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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / December 2004Manganese & T
This web page http://www.upnaway.com/~poliowa/Mn%20for%20Tinnitus.htm states "So many people have reported getting rid of tinnitus altogether when on manganese and getting it back when they have stopped taking it.(If the tinnitus has been for a long time or is severe, you may lessen it but not get rid of it completely as permanent damage has occurred. Usually tinnitus needs 600mg daily to make a difference.If you have twinges or pain in any joints, stiff or wry neck, droopy eyelids, hearing loss, clumsiness, carpel tunnel or tennis elbow, torn or pulled tendons, you may need to take more.(up to 1200mg for tendon injuries.) " So I bought some Chelated Manganese tablets, They're 50 mg, so getting 600 mg means twelve pills a day. The bottle label says that one 50 mg pill is 2,500% of the RDA. Twelve pills is 30,000 times the RDA; seems like a lot. Now the questions: 1. Does anyone have experience with T & manganese? 2. Is 600 mg a safe dose? Thanks, Nelson >This web page >http://www.upnaway.com/~poliowa/Mn%20for%20Tinnitus.htm [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >1. Does anyone have experience with T & manganese? >2. Is 600 mg a safe dose? I don't know what the threshhold is, but here's a page of research demonstrating why you wouldn't want to cross it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed Susan I would want to make damn sure that this is a safe dose before being experimented on. Where do you get your medical information from - the advertisements or from reputable medical journals. Do you really feel that the people who sell on the web know more than the people who publish in medical journals.? I'll bet you wouldn't put Zoom Oil Cleaner in your car without checking it out to make sure it wouldn't hurt your car, at least give your own body the same consideration. Any chemical or herb in excess can be harmfull and the harm can be irreversable. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com >I would want to make damn sure that this is a safe dose before being >experimented on. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Any chemical or herb in excess can be harmfull and the harm can be >irreversable. I agree, but to be fair, Murray, he asked if it were safe, he didn't say he was going to take it unresearched. He said it sounded awfully high. As to promotional websites vs. medical journals, I think it's simply a matter of disclosed, rather than undisclosed profit motives, all too often. Caveat emptor: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-nih22dec22,0,2924170, print.story?coll=la-home-headlines Susan This is getting interesting. Helps to distract from the ringing in my ears. So far no one champions manganese; let's see how that plays out. I'll listen to anything that might help my T, but I use caution with advice from the internet. Like dosages. Don't worry, Murray. Here's some interesting material on Tinnitus from the Life Extension web site: http://search.lef.org/src-cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=68&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFin d%2Ecfg&host_id=42&page_id=14352384&query=tinnitus&hiword=tinnitus+ "Magnesium People in large cities are exposed to potentially damaging loud noises on a daily basis. Studies have shown that noise exposure causes magnesium to be excreted from the body (Mocci et al. 2001). It is possible that supplementing with magnesium could reduce noise-induced ear damage and thus reduce the likelihood of new-onset tinnitus. Few studies document that magnesium relieves tinnitus symptoms, but many patients have experienced relief by using magnesium (Attias et al. 1994)." I'd like to see if the Attias article is legit. And how many is "many". And what happened later, ... > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Susan The article says that XYZ helped tinnitus. Unfortuantely we are dealling with a symptom that can't be measured. The X ray shows a fractured finger. Great! Now we can study the therapy. The X ray is negative and the finger hurts. Tough! How do you evaluate therapy now? I have read dozens of studies re XYZ helped tinnitus. a. no one measured tinnitus b no one measured any of the ear functions c no one DEFINED tinnitus - jaw crackling? blood flow? spasm of the muscles? d. What was the response outside the doctor's office where the patient seeks to please the nice doctor? e. In pain and tinnitus, placebo effect is huge. I am not trying to be a cynic, but before I can recommend a therapy to my patients I must be confident that the physiology and science are there. The caution must be there. Even in true known pain, a placebo can be effective. On the other hand one must exercise extreme caution in taking any product whether Rx or over the counter. I can show you books - popular - that recommend huge doses of B6, 300 mg 3x a day - yet doses of B6 over 200 mg/ day are KNOWN to be toxic. And that's a B vitamin! Forgive the soap box, but look at the dozens of ads for colloidal silver nose drops and sprays - a product KNOWN to cause permanent disfigurement! So, be very sure a product is safe and has a reasonable science to warrant its use. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com >I am not trying to be a cynic, but before I can recommend a therapy to my >patients I must be confident that the physiology and science are there. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >its >use. I think almost every word above is accurate and true and good advice (except I don't believe the placebo effect has stood up to scientific scrutiny). We should all be cautious about all treatments and do our own homework before trying anything. Even if the treatment has been touted as safe and effective in peer reviewed journals, which have proven to be no more reliable than advertisements and testimonials, in terms of author integrity. Susan "Nelson Wallace" <nwwallace@earthlink.net> wrote in part: >"Few studies document that >magnesium relieves tinnitus symptoms, but many patients have experienced >relief by using magnesium (Attias et al. 1994)." > >I'd like to see if the Attias article is legit. And how many is "many". >And what happened later, ... Be careful not to confuse magnesium with manganese.  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG potential long term risk worth it? http://www.classactionamerica.com/Current-Cases/manganese-poisoning.asp > This web page > http://www.upnaway.com/~poliowa/Mn%20for%20Tinnitus.htm [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thanks, > Nelson more info on ingested manganese: http://www.monheit.com/manganism/topics/manganese_toxicity.htm > This web page > http://www.upnaway.com/~poliowa/Mn%20for%20Tinnitus.htm [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thanks, > Nelson one more: http://tsrtp.ucdavis.edu/newsletters/spring_2001/Manganese.html > This web page > http://www.upnaway.com/~poliowa/Mn%20for%20Tinnitus.htm [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thanks, > Nelson Some items to note: - Manganese and magnesium are total different compounds. They are not related on most fronts. - Be wary of compound quantities vs. elemental quantities. Fifty milligrams of manganese compound does not equate to fifty milligrams of basic elemental manganese. I believe the daily U.S.RDA intake of manganese is five milligrams per day but this may take fifty milligrams of manganese compound in your supplement to give you this amount. The ingestability and many other factors will play a part in this ratio. - The amount your are referring to is ludicrous for intake and will probably harm you. Research is in order before taking this amount. Supplementation is usually best "encouraging" you body, rather than trying to force it resulting in other ailments. - I have successfully treated myself for tinnitus many time over the years with manganese supplementation. Originally I supplemented with twenty five milligrams of compound twice per day. I was looking for help with dizziness and possibly Menieres syndrome. After several months of supplementation I noticed all the head and ear noises stopped. Now when they return I take one twenty five milligram supplement daily until the noise become hardly noticeable again. This usually takes a few weeks now. This manganese supplementation is recommended for Menieres in the book "The Prescription for Nutrition Healing" by Balch & Balch. - People suffering chronically with an ailment tend to give up and become depressed after a few years of unsuccessful searching for a cure. This results in a sever negativism toward anybody and anything that could help anyone else fond that cure. Never listen to the denials and the garbage that can be pulled up on the Internet to disprove everything and anything that can shake their negative world. - You will never find help if you do not try. This has been accomplished by many before you and can be accomplished by yourself also. You will evidence this by the replies to follow mine. Because people will not fight the narrowmindedness experienced here does not mean they are not out there and it is hopeless. Best of luck. Have patience. Never giveup. Never give in. > This web page > http://www.upnaway.com/~poliowa/Mn%20for%20Tinnitus.htm [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thanks, > Nelson Thanks for your information. My problem began on July 18, so I'm new to tinnitus. From what I've learned so far, there are many causes that have the same effect, so it's unlikely that there is one cure. Thus it's necessary for people to try to find out what works for them, within the bounds of reasonableness. So I agree completely with your advice to never give up, and to have patience. For my part, I'm doing neck exercises, walking to improve my general fitness, working to improve my posture (and thus my neck geometry), taking a little magnesium, and taking a multivitamin. It is encouraging to hear that your results were achieved with manganese dosages that were reasonable. And your explanation of the different compounds of manganese might explain the extremely high dosages quoted elsewhere, if those dosages were referring to compounds with small percentages of manganese. Or maybe the material on large dosages were just plain wrong; that happens. In any event, after your post, I'll try a little manganese, probably 50 mg daily of "Manganese, as amino acid chelate", and see what happens; I doubt that 50 mg will hurt me. Again, thanks for your information. Regards, Nelson > Some items to note: > [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] >> Thanks, >> Nelson Hi. I saw this web page a while back, tried to find collaborating info but came up empty. If someone is going to take the time (20 minutes tops) to make such a page I would think they would want to establish credibility by citing their sources. Take this statement, "So many people have reported getting rid of tinnitus altogether when on manganese and getting it back when they have stopped taking it.". What people? Absolutely no citations. Thus, absolutely without credibility. Wouldnt it be nice if people who actually engage in homeopathic treatments would log their results somewhere for all to see? Sigh... Perhaps they're too embarrased to have been snookered? Regarding the links people posted. Interesting that there are studies that indicate symtoms of Mn poisoning may "accelerate the emergence of neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson's"; whereas, Tinnitus appears to be be a neurodegenerative disease itself. So Mn causes the first problem but, assuming there is some truth to the reports, may alleviate symptoms of the second? Perhaps while overdoses of Mn is destroying your nervous system over time it also deadens the Tinnitus-causing functions? Must be a clue there somewhere... Jim >Hi. I saw this web page a while back, tried to find collaborating info >but came up empty. If someone is going to take the time (20 minutes [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >manganese and getting it back when they have stopped taking it.". What >people? Absolutely no citations. Thus, absolutely without credibility. I completely agree. Well put. >Wouldnt it be nice if people who actually engage in homeopathic >treatments would log their results somewhere for all to see? Sigh... >Perhaps they're too embarrased to have been snookered? Manganese is a mineral supplement, not a homeopathic preparation, in which the original ingredient is conspicuously absent. Hence toxicity. >Regarding the links people posted. Interesting that there are studies >that indicate symtoms of Mn poisoning may "accelerate the emergence of >neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson's"; whereas, Tinnitus appears >to be be a neurodegenerative disease itself. Not at all! Tinnitus is not a disease, it's a symptom of damage or disease. There are numerous known causes of it, and some unknown. Mine (and my child's in the past) was caused by tick borne infection of the central nervous system. Some folks get it from drug toxicity, some from injuries. Some from other infections or thyroid dysregulation. > So Mn causes the first >problem but, assuming there is some truth to the reports, may alleviate >symptoms of the second? Perhaps while overdoses of Mn is destroying >your nervous system over time it also deadens the Tinnitus-causing >functions? Must be a clue there somewhere... I think that anything strong enough to help you is strong enough to cause harm if used unwisely. This goes for all pharmaceuticals and supplements, I believe. Susan Despite what we like to believe, I think probably most of those supplements that are so popular, simply get flushed away into our sewage system within 12 hours..........however, this is from someone who does take vit c and one a days just for the heck of it. MJ oregon7@aol.com (Oregon7) wrote in part: >Despite what we like to believe, I think probably most of those supplements >that are so popular, simply get flushed away into our sewage system within 12 >hours..........however, this is from someone who does take vit c and one a days >just for the heck of it. > >MJ Interestingly, taking a daily multivitamin has been linked with a higher death rate. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >Interestingly, taking a daily multivitamin has been linked with a higher >death >rate. You're not, of course, suggesting causation? Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >You're not, of course, suggesting causation? I looked for the study I recall seeing, but can't find it. But, no...I was being facetious. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG Jim, most of the time you are a very serious person. Nothing wrong with that. But when you crack a joke it doesn't work. We can't see the glint in your eye. We can't hear the chuckle in your voice. We can't see your comical facial expression. So please, please, when you want to crack a joke - let us know. Put a <grin> or a smiley at the end. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >oregon7@aol.com (Oregon7) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Interestingly, taking a daily multivitamin has been linked with a higher death >rate. >Despite what we like to believe, I think probably most of those supplements >that are so popular, simply get flushed away into our sewage system within 12 >hours..........however, this is from someone who does take vit c and one a >days >just for the heck of it I have to differ with you. Some of the supplements I take have made dramatic improvments in either my lipid levels, my clinical health (got rid of peripheral neuropathies) or both. I take those that are well studied, and in the case of pantethine, had amazing lab test results after a few months, just as the scientific literature reported. Same with alpha lipoic acid for PNs. I know many folks who get significant relief from restless leg syndrome by taking vitamin E. B5 in megadoses is non-toxic and clears acne. Fish oil in high doses effectively lowers triglycerides. Niacin can lower them, LDL and raise HDL. There's more, but I think I've made my point. Of course, if you're taking more than 500mg of time released vitamin C per day, you probably are just peeing it out; tissue saturation typically takes place lower than that. Marsha, it would be very helpful if you could quote the portion of the post you're replying to. It seems as if you're making random statements with no connection to the discussion when you don't. I have a good collection of peer reviewed citations for most of the above supplements, BTW. Susan Good idea. I have no citations but I heard recently that people who eat pickles inevitably die. Just kidding a bit. Jim, you must on online as we speak.....keeping up with all these boards. Sue, as I have said many times, if something works for a person, that is wonderful! I know when I did Atkins for six months, my blood measurements were quite remarkably improved.........seems like now, I am on a chocolate and candy cane diet......... MJ >Sue, as I have said many times, if something works for a person, that is >wonderful! I know when I did Atkins for six months, my blood measurements >were >quite remarkably improved.........seems like now, I am on a chocolate and >candy >cane diet........ Lose the candy canes and keep the chocolate. If it's dark, then it's low in sugar and loaded with healthy antioxidants. I always have some on hand for medicinal purposes. ;-) Susan Life is fatal. It will get you in the end. Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ >Good idea. I have no citations but I heard recently that people who eat >pickles inevitably die. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >MJ
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