Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / October 2004
Kidney and Cochlea
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francispoon - 11 Oct 2004 05:49 GMT Months ago when I brought up the idea that the traditional Chinese medical practioners have been pointing, for _thousands of years_, to the close connection between kidney and cochlea as *one* of the areas where the cause of tinnitus could be found, I was ridiculed by the simple folks in ALT for brainwashing the audience with "anectodal" herb treatments.
The following is an article writen by some 'high tech' doctors of the west, which points to the close connection between kidney and cochlea. Their findings seem to have confirmed what the traditional Chinese herb doctors found out 'thousands of years ago'.
http://www.boystownhospital.org/parents/info/genetics/ears.asp
Somewhere in this article, the author mentions that the overdoze of diuretics could damage our kidney and thus affect our cochlea. I fully agree. I think loop diuretic is in general ototoxic. I managed to liberate myself months ago from the torturing chamber of tinnitus the moment I stopped taking hydrochloride-thiazide. I wonder how I would have been feeling if I had continued to take HCTZ up to this date. Thank you Dr. Chung for having suspected HCTZ was the culprit of causing both of my ears to ring!
The human body is a complex entity and no part in this entity should be studied in its isolation.
Once again, the world in which we live does NOT look like a halved water melon revolving around its axis in the outer space. It is about time that the simple folks should open up their minds and listen to what the other half of this whole water melon has to say.
FP
Patty - 11 Oct 2004 06:19 GMT > Months ago when I brought up the idea that the traditional Chinese > medical practioners have been pointing, for _thousands of years_, to [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > FP If you will remember, Francis, I posted an entire article for you, many months ago, concerning the use of diuretics. It stated that diuretics can cause a depletion of potassium and not only damage your kidneys but also affect the heart and cause cramps in the leg muscles....among other undesirable conditions. But, you were determined to use them and continued to experiment with all manner of unconventional treatments. Why don't you (one of the simple folks) open up *your* mind and listen to what others try to tell you?
francispoon - 11 Oct 2004 19:31 GMT > > Months ago when I brought up the idea that the traditional Chinese > > medical practioners have been pointing, for _thousands of years_, to [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > (one of the simple folks) open up *your* mind and listen to what others try > to tell you? I have not seen your article. I quit using hydrochloridethiazide about 10 months ago. I came back to use LASIX only because a _licensed_ doctor recommended me to use it to cope with my hydrop problem. Though both are diuretics, they do have varied properties that may be suitable for one but not another. You should not generalize the use of diuretics. After all, dehydrase inhibitor or DIAMOX is also a diuretic, and was recommended to me by both Murray and Dr. Chung as a way to cope with the excessive production of inner ear fluid. Unfortunately my doctor in HK disagreed to using it as it is inconvenient. Lasix helped me controlled the 'beast' for several months until I did not need it any more.
If you had been a doctor, I 'might' have listened to you by taking your opinion to my doctor. It was my doctor that prescribed Lasix to me. You just happened to be one of the participants who are unlicensed to prescribe but free to give opinions. You should not have expected me to listen to you. On the other hand, I did not ask the forum to listen to what those traditional Chinese medical practitioner have to say but stop ridiculing something which they don't know. Thus there is a BIG difference between ridiculing and taking advice.
FP
Charge it to the kids - 11 Oct 2004 19:56 GMT >You should not have expected me to listen to you. Likewise, I'm sure.
francispoon - 12 Oct 2004 04:44 GMT > >You should not have expected me to listen to you. > > Likewise, I'm sure. You are obviously listening, kid, not to me but to what i posted.
Patty - 12 Oct 2004 19:28 GMT >> > Months ago when I brought up the idea that the traditional Chinese >> > medical practioners have been pointing, for _thousands of years_, to [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> to tell you? >*??) . ?? ?.?*?) ?.?*?) ?.?*?) (?.?? (?.*? ?.?? `?-* * Patty * `?-*
> I have not seen your article. I quit using hydrochloridethiazide > about 10 months ago. I came back to use LASIX only because a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > FP No, Francis, I am not a Dr. However I have my MS degree in Biomedical Sciences and have worked in the medical/dental field for 20+ years and I know what I am talking about. But, I don't expect you to listen to me or to anyone else who tries to give you advise. Afterall, this has been your treatments thus far:
T sufferers simply eat A LOT OF black beans. According to what I have found out, not only do black beans help them cure T, some of the sufferers have had their white hair turned black again. The theory is this: black beans invigorate the kidney, which in turn invigorates the rest of the body.
The day i dislodged myself from diurectics was the day of liberation for me as far as my tinnitus was concerned.
In each and every one of these occasions, I experienced a 'stedio' effect of ringing on both ears from my tinnitus. Without any of these products, the ringing takes place in one ear only.
The funny thing is: after taking Dyazide, the ringing seems to shift to the middle
That is a good suggestion but unfortunately 2 doctors of mine do think cleaning up the blood vessels is part of the solution to tinnitus, the other one, who is a herbalist, obviously disagrees. So in order to figure out who is revealing the 'truth', i have to judge each of them by the results of taking the medication they prescribe to me. So far the herbalist makes most sense. His prescribed medicine has turned the ringing sound into the sound of water flowing through a pipe.
Thank you for the soothing words. Currently i am trying everything. It seems to be my tinnitus comes from hidden anxiety inside my system.
To improve it as much as possible. I used to suffer from somatic discomfort in my head about 2 months ago but now it is under control with the use of Lasix on an as needed basis.
I have discovered that out of the 7 days in a week, 4 are 'consistently' good while 3 'consistently' bad days. Regardless of the kind of medication I put on, I could have the bad days improved in degree but not in kind. That is to say, it is still the solid 3 days in which things are annoying.
I have discovered that not only high salt diet could affect tinnitus, high sugar diet could do that also. Both high salt and sugar diet affect the inner ear fluid concentration which could result in an aggravated T.
Though i am no doctor and no scientist, i would nevertheless venture>to say that there is at least a correlational if not a casual>relationship between alcohol intake and tinnitus sound.
I am no longer dealing with the sound but am dealing with the somatic discomfort that comes with the sound. I will be talking to my doc about using carbonic dehydrase inhibitor soon.
Betahistine mesilate and hyperbaric oxygen chamber seem to have worked a bit in terms of bringing about 'vertical' progress. And somewhere they seem to have reached their limits.
When I had my T onset at first, i was constantly given the herbs that were meant to look after the kidney. The herbs did produce some silence. But in order for the silence to continue, one has to boil the herb tea daily and it was a laborious exercise.
The doctor in the neurology department concluded that my T is due to some nerve conditions inside the brain and in my view is similar to T-7 cause of tinnitus as described in T-Gone website.
When it rang on my left side of the head, it triggered fast heartbeats but when it rings on the right hand side, there has never been any fast heartbeats. Currently, after both the intravenous injection and hyperbaric oxygen treatment, the ringing on the left side no longer bothers me.
I have found ATIVAN and on one occasion prochlorperazine helpful in terms of making the noise go away. I heard that in the US the tinnitus victims are on Xanax for long term treatment.
My tinnitus came out in the process of changing my high blood pressure medication from exclusively calcium channel blocker to a combination approach which included diurectics, beta-blocker and calcium channel blocker.
Go for a hyperbaric oxygen therapy treatment. Half of the people in the chamber here I am go there because of hearing problems.
I have discovered that if I take all the needed high blood pressure medicine at one time in the morning, such an action could trigger the inner ear and the inner ear, once triggered, rings for the whole day. On the other hand, if i divided the needed regimen into two portions that are to be taken two times, the inner ear is less likely triggered and the subsequent ringing becomes smaller.
Yesterday(Jan 28), i did away with Dyazide but replaced it with 2.5 mg of Plendil. The noise was 60% reduced and confined to the left side of the ear/brain in the form of low frequency buzz. I took 10 mg of Zestril and 2.5 mg of Plendil in the morning. From 10am to 3pm, it was quite tolerably quiet.
>You should not have expected me to listen to you. I didn't.
*??) . ?? ?.?*?) ?.?*?) ?.?*?) (?.?? (?.*? ?.?? `?-* * Patty * `?-*
Charge it to the kids - 12 Oct 2004 19:59 GMT >>> > Months ago when I brought up the idea that the traditional Chinese >>> > medical practioners have been pointing, for _thousands of years_, to [quoted text clipped - 181 lines] > . ?? ?.?*?) ?.?*?) ?.?*?) > (?.?? (?.*? ?.?? `?-* * Patty * `?-* Great Patty,
Francis, read what you have posted over the past year or so. You have grasped all manner of cure for your tinnitus, the most current of which are ginkgo and acupuncture. From what you write, every think you have tried has helped your tinnitus by some finite percentage, the sum of which far exceeds 100%.
It worries me that newbies with tinnitus might actually subsist on black beans or waste their money (or their government's money) on treatments that you once described as a panacea but now know don't work. Yes, you will claim they work for some, or that they worked for someone you know, but frankly, that isn't good enough.
Habituation won't work for you as long as you continue to jump from one "remedy" to another, always monitoring your tinnitus looking for a percentage improvement. Tinnitus is so variable as to render short term observation meaningless.
francispoon - 13 Oct 2004 04:36 GMT "Charge it to the kids" <BorrowAndSpendConservative@whitehouse.now> wrote in snipped...
> Francis, read what you have posted over the past year or so. You have > grasped all manner of cure for your tinnitus, the most current of which are > ginkgo and acupuncture. From what you write, every think you have tried has > helped your tinnitus by some finite percentage, the sum of which far exceeds > 100%. Kid, don't just *say* something and expect it to become true. Out of the long process of searching, I have finally got my t down to a very livable level but quantitatively speaking it does not exceed 100%. Thus what you have writen above is a sum of words and words and words, which in no way represents the reality that I have been experiencing.
> It worries me that newbies with tinnitus might actually subsist on black > beans or waste their money (or their government's money) on treatments that > you once described as a panacea but now know don't work. (1)When did I describe it as a panacea? (2)Where have I said it does not work? Does the use of black beans help our kidney? Of course it does. Have I said it does not.
Something is not necessarily true simply because you open up you month and *say* something. You need not be worried about the newbies on taking beans. You may want to be worried about their use of aprazolam and in particular your own anti-intellectual attitude.
Yes, you will
> claim they work for some, or that they worked for someone you know, but > frankly, that isn't good enough. Not good enough to who? To you or to anyone around? What is good enough? You are throwing around words and words as if you have a lot to say while you don't.
> Habituation won't work for you as long as you continue to jump from one > "remedy" to another, How the hell do you know that: (1)i have not been habituating either willingly or out of no choice? (2)how do you know that it has not worked for me? (3)should I have stopped all that i have gone through? would you have guaranteed the results would have been better if I had stopped somewhere?
always monitoring your tinnitus looking for a
> percentage improvement. Tinnitus is so variable as to render short term > observation meaningless. Words...words...words... After all, I don;t blame you. You are just a kid, and intellectually speaking you are one.
FP
francispoon - 13 Oct 2004 04:24 GMT > >> > Months ago when I brought up the idea that the traditional Chinese > >> > medical practioners have been pointing, for _thousands of years_, to [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > know what I am talking about. But, I don't expect you to listen to me or to > anyone else who tries to give you advise. That is not true. I do bring ideas and discuss them with doctors and allow them to filter out the ideas.
Thank you for keeping a record of what I have gone through since my t started. The record is pretty thorough and it shows the amount of suffering I have gone through while I was under the care of the licensed doctors. Though currently i am a better doctor than many of them in some areas, they are still licensed while i am not. A licensed doctor gives patients confidence ...until it does not work. So you are not blaming on me for having not listened to you.
FP =======================================
> Afterall, this has been your treatments thus far: > [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > > I didn't.
> *´¨) > . ·´ ¸.·*¨) ¸.·*¨) ¸.·*¨) > (¸.·´ (¸.*´ ¸.·´ `·-* * Patty * `·-* francispoon - 13 Oct 2004 04:56 GMT "Patty" <zippitydoda@doda.org> wrote in message news:<ckd557 snipped... months ago, concerning the use of diuretics. It stated that diuretics can
> cause a depletion of potassium and not only damage your kidneys but also > affect the heart and cause cramps in the leg muscles....among other > undesirable conditions. But, you were determined to use them Something is not necessarily true simply because you *said* it. My 'doctorS' at that time were randomly prescribing me medication in order to control my blood pressure. Diuretic was one of them. Should I have been _determined_ enough in not listening to their advice but sticking to yours?
and continued
> to experiment with all manner of unconventional treatments. (1)experiment? I was not a ginie pig. I was continuously treated by _licensed_ doctors. (2)unconventional treatment???? I wish I had sticked to the "uncon.." as opposed to the conventional. Out of the conventional one was ATIVAN.
Why don't you
> (one of the simple folks) open up *your* mind and listen to what others try > to tell you? I have been listening to what *others* have been telling me. But my doctors have the final say in what I should take and not take. Is that how we should respond to how *others* have to say?
FP
Jim Chinnis - 13 Oct 2004 15:08 GMT fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part:
>But my >doctors have the final say in what I should take and not take. Actually, for myself, *I'm* the final say.
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
francispoon - 13 Oct 2004 20:23 GMT > fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part: > > >But my > >doctors have the final say in what I should take and not take. > > Actually, for myself, *I'm* the final say. You are a professional while most of us are not. For myself, I have to lean on a medical authority for what i do in relation to my ill. If one authority does not work, i switch to another.
FP
Charge it to the kids - 13 Oct 2004 22:06 GMT >> fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > FP I have some bad news for you Francis: There is no cure for tinnitus. You have probably seen a dozen or more doctors so far, at least that is what it seems from reading your posts. If this quest starts to seem futile, we can probably help you habituate your tinnitus.
francispoon - 14 Oct 2004 04:32 GMT > >> fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part: > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I have some bad news for you Francis: There is no cure for tinnitus. But there is treatment. Right? And it is the treatment that has helped me 'habituate'. Right?
You
> have probably seen a dozen or more doctors so far, at least that is what it > seems from reading your posts. If this quest starts to seem futile, we can > probably help you habituate your tinnitus. Charge it to the kids - 14 Oct 2004 04:48 GMT >> >> fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part: >> >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> can >> probably help you habituate your tinnitus. There are no drugs, herbs, or procedures that cure tinnitus. Various treatments seem to help some people but the evidence of this is purely anecdotal and no treatment has been found better than placebo or the slow ticking of the clock. Habituation is not facilitated by drugs. It is facilitated by attitude adjustment in conjunction with relaxation techniques and distraction. All of these are free of cost and free of side effects. The vast majority of tinnitus sufferers spontaneously habituate in about a year. Tinnitus Retraining Therapy employs these techniques in combination with a masking device however the success rate of TRT is difficult, if not impossible to distinguish from spontaneous habituation. It is likely that had you spent the past year working on habituation techniques, your tinnitus would be neither louder nor softer than it is today but you would probably go for days or weeks at a time without noticing it.
francispoon - 14 Oct 2004 20:19 GMT > >> >> fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) wrote in part: > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > There are no drugs, herbs, or procedures that cure tinnitus. Go into this site yet? http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=kidney+and+tinnitus&ei=UTF-8&cop=mss&toggl e=1&u=www.itmonline.org/arts/tinmen.htm&w=kidney+tinnitus&d=79D762920C&icp=1&.in tl=us
There is a controlled study there!
Various
> treatments seem to help some people but the evidence of this is purely > anecdotal and no treatment has been found better than placebo or the slow [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > today but you would probably go for days or weeks at a time without noticing > it. Use both medicine and TRT.
ENTconsult - 15 Oct 2004 17:59 GMT It is facilitated by attitude adjustment in conjunction with relaxation techniques and distraction.
Very true. Virtually most of the firemen and police officers develop tinnitus. But when they do they ask "old Sarge" or "old Bill" about it and they laugh and say everyone gets it, "forget about it" and so they do. I rarely see a policeman or fireman seekng treatment for T. On the other hand, when it comes on unexpectedly and there is time for anxiety reinforcement, then the problem is amplified by the limbic system. Not so much now, but we used to have regulars here who were obviously amplifying their own condition and increasing their own anxiety levels and making their symptoms much worse. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com
francispoon - 16 Oct 2004 04:51 GMT > It is facilitated by attitude adjustment in conjunction with relaxation > techniques and distraction. Actually the t sound did not bother me that much. It was the somatic discomfort in the head, the heart and the stomach that did. I think I had been suffering from ills *other than* tinnitus prior to that accupuncture treatment.
FP -----------------------------
> Very true. Virtually most of the firemen and police officers develop tinnitus. > But when they do they ask "old Sarge" or "old Bill" about it and they laugh and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com
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