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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / March 2005Laser therapy
Does anybody knows or have had any experience with laser therapy for tinnitus? I have heard about it, but is it really effective? I am suffering tinnitus since last february as a consequence (I think) of an antibiotic I took for a pharyngitis. Regards A. "AiMiA" <silaquieres@melapides.com> wrote in part: >Does anybody knows or have had any experience with laser therapy for tinnitus? I >have heard about it, but is it really effective? No.  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG So far, NO. But see if you can relate to anything on this page. http://eebee.net/TinnitusIsaPainintheNeck.shtml Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >Does anybody knows or have had any experience with laser therapy for tinnitus? I >have heard about it, but is it really effective? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Regards >A. Yes, it may be effective. Some people say it is, Jim, people who have tried it say this. Not everyone, but some. Perhaps there is a type of T that does respond to lasers. Perhaps the type that originates in the middle ear space, where this beam can most easily strike. I would say, MAYBE, not no. >Yes, it may be effective. Some people say it is, Jim, people who have tried >it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I would say, MAYBE, not no. That's interesting, I haven't heard it stated before. Marsha, are there any good studies of it yet? Susan Sue, I am not a huge fan of big studies. As we know, many researchers are quite biased and the human body and spirit are simply too complex to treat as a neural tube worm or something. Now having said that, I would hesitate to suggest, for example, that we stop doing big studies or stop funding research. It just seems to me that tinnitus is a slippery animals with many spots and that there are many ways to address it and one method simply doesn't work for everyone so we must offer a handful of treatments and see what works best. Look at this board: in the past 8 years, we have had many people try many treatments, some found success, others didn't, yet we just share what we find. I do not know if laser has enjoyed any studies yet. Look at the neuro monics group, they are advertising and training people in Australia and offering treatment for five or six thousand dollars, look at Shemesh in Israel, look at Shea in Tennesee, they all are out there providing treatment and some folks would swear by their methods but none to date has conducted any big studies. At least TRT has Jim Henry and Rich Tyler and some other researchers who have done some long term studies and said, well, it seems to help, yes, and so does masking, or counseling........ Which proves my point. Tinnitus work is like a deck of cards: the competent clinician will have a whole hand full of options for patients so they can pick and choose........... Which is why I am not going to disavow any treatments until it is really clear they do not help anyone at all........like eating grape jelly or something. Marsha Johnson, MS oregon7@aol.com (Oregon7) wrote in part: >I do not know if laser has enjoyed any studies yet. At least one clearly negative one. >Look at the neuro monics >group, they are advertising and training people in Australia and offering >treatment for five or six thousand dollars They have studies in support of their approach. > look at Shemesh in Israel, Nothing there. > look at >Shea in Tennesee, Ditto. > they all are out there providing treatment and some folks >would swear by their methods but none to date has conducted any big studies. >At least TRT has Jim Henry and Rich Tyler and some other researchers who have >done some long term studies and said, well, it seems to help, yes, and so does >masking, or counseling........ Tyler can't conclude that TRT (or counseling or masking) helps, since there's no control group to compare with. But Henry's work is quite promising, i think. >Which proves my point. Tinnitus work is like a deck of cards: the competent >clinician will have a whole hand full of options for patients so they can pick >and choose........... > >Which is why I am not going to disavow any treatments until it is really clear >they do not help anyone at all........like eating grape jelly or something. Then you certainly have billions of treatments to provide. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >At least one clearly negative one. And at least two with similar findings of 50-58% of patients reporting measurable improvements, if I read it correctly. It's a "maybe." Too soon to suggest anyone should go for it, IMHO. But it's clearly not a "no." Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Susan I've reviewed them and come up with a resounding, "NO." SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >I've reviewed them and come up with a resounding, "NO." Okey, dokey. What were the problems with the more positive ones? Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Susan I don't remember. I only remember my conclusion. I don't get paid for this, after all. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >I don't remember. I only remember my conclusion. > >I don't get paid for this, after all. Gee, thanks anyway, Pollyanna! Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Susan Tell you what...give me a cite to any study you think relates to laser treatment of tinnitus and I'll do my best to give my honest evaluation. I gave an honest response: I remember only my conclusion. On the other hand, my views may not be worth anything. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >Tell you what...give me a cite to any study you think relates to laser >treatment of tinnitus and I'll do my best to give my honest evaluation. I >gave >an honest response: I remember only my conclusion. I assumed your honesty, though your one word conclusion was less than fully informative 1: Acta Otolaryngol Suppl. 2001;545:92-3. Related Articles, Links Combined laser-EGb 761 tinnitus therapy. Hahn A, Sejna I, Stolbova K, Cocek A. ENT Clinic, 3rd Medical Faculty, Charles University Prague, Prague, Czech Republic. The treatment of patients with chronic tinnitus is very problematic and therefore otologists are trying to discover more suitable courses of therapy. In this study we wanted to evaluate the outcome of using a combination of EGb 761 and soft laser therapy. We examined 120 patients with an average duration of tinnitus of 10 years. The patients underwent pure-tone audiometry, speech audiometry and objective audiometry tests. The intensity and frequency of tinnitus was also determined. EGb 761 was administered 3 weeks before starting soft laser therapy. Patients underwent 10 sessions of laser therapy, each lasting for 10 min. An improvement in tinnitus was audiometrically confirmed in 50.8% of patients: 10 dB in 18; 20 dB in 22; 30 dB in 10; 40 dB in 6; and 50 dB in 5. PMID: 11677752 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Auris Nasus Larynx. 1997;24(1):39-42. Related Articles, Links Efficacy of transmeatal low power laser irradiation on tinnitus: a preliminary report. Shiomi Y, Takahashi H, Honjo I, Kojima H, Naito Y, Fujiki N. Department of Otolaryngology, Faculty of Medicine, Kyoto University, Japan. Thirty-eight patients suffering from tinnitus resistant to several medical therapies for more than 6 months were treated by low power laser irradiation. A 40 mW laser with a wavelength of 830 nm was irradiated via their external auditory meatus toward the cochlea for 9 min once a week, 10 times or more. Patients were asked to score their symptoms on a 5 point scale before and after the treatment for a subjective evaluation of the effect. The results were estimated by the change of the loudness and duration of tinnitus, and the degree of annoyance due to tinnitus. Although only 26% of the patients had improved duration, loudness and degree of annoyance were relieved in up to 58 and 55%, respectively, without major complication. Laser therapy seemed to be worth trying on patients with intractable tinnitus. PMID: 9148726 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ There were also abstracts of studies finding no benefit, as I mentioned earlier. >On the other hand, my views may not be worth anything. Yeah, well, that'd occurred to me, too. ;-P Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >50.8% of patients: 10 dB in 18; 20 dB in 22; 30 dB in 10; 40 dB in 6; and 50 dB >in 5. One obviously can't conclude anything at all about laser therapy here, since two treatments were applied simultaneously! Ignoring that, the fact that 50.8% of patients matched their tinnitus to softer sounds...well...is probably a very minor random variation in the testing procedure. No control group was used, so no conclusion can be drawn. >PMID: 11677752 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] >1: Auris Nasus Larynx. 1997;24(1):39-42. Related Articles, Links [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >and 55%, respectively, without major complication. Laser therapy seemed to be >worth trying on patients with intractable tinnitus. Well...no way to assess the effect, since no control group was used for comparison. I'm sure the investigators had fun, though. >PMID: 9148726 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Yeah, well, that'd occurred to me, too. ;-P OK with me. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG My take on laser Rx for Tinnitus is it is one thing to try hyperbaric oxygen. There is good evidence that it is safe for the ear and the physiology is there too. But who knows what effect a laser directed to the ear will do?? I sure don't . And the theory behing using it is scary too. I know that everyone is anxious for a cure but being the first kid on the block for this .... I mean, Laser is basically something you cook with . OK so its fancy, but .... Put it another way... the inner ear is so utterly delicate that ANY disruption and you can end up deaf. We even get hearing damage when we surgically drill the bones of the ear and that's with the very best technique that we have used for 100 years. As has been pointed out here, miracle cures are announced every 6 weeks and forgotten in about the same time. With any dramatic treatment the placebo effect is HUGE. I was using an IV treatment that seemed to give good results. Then one day a nurse made a mistake and gave 1/10th the ordered dose. Patient was cured of his tinnitus - he said. But that made me question the overall value of this treatment. Not to be discouraging, but the first principle of medicine is to do no harm. But in Tinnitus we are dealing with dozens of etiolgies, none of which we can prove, and obvioiusly one Rx doesn't fit all. In addition we are dealing with something we can't objectify, maeasure, analyse, etc. And in the end, EERIE WaX has certain advantages. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com >Not to be discouraging, but the first principle of medicine is to do no harm. >But in Tinnitus we are dealing with dozens of etiolgies, none of which we can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Murray Grossan, M.D. >http://www.ent-consult.com Dr. Grossan: I'm not sure if you've gotten to try our all new EERIE HOT WAX -- it will definitely burn your socks off (along with a few other possible things) -- it's still in Beta test but coupled with our original 300 proof formula (150% alcohol), it's no secret why we're still an all-time party favorite. Now, let's see -- if we mix in a little hypobaric oxygen along with some fresh Bora Bora root ... Ciao-4-now, Bob D. Long Island, NY bdimarco@optonline.net Bob shame on you. You know you aren't supposed to use this newsgroups to ADVERTISE your EERIE WAX product, even though it is the favorite of persons who own your company, even though it has won approval of some of your neighbors and even though it is guranteed. What is that guarantee again? to be as good as any placebo? Do you still retun the money if they come in person to your distribution point in " Killer Wolf Haven" Canada? Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com >Bob shame on you. >You know you aren't supposed to use this newsgroups to ADVERTISE your EERIE WAX [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Murray Grossan, M.D. >http://www.ent-consult.com Doctor: As Bruce says at the end of all our infomercials: "EERIE WAX -- NOTHING is better !!! " . Ciao-4-now, Bob D. Long Island, NY bdimarco@optonline.net >As Bruce says at the end of all our infomercials: >"EERIE WAX -- NOTHING is better !!! " . I had never noticed that before. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ Just remember, EERIE WAX comes with a guarantee! Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com Which treatment is best? Look at breast and colon cancer. The arguments rage endlessly and still no ""final answer" and little consensus as to what is best. and here they are dealling with OBJECTIVE DISEASE. So we shouldn't be that critical of tinnitus studies. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com x-n-archive: yes >Sue, I am not a huge fan of big studies. As we know, many researchers are >quite biased and the human body and spirit are simply too complex to treat as >a >neural tube worm or something. I'm a total skeptic about researcher influence and bias, but the bigger the studies, the better off we are. Frankly, it's the only credible way we have of evaluating and/or confirming what anecdotes suggest may be true. We're not too complex too study, we're too complex to rely completely on subjective data. Especially where profiteers may be involved. > Now having said that, I would hesitate to >suggest, for example, that we stop doing big studies or stop funding >research. Hoo, boy, that's a relief! :-) >It just seems to me that tinnitus is a slippery animals with many spots and >that there are many ways to address it and one method simply doesn't work for >everyone so we must offer a handful of treatments and see what works best. Sure, but before we offer any expensive ones that may be damaging, we must have studies, don't you agree? >Look at this board: in the past 8 years, we have had many people try many >treatments, some found success, others didn't, yet we just share what we >find. I'm all for that. But we can't rely on anecdotes to guide us to which potentially dangerous and expensive treatments we should try. >I do not know if laser has enjoyed any studies yet. Look at the neuro monics >group, they are advertising and training people in Australia and offering >treatment for five or six thousand dollars, look at Shemesh in Israel, look >at >Shea in Tennesee, they all are out there providing treatment and some folks >would swear by their methods but none to date has conducted any big studies. How can we look at Shemesh??? He won't even say what's in the pills he gives his patients?! He seemed to have someone blatantly recruiting desperate patients from this group! I'm kind of shocked that as a hearing professiona you're not aware of the laser studies for tinnitus. As it turns out, there have been a number of them, with very conflicting results. I agree with you that the answer is "maybe" rather than "no" but only because I did some research on it. >At least TRT has Jim Henry and Rich Tyler and some other researchers who have >done some long term studies and said, well, it seems to help, yes, and so >does >masking, or counseling........ What are you calling "long term?" You seem to suggest that we trust the studies you do, and not even seek study validation in other cases. >Which proves my point. Tinnitus work is like a deck of cards: the competent >clinician will have a whole hand full of options for patients so they can >pick >and choose........... I thought your point was that we can't rely on studies. Now you're saying a Tinnitus specialist should rely on the studies you've cited for having cards in her hand. I'm confused by your post. >Which is why I am not going to disavow any treatments until it is really >clear >they do not help anyone at all........like eating grape jelly or something. I think this is backwards. I think it's very wrong to suggest to anyone that maybe expensive, potentially damaging laser therapy will help him when you aren't even familiar with any of the research findings. Susan > I think it's very wrong to suggest to anyone that >maybe expensive, potentially damaging laser therapy will help him when you >aren't even familiar with any of the research findings. Wow, did I catch you on a bad day? I said there were no big studies on laser that I am aware of. I actually have been asked to allow a laser specialist to come to my clinic and conduct another study this summer. I cannot possibly share all I know here with a few sentences. I started out to call Jim's attention to the idea that 'some' have been helped. Not all. There isn't such a treatment that I know of.....do you? I am also a big believer in using my own two eyes and ears to support my clinical outcomes. I don't necessarily think lasers are more dangerous than some of the other methods so easily used with tinintus patients, such as high doses of steroids or long term medications that affect the entire body. And, yes, I think a 3 year study is pretty long compared to the fact TRT has been around since 1985. Sorry if I pushed your buttons. Sounds like a lot of reaction that has its roots in other experiences to me. I have found, in seven years, that each person may respond differently to treatment approaches and it is part of my job to help the person find the best approach for him or her. MJ >Wow, did I catch you on a bad day? No, as a matter of fact, I was wondering the same about you. In the past, I've found your posts to be informative and helpful. Saying that you're not aware of studies in your field, and that they're not much use anyway strikes me as unhelpful. As to the dangers of laser, it's powerful, and potentially damaging, just like steroids are. Not to be considered without convincing proof of benefit, same as steroids in my view. I haven't got any hot buttons you've pushed, Marsha, and my day was going just fine. I just like to see citations for claims and/or recommendations. Susan I'm an optical engineer, and I also follow the sci.optics newsgroup. A while back, there was a posting on the alt.support.tinnitus newsgroup about a french laser device for curing T. So I posted on sci.optics to see what optics professionals said. You can read the results for yourself; go to sci.optics & look for "Soft Laser & Tinnitus", posted 2/12/2005. > Does anybody knows or have had any experience with laser therapy for > tinnitus? I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Regards > A.
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