Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / August 2004
TINNITUS RESEARCH ON ANIMALS? IS IT POSSIBLE?
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Francisco Urbano Garc?a - 26 Jul 2004 08:25 GMT Hi, I am one more desperate tinnitus sufferer. I understand that one of the main difficulties to investigate tinnitus is the impossibility of do research on animals. The reason seems to be that you cannot determine how the animals feel their tinnitus. Asking Mr. Mice if he feels better today is not an option. At first that seemed pretty obvious to me too but, the thing is that I've come up with an experiment design that would allow research on animals and, therefore, do some investigations that, otherwise, would be impossible.
I am not an expert on this field so may be researchers already experiment on animals, or maybe the technique I am about to explain has some flaw. But I just want to help and I would really appreciate your comments about it.
Regards,
Francisco Urbano Garc?a
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Experiment design to test treatments on animals to improve Tinnitus symptoms
The basis of the experiment rely on training lab animals to recognize different intensities of noise so that they can recognize different intensities of tinnitus. One first approach could be like this:
1.. We get, let's say, 100 lab animals to do a double blind study for tinnitus. 2.. The animals will be introduced in a noisy environment with four different classes of noises: i. Silence.
ii. Low intensity noise.
iii. Medium intensity noise.
iv. High intensity noise.
3.. The animals will be locked up in a box with just four doors, and each door will be assigned to a different level of noise. Then, when the animals want some food they have to choose the right door or, otherwise, they'll get a little electric charge. 4.. After some time, the animals will choose correctly the door with food at all times, avoiding this way the electric punishment. Once the animals are trained their hearing will be damaged (e.g. chemicals, surgery, sound explosion. ) in order to produce them a tinnitus. 5.. Finally, the animals will be left out in their boxes in complete silence, and every time they choose a door for food they will get it no matter what.
Therefore, from now on, by studying which door the animal chooses, we will be able to determined how high its tinnitus is. Now the animal tell us at all times how its tinnitus evolves. If it is high it will choose the high intensity door to get its food, if it is cured he will choose the silence door and so on.
The final stage would be to carry out experiments on half of them to see if their tinnitus improves compared to the other half.
Smarty pants - 26 Jul 2004 16:02 GMT > Hi, I am one more desperate tinnitus sufferer. I understand that one of the > main difficulties to investigate tinnitus is the impossibility of do [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > The final stage would be to carry out experiments on half of them to see if > their tinnitus improves compared to the other half. Oh sure, let's give them tinnitus too. Tinnitus can be induced with large doses of aspirin.
Jim Chinnis - 26 Jul 2004 16:04 GMT "Francisco Urbano García" <francisco.urbano@upc.es> wrote in part:
>Hi, I am one more desperate tinnitus sufferer. I understand that one of the >main difficulties to investigate tinnitus is the impossibility of do [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >animals, or maybe the technique I am about to explain has some flaw. But I >just want to help and I would really appreciate your comments about it. Researchers have done research of this type using animals. It is a standard behavioral science technique. Unfortunately, animal research, especially the kind that requires training, is very expensive.
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
PaulS - 26 Jul 2004 19:52 GMT There are animal models. Some of the early ones assessed tinntus annoyance by corrrelating the number of times the animals "pawed their ears" after aspirin administration with the extent of damage to the ear hair cells.
Some newer animal models have been developed but I have not looked at them and can't comment. So, here are the links FYI
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/04/040407081712.htm
http://www.emoryhealthcare.org/departments/tinnitus/patient_info/patient_guide.h tml#AnimalModel
PaulS
Francisco Urbano Garc?a - 27 Jul 2004 08:34 GMT Really interesting. Thank you.
> There are animal models. Some of the early ones assessed tinntus annoyance > by corrrelating the number of times the animals "pawed their ears" after [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/04/040407081712.htm http://www.emoryhealthcare.org/departments/tinnitus/patient_info/patient_guide.h tml#AnimalModel
> PaulS G. Innipig - 26 Jul 2004 21:45 GMT > Hi, I am one more desperate tinnitus sufferer. I understand that one of the > main difficulties to investigate tinnitus is the impossibility of do > research on animals. The reason seems to be that you cannot determine how Surely the problem here is that we don't know what causes tinnitus. Certainly, it may be *induced* with aspirin or a visit to a loud rock concert, but they are not the general *causes* of it for ordinary everyday tinnitus sufferers. I don't take aspirin, and my days of concerts are long past, yet I am an occasional sufferer.
We can't experiment on animals unless we know what really causes it, otherwise any findings upon artificially induced tinnitus would be false.
Susan - 26 Jul 2004 21:52 GMT >Surely the problem here is that we don't know what causes tinnitus. >Certainly, it may be *induced* with aspirin or a visit to a loud rock >concert, but they are not the general *causes* of it for ordinary everyday >tinnitus sufferers. I don't take aspirin, and my days of concerts are long >past, yet I am an occasional sufferer. I think that the fact that the damage tends to be cumulative, re: noise exposure, your long ago rock concerts could still be the cause.
>We can't experiment on animals unless we know what really causes it, >otherwise any findings upon artificially induced tinnitus would be false. Sure we can. We don't have to know *how* damage occurs to know that it has occurred. In my case, it's related to infectious disease, and responds to antibiotics, as it did for my child, who was cured of it with antimicrobials.
The perception of sound is what's studied, even though it has multiple causes.
Susan
been_there_done_that - 30 Jul 2004 15:06 GMT > Hi, I am one more desperate tinnitus sufferer. I understand that one of the > main difficulties to investigate tinnitus is the impossibility of do [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > The final stage would be to carry out experiments on half of them to see if > their tinnitus improves compared to the other half. Your suggestion is reminiscent of Ivan Pavlov's 'conditioned reflex' study.
PaulS - 30 Jul 2004 21:20 GMT > Your suggestion is reminiscent of Ivan Pavlov's 'conditioned reflex' study. Is that bad?
PaulS
been_there_done_that - 31 Jul 2004 01:24 GMT > > Your suggestion is reminiscent of Ivan Pavlov's 'conditioned reflex' > study. > > Is that bad? > > PaulS No, it isn't bad. It just came to mind as I read the proposed study on animals.
btdt
Smarty pants - 31 Jul 2004 02:03 GMT > > > Your suggestion is reminiscent of Ivan Pavlov's 'conditioned reflex' > > study. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > btdt Maybe the government will fund such a study. After all:
"Just remember it's the birds that's supposed to suffer, not the hunter."
-George W. Bush, advising quail hunter and New Mexico Sen. Pete Domenici, Roswell, N.M., Jan. 22, 2004
PaulS - 31 Jul 2004 03:41 GMT > No, it isn't bad. It just came to mind as I read the proposed study on > animals. > > btdt Its an interesting notion, at least to me. I wonder if such conditioning can be used to reduce tinnitus-associated anxiety. Or even if similar mechanisms are operative using TRT or Neuromonics, etc.
We can exclude Eerie Wax supppositories however. I shudder to imagine what operant training is going on in that scenario !!
PaulS
Smarty pants - 31 Jul 2004 04:18 GMT > > No, it isn't bad. It just came to mind as I read the proposed study on > > animals. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > PaulS The EERIE Wax suppositories, roughly the size of codfish head, would be difficult to administer.
PaulS - 31 Jul 2004 18:28 GMT "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message news:ncEOc.23$8%
> The EERIE Wax suppositories, roughly the size of codfish head, would be > difficult to administer. Geez, then how'd you get them in your ears ;-)
Smarty pants - 31 Jul 2004 21:28 GMT > "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message news:ncEOc.23$8% > > > The EERIE Wax suppositories, roughly the size of codfish head, would be > > difficult to administer. > > Geez, then how'd you get them in your ears ;-) I'd run the attached string through to the far ear, tie it to a doorknob and wait. By the way, I learned the hard way that you have be on the right side of the door.
PaulS - 31 Jul 2004 23:22 GMT "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message news:ohTOc.44$8%
> I'd run the attached string through to the far ear, tie it to a doorknob and > wait. By the way, I learned the hard way that you have be on the right side > of the door.
:-) ENTconsult - 31 Jul 2004 18:17 GMT Its an interesting notion, at least to me. I wonder if such conditioning can be used to reduce tinnitus-associated anxiety. Or even if similar mechanisms
most symptomatic T is associated with anxiety reinforcement. Whatever reduces that helps the patient EMG biofeedback, Cognitive therapy Exercise Yoga Xanax A vacation
whatever breaks the anxiety reingorcement helps.
Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com
PaulS - 31 Jul 2004 18:32 GMT > Its an interesting notion, at least to me. I wonder if such conditioning can > be used to reduce tinnitus-associated anxiety. Or even if similar mechanisms [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Xanax > A vacation Murray, true, they all work. But which ones by the principles embodied in "conditioned reflexes"?
PaulS
ENTconsult - 01 Aug 2004 17:46 GMT Conditioned refelx is not tinnitus. when you hear the dinner bell your stomach starts makng digestive juices. When the alarm clock rings you get up. When the phone rings you pick it up. That's conditioned reflex. When the phone rings and you break into a sweat and your heart pounds, that's not a conditioned reflex. that's an anxiety response modified by your limbic system. and if each time the phone rings, you get more anxious and more nervous, that's anxiety re-inforcement.
Tinnitus is not a conditioned reflex. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com
Jim Chinnis - 02 Aug 2004 02:51 GMT entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in part:
>Conditioned refelx is not tinnitus. >when you hear the dinner bell your stomach starts makng digestive juices. When >the alarm clock rings you get up. When the phone rings you pick it up. That's >conditioned reflex. None of those are reflexes. They are sometimes conditioned responses, though.
>When the phone rings and you break into a sweat and your heart pounds, that's >not a conditioned reflex. that's an anxiety response modified by your limbic >system. It can indeed be a conditioned response.
>and if each time the phone rings, you get more anxious and more nervous, >that's anxiety re-inforcement. The anxiety reinforcement occurs only if the phone causes anxiety to be rewarded. Otherwise, extinction should occur.
>Tinnitus is not a conditioned reflex. It's not a reflex of any sort. But it could possibly be perpetuated by anxiety as a conditioned response.
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
Smarty pants - 02 Aug 2004 03:40 GMT > entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > It's not a reflex of any sort. But it could possibly be perpetuated by anxiety > as a conditioned response. Yes, but you can't reinforce a conditioned extinction.
ENTconsult - 02 Aug 2004 16:46 GMT The anxiety reinforcement occurs only if the phone causes anxiety to be rewarded. Otherwise, extinction should occur.
Jim, can't agree. Patients are not rewarded for anxiety re-inforcement. Often it is a crippling life altering condition as the person who can't leave their home. Probably chemicals are involved since Xanax is ofter therapeutic. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com
Jim Chinnis - 02 Aug 2004 17:31 GMT entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in part:
>The anxiety reinforcement occurs only if the phone causes anxiety to be >rewarded. Otherwise, extinction should occur. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Murray Grossan, M.D. >http://www.ent-consult.com I think we're not using the words in the same way, Murray. I think that anxiety can become associated with tinnitus and a vicious cycle can ensue. I agree with you that biofeedback and other methods that can reduce the association can help.
I was just disagreeing with your use of the term "reflex." Reinforcement of a conditioned response can occur in many ways and not by what a non-psychologist would call a "reward."
Jim
 Signature Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG
been_there_done_that - 02 Aug 2004 18:22 GMT > entconsult@aol.comnospam wrote in part: > I think we're not using the words in the same way, Murray. I think that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Jim To further complicate matters, the effectiveness of a reinforcer (reward), of course, depends on the individual. Listening to loud music is a great reward for some people; it's punishment for others. Accumulating a lot of money is critical for some and rather meaningless for others. Likewise, failure affects us differently. If you are success-oriented, a failure experience seems to increase your drive to succeed and you will try again to accomplish the task. If personality-wise you focus primarily on avoiding failure, a failure is too punishing and you lose interest in the task; you won't try it again. It may surprise you but rewards will, strangely enough, sometimes *reduce* the frequency of the preceding behavior, i.e., the effects of punishment. There is reason to suppose that emotional reactions, thoughts, attitudes, and physiological processes are also affected by reinforcers. btdt
Smarty pants - 02 Aug 2004 19:39 GMT > entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Jim There is a single stimulus, the onset of tinnitus, and a response to that stimulus.
If the response to the onset of tinnitus is anxiety leading to examination by a qualified professional to rule out an acoustic neuroma, it is useful. I say the anxiety response is conditioned by knowledge, reinforced by encouragement or (shudder) suppressed by drugs.
People don't anticipate the onset of tinnitus and don't develop (condition) a targeted response. In my opinion they respond as to a burn or a broken arm. Their response will depend on inherited qualities and life experiences. Some will just deal with it, some will go over the edge.
As we've observed here, the onset of tinnitus is sometimes associated with other trauma; related or coincidental, real or imagined. Nobody ever said participating in a support group was easy. :-)
Bill
PaulS - 02 Aug 2004 04:35 GMT > Tinnitus is not a conditioned reflex. > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com Agreed! I was suggesting a role for conditioned reflexes (or associative learning or operant conditioned, etc.) in tools/processes used to reduce tinnitus-associated anxiety.
PaulS
Smarty pants - 02 Aug 2004 05:46 GMT > > Tinnitus is not a conditioned reflex. > > Murray Grossan, M.D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > PaulS From what I've experience, the anxiety is worse than the noise. Overcoming anxiety is a necessary step toward habituation. Anxiety is best reduce through acceptance. Acceptance is gained through knowledge. Know it won't kill you. Know there isn't a cure. Know habituation is possible.
been_there_done_that - 02 Aug 2004 16:38 GMT > > > Tinnitus is not a conditioned reflex. > > > Murray Grossan, M.D. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > through acceptance. Acceptance is gained through knowledge. Know it won't > kill you. Know there isn't a cure. Know habituation is possible. Behaviors that are classically conditioned are those which involve the learning of involuntary responses -- responses over which the learner has no control and to which he or she responds reflexively or "automatically."
In classical conditioning, behaviors are increased in one of two ways: 1. repeated practice and positive reinforcement: more pairings (of neutral stimuli with unconditioned stimuli), which can include drill-and-practice (i.e., additional training) but also includes rewarding the desired behavior, positive reinforcement (e.g., trying to build an association between desired behavior and pleasure of the reward) 2. stronger reinforcement: stronger unconditioned stimuli (i.e., traumatic events) produce stronger conditioning
There are several ways to change inappropriate conditioned responses: 1. extinguishing: stop pairing the response with the stimulus in order to extinguish the linkage (this is the mildest method, and least reliable because of speed, avoidance, and spontaneous recovery) 2. counter conditioning: replacing one conditioned response with a new, more beneficial conditioned response (tends to be more effective than extinction, also decreases chance of spontaneous recovery of previous conditioning); includes two forms, depending on desired outcome 3. eliminating the response to the stimulus: through *systematic desensitization*, where the object is to eliminate the response -- classic treatment for phobias and other anxiety responses using the *threshold method* of presenting the stimulus so faintly at first that the individual doesn't respond to it in the habitual manner -- then increasing the intensity of the stimulus so gradually that the individual continues to *not* respond 4. exhaustion: keep repeating the stimulus until the individual is too tired to respond in the habitual way; the intent is to get the response to the stimulus to become "doing nothing" or "not responding" to the stimulus.
Classical conditioning is a major factor in real life. It's a fundamental part of all forms of animal training (including some forms of human training). Its primary use in human behavior is in dealing with habit formation, either trying (1) to form good habits (enjoying exercising, positive thoughts vs. negative thoughts, for ex. "My tinnitus will *never* allow me to lead a normal life....replaced with "My tinnitus will *not* control me.", creating a persistent, positive environment, etc.) or (2) to break bad ones (listening to loud music, being a victim of self inflicted worry or anxiety, etc.), including phobias or anxiety-producing conditioning.
Yes, you are correct, Murray. Tinnitus is NOT a conditioned reflex. Pavlov's study was just a parallel observation. Those who suffer from tinnitus-associated anxiety (conditioned reflex) *could* benefit from behavior changes, cognitive therapy, medication (when medical necessity is established), knowledge, etc. But, most importantly....only through acceptance will these various methods be beneficial.
btdt
ENTconsult - 03 Aug 2004 08:02 GMT counter conditioning: replacing one conditioned response with a new, more beneficial conditioned response (tends to be more effective than extinction, also decreases chance of spontaneous recovery of previous conditioning); includes two forms, depending on desired outcome
In EMG biofeedback we have the Tinnitus be the stimulus to relax Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com
PaulS - 03 Aug 2004 02:03 GMT > From what I've experience, the anxiety is worse than the noise. Overcoming > anxiety is a necessary step toward habituation Oh so right you are!
> Anxiety is best reduce through acceptance. Acceptance is gained through knowledge.
> Know it won't kill you. Know there isn't a cure. Know habituation is possible.
Acceptance helps and is essential but not sure I agree that active acceptance is the initial stimulus to habituate. Most can't will themselves to accept it. They have to experience the fact that tinnitus will not kill, will not interfere with certain activities (e.g., sex). Then that experience, no matter how small, reinforces the habituation process and reinforces acceptance. Some positive experience, I think, must occur first.
PaulS "Pavlov Reincarnated"
Smarty pants - 03 Aug 2004 02:34 GMT > > From what I've experience, the anxiety is worse than the noise. Overcoming > > anxiety is a necessary step toward habituation [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > PaulS "Pavlov Reincarnated" We agree Paul. I think those "positive experiences" you mention tend to sneak up when we aren't expecting them. Certainly there were many times when I didn't notice my tinnitus before it dawned on me that I was habituating it. In fact, I remember the day that I first realized I hadn't noticed it for a while and finally appreciated the effectiveness of distration.
Patty - 03 Aug 2004 04:27 GMT > > > From what I've experience, the anxiety is worse than the noise. > Overcoming [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > noticed it for a while and finally appreciated the effectiveness of > distration. I suppose I'm on my way to habituation as I have longer periods of 'not noticing' my tinnitus. I've accepted tht it isn't going to kill me, there is no cure, and I don't dwell on it... as I once did. I use my own masking techniques and they seem to be helping. I remain hopeful that I, too, will someday not hear it for MUCH longer periods. Thank you Bill and Paul for all the advice and caring enough to offer suggestions. ~Patty~
PaulS - 03 Aug 2004 04:57 GMT > I suppose I'm on my way to habituation as I have longer periods of 'not > noticing' my tinnitus. I've accepted tht it isn't going to kill me, there > is no cure, and I don't dwell on it... as I once did. I use my own masking > techniques and they seem to be helping. . Baby steps, right :-)
> I remain hopeful that I, too, will someday not hear it for MUCH longer periods
You will!
> Thank you Bill and Paul for all the advice and caring enough to offer suggestions.
Well, I think Bill and so many others would agree that we've been there, and occasionally fall back, but having support is important. So giving it is an easy thing to do.
Geez, I'm getting that Kumbaya feeling....yeech ;-)
PaulS
PaulS - 03 Aug 2004 04:51 GMT "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message news:pYBPc.14
> We agree Paul. I think those "positive experiences" you mention tend to > sneak up when we aren't expecting them. Certainly there were many times > when I didn't notice my tinnitus before it dawned on me that I was > habituating it. In fact, I remember the day that I first realized I hadn't > noticed it for a while and finally appreciated the effectiveness of > distration. Bill, I only hope that "newbies" read what you just wrote. The process is subtle as you indicate and takes some time.
PaulS
ENTconsult - 04 Aug 2004 07:19 GMT the fact is that you can't have anxiety if your muscles are relaxed. That's why you put sensors on the muscles to measure electrcal output. If you can reduce the electrical output your muscles are relaxed adn no anxiety. that's why EMG biofeedback works. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com
ENTconsult - 02 Aug 2004 16:52 GMT Agreed! I was suggesting a role for conditioned reflexes (or associative learning or operant conditioned, etc.) in tools/processes used to reduce tinnitus-associated anxiety.
EMG biofeedback works well for this.
By way of explanation you can scratch because it itches or you can have treamendous anxiety because it itches, and the more you scratch the more it itches, etc. This is exactly what happens when the New Yorker who lives on the lower floor apartment with sirens and traffic all night drives to Chicago and stops at Motel 6 where it is absolutely quiet. Suddenly he hears Tinnitus. If he goes into an anxiety re -inforcement response then the T gets worse. He may cancel his trip and head back home and the delay in seeing a doctor may make him even worse. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com
ENTconsult - 31 Jul 2004 18:14 GMT Any study that has to do with hearing can help in tinnitus research. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com
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