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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / November 2004Misunderstandings all round!
Bill wrote: >You don't understand habituation Francis. Those of us who have >habituated >our tinnitus don't suffer it. In fact, we don't even notice our >tinnitus >unless we pause to listen. The only reason we hang around this Usenet >group >is to help others achieve the same thing. You don't seem able to grasp the fact Bill that when my T goes quiet, it goes quiet - nothing, zilch, peace, quiet, and I *do* listen especially hard for it as I can't believe it has gone! When my T goes quiet I can't hear a thing no matter how hard I try listening for it! And, I do *try* listening for it. It is *very* noisy* at the moment because I can hear it, but if I laid down I daresay it would go away within a few minutes. That is lying down (usually on my lefthand side) in a deadly quiet room, no sound, no distraction, all silence, then after a short while, NO T! My T does vary in noisyness - sometimes very loud, like now, and other times a medium-ish put-up-able sound, sometimes not too bad at all, other times NOTHING! It certainly isn't due to habituation, because at times (not often enough for me) I have no T to listen to, whether I try, or not. Ben > Bill wrote: > >You don't understand habituation Francis. Those of us who have [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ben Oh yes, Ben, that happens to me too. Sometimes I pause to listen for it and hear nothing but silence. My tinnitus is really quite variable in presence, pitch, loudness, perceived origin... every aspect. The fact that it goes silent from time-to-time really has nothing to do with habituation. At the moment my tinnitus consists of two sounds, a low, irregular raspy sound on the left side accompanied by a constant high pitched squeal that seems to come from the middle of my head. Because I have habituated my tinnitus, I didn't notice the sound, or their instant characteristics until I started paying attention. Likewise, I wouldn't know if it had gone silent unless I took pause to listen. Habituation doesn't diminish or alter the sound, it merely renders it meaningless. There are people who attribute these variations to diet and various treatments and remedies. I experience the same variations without treatment or lifestyle change. I might have a massage today and maybe my tinnitus will be silent tonight, but the fact is it is just as likely to be silent tonight if I do nothing at all. I took ginkgo a few years ago. My tinnitus varied so much it was impossible for me to associate the ginkgo with the changes. Say I had a completely silent experience the day after I started ginkgo. Would that mean anything? No. Would that lead me to recommend ginkgo to others in this group? No. Bill > Because I have habituated my tinnitus, I > didn't notice the sound, or their instant characteristics until I started > paying attention. Likewise, I wouldn't know if it had gone silent unless I > took pause to listen. Habituation doesn't diminish or alter the sound, it > merely renders it meaningless. I still don't "get it" Bill! How can a squeal, screech, ringing, whatever noise one suffers from, be something you can get used to, or ignore? None of those noises can be rendered as meaningless, surely? Either the T is there, or it isn't? Habituation to me is nearly as bad as the docs saying "go away nothing can be done about tinnitus". I don't *want* to get used to the bloody noise - I want it to go away for good - like most on here? > Say I had a completely silent experience the day after I started > ginkgo. Would that mean anything? No. Would that lead me to recommend > ginkgo to others in this group? No. I think gingko needs to be taken over a period of 2 to 3 months before one can say it is helping the T? People on here feel so desperate they will try anything, and as nothing is prescibed by docs, then I don't see why ginko shouldn't be given a go. I think most things we try are the placebo effect. I took Vinpocetine and my T was quiet for four whole days, so I thought I had found the answer to mine, but no, it came back after the four days of peace :P I thinkeventually there will have to be many "cures" as we are all so different? Different causes, different sounds etc. Ben <who bets the cure will be horse sh.t :D > Ben <hamlets.scrubber@ntlworld.com> wrote in part: >I still don't "get it" Bill! How can a squeal, screech, ringing, >whatever noise one suffers from, be something you can get used to, or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >don't *want* to get used to the bloody noise - I want it to go away for >good - like most on here? The tinnitus noise IS meaningless. It is your reaction to it that causes you to suffer. Yes, it would be great to be cured and have no tinnitus. Most of us haven't been able to do that yet, and we are most grateful for the habituation.  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > The tinnitus noise IS meaningless. It is your reaction to it that causes you > to suffer. So, why am I hearing it some days and not others, or when I lie down it goes away? I don't consider myself to be suffering except when it is extra loud all day, for several days at a time. No matter what I eat, do, or try, makes no difference. and yet it can disappear, or be noisy! I would hardly call it meaningless after nearly 14 years. > Yes, it would be great to be cured and have no tinnitus. Most of us haven't > been able to do that yet, and we are most grateful for the habituation. You sound like Francis and his "cures"! :) Ben Ben <hamlets.scrubber@ntlworld.com> wrote in part: > I would hardly call it meaningless after nearly 14 years. What has it meant? If you simply hadn't much noticed it, what meaning would it have had? After 14 years of announcing its presence off and on, doesn't it start to seem just a bit meaningless? SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > What has it meant? At times? Sheer hell! > If you simply hadn't much noticed it, what meaning would it have had? I don't know what your T is like, but mine is never not noticeable unless it is totally quiet, then there is nothing to notice! >After 14 > years of announcing its presence off and on, doesn't it start to seem just a > bit meaningless? NO! You are being as insulting as saying, "Oh, you have a broken leg. Go away, put up with the pain, and it will become meaningless!" Rubbish! Ben Ben <hamlets.scrubber@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<6v_md.481 snipped... "Oh, you have a broken leg. > Go away, put up with the pain, and it will become meaningless!" Rubbish! Agreed! Some T patients suffer from only noise while others from a mix of noise and physical discomfort. Those with only noise could habituate more easily than those with both noise and physical discomfort. As a matter of fact, those with physical discomfort need medical attention to take care of their physical discomfort before they could habituate. In alt, some people try to prove their methodology of habituation and in doing so generalizing to include all patients. If I had followed their advice, I would have continued to suffer in silence and been made a fool of it. FP > Ben > Ben <hamlets.scrubber@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<6v_md.481 > snipped... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > FP This is disingenuous. No one here suggested you not seek medical attention to take care of your physical discomfort. Best wishes, scp >> Ben <hamlets.scrubber@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<6v_md.481 >> snipped... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > scp I'm not sure what he accomplished. He was suffering in silence, but now he has tinnitus too. > >> Ben <hamlets.scrubber@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<6v_md.481 > >> snipped... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I'm not sure what he accomplished. He was suffering in silence, but now he > has tinnitus too. You don't even read. Each person is different. Some suffer from *just* sound or ringing in the ear to which over time they get used, while others suffer from a mix or sound and nerve discomfort _interconnected_ with each other. I used to suffer from extreme discomfort in my head and whenever the suffering came, t sound used to come along as well. So I thought something inside my head was causing me the T. After a few treatments, the discomfort went away but the sound still remains....So there were interconnected but separate entities. So there were interconnected but separate > entities. Profound conclusion, Francis. > > The tinnitus noise IS meaningless. It is your reaction to it that causes you > > to suffer. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > do, or try, makes no difference. and yet it can disappear, or be noisy! > I would hardly call it meaningless after nearly 14 years. I don't know what this discussion is all about, but the point is that you can teach your brain not to react so badly to tinnitus. You can make it "ignore" the sound so that it becomes just like any other background noise - unnoticeable, or far less noticeable, and therefore less irritating. When you sit down in an office, PC buzzing on your desk, do you sit and listen to it all the time, getting annoyed by it? I don't. And you can use TRT to teach the brain to react the same way to your T. again I shall say..if my noise was constantly the same, as say the running of my computer, yes I would get used to it, but from one day to the next I dont know what my noise is going to be..it can change every few minutes sometimes....and yes I hear it. RogeR wrote in message ... >> > The tinnitus noise IS meaningless. It is your reaction to it that causes you >> > to suffer. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >you sit and listen to it all the time, getting annoyed by it? I don't. >And you can use TRT to teach the brain to react the same way to your T. I agree with you Jennifer. It is better in some ways that T varies, but to "habituate" i'e. get used to it, it has to be more or less the same noise all the time? Ben > again I shall say..if my noise was constantly the same, as say the running > of my computer, yes I would get used to it, but from one day to the next I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > causes you > >> > to suffer. >I agree with you Jennifer. It is better in some ways that T varies, but to > "habituate" i'e. get used to it, it has to be more or less the same noise > all the time? > > Ben Nope. >> Nope. So, why isn't this the miracle cure we are all looking for? Ben >>It is better in some ways that T varies, but to "habituate" i'e. get used >>to it, it has to be more or less the same noise all the time? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ben Habituating tinnitus doesn't cure it Ben. It's like getting used to traffic noise. It's there, but you don't notice it and it doesn't bother you. I think it's easier to habituate "real" noise of known origin than the perceived noise of tinnitus because the source of the real noise doesn't represent a threat unless you live in Iraq or Sudan. Once a person accepts the tinnitus sound as non-threatening it becomes much easier to habituate. >> Habituating tinnitus doesn't cure it Ben. It's like getting used to traffic > noise. It's there, but you don't notice it and it doesn't bother you. I am sorry Bill, but I simply don't believe one can get used to a very high-pitched ringing in one's head! It sounds like nothing else I know of, so how can I ginore it? > I think it's easier to habituate "real" noise of known origin than the > perceived noise of tinnitus because the source of the real noise doesn't > represent a threat unless you live in Iraq or Sudan. It persents NO threat to me whatsover after nearly 14 years! > Once a person accepts the tinnitus sound as non-threatening it becomes much > easier to habituate. I am not afraid of the noise; I see it as no threat, yet it annoys me summat awful! Ben >>> Habituating tinnitus doesn't cure it Ben. It's like getting used to > traffic [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Ben Ben, do you ever experience intervals where you are so involved in what you are doing that for that time you don't notice your tinnitus? If you do, then I believe you can habituate your tinnitus. maybe I would be able to accept this noise ad non threatening if I could only find out what is causing it. Ben wrote in message ... >>> Habituating tinnitus doesn't cure it Ben. It's like getting used to >traffic [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Ben > maybe I would be able to accept this noise ad non threatening if I could > only find out what is causing it. Jennifer, the cause of tinnitus is, in most cases, unknown. One popular *theory* involves the misfiring of nerve cells at their junction with hair cells in the cochlea. This theory would have false signals propagate the auditory nerve to the central cortex where they would be perceived as sound coming from the ear associated with the damage cochlea's hair cells. There are some problems with this theory, not the least of which are: 1. It doesn't explain bilateral tinnitus of sudden onset. In other words, what are the odds that the hair cells in *both* cochlea would reach this damaged state at the same instant in one's life? 2. It is counterintuitive because the proper functioning of hair cells is necessary to normal hearing. Lots of people have both tinnitus AND normal hearing. 3. Tinnitus can persist after the auditory nerve is severed. The broad definition of tinnitus doesn't help. Yesterday I experienced a series of spasms in my left ear that produced a rapid thump-thump-thump sound accompanied by a vibrating physical component. This "tinnitus" is unrelated to the "tinnitus" usually described here as escaping steam or crickets chirping. In that case, the point of origin is well known to ENTs. Thankfully, there are scientists who research tinnitus. Hopefully the precise cause will be found and will facilitate finding a cure. In the meantime, we are left to acclimate ourselves to the sound. I don't believe anyone has died from tinnitus and I don't believe tinnitus is a precursor to other, serious physical problems. If you can accept this and just get on with your life, habituation will be easier. Bill "tinnitus" usually described here as escaping steam or crickets chirping. In that case, the point of origin is well known to ENTs. ?? Bill wrote in message ... >> maybe I would be able to accept this noise ad non threatening if I could >> only find out what is causing it. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >Bill > "tinnitus" usually described here as escaping steam or > crickets chirping. In that case, the point of origin is well known to > ENTs. > > ?? Jennifer, you snipped "that" case. I wrote: >The broad definition of tinnitus doesn't help. Yesterday I experienced a >series of spasms in my left ear that produced a rapid thump-thump-thump >sound accompanied by a vibrating physical component. This "tinnitus" is >unrelated to the "tinnitus" usually described here as escaping steam or >crickets chirping. In that case, the point of origin is well known to ENTs. Where "this" is the tinnitus usually described as escaping steam or crickets chirping. "That" is the rapid thump-thump-thump sound with a physical component. ENT's know what causes the thump-thump-thump with a vibrating physical component. Sorry for the clumsy paragraph. Bill >maybe I would be able to accept this noise ad non threatening if I could >only find out what is causing it. It probably wouldn't. It would give you an excuse to start looking in a different direction. Can you accept???? TINNITUS IS NOT A FATAL DISEASE BUT A CONFOUNDED NUISANCE! Tinnitus is a pain in the neck Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ no need to yell Elly Byrne wrote in message ... >>maybe I would be able to accept this noise ad non threatening if I could >>only find out what is causing it. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Elly's Tinnitus Resources >http://eebee.net/ -- > >> Habituating tinnitus doesn't cure it Ben. It's like getting used to > traffic [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ben Ben, I think one way that helps 'put it in its place' in your life is knowing you have some direct control over it, regardless of any 'habituation'. You can switch it off and take a break from it by lying on your side ? As for me, I have a couple of electronic devices that give me relief. It's when you feel you are helpless that despair can set in. You then focus on it more and more, making habituation impossible. As for tinnitus being a high pitched whistle and hard to blank out - I used to work as a BBC technician in the days of the old 405-line television service. There was a 'line-whistle' of 10125 Hz from the equipment audible everywhere! It was just like a tinnitus sound but it didn't bother us because we knew it was harmless and 'just part of the scenery' . BTW it always seems worse when I visit this group because I am thinking about it ! Steve O "Skycloud" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<30dqu9F2vi3h7U1@uni- snipped... > BTW it always seems worse when I visit this group because I am thinking > about it ! I seem to share the same view. But then again, I do feel there are individuals lurking in this ng who need views that are non-confirming to the norm. FP > Steve O >I am sorry Bill, but I simply don't believe one can get used to a very >high-pitched ringing in one's head! Yet, that's what most folks do. Susan
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