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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Tinnitus / July 2004Does Ginkgo Biloba help?
There are all sorts of naked oil pushers in the world. Ideologies, religions...etc could also contain 'naked oil' elements. But the more relevant aspect is how an individual _feels or believes_ after taking in the pusher. The feeling could be 'imaginary' in nature or real in terms of being 'scientific'. Tinnitus sound could also be 'imaginary', otherwise so many TNT programs would not have surfaced to help overcome this 'imaginary' sound. I would suggest that as long as the consequences are REVERSIBLE, try it. I am taking a tablet of 500 mg of dried gingko leaf daily and have found, by imagination or otherwise, they do help me. These pills are manufactured by 21 st Century of Arizona. On the bottle, it is writen 'dietary supplement'. I don't think a company like 21 st Century would run the risk of being sued for having produced a product like that. By the way, there is no shortage of studies ...and extensive studies that one could find in the search engine of Yahoo. Some speak in favor of while others against gingko. If anyone experiences discomfort after taking gingko, just drop it right away. I don't see how it could kill by such a brief encounter. On the other hand, you might run into something that helps. FP Does Ginkgo Biloba help? Group: alt.support.tinnitus Date: Tue, Jul 20, 2004, 12:08am From: fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) There are all sorts of naked oil pushers in the world. Ideologies, religions...etc could also contain 'naked oil' elements. But the more relevant aspect is how an individual _feels or believes_ after taking in the pusher. The feeling could be 'imaginary' in nature or real in terms of being 'scientific'. Tinnitus sound could also be 'imaginary', otherwise so many TNT programs would not have surfaced to help overcome this 'imaginary' sound. I would suggest that as long as the consequences are REVERSIBLE, try it. I am taking a tablet of 500 mg of dried gingko leaf daily and have found, by imagination or otherwise, they do help me. These pills are manufactured by 21 st Century of Arizona. On the bottle, it is writen 'dietary supplement'. I don't think a company like 21 st Century would run the risk of being sued for having produced a product like that. By the way, there is no shortage of studies ...and extensive studies that one could find in the search engine of Yahoo. Some speak in favor of while others against gingko. If anyone experiences discomfort after taking gingko, just drop it right away. I don't see how it could kill by such a brief encounter. On the other hand, you might run into something that helps. FP -------------------------------------------------------------- The thing is, you do not really know, just how much Ginkgo is in the product. There might be only a minute amount, or there may be too much, or none at all. And the US Federal Government does not regulate dietary supplements like this. So you are taking the companys word for it, that what they say is in it, really is. I think Consumer Reports did a study to see just how much of the Herb Ginseng was in all the products on the market. Only a few actually had what they said they had in the pills. Most of them only had a minute amount, or "none" at all. So unless you go out, and test the Ginkgo product yourself, you really will not know what is in the pills. And I really doubt that very many "Dietary Supplement" companies get sued, it would be too hard to prove anything! > fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) > There are all sorts of naked oil pushers in the world..... Disgusting! They should wear clothing. PaulS >>fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) >>There are all sorts of naked oil pushers in the world..... > > Disgusting! They should wear clothing. > > PaulS And those crazy Jains in India, who respect life so much they wear masks so they won't ingest insects, who practice Ahimsa. If you harm others, you harm yourself. If you harm yourself, you harm others. Do no harm. These loonies, after a long productive life, when all their responsibilities are finished with, give away all their belongings, even their clothing, and become naked priests, and travel by foot from village to village accepting the charity of strangers, preaching soft rules like Ahimsa. Disgusting. Oh, now that I've thought about it, that sounds like a pretty soft life... :-) > > fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) > > There are all sorts of naked oil pushers in the world..... > > Disgusting! They should wear clothing. > > PaulS LOL Paul. You caught that to! ~Patty~ >LOL Paul. You caught that to! sh.t, I didn't know it was going around. Better take some vitamin C. Susan "Susan " <sufein@aol.comnospam> wrote in message > sh.t, I didn't know it was going around. Better take some vitamin C. Susan, it still won't help the "naked" part ....or as they say in this here parts - nekked ;-). PaulS > > > fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) > > > There are all sorts of naked oil pushers in the world..... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > LOL Paul. You caught that to! > ~Patty~ Obviously none of you have ever tried to get that oil out of your clothes. You wouldn't be so smug. Bruce shutup Bruce you'll give yourself a nosebleed. Bruce/Seattle wrote in message <6f977e53.0407221345.71322f09@posting.google.com>... >> > > fyfpoon@hotmail.com (francispoon) >> > > There are all sorts of naked oil pushers in the world..... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Bruce > shutup Bruce you'll give yourself a nosebleed. I understand that's the terminology the big kids use in the schoolyards in these times what with the liability laws as they are now. The days of a boastful "I'll punch you in the nose" are a thing of the past. I know one kid who lost his complete Nintendo system in a lawsuit. It was ugly. They're offering insurance courses in elementary schools for those who wish to become class bullies. There was 2nd grader who goes by Ironballs Murphy LLC. Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself while dropping off my son and his security companions the other day. Bruce "Bruce/Seattle" <EERIEWAX@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Obviously none of you have ever tried to get that > oil out of your clothes. You wouldn't be so smug. How do YOU do it ;-) PaulS ps - good to see you back MagicMan! > Does Ginkgo Biloba help? > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > The thing is, you do not really know, just how much Ginkgo is in the > product. That belongs to another issue or to the issue of fakery. There are faked epitors too but it does not mean epitor does not work in reducing your cholestrol. FP =========================== There might be only a minute amount, or there may be too much, > or none at all. And the US Federal Government does not regulate dietary > supplements like this. So you are taking the companys word for it, that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > what is in the pills. And I really doubt that very many "Dietary > Supplement" companies get sued, it would be too hard to prove anything! <snip> > By the way, there is no shortage of studies ...and extensive studies > that one could find in the search engine of Yahoo. Some speak in favor > of while others against gingko. <snip> > FP Tell us, Francis, how many of these are controlled, double-blind studies involving large numbers of tinnitus sufferers? After all, such studies would be the only ones to yield meaningful results. What were the results? From what I find, there was only one such study and the results demonstrate ginkgo to be neither more nor less effective than placebo. Can you point us to another such study that proved it's effectiveness? If not, there is no scientific basis for treating tinnitus with ginkgo. > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > to another such study that proved it's effectiveness? If not, there is no > scientific basis for treating tinnitus with ginkgo. Anecdotal Evidence. The ancient grandmother of a friend suffered from bursitis of the shoulder. She was in constant, intense pain. In agony, one day, she prayed to the Lord Jesus, being a good Catholic lady. She prayed, "Lord, tell me what to do to lessen the pain." She says she heard a clear voice, the voice of Almighty God Himself in Jesus Christ, and the voice said, "Try ice." Well, she tried ice, and it worked! Praise God! Best, scp >By the way, there is no shortage of studies ...and extensive studies >>that one could find in the search engine of Yahoo. Some speak in favor >>of while others against gingko. You know they have been studying SERC - betahistine for Tinnitus for decades and they still haven't a clue whether it works or not. Evaluating anything for T is very very tough. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in part: >You know they have been studying SERC - betahistine for Tinnitus for decades >and they still haven't a clue whether it works or not. There's not much data from controlled studies. And what there is seems to support little if any effect, even in cases of hydrops. >Evaluating anything for T is very very tough. Yes. But not impossible. And a treatment that had a huge effect and came close to a cure should be pretty easy to confirm in a relatively small, inexpensive study. The problem with current pharmaceutical/herbal remedies is that they either have relatively small or non-existent effects. It requires a very well-designed study with a large number of patients to find those small effects, if they exist. (Xanax may be the only exception so far, and there the study showing a pretty big effect wasn't blinded.)  SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG what is betahistine ? I have never heard of it before? Jim Chinnis wrote in message ... >entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA >Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG Oh Serc..yes I have tried that..did nothing for me. >what is betahistine ? I have never heard of it before? >Jim Chinnis wrote in message ... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA >>Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG sorry just me again..what is Xanax? sound like an antidepressant. >what is betahistine ? I have never heard of it before? >Jim Chinnis wrote in message ... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA >>Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG "Jennifer Bell" <starwood@iprimus.com.au> wrote in part: >sorry just me again..what is Xanax? sound like an antidepressant. It's a drug usually prescribed for anxiety. it is not an anti-depressant. Generic name is alprazolam. (Sorry I used the US trade name.) SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > "Jennifer Bell" <starwood@iprimus.com.au> wrote in part: > >>sorry just me again..what is Xanax? sound like an antidepressant. > > It's a drug usually prescribed for anxiety. it is not an anti-depressant. Xanax (alprazolam) is a benzodiazepine like Valium (diazapam), but unlike Valium, Xanax is metabolized quicker if taken at night and doesn't give you that hangover feeling in the morning like Valium does. All benzodiazepines are potentially addictive and tolerance to them builds up quickly. People who take large doses of Xanax daily over a long period of time will have severe withdrawal symptoms and should not stop taking them cold turkey. My personal experience is that Xanax (.5 mg) does help with my T at night, but I don't like to depend on taking it to sleep. I just haven't found an effective replacement for it. I haven't tried ginko biloba. I don't know if it will help. Maybe it helps with certain types of T. My T is weird. Yesterday, I went to the dentist for a routine cleaning, and last night, my T was much more annoying than usual. I also had a headache so I might have just been fatigued. After a good night's sleep, my T is less noticable. By the end of the day, though, my T will be louder. That seems to be the pattern. Glynne who anyone first timers going to try Ginko, I will tell you what my nayuropath told me..it takes 6 weeks to have its full effect so dont just take it 2 times and say it didnt work, stick it out a bit, as long as your feeling ok with it, >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >Glynne > who anyone first timers going to try Ginko, I will tell you what my > nayuropath told me..it takes 6 weeks to have its full effect so dont just > take it 2 times and say it didnt work, stick it out a bit, as long as your > feeling ok with it, Sounds good to me. How many bongs of ginkgo should one smoke in a day? I have a small bong, just a little bigger than my one-eee. "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message > > .... I have a small bong...... Sure glad this isn't alt.pictures.tinnitus :-) PaulS > who anyone first timers going to try Ginko, I will tell you what my > nayuropath told me..it takes 6 weeks to have its full effect so dont just > take it 2 times and say it didnt work, stick it out a bit, as long as your > feeling ok with it, I understand how natural-type remedies work. They do take a long time to kick in. I'm taking glucosamine and chondroitin for osteoarthritis. I had to take supplements for six months before I noticed a difference, and I could get off prescription pain medication. I don't think the pain magically disappeared. There must be something to the supplements -- or else it's all in my head. Like the tinnitus: it's all in my head :-) Glynne Glynne Gilmore <glynnegilmore@netscape.net> wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Glynne A difference is that controlled studies have shown that glucosamine and chondroitin reduce pain of osteoarthritis. The same kind of studies found that ginkgo doesn;t help tinnitus. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > A difference is that controlled studies have shown that glucosamine and > chondroitin reduce pain of osteoarthritis. The same kind of studies found that > ginkgo doesn;t help tinnitus. Well, that's enough for me. I'll save my money. Are there any controlled studies of taking anything that helps tinnitus? Glynne Glynne Gilmore <glynnegilmore@netscape.net> wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Glynne Xanax (alprazolam). Not many things have been studied, though. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > Glynne Gilmore <glynnegilmore@netscape.net> wrote in part: > >>Are there any controlled studies of taking anything that helps tinnitus? > > Xanax (alprazolam). Not many things have been studied, though. I'm not surprised. Are the controlled studies on Xanax available to read online? Glynne >Are there any controlled studies of taking anything that helps tinnitus? Yes. Ask Assar to send you one. http://www.yts.se/english/index.htm Tinnitus is a pain in the neck Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ For email: elly at eebee.cjb.net >>Are there any controlled studies of taking anything that helps tinnitus? > > Yes. > Ask Assar to send you one. > http://www.yts.se/english/index.htm Thanks. I just wrote to him. Glynne Glynne Gilmore <glynnegilmore@netscape.net> wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Glynne Glynne, I thought you were referring to "taking" a drug or supplement, not undergoing other sorts of treatments. There have been some controlled studies done of tinnitus retraining therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, acupuncture, some surgical approaches, etc. You can actually find a number by using PubMed. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG [ ... ] > Glynne, I thought you were referring to "taking" a drug or > supplement, not undergoing other sorts of treatments. There have been > some controlled studies done of tinnitus retraining therapy, > cognitive behavioral therapy, acupuncture, some surgical approaches, > etc. You can actually find a number by using PubMed. I am interested in information about controlled studies that involve taking a drug or supplement to treat tinnitus. You mentioned one involving Xanax which I use on a low dosage basis to help take the edge off. I was wondering if I could read about that particular controlled study online and if there were any others that involved taking medication or natural remedies like ginko which you said there weren't. I wish that a magic pill existed to actually "cure" tinnitus and proven in controlled studies, but I know that is a pipe dream. Sorry about the confusion. Glynne Glynne Gilmore <glynnegilmore@netscape.net> wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Glynne There is still confusion. There's been a very large controlled study of ginkgo. See: Effectiveness of Ginkgo biloba in treating tinnitus: double blind, placebo controlled trial. Drew S, Davies E. Pharmacology Department, Division of Neuroscience, University of Birmingham, Birmingham B15 2TT, UK. s.j.drew@bham.ac.uk OBJECTIVE: To determine whether Ginkgo biloba is effective in treating tinnitus. DESIGN: Double blind, placebo controlled trial using postal questionnaires. PARTICIPANTS: 1121 healthy people aged between 18 and 70 years with tinnitus that was comparatively stable; 978 participants were matched (489 pairs). Intervention: 12 weeks' treatment with either 50 mg Ginkgo biloba extract LI 1370 three times daily or placebo. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Participants' assessment of tinnitus before, during, and after treatment. Questionnaires included items assessing perception of how loud and how troublesome tinnitus was. Changes in loudness were rated on a six point scale. Changes in how troublesome were rated on a five point scale. RESULTS: There were no significant differences in primary or secondary outcome measures between the groups. 34 of 360 participants receiving active treatment reported that their tinnitus was less troublesome after 12 weeks of treatment compared with 35 of 360 participants who took placebo. CONCLUSIONS: 50 mg Ginkgo biloba extract LI 1370 given 3 times daily for 12 weeks is no more effective than placebo in treating tinnitus. The study on Xanax is as follows: Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg. 1993 Aug;119(8):842-5. Use of alprazolam for relief of tinnitus. A double-blind study. Johnson RM, Brummett R, Schleuning A. Department of Otolaryngology, Oregon Health Sciences University, Portland. OBJECTIVE--To systematically test the effectiveness of alprazolam as a pharmacological agent for patients with tinnitus. DESIGN--Prospective, placebo-controlled, double-blind study. PATIENTS--Forty adult patients with constant tinnitus who had experienced their tinnitus for a minimum of 1 year and who resided in the Portland, Ore, metropolitan area. Twenty patients were randomly assigned to the experimental group and 20 to the control group. RESULTS--Seventeen of 20 patients in the experimental (alprazolam) group and 19 of the 20 in the placebo (lactose) group completed the study. Of the 17 patients receiving alprazolam, 13 (76%) had a reduction in the loudness of their tinnitus when measurements were made using a tinnitus synthesizer and a visual analog scale. Only one of the 19 who received the placebo showed any improvement in the loudness of their tinnitus. No changes were observed in the audiometric data or in tinnitus masking levels for either group. Individuals differed in the dosages required to achieve benefit from the alprazolam, and the side effects were minimal for this 12-week study. CONCLUSIONS--Alprazolam is a drug that will provide therapeutic relief for some patients with tinnitus. Regulation of the prescribed dosage of alprazolam is important since individuals differ considerably in sensitivity to this medication. The above are just the abstracts. I don't believe the full text of either study are available (for free) on the web. You can find them in just about any medical library. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > There is still confusion. There's been a very large controlled study of > ginkgo. See: [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > study are available (for free) on the web. You can find them in just about any > medical library. Okay. Thanks for the info. The only studies that involve taking a drug or supplement have been done with Xanax and ginko. Is that correct? Glynne >Okay. Thanks for the info. The only studies that involve taking a drug >or supplement have been done with Xanax and ginko. Is that correct? I think there may be studies of lidocaine and/or steroids? Susan Glynne Gilmore <glynnegilmore@netscape.net> wrote in part: >Okay. Thanks for the info. The only studies that involve taking a drug >or supplement have been done with Xanax and ginko. Is that correct? > >Glynne Not exactly. There are a lot of "studies," but not many controlled studies and only a handful of quality ones. Also, there are often studies aimed at hearing loss, Meniere's disease, or some other problem that report effects of the treatment on tinnitus. For instance, dexamethasone (a steroid) has been studied in a prospective, double-blinded trial for Meniere's disease and results (negative) were reported for tinnitus. Acupuncture (a procedure) has been studied in some very careful controlled trials and has been shown not to have an effect. Some low- to medium-quality trials have looked at tinnitus retraining therapy and found positive effects on tinnitus. (A much more extensive controlled trial should be reported this Fall.) For that matter, the new neuromonics sound enrichment protocol has been tested in a controlled trial (positive) and larger trials are planned or are underway, I believe. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > CONCLUSIONS: 50 mg Ginkgo biloba >extract LI 1370 given 3 times daily for 12 weeks is no more effective than >placebo in treating tinnitus. Which only tells us about this particular dose of whatever specific product was used in this study, and that this may be too short a time for results to be apparent. Maybe. I seem to recall that Dr. Nagler said that those considering use of ginkgo should use a brand called Ginkgold, since it was well documented as being standardized and containing what it said it contained. Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >Which only tells us about this particular dose of whatever specific product was >used in this study, and that this may be too short a time for results to be >apparent. >Maybe. Right. But there's no evidence that higher doses or longer periods of medicating work. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >Right. But there's no evidence that higher doses or longer periods of >medicating work. Agreed. No proof that it does, no evidence that it doesn't. No reason to disbelieve those who say it helps them, at this point. Susan sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >No reason to disbelieve those who say it helps them, at this point. I agree pretty much. Although when no effect whatsoever can be seen in a very large trial lasting 12 weeks, a drug is not usually tested at higher and higher doses in hopes of a sudden change. (Particularly when those doses have a risk of cerebral hemorrhage.) The dose selected was actually the one recommended by the manufacturer of the ginkgo used (Ginkgold, as I recall). I could think of better things to try, all things considered. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I could think of better things to try, all things considered. I've been toying with the idea of taking ginko, but I would not like to take it in large doses. Ginkgo seems cost effective, though, IF it worked. What kinds of better things would you suggest that would be affordable and not time-consuming for the average tinnitus sufferer? Glynne >I've been toying with the idea of taking ginko, but I would not like to >take it in large doses. Ginkgo seems cost effective, though, IF it >worked. What kinds of better things would you suggest that would be >affordable and not time-consuming for the average tinnitus sufferer? Xanax, if you have an rx plan and don't mind a habit forming drug. Or white noise, or masking. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Xanax, if you have an rx plan and don't mind a habit forming drug. > Or white noise, or masking. I don't have an rx plan, but alprazolam is inexpensive at Costco. My internist prescribes it for me. He is not a "tinnitus specialist," but he knows that alprazolam helps my tinnitus. Environmental masking, as Jim mentioned, also helps. Glynne Glynne Gilmore <glynnegilmore@netscape.net> wrote in part: >I've been toying with the idea of taking ginko, but I would not like to >take it in large doses. Ginkgo seems cost effective, though, IF it >worked. What kinds of better things would you suggest that would be >affordable and not time-consuming for the average tinnitus sufferer? > >Glynne I could go on for hours... :-) I don't think there's an average tinnitus sufferer. First you have to have a competent medical review, which ain't easy. You need to find and treat any treatable cause. If you've done that, and you are still hurting, as most will be, what you can do depends upon your own situation--your type of tinnitus perhaps, whether it reacts to sound by ramping up, whether you have hyperacusis as part of it, whether you have one or another type of hearing loss associated with it. Options that seem to help most people, in my opinion, include: Time (more than anything else). Masking, either full or partial, worn or just environmental. Counseling. Tinnitus retraining therapy from a competent clinician. Xanax (alprazolam) under the care of a knowledgeable physician. Hearing aids, particularly those w high freq coverage, if needed. An antidepressant, in some cases. A cochlear implant when severe hearing loss is present. In the maybe or too-new-to-say categories, I might include Tegretol and Klonopin, and Neuromonics' ADP protocol and similar approaches that are starting to appear. I'm sure I've left out a few things... SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >I'm sure I've left out a few things... You forgot EERIE WAX!!! Susan <not yet a deale.. er, distributor> > Glynne Gilmore <glynnegilmore@netscape.net> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > I'm sure I've left out a few things... Well, you answered my question. Thanks. Glynne From: sufein@aol.comnospam (Susan ) Newsgroups: alt.support.tinnitus x-no-archive: yes >>I'm sure I've left out a few things... >You forgot EERIE WAX!!! >Susan <not yet a deale.. er, distributor> There has never been a study which has even suggested that EERIE WAX is anything under 100% in effectivenesds among ALL users. Not one. Bruce the benevolent founder of EERIE WAX, a tinniotus remedy Ask for EERIE WAX by name. Remember: If it doesn't say EERIE WAX on the label, then there is a chance that you're not getting ripped off. >There has never been a study which has even suggested that EERIE WAX >is anything under 100% in effectivenesds among ALL users. Not one. Well, I'm SOLD! That's truly impressive proof! Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan I tried the suppository form of EERIE WAX and for all the good it did I could have shoved it up my a.s! Dissatisfied user. "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message > I tried the suppository form of EERIE WAX and for all the good it did I > could have shoved it up my a.s! "Could have"!!! Bill, how did ya take it ;-) PaulS > "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > PaulS I put one in each ear. EERIEWAX@yahoo.com (Bruce/Seattle) wrote in part: >There has never been a study which has even suggested that EERIE WAX >is anything under 100% in effectivenesds among ALL users. Not one. I have one being submitted now to the Journal of Irreproducible Results. (Barring timely receipt of my overdue commissions, of course.) SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >CONCLUSIONS: 50 mg Ginkgo biloba >extract LI 1370 given 3 times daily for 12 weeks is no more effective than >placebo in treating tinnitus. Absolutely. That dose is much too low. Michael Seidman, M.D. The study you are referring to was a nice study out of the United Kingdom. Unfortunately, the dose that they tested was about 1/3 of the dose that has been shown to be of some benefit. I usually recommend 240 mg, two times per day; Tinnitus is a pain in the neck Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ For email: elly at eebee.cjb.net >Absolutely. That dose is much too low. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >shown to be of some benefit. I usually recommend 240 mg, two times per >day; Okay, so where's the evidence that the higher dose is more effective? Just saying it's too low isn't evidence that more would work. Susan Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.cjb.net.noway> wrote in part: >>CONCLUSIONS: 50 mg Ginkgo biloba >>extract LI 1370 given 3 times daily for 12 weeks is no more effective than [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >For email: elly at eebee.cjb.net Dr. Seidman is a paid spokesman for Arches brand of ginkgo. It's a bit like Michael J. Jordan recommending Nike running shoes! Where are the data, Elly? SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG why is everyone trying so hard to discredit ginko? dont you think for the people that are actually getting some relief from it, whether it be placebo or not , that what your doing is cruel. Like I have said before ginko is good for general health anyway...and in the doses mentioned it isnt doing anymore harm, than taking a couple of aspirin. I think it is just sour grapes from the people who dont get any releif from it, well Im sorry you dont, but dont ruin it for thos of us who do.. Give it a rest will ya, and let us enjoy the peace. Jim Chinnis wrote in message ... >Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.cjb.net.noway> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA >Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG "Jennifer Bell" <starwood@iprimus.com.au> wrote in part: >why is everyone trying so hard to discredit ginko? dont you think for the >people that are actually getting some relief from it, whether it be placebo >or not , that what your doing is cruel. Ginkgo is a scam. It has been discredited with large, well-done studies. It makes obscene amounts of money for many people in the supplements business. The data show that it does nothing for tinnitus sufferers except empty their wallets. Those who discontinue ginkgo will have the same tinnitus and larger bank accounts. I also object to your trying to restrain discussion in an internet forum. You may be in the wrong place if you want protection from ideas that challenge your or others' beliefs. If you have evidence that ginkgo is valuable, present it. Maybe more research funds should be devoted to it? SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >Ginkgo is a scam. It has been discredited with large, well-done studies. It >makes obscene amounts of money for many people in the supplements business. Whoa. That hasn't been proven, and I don't believe it. >The data show that it does nothing for tinnitus sufferers except empty their >wallets. The data show that 12 weeks of 50mg does nothing for T sufferers. >Those who discontinue ginkgo will have the same tinnitus and larger bank >accounts. Maybe yes, maybe no. >I also object to your trying to restrain discussion in an internet forum. You >may be in the wrong place if you want protection from ideas that challenge >your or others' beliefs. Yes, I agree, telling others what they can discuss, or what views are acceptable for sharing is not cool. >If you have evidence that ginkgo is valuable, present it. Maybe more research >funds should be devoted to it? Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The jury is out. You have no more authority for calling it a scam than others have for calling it an effective treatment. I think you just got too pissed off. Susan the only evidence I have is that it works for me...this is an open newsgroup..dont tell me what I can and can not say. Jim Chinnis wrote in message ... >"Jennifer Bell" <starwood@iprimus.com.au> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Jim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA >Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG >the only evidence I have is that it works for me...this is an open >newsgroup..dont tell me what I can and can not say. You did that, not anyone else. Susan >why is everyone trying so hard to discredit ginko? dont you think for the >people that are actually getting some relief from it, whether it be placebo [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >it, well Im sorry you dont, but dont ruin it for thos of us who do.. >Give it a rest will ya, and let us enjoy the peace. Uh, who, exactly is everyone? We had a discussion here, in which research findings and opinions were shared. IMO, that's a good thing. I'm delighted that you've found relief, for whatever reason, while taking GB. That doesn't mean that the use of this forum for discussion of its merits is inappropriate. Susan > why is everyone trying so hard to discredit ginko? I don't think everyone is trying to discredit ginkgo. I was interested in learning about controlled studies involving taking something to treat tinnitus. Since one study and maybe others used a low dosage of ginkgo for a short period of time, and the recommended dosage is higher for a longer period of time, I'm not sure the studies prove that gingko is ineffective. I personally don't think ginkgo would help me, but if it helps you or anyone else, I think that's great. Whatever works. Glynne Thats what I fifgure Glynne >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Glynne > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Glynne I wish it were a matter of "whatever works", Glynne. As we've seen in this newsgroup, "whatever works" ranges from eating black beans to intravenous injections of exotic herbs. Yes, some treatments enhance one's tolerance for their tinnitus but not without significant side effects and even risk of addiction. Tinnitus is so variable in perceived loudness, pitch and origin as to make it difficult or perhaps impossible for an individual to associate a change in perception with any concoction they might be taking. Likewise, habituation may evolve coincidental to some treatment, making it seem as though the treatment is working. For most, if not all, of us who have frequented this group over many years, relief came after acceptance that this is a condition unlikely to go away. That acceptance is a necessary step toward learning to live with it. Yes, it is possible to live with severe tinnitus, to such an extent that it is no longer a factor in one's life. The present ginkgo discussion is not unlike the ginkgo discussions that have taken place at least annually for as long as I've been hanging around here. By the time it ends, a few more people will have half-full bottles of the stuff gathering dust on their shelves as do I. As someone who successfully habituated tinnitus and have watched many newbies pass through this group, I feel duty bound to resist the establishment of false hopes that prolong the habituation period. We need to spend more time helping people accept their condition and move toward habituation and less time dancing around the senseless ginkgo, acupuncture, hyperbaric chamber and t-gone topics. "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message news:<tLRMc.553 snipped... We need to spend more time helping people accept their > condition and move toward habituation and less time dancing around the > senseless ginkgo, acupuncture, hyperbaric chamber and t-gone topics. Could you provide controlled studies as to: (1)only habituation helps and nothing else. (2)there is no need for medical treatment of tinnitus even for patients who are suffering from somatic discomfort together with the tinnitus sound. (3)all that 'useless' items you named above are (a)*totally* useless and (b)totally useless for *all* patients. (4)Those who claim to have benefited from some of the 'useless' items are suffering from hallucination or imaginary feelings. (5)Since the feeling in (4) is imaginary, any improvements which they themslves have felt do not count as benefits. (6)Since the feeling in (4) is imaginary, they should discontinue whatever they are trying. Upon discontinuation, any discomfort they experience therefrom is also imaginary and therefore also does not count. FP > "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message news:<tLRMc.553 > snipped... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > FP Francis, the ginkgo topic has been beaten to death. Tinnitus habituation doesn't cure tinnitus, and nothing else does either. Tinnitus habituation is an effective way of dealing with tinnitus. It is free. There are no side effects. You will never habituate your own tinnitus if you keep trying to associate what your doctor prescribes for a vascular condition with the changes in your tinnitus because tinnitus changes by itself. Give yourself a break and involve yourself with issues unrelated to your tinnitus. You will discover that the less often you think about it, the less often it will bother you. It is important, Francis, that you not give others false hope because in doing so, you only prolong their habituation. As you have learned first hand, Francis, the other treatments you promoted such as black beans, intravenous injections, the kidney thing and hyperbaric treatments didn't cure your tinnitus. Your cure du jour is ginkgo, and that isn't going to work either. Should we now dive into acupuncture and T-Gone or would you rather simply get on with habituating your tinnitus? > > "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message news:<tLRMc.553 > > snipped... [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > work either. Should we now dive into acupuncture and T-Gone or would you > rather simply get on with habituating your tinnitus? I don't think you have been listening what I have been saying all along. I am all for habituation but in order to do that one has to take care of one's somatic discomfort, _if any_, first. That is to say, if a tinnitus patient does not have somatic discomfort but only tinnitus sound, then by all means habituate and see the extent of the treatment. But if a person is suffering from somatic discomfort, he should get himself treated _medically_ in the first place. You seem to want to provide a generalized answer to all the t suffers while in reality such a recipee does not exist. And you seem to have known more about my conditions than my doctor who prescribed me treatments as he sees fit. Stop getting onto your high horse and start coming down. Each case is diferent! FP =========================================== > > > "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message news:<tLRMc.553 > > > snipped... [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > FP > =========================================== Here is the definition of "somatic": Adjective 1. Affecting or characteristic of the body as opposed to the mind or spirit; "bodily needs"; "a corporal defect"; "corporeal suffering"; "a somatic symptom or somatic illness". As you can see, "somatic discomfort" would include any bodily discomfort. Right now I am treating an infection. The pain from that infection has nothing whatever to do my tinnitus or the habituation thereof. They are separate and distinct issues. > > "Smarty pants" <bushlies@whitehouse.now> wrote in message > news:<j60Nc.601$jz4.22480@news7.onvoy.net>... [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > As you can see, "somatic discomfort" would include any bodily discomfort. I am suffering from hydrop, which is associated to loudness. FP ================================= > Right now I am treating an infection. The pain from that infection has > nothing whatever to do my tinnitus or the habituation thereof. They are > separate and distinct issues. >A difference is that controlled studies have shown that glucosamine and >chondroitin reduce pain of osteoarthritis. The same kind of studies found that >ginkgo doesn;t help tinnitus. I thought you did not approve of controlled studies. Only double blinded ones. Tinnitus is a pain in the neck Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ For email: elly at eebee.cjb.net Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.cjb.net.noway> wrote in part: >I thought you did not approve of controlled studies. Only double >blinded ones. Huh? The question to be examined determines the type of study to be done. Drugs/herbs/supplements, etc. that do not provoke identifiable signs or symptoms can be easily tested in a double blinded study, and certainly should be. Some can't be, because they give themselves away. Xanax is an example--subjects given Xanax know they didn't get a sugar pill. There are ways around this problem to some degree with different types of study designs. Many procedures can also be studied with controlled blinded designs, but seldom completely double-blinded. And many physiology, biology, etc. type studies aren't blinded, can't be, and have no need to be. SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > who anyone first timers going to try Ginko, I will tell you what my > nayuropath told me..it takes 6 weeks to have its full effect so dont just > take it 2 times and say it didnt work, stick it out a bit, as long as your > feeling ok with it, The gingko pills my doctor prescribed for me were bought from a boutique shop in England. They worked almost immediately. After running out of the 7 tablets he sold me, I went out to buy the ones made by 21st Century from Arizona. But I found the later to be less effective and take almost a week and half before I began to experience the impact. The mosquitoes attacks became less frequent with the American ones. Then i went back to the doctor again and asked him to sell me the ones made in England. He did that finally but at twice the price with which I could buy the American ones. Frankly, the British ones are better. In case you are interested, the website is www.gandgvitamins.com. This shop is supposed to be 'organic'. My doc is adament about using dried gingko leaf as opposed to extract. He simply does not like the chemicals put into the process of extraction. FP =========================================== > >x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > > >Glynne >sorry just me again..what is Xanax? sound like an antidepressant. Xanax is in the family of benzodiazapenes that are commonly used for anxiety and/or pain. Valium and Xanax also work on the nervous system and help with balance problems and tinnitus. Susan > entconsult@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > There's not much data from controlled studies. And what there is seems to > support little if any effect, even in cases of hydrops. I have been on betahistine for the past 5 months and I could tell something about how it works. (1)It makes people asleep. (2)It does releases head pressure caused by what supposingly is the hydrop thing. As a result, the t sound becomes softened a bit. (3)Napping under the influence of betahistine is less punishing than doing it without betahistine. I went to HongKong today and visited 3 large pharmacist shops. I asked each one what most people in this area use for tinnitus. Bymeniere, they all replied, which is the brand name for betahistine. Hong Kong is an international city of about 7 million people. I would imagine that the market demand for this product can tell you something or could be at least be entered into the equation of a controlled study about this product. FP ===================================== > >Evaluating anything for T is very very tough. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > (Xanax may be the only exception so far, and there the study showing a pretty > big effect wasn't blinded.) >>By the way, there is no shortage of studies ...and extensive studies >>>that one could find in the search engine of Yahoo. Some speak in favor [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Murray Grossan, M.D. >http://www.ent-consult.com Thank you Murray. So much for studies. Tinnitus is a pain in the neck Elly's Tinnitus Resources http://eebee.net/ For email: elly at eebee.cjb.net Elly Byrne <elly@eebee.cjb.net.noway> wrote in part: >>>By the way, there is no shortage of studies ...and extensive studies >>>>that one could find in the search engine of Yahoo. Some speak in favor [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Thank you Murray. So much for studies. Yep. Worthless. What we need are more testimonials. :-/ SignatureJim Chinnis / Warrenton, Virginia, USA Want to discuss Meniere's? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenieresDG > >By the way, there is no shortage of studies ...and extensive studies > >>that one could find in the search engine of Yahoo. Some speak in favor > >>of while others against gingko. > > You know they have been studying SERC - betahistine for Tinnitus for decades > and they still haven't a clue whether it works or not. I have been using betahistine for the past 5 months. It has not cured my tinnitus but makes my head less uncomfortable when i experience something like what you describe to be the 'hydrop' pressure. FP ====================== > Evaluating anything for T is very very tough. > > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com > <snip> > > By the way, there is no shortage of studies ...and extensive studies [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Tell us, Francis, how many of these are controlled, double-blind studies > involving large numbers of tinnitus sufferers? I am not into the business of doing surveys. Gingko was discovered by the Chinese through EXPERIENCE that it helps blood circulation in the head. Thus if bloood circulation were the cause of your tinnitus, then using gingko would be of a logical help. Now, can you show me studies that proved gingko does NOT help blood circulation in the head? FP ========= After all, such studies > would be the only ones to yield meaningful results. What were the results? > From what I find, there was only one such study and the results demonstrate > ginkgo to be neither more nor less effective than placebo. Can you point us > to another such study that proved it's effectiveness? If not, there is no > scientific basis for treating tinnitus with ginkgo. <snip> > I am not into the business of doing surveys. Gingko was discovered by > the Chinese through EXPERIENCE that it helps blood circulation in the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > FP <snip> You show me yours, I'll show you mine. > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > <snip> > You show me yours, I'll show you mine. I think Francis is trying to say since Gingko helps blood circulation in the head and Gingko has not show to lessen tinnitus in controlled studies, that the blood circulation to the head theory of tinnitus is unproven. A valuable contribution to our debate. Thank you, Francis. scp
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