cox.net> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > >HNG I just wanted to clarify that you are using the audiologic definition. My audiologist says my hearing is normal, and I always laugh. Of course, in principle, one could have every test tone from bottom to top sound like the same white noise and still have perfect hearing according to you guys! ;-) SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > "Jim Chinnis" <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu> wrote in message Jim, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > HNG Thanks, Howard. This certainly is an annoying condition, both for me and for people I try to converse with. At home or in the car I can simply turn the radio or TV off but engaging in a conversation while eating out is very difficult. When there are conversations going on everywhere, someone can look me in eye from a foot away, say something a person looking the other way; someone further away will hear clearly, and I just hear a jumble. Under these circumstances, even saying "what?" and leaning toward the person fails. Still, the audiologist says my hearing is "normal". Your explanation is a perfect fit. Bill On 5/3/05 9:10 AM, in article aoNde.4$t_2.299@news7.onvoy.net, "Bill" > Thanks, Howard. This certainly is an annoying condition, both for me and > for people I try to converse with. At home or in the car I can simply turn [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Some persons have improved on this situation. Its an exercise you can do. Tune in the same news broadcast. Practice reducing the volume to where you need to "focus" to understand the speech. Try 15-20 minutes/ day. Even when you are paying close attention, your mind is still engages thinking about picking up the laundry, paying for the parking, etc etc. When we hook up your brain, lots of other activity is going on besides your paying attention to the speaker. By doing this exercise, you can learn to reduce the side activity and put more brain into the speaker. On 4/29/05 3:00 PM, in article 1114812006.579838.117310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "fyfpoon@hotmail.com" > Where could you find a link to "BTE digital aids"? That just means behind the ears digital aids and every hearing aid manufacturer makes them - Phonac, etc etc. You only need BTE if you need a lot of amplification. Regular aids can work as well depending on your hearing level. |
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