Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / April 2005
Ginkgo Bilboa?
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Darth Jeff - 06 Apr 2005 04:54 GMT A tinnitus "specialist" I went too suggested that Ginkgo Bilboa might help. Anyone know if this is bs or why it may help? I would like some hope---but I dont want to fool myself. On a previous I mentioned my Tinnitus worse after an MRI I receive(while wearing earplugs). I know maybe a couple of times a day getting a quick pulsing burst in one ear. That scares me--I hope it is not getting worse. Just can't take it anymore. Thankyou.
Peter Larsen - 06 Apr 2005 07:27 GMT
> A tinnitus "specialist" I went too suggested that Ginkgo > Bilboa might help. It kinda subtly can reduce perceived tinnitus, the effect will not happen instantly, but rather within a three week period.
> Anyone know if this is bs or why it may help? It is a strong blood thinning agent, and increases capillary bloodflow. The offered explanation is that increased blood supply to the inner ear helps the nerves recover. It may be more likely that it reduces tinnitus simply because the increase in capillary bloodflow is an efficient way to reduce blood pressure.
Gingko Biloba can be problematic in case of surgery or injury as it will increase bleeding from cut or injured tissue and the combination effects of it used in conjunction with other blood thinning or blood vessel expanding agents are poorly known. (Source: local newspapers, about a year ago, reporting some study of its effects.)
It may in my unsskilled opinion be a very useful alternative medication for blood-pressure or blood-flow related ailments, but it should probably be used with the same caution as prescription drugs and with the caveat that actual contraindications are not well known. I did find it helpful for a period some time ago, but thinking back I probably had hypertension already then. Some types of hypertension medication also works by influencing capillary bloodflow (example: Cozaar) and appears to me to have the same mitigating effect on tinnitus and a much worse effect on your wallet.
Tinnitus is a perceived noise that occurs while your hair cells recover from noise exposure to whatever extent they can recover. Modest noise exposures tend to cause instant tinnitus, with severe exposure the onset of the recovery tinnitus can be delayed for several days. Simply said: when you perceive tinnitus the body considers the damage that has occured to the audiotory system at least somewhat repairable.
> I would like some hope---but I dont want to fool myself. Tinnitus recovery is in stages of "three days", "three weeks", "three months" and posibly also "three years". Do not expect something fast to happen. Welcome your tinnitus, it is an indication of ongoing repair work.,
> On a previous I mentioned my Tinnitus worse after an MRI > I receive(while wearing earplugs). Yes, tinnitus once it is there will worsen temporarily in case of noise exposure. Not all noise exposure can be avoided.
> I know maybe a couple of times a day getting a quick pulsing > burst in one ear. That scares me Your attitude is more broken than your ears, fix your attitude. You should be concerned in case of tinnitus, but not scared. Leave scared for the period between noise exposure and tinnitus, I was scared when it took three days for tinnitus to occur after a severe left ear noise exposure, and audiograms later confirmed that being scared was proper and timely, and I was glad when tinnitus finally started after that event.
> I hope it is not getting worse. You will have tinnitus for quite some time to come if it has not subsided within 3 weeks after a noise exposure. It will not be constant, some days will be good, some will be bad, sometimes for reasons known and sometimes for no apparent reason. Go to some acoustic, unamplified concerts, chamber music or similar, and enjoy listening, enjoy what you can hear and get psychologically acustomed to the short time increase of tinnitus that you will get - not may get, but will get - from the applause. What you yourself can do is to get better at using your listening capability, and listening to the pleasant sounds of real musical instruments is a good way to practice listening. And music is good for the soul.
> Just can't take it anymore. As many here I can say: bin there, not a nice place to be. Adjust your attitude and move on. Fix your attitude and your perceived tinnitus will be less of a concern and quite probably subside faster because of just that. Take care to avoid a stress related build up of neck tensions .... one participant here feels that such are the real cause of tinnitus, not noise exposure, there is certainly not general agreement on that, but it is in my experience correct that annoyance from tinnitus can cause neck tensions that cause neck pain.
All of the above constitutes unskilled personal opinion, not "medical fact", whatever that may be.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
 Signature ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * *******************************************
Darth Jeff - 07 Apr 2005 00:52 GMT I dont understand: you say Tinnitus is due to your ears healing? I have never heard that before.
Skycloud - 07 Apr 2005 09:56 GMT >Welcome your tinnitus, it is an indication of ongoing repair > work., Isn't this analogous to saying "Welcome the pain from your wound, it is an indication of ongoing repair work" ?
Fine, but I would rather welcome the 'repair work' and treat the accompanying pain.
> Go to some acoustic, unamplified > concerts, chamber music or similar, and enjoy listening, enjoy what you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > listening capability, and listening to the pleasant sounds of real > musical instruments is a good way to practice listening. Unfortunately in my case, listening to music I really enjoy seems to increase the auditory processing activity, and with it my tinnitus.
And music is
> good for the soul. Now with _that_ I agree wholeheartedly ! :-)
> All of the above constitutes unskilled personal opinion, not "medical > fact", whatever that may be. And the above applies _very much_ to all my opinions on the subject too...
Steve O
Skycloud - 06 Apr 2005 12:08 GMT > A tinnitus "specialist" I went too suggested that Ginkgo Bilboa might > help. Anyone know if this is bs or why it may help? I would like some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That scares me--I hope it is not getting worse. Just can't take it > anymore. Thankyou. Darth I took GB for quite a while until I was warned off it by one of the more experienced group members here. Like all-things-tinnitus, it was hard to definitely decide whether GB was really helping or not. But I was starting to get a tendency for minor nose-bleeds and this could have been a danger sign of worse to come.
So I then switched to low-dose aspirin, thinking this might be safer but have the same blood-thinning effect. Nose bleeds stopped. Anyway, I've now cut this down further, to one eighth of a tablet (37mg) a day and plan to gradually come off it. I found low-dose Aspirin at least as good or better than Ginkgo Biloba at doing the job.
Steve O
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 06 Apr 2005 17:49 GMT It depends on the individual's reaction. I have been taking gingko for almost a year now and I have not discovered any bleeding from nose or whatever. The gingko pills I take are made from natural leafs rather than extracts. Gingko biloba helped to transform my ring from the centre of the head to the ringing in the drum. That releases quite a bit of annoyance.
FP
Peter Larsen - 06 Apr 2005 21:39 GMT
> It depends on the individual's reaction. I have been taking > gingko for almost a year now and I have not discovered any > bleeding from nose or whatever. It is quite possible that the suggested dosage on various over the counter Gingko Biloba products are based on the wishes of a sales department .... O;-)
> The gingko pills I take are made from natural leafs rather > than extracts. I have tried such capsules, just one a day - a third of what the text on the package suggested - and found them more helpful than tablets containing "pure extract".
> Gingko biloba helped to transform my ring from the > centre of the head to the ringing in the drum. That > releases quite a bit of annoyance. My experience then was one of tinnitus bouncing back some three weeks after stopping taking it. I think it is a very good idea to not ingest it constantly. My personal opinion, unskilled as it is, ended up being that it was probably of some value to take a modest supplement for the first weeks of recovery after noise exposure.
Ginkbo Biloba side effects should not be taken lightly, as I recall press coverage there is a direct warning against ingesting it for quite some time before major surgery. It is a potent and possibly poorly understood medication with some benefits and some severe caveat's and some poorly defined contraindications. (CAVEAT == beware, take caution, risk involved; contraindications == reasons to not use the medication in specified contexts)
> FP Kind regards
Peter Larsen
 Signature ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * *******************************************
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 06 Apr 2005 23:13 GMT You wrote:"My personal opinion, unskilled as it is, ended up being that it was probably of some value to take a modest supplement for the first weeks of recovery after noise exposure"
I have thick blood problem and so I would not mind taking one a day for many years to come. I would prefer it to aspirin.
FP
Elly Byrne - 07 Apr 2005 21:44 GMT >I have thick blood problem and so I would not mind taking one a day for >many years to come. I would prefer it to aspirin. I would love to hear an explanation of how blood can be thinned. Or how one can have thick blood.
The only thing I can imagine is to drink lots of water.
Otherwise it is a physical impossibility, unless something different is going on.
Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/
Bill - 07 Apr 2005 22:57 GMT >>I have thick blood problem and so I would not mind taking one a day for >>many years to come. I would prefer it to aspirin. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Otherwise it is a physical impossibility, unless something different > is going on. I have mine thinned about twice a year. We O negs are really in demand. They take two units, remove the thick, heavy stuff, and pump it back in. Got my 5 gallon medallion about a month ago.
Ben - 07 Apr 2005 23:10 GMT I thought Aspirin was a well-known blood thinner? Good for the heart and clots, and all that.
Ben
> >I have thick blood problem and so I would not mind taking one a day for > >many years to come. I would prefer it to aspirin. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Otherwise it is a physical impossibility, unless something different > is going on. drfrank21@gmail.com - 08 Apr 2005 00:32 GMT > >I have thick blood problem and so I would not mind taking one a day for > >many years to come. I would prefer it to aspirin. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Elly's Tinnitus Resources > http://eebee.net/ Elly, Blood thinners are in a class of medications called anti-coagulants. It's really a misnomer that,although they are called blood thinners, these medicines don't really thin your blood. Instead, they decrease the blood's ability to clot. Decreased clotting keeps fewer harmful blood clots from forming and from blocking blood vessels.
frank
Elly Byrne - 08 Apr 2005 21:11 GMT That certainly makes a lot more sense. Thanks Frank.
Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/
>> >I have thick blood problem and so I would not mind taking one a day >for [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >frank Susan - 08 Apr 2005 01:48 GMT >>I have thick blood problem and so I would not mind taking one a day for >>many years to come. I would prefer it to aspirin. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Elly's Tinnitus Resources > http://eebee.net/ They should really be called blood unstickers. Blood thinners are anti-thrombotics that prevent clotting. Along with aspirin, ginkgo, you can include vitamin E, garlic, and fish oil supplements. Blood cells become less sticky and less likely to clot, slipping through vessels much more easily. Drinking lots of water is a good idea, too.
Susan
Peter Larsen - 24 Apr 2005 18:11 GMT
> You wrote:"My personal opinion, unskilled as it is, ended up being > that it was probably of some value to take a modest supplement for the > first weeks of recovery after noise exposure"
> I have thick blood problem and so I would not mind taking one a day for > many years to come. I would prefer it to aspirin. Aspirin is not an anticoagulant, Gingko Biloba is.
> FP Kind regards
Peter Larsen
 Signature ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * *******************************************
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 24 Apr 2005 22:32 GMT What do you mean? It has been my impression that being anticoagulent means the prevention of blood clotting. Aspirin is a blood thinner and thus prevents blood clotting. No?
Tks.,
FP
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 09 Apr 2005 19:31 GMT snipped...
> My experience then was one of tinnitus bouncing back some three weeks > after stopping taking it. I think it is a very good idea to not ingest > it constantly. My personal opinion, unskilled as it is, ended up being > that it was probably of some value to take a modest supplement for the > first weeks of recovery after noise exposure. Has your t recovered yet? If it had not, why stop taking GB? You could take a smaller doze or just one a day or even 1/2 of a tablet a day for a long time. According to the explanation by a TCM doctor that I talked to, GB helped increase the blood circulation of the kidney, which bears a close relationship to our cochlea. I usually take it empty stomach in the morning. And my t is improving! I know a girl here in Vancouver who got t. After taking GB for about a month, her t sort of disappeared.
FP ======================
> Ginkbo Biloba side effects should not be taken lightly, as I recall > press coverage there is a direct warning against ingesting it for quite [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * > ******************************************* Darth Jeff - 10 Apr 2005 04:24 GMT Hmmm....that is interesting. I have not yet started taking GB yet. But I think I am going to give it a shot!
Bill - 10 Apr 2005 04:26 GMT > Hmmm....that is interesting. I have not yet started taking GB yet. But > I think I am going to give it a shot! I'll set my bottle on the fence post near the end of my driveway. You can shoot it.
Peter Larsen - 24 Apr 2005 18:22 GMT > Has your t recovered yet? If it had not, why stop taking GB? The main reason is that I take Cozaar against hypertension, it reduces blood pressure by preventing the small blood vessels from contracting. I appears strongly unwise to combine that with another medication that has a similar effect.
> You could take a smaller doze If I could get the capsules with - I think - pulverized bark I might.
There is another strong contraindication, I had some minor finger and arm surgery while taking Gingko Biloba and experienced heavy bleeding through the bandages, not a major issue as this was about small wounds. It was a surprise to me and an obvious suprise to the hospital. It was also completely explained by Gingko Biloba being an anti-vitamin K agent, ie. an anticoagulant.
> I usually take it empty stomach in the morning. And my t is > improving! Great to hear as it is obviously a major issue for you.
> I know a girl here in Vancouver who got t. After taking GB > for about a month, her t sort of disappeared. I do not disagree in this effect, and if it was not for the Cozaar I might try a low dosage of Gingko Biloba, my errand here in this context is to make the point that there can be strong contraindications and that there are caveats to be aware of.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
 Signature ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * *******************************************
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 24 Apr 2005 22:44 GMT Since your t responds to gingko biloba, it may suggests, amongst other things, you might have a certain degree of kidney deficiency. At least that is the explanation of tinnitus by the TCM doctors. The latter have been of the view, for the past thousands of years, that *some* kinds of tinnitus are closely connected with the relationship between cochlea and kidney. Some modern doctors do have discovered that relationship: http://www.boystownhospital.org/parents/info/genetics/ears.asp
Thus you may want to explore other herbs that do have the same impact on the kidney as gingko but without the anticoagulent effect.
FP
Bill - 25 Apr 2005 01:20 GMT > Since your t responds to gingko biloba, it may suggests, amongst other > things, you might have a certain degree of kidney deficiency. At least [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > FP Kidney beans, perhaps?
Susan - 25 Apr 2005 02:55 GMT >>Thus you may want to explore other herbs that do have the same impact >>on the kidney as gingko but without the anticoagulent effect. >> >>FP > > Kidney beans, perhaps? ROFLMAO!!
Susan
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 25 Apr 2005 17:53 GMT Bill, black beans are very good for the kidney. Of course, you can't expect results after having had just one spoonful. You have a foul month like that of the 'trash' people in Harlem, for which there is no cure at all.
Bill - 25 Apr 2005 19:48 GMT > Bill, black beans are very good for the kidney. Of course, you can't > expect results after having had just one spoonful. You have a foul > month like that of the 'trash' people in Harlem, for which there is no > cure at all. I very much enjoy black beans Mr. Poon. In fact, my favorite soup is the black bean served at TGIF Fridays. Beans are considered by some nutritionists as the perfect food. There is, however, no credible evidence that the consumption of beans, black or otherwise, has any effect on tinnitus. In all the years I've monitored this group, you are the only person to submit this anecdotal finding.
I'm sorry that you read my statement "Kidney beans, Perhaps?" as vulgar, and to learn that you are a racist.
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 25 Apr 2005 20:16 GMT I am a class-oriented person, not a racist. What sort of credible evidence are you talking about? All you could do in terms of gathering evidence is from search engineers of the English speaking world. You have not found enough evidence that black beans are good for the kidney. Have you? And you have not found any link between kidney and cochlea. Have you?
Bill - 25 Apr 2005 20:48 GMT >I am a class-oriented person, not a racist. What sort of credible > evidence are you talking about? All you could do in terms of gathering > evidence is from search engineers of the English speaking world. You > have not found enough evidence that black beans are good for the > kidney. Have you? And you have not found any link between kidney and > cochlea. Have you? I live in the United States, Francis, and we don't formally recognize social classes. Yes, we do recognize economic classes but these tend to intermingle socially and the boundaries are blurred.
From the perspective of someone who lives in the United States and speaks English, your description of "Kidney beans, perhaps?" as foul (meaning vulgar) makes no sense and the derogatory remark that followed would be construed my most as racist. Your defense that you are a "class-oriented person" further denigrates those who live in Harlem and speaks to your character, not theirs.
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 26 Apr 2005 18:23 GMT Bill,
Your tongue is reminiscient of those who urinate by the street of Harlem. They are not necessarily black.
Susan - 26 Apr 2005 19:25 GMT > Bill, > > Your tongue is reminiscient of those who urinate by the street of > Harlem. They are not necessarily black. People urinate in streets all over the world.
Your choice of Harlem is racist.
Susan
Peter Larsen - 27 Apr 2005 03:06 GMT > Your choice of Harlem is racist. As seen from abroad that word should be used with greater caution, I didn't bother to read what Francis posted later in this thread, but he was not the initiater of this debacle, it started with someone having an understanding of what was humorous that might not be universally shared.
Let us get back to what this was about, ie. Bill trying to be funny but writing so that it was most likely to be read as ridiculing a well meant suggestion made by Francis.
Bill obviously feel that no ill meaning was intended, and you seem to support him. However what was intended as a joke was understood as ill-meant, and usually the way to address that is to apologize when in an international forum, and that is what this is. You may well feel that Francis was too easily offendable and didn't distance himself enough from his own angle of view to see the grotesque humorous aspect of it, but you can not consider that kind of touchyness ill placed in a .support. newsgroup.
As for Bills claim that the US of A is "classless" that claim could be contestable - you do have streetgangs in the US, and those are a synmptom of some kind of problem with the social structure - but this is not the forum for that debate. I can see that it was probably unintentinally that Francis ended up insulted and angry, but the way to conclude this is imo for Bill to apologize for expressing his sense of humor in a misunderstandable way.
> Susan Kind regards
Peter Larsen
 Signature ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * *******************************************
Bill - 27 Apr 2005 04:26 GMT >> Your choice of Harlem is racist. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Peter Larsen You are certainly entitled to your opinion, Peter, but the sub-topic was treating the kidneys to alleviate tinnitus symptoms. It was Francis, not me (Bill) who first brought up the importance (from his perspective) of treating the kidneys with black beans. Perhaps that was a joke, but I think Francis was serious. My question "Kidney beans, perhaps?" was in historical perspective. I didn't call Francis any names and I certainly didn't engage in racial slurs. Yes, Francis displayed unfortunate outrage, but he set the stage. In any case, I'm glad you were amused.
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 27 Apr 2005 19:10 GMT Of course I am serious about using black beans over _long term_ to strengthen the kidney, which in turn helps out tinnitus as the kidney bears a close relationship with the cochea.
Susan - 27 Apr 2005 13:42 GMT >>Your choice of Harlem is racist. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > humor in a misunderstandable way. > Peter, I appreciate the thought you put into your post.
If you detected some edge in Bill's responses to Francis, it's due to a very long history of insults against all Americans, some of us personally, and incessant demands that rise to the level of harassment and trolling.
If you were to respond that the best response to Francis is no response at all or to kill file him, I'd have to agree, but sometimes folks have moments.
I don't know how long you've been reading ast, but there's way more to consider than recent posting history in evaluating the contributions of the participants to conflict.
Susan
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 27 Apr 2005 20:20 GMT Susan wrote:"If you detected some edge in Bill's responses to Francis, it's due to a very long history of insults against all Americans, some of us personally,..."
Typical use of collectivism or of 'others' to foster one's view.
Susan - 27 Apr 2005 21:31 GMT > Susan wrote:"If you detected some edge in Bill's responses to Francis, > it's due to a > very long history of insults against all Americans, some of us > personally,..." > > Typical use of collectivism or of 'others' to foster one's view. You're the one who grouped us all together with your insults targeting all Americans.
Susan
Bill - 27 Apr 2005 21:53 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > You're the one who grouped us all together with your insults targeting all > Americans. > > Susan Susan, you might better understand Francis if you google the groups with this requested search: "francis poon class" quotes not-with-standing.
Susan - 27 Apr 2005 22:00 GMT >>x-no-archive: yes >>You're the one who grouped us all together with your insults targeting all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Susan, you might better understand Francis if you google the groups with > this requested search: "francis poon class" quotes not-with-standing. YOW. He's obsessed with Hollywood images and characters. And very busy, too.
I wish my Thunderbird kill files were more reliable.
Susan
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 28 Apr 2005 18:22 GMT I don't even know that you are an American. I thought you to be a Mongolian.
Peter Larsen - 29 Apr 2005 02:40 GMT
> I don't even know that you are an American. I thought you > to be a Mongolian. It can be wise to occasionally take a break from the usenet if it gets too important and if it gets too difficult to see the other sides viewpoints in a debate.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
 Signature ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * *******************************************
Peter Larsen - 29 Apr 2005 02:37 GMT > If you detected some edge in Bill's responses to Francis, > it's due to a very long history of insults ... Hmm, yes, Francis has made your point.
> I don't know how long you've been reading ast, Occasionally for some years. Thank you for your comments.
> Susan Kind regards
Peter Larsen
 Signature ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * *******************************************
Bill - 26 Apr 2005 19:57 GMT > Bill, > > Your tongue is reminiscient of those who urinate by the street of > Harlem. They are not necessarily black. Incapable of rational debate, Francis stoops to vulgar insult. This, fellow tinnitus sufferers, is the same person who recommends tinnitus be treated with black beans, hyperbaric infusions of herbs, ginkgo, acupuncture and by "lowering your pillow". I'm not going to engage him further. If anyone here wants help habituating their tinnitus, there are a dozen here who succeeded at this and are willing to help. Just ask.
fyfpoon@hotmail.com - 28 Apr 2005 20:04 GMT Bill wrote:" This, fellow tinnitus sufferers, is the same person who recommends tinnitus be treated with black beans, hyperbaric infusions of herbs, ginkgo, acupuncture and by "lowering your pillow". I'm not going to engage him further."
Who recommends you to engage FP? You did it out of your own initiative. FP has *personally* tried all the methods he describes and recommends, while you just open up your month without knowing how to close it.
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