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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / October 2004

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You can't fool all the people all the time

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francispoon - 18 Oct 2004 20:48 GMT
The world is full of false science, and it is a process of trials and
errors, learning and discovering, that finally tells the false from
the proper.

Given the millions of kinds of treatments/medicines around the globe
since time memorial, how on earth could we tell the quacks from the
non-quacks, the true from the false?  We could form associations,
professional bodies, etc.  But in doing so we could also create
monopolies to the detriments of the patients.

Thus the only way by which we could filter out the quacks is to apply
the concept of market demand.  That is to say, if a method, or a
medicine, were in continuously high demand over time, it would show
that the consumers(patients) have found value in these treatment
methods a/o medicines.  The rest is less reliable as a yardstick to
judge.

For your information, the _mainstream_ medical practice in the most
populous country in the world China is not western, nor its
traditional medicine, but a combination of both.  That is, doctors
incorporate into the traditional discipline the available modern
methods,tools, and medicines imported from the west.

The reason why this combination has come about and been gaining
momentum is not due to the whim of the bureacracy but due to the
_market demand_ exerted by the consumers or patients.  The latter has
found, over time, the deficiency in each principle, eastern or
western, modern and ancient, conventional or alternative, and thus
been expressing itself through its 'demand' for a certain kind of
medical practice.  This certain kind is now found in the combined
disciplines.

That is the way it has been going on in China and this is the
direction it is going to take in North America, Europe, UK and around
the globe!  Years ago, when the British first came to HK, they also
looked down upon the TCM and called it by all sorts of insulting
names.  Later on, it was the educated British elite that took TCM home
back to England.

In China, any doctor or professor that does not know something in
another  'alternative' discipline is now in the minority.  Basing upon
this pattern of development, any doctor in America in the future that
is ignorant of what is happening in the alternatives will be called
'ethnic' doctor, and a professor 'ethnic' professor.

FP
ENTconsult - 19 Oct 2004 01:35 GMT
Thus the only way by which we could filter out the quacks is to apply
the concept of market demand.  That is to say, if a method, or a
medicine, were in continuously high demand over time, it would show
that the consumers(patients) have found value in these treatment
methods a/o medicines.  The rest is less reliable as a yardstick to
judge.

Totally disagree. Just because a product or treatment sells well is no guage of
anything.
In order to get published in a peer review medical journal, a study has to be
reviewed by others in the field. The fact that the study can be duplicated by
anyone anywhere in the world to get the same results speaks for the
relieability of the method.
It is only the application of the scientific method that has allowed us to
afvance in the medical field.
Murray Grossan, M.D.
http://www.ent-consult.com
Susan - 19 Oct 2004 01:49 GMT
>Totally disagree. Just because a product or treatment sells well is no guage
>of
>anything.

This is true.  Look at how many dangerous and/or ineffective treatments get by
our regulators, though, even allegedly using the scientific method.  It's a
triumph of marketing and dishonest study reporting over science.

Claritin, an antihistamine that helps *maybe* 30% of the allergic population
gained enormous market share.  Rezulin, a killer diabetes drug made it to
market, as did the statin Crestor, despite its lousy safety profile.  The
dangerous LymeRix vaccine made it to market, too, due to lying and dishonesty
by academic medical investigators.  Market share sure isn't proof of anything.

The scientific method isn't what guides our U.S. regulatory process.

Susan
Jim Chinnis - 19 Oct 2004 02:32 GMT
entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in part:

>Thus the only way by which we could filter out the quacks is to apply
>the concept of market demand.  That is to say, if a method, or a
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>afvance in the medical field.
>Murray Grossan, M.D.

Absolutely.
Signature

Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG

francispoon - 19 Oct 2004 18:32 GMT
Jim,

Please show me an example of a medicine or medical treatment that has
been selling well for a long long long time 'globally' but has been
discharged by scientific findings done 'globally' on a macro-basis.
Given the imperfection of the science of marketing, anything could
escape the sight of the consumers on a micro basis over a short period
of time.

Then show me a product which the manufacturer, prior to making it,
knows its UN-productivity but still makes it and survive well in the
open atmosphere of the free market information....and _ends up with a
profit_ over a prolonged time period.

FP
=======================
> entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Absolutely.
Susan - 19 Oct 2004 20:07 GMT
>Then show me a product which the manufacturer, prior to making it,
>knows its UN-productivity but still makes it and survive well in the
>open atmosphere of the free market information....and _ends up with a
>profit_ over a prolonged time period.

Hormone replacement therapy for women.  Arguably, statin drugs for lipid
lowering.

Susan
drfrank21 - 20 Oct 2004 04:34 GMT
> Jim,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> FP

It seems like you have your head in the sand if you truly don't believe that
there aren't any pseudo-science/quack therapies out in the world. Go to
quackwatch which is a very good site and try to check out the site with
an open mind.  A couple of my personal favorites are
www.alexchiu.com (live forever) and Hulda Clark's theory that all cancers
are caused by a parasite.  My favorite in my field are the pinhole glasses
that will cure your nearsightedness.  

Really, I think you would feel quite at home @ misc.health.alternative; there
are posters there that think as you do.

frank
francispoon - 20 Oct 2004 19:40 GMT
Dr. Frank,

Please go and take a course in medical economics or just plain
economics.  I don't really think we are on the same subject.  And I
don;t really think that many doctors or professionals in this ng
realize that there is a _cost_ involved in any kind of endeavors, be
the latter conventional or alternative, proper or quack.
================================
> > Jim,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> frank
drfrank21 - 21 Oct 2004 17:57 GMT
> Dr. Frank,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> realize that there is a _cost_ involved in any kind of endeavors, be
> the latter conventional or alternative, proper or quack.

I aint never heard about them fancy words, "medical economics"- I is
just a guy with a ring-a-dinging in my ol head.

Market demand has very little to no correlation to how valid a therapy
is and it would be funny if you were indeed kidding but you're not.
Sad.

Life is too short about trying to have a reasonable discussion with
someone like yourself. Good luck.

frank
francispoon - 22 Oct 2004 04:58 GMT
> > Dr. Frank,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Market demand has very little to no correlation to how valid a therapy
> is and it would be funny if you were indeed kidding but you're not.

So are you suggesting that consumers are blind even over the longer term?

FP
===========================

> Sad.
>
> Life is too short about trying to have a reasonable discussion with
> someone like yourself. Good luck.
>
> frank
francispoon - 22 Oct 2004 18:44 GMT
drfrank21@hotmail.com (drfrank21) wrote in message

> Market demand has very little to no correlation to how valid a therapy
> is

Is Lipitor in popular demand _over time_?
Is Lipitor a valid therapy _proven over time_?

and it would be funny if you were indeed kidding but you're not.
> Sad.

I was going to comment on your 'education' vs your intellectual
performance.  But since I am going to church this Sunday, I am going
to save it.

FP

> Life is too short about trying to have a reasonable discussion with
> someone like yourself. Good luck.
>
> frank
Susan - 22 Oct 2004 22:37 GMT
>Is Lipitor in popular demand _over time_?

Yes, so far it has a commanding market share, along with kindred products.

>Is Lipitor a valid therapy _proven over time_?

I don't think so, not with much cheaper and safer alternatives available.

Susan
drfrank21 - 23 Oct 2004 01:07 GMT
> drfrank21@hotmail.com (drfrank21) wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> performance.  But since I am going to church this Sunday, I am going
> to save it.

It appears that logic may not be your strong suit.  

You essentially stated that ANY treatment/therapy/product whether
conventional or quack tx's which are popular has to be valid; I
stated as above. Does that mean that
No treatment that is popular is invalid?? OF COURSE NOT!!! Refractive
surgery (ie. lasik for refractive error) is hugely popular but is has
sound science and has passed all of trials to be (mostly) safe and
effective. And medications, such as lipitor.But homeopathy,
reflexology,
and iridology to name just a few, are popular but the science is
questionable as well as effectiveness of treatment. Being popular does
not guarantee
the validity of treatment especially in alternative and/or quack
treatments.

frank
Patty - 23 Oct 2004 02:20 GMT
>> drfrank21@hotmail.com (drfrank21) wrote in message
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> frank

Amen.....Thank You!
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(?.??    (?.*? ?.??  `?-*  * Patty *     `?-*

Susan - 23 Oct 2004 02:24 GMT
>Being popular does
>not guarantee
>the validity of treatment especially in alternative and/or quack
>treatments.

Sorry, Frank, but being popular with doctors oversold by pharmacy reps doesn't
make a valid treatment either, even after trials and FDA approval.  The risk
benefit ratio of Lipitor does not warrant its widespread use, nor necessarily
any.  It causes far more harm than any trial publication is admitting, just ask
patients.

The Rezulin FDA approval came after a dogfight among reviewers, with the one
sticking by the science tossed from the committee and blackballed.  LymeRix was
approved by a grimfaced committee who feared for its safety; they were told
they had to because the manufacturer had jumped through all the hoops
bureaucratically.
Lack of scientific support had nothing to do with that decision, either.  Both
were pulled from the market after FDA approval due to dangers they represented
to patients.  There's Vioxx, never proven more effective in any way than other
NSAIDS, but causing higher risk of heart attack; why'd it get approval, too?

Laser surgery for vision correction is  wonderful for many, but it's also
oversold when, in fact, many folks are harmed by it, with lasting trauma, far
more than are generally reported.  We don't know how healthy all those lasered
eyes are going to be decades after surgery, do we?  

Then there's the WHI, proving that HRT had none of the benefits claimed in
decades of use, just the opposite, it increased risks of breast cancer, heart
disease and stroke.  

Anecdotes and financial interests govern both kinds of quack medicine; one just
has a veneer of respectability.  The other is more honest.  Both require caveat
emptor.

Susan
francispoon - 23 Oct 2004 20:07 GMT
> > drfrank21@hotmail.com (drfrank21) wrote in message
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> You essentially stated that ANY treatment/therapy/product whether
> conventional or quack tx's which are popular has to be valid;

Read again,  drfrank.  If something is demanded by many consumers
_over time_, it would imply the consumers have derived a value from
it.   This very item may not meet your definition of science.
=========================================

I
> stated as above. Does that mean that
> No treatment that is popular is invalid?? OF COURSE NOT!!! Refractive
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> frank
Patty - 20 Oct 2004 19:46 GMT
>> Jim,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> frank

You might as well 'give it up', Frank.  There is no reasoning with some
people.
Signature

*??)
  . ?? ?.?*?)   ?.?*?)                    ?.?*?)
(?.??    (?.*? ?.??  `?-*  * Patty *     `?-*

francispoon - 19 Oct 2004 18:01 GMT
> Thus the only way by which we could filter out the quacks is to apply
> the concept of market demand.  That is to say, if a method, or a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Totally disagree. Just because a product or treatment sells well is no guage of anything.

Sell well OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, not just a fad....That is to
say, if a product were left in the market throughout rainy days,
criticism, medical examinations, etc., and still had a high demand for
it, that product would have a good chance to be OK.  There are
examples, of course.  After all, the science of marketing is never
perfect.

Can you cite me an examples of a product that still commands a high
demand regardless of whatever studies that point to the contrary over
a looooooong time period?

FP
=================================


> In order to get published in a peer review medical journal, a study has to be
> reviewed by others in the field. The fact that the study can be duplicated by
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Murray Grossan, M.D.
> http://www.ent-consult.com
William Nunn - 22 Oct 2004 00:37 GMT
I believe you are correct Francis, any treatment which has proven effective
and safe over time will be demanded the most.

>> Thus the only way by which we could filter out the quacks is to apply
>> the concept of market demand.  That is to say, if a method, or a
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>> Murray Grossan, M.D.
>> http://www.ent-consult.com 
William Nunn - 22 Oct 2004 00:41 GMT
"Just because a product or treatment sells well is no guage of anything."

Typical bullshit brainwashing which this fraternity perpetuates. So the mass
populace will be ingesting a placebo or inaffective drug over time and keep
buying it. I doubt they are this ignorant.
drfrank21 - 22 Oct 2004 21:32 GMT
> "Just because a product or treatment sells well is no guage of anything."
>
> Typical bullshit brainwashing which this fraternity perpetuates. So the mass
> populace will be ingesting a placebo or inaffective drug over time and keep
> buying it. I doubt they are this ignorant.

Think about for a moment the billon dollar industry of diet pills (some
even claim to lose weight while sleeping) for example. Despite the un-
validated claims and ineffectiveness of these products, people (at least
in the U.S.) keep buying. And when they don't work,the consumer will then
go on to "next" new and improved diet pill. May not be so much ignorance
as "wishful thinking" and/or very slick marketing. I have seen many
"otherwise intelligent" people fall into this trap. So sure, there will
always be a market for this no matter how bogus the pills are.

Nothing to do with brainwashing of "this" fraternity (I assume you
mean the greedy conventional medical community).

frank
ENTconsult - 23 Oct 2004 20:03 GMT
Typical bullshit brainwashing which this fraternity perpetuates. So the mass
populace will be ingesting a placebo or inaffective drug over time and keep
buying it. I doubt they are this ignorant.

Homeopathy, Herbalife, Megavitamine, Astrology, .....

its not ignorance, its a simple failure to use science. Some teachers don't
have a clue about scientific methods.  More money is spent on Astrology books
than on Popular Science.
Murray Grossan, M.D.
http://www.ent-consult.com
ENTconsult - 23 Oct 2004 20:04 GMT
Typical bullshit brainwashing which this fraternity perpetuates. So the mass
populace will be ingesting a placebo or inaffective drug over time and keep
buying it. I doubt they are this ignorant.

UFO
Murray Grossan, M.D.
http://www.ent-consult.com

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