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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2008

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I think I'm getting arthritis

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Steven L. - 20 Mar 2008 03:13 GMT
From my symptoms, I actually think I'm getting arthritis too now.  Just
great.

I'll need to see a doctor for it if it continues to get worse.

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Steven L.
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neil0502@yahoo.com - 20 Mar 2008 14:18 GMT
>  From my symptoms, I actually think I'm getting arthritis too now.  Just
> great.
>
> I'll need to see a doctor for it if it continues to get worse.

That sucks.

I've heard that Hyaluronic Acid is far more effective than glucosamine/
chondroitin.

I've taken it for a few years ... more preventively than anything
else, and because all these supplements help to stave off that dreaded
build-up of extra cash ;-)

I've often mused that -- were I an automobile -- I'd have been
recalled several times by now.

I hope it's just a temporary thing, and that you're mobile, supple,
and pain free right quick!
Susan - 20 Mar 2008 15:54 GMT
>  From my symptoms, I actually think I'm getting arthritis too now.  Just
> great.
>
> I'll need to see a doctor for it if it continues to get worse.

Are you still using any kind of steroid spray/inhaler?

When I'm adrenally suppressed, either by drugs or my tumor, I get
painful, swollen joints, most notably in my fingers.

In the past, decades ago, I've been completely crippled by aggressive
arthritis and spent years on heavy meds for it, but it went completely
away until my recent HPA axis problems.  Still, not bad enough to
require treatment.

Trust me, if there's anything you can do to stop it, find the cause and
arrest it, you want to.  It's like trying to swim through cement all day
when it's advanced.

Sorry you have to worry about this, but see if tapering slowly off of
any steroid, no matter how minor you think it is, helps in time as your
adrenals wake up.

Susan
Steven L. - 20 Mar 2008 18:48 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> arrest it, you want to.  It's like trying to swim through cement all day
> when it's advanced.

No oral or inhaled steroids.

The only thing I use is topical triamcinolone cream on my body for eczema.

I'm just having increasing pain in my knees walking up or down stairs,
or standing up after squatting to take laundry out of the dryer, that
sort of thing.  Can't remember any sort of trauma that would have caused
it.  That's why I think it could be the onset of arthritis.

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Steven L.
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Susan - 20 Mar 2008 20:24 GMT
> No oral or inhaled steroids.
>
> The only thing I use is topical triamcinolone cream on my body for eczema.

That's what gave me my first signs of adrenal suppression many years
ago.  Same thing. I recall reading some studies a few years ago of
early, low dose scalp solutions with it, and within 2 weeks of daily
use, 50% of users showed HPA suppression, while it took longer for the
rest to catch up.  :-/

> I'm just having increasing pain in my knees walking up or down stairs,
> or standing up after squatting to take laundry out of the dryer, that
> sort of thing.  Can't remember any sort of trauma that would have caused
> it.  That's why I think it could be the onset of arthritis.

I hope it improves.

Susan
Shirley ann - 25 Mar 2008 13:31 GMT
My Husband takes 2 Aleve in the morning for his osteoarthritis.
If he does not take it his hands hurt so bad that he can hardly use them
to pickup anything.

His hands were so painful a few years ago that the hand specialist gave
him cortizone shots in them.

His MD does will not give him a prescription for any arthritis Meds..

shirleyann
Kofi - 21 Mar 2008 02:16 GMT
>  From my symptoms, I actually think I'm getting arthritis too now.  Just
> great.
>
> I'll need to see a doctor for it if it continues to get worse.

You might have celiac disease.  Celiacs can experience sinusitis and
produce anti-transglutaminase antibodies when exposed to wheat in
addition to anti-gliadin/gluten antibodies.  Since transglutaminase is
also used as an antimicrobial agent in products like corn flower,
celiacs have to be particularly cautious about diet.  Unfortunately
while the body does not have native gliadin proteins, transglutaminase
is present in the joints, so the autoimmunity can spread out from the
gut.  As celiacs continue to get exposed to allergens, they continue to
destroy their own joints.  If you have joint pain with your sinusitis, I
think you should assume you're autoimmune until you can prove otherwise.
Susan - 21 Mar 2008 18:07 GMT
> You might have celiac disease.  Celiacs can experience sinusitis and
> produce anti-transglutaminase antibodies when exposed to wheat in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> destroy their own joints.  If you have joint pain with your sinusitis, I
> think you should assume you're autoimmune until you can prove otherwise.

Joint pain can be so many other things, reactive to infection, for example.

Autoimmunity is of endocrine origin, it's regulated by HPA axis hormones.

Susan
judy.n - 23 Mar 2008 02:10 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Susan
Since we're on the topic: for years I would get some knee pain when I
had an infection. Then, this summer I had a headache/fever and 6 weeks
of subsequent joint pain. I order ticked serology, which literally
ticked off my PCP, so I switched to her partner who is double boarded
in infectious diseases. The tick serology was negative, and she
hypothesized it could have been West Nile Virus, but didn't check
serology.
 Then, I had a couple of less intense recurrences, following what
appear to be viral illnesses. The last episode left me with lots of
joint inflammation in the hands.
 I called my PCP, and her office made an appointment, and I asked
about labs prior to the visit--but her health assistant called back
and reported the PCP said "no labs first", so I called my buddy the
rheumatologist and ordered the labs he suggested. I saw the PCP who
thanked me for the labs (to the point I'm sure she never told me not
to order them), which didn't suggest an etiology, and she still thinks
it's a post viral thing, but reminds her of Lyme as well, and asked me
to see the rheumatologist--I already had an appointment to see him
after the phone call, and was just seeing the PCP to be polite. (Also
to get her take on the West NIle thing.)
 My office staff gave me hell for not calling someone on the "no
labs" issue, but what's the point?
 It's always something....
Judy
Susan - 23 Mar 2008 02:43 GMT
> Since we're on the topic: for years I would get some knee pain when I
> had an infection. Then, this summer I had a headache/fever and 6 weeks
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>   It's always something....
> Judy

Judy, do all the serology you can get, but if nothing shows up, take 400
mg per day of doxy for 4-6 weeks and see if it helps.  Covers borrelia,
ehrlichiae...

I don't see why you have to see a specialist for straightforward
testing, but you should make sure you also get tested for HGE, HME,
bartonella, babesiosis, and recognize that for all of us, and for you
with your immunity impaired, the tests are not anything close to
reliable for a rule out.

Mine began decades ago with pain in my right knee and hip, then severe
inflammation of my feet and ankles.

Susan
judy.n - 23 Mar 2008 14:08 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Susan
My PCP agreed that with my IgG subtype deficiency, the negative
serology wasn't reliable. I was just going to check in with the
rheumatologist, who is a friend, to get an opinion, and for future
flares.
My older daughter has celiac and IgA deficiency, and she's at very
high risk for rheumatoid arthritis. She was really achey from old
horseback riding injuries, to the point she couldn't play tennis, but
she feels a lot better since she went gluten free.
 An unofficial test for rheumatoid is the MCP joint squeeze, and a
week ago, those joints were sore. So, that's what made me call the
rheumatologist.
 What are the acronyms HGE, HME?
Judy
Susan - 23 Mar 2008 16:14 GMT
> My PCP agreed that with my IgG subtype deficiency, the negative
> serology wasn't reliable. I was just going to check in with the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> week ago, those joints were sore. So, that's what made me call the
> rheumatologist.

I could've been diagnosed with RA based upon that screen, any time I'm a
quart low on cortisol.  :-)

Judy, even in folks with normal immune function, a million things
prevent serological evidence of borrelia and other TBDs, from their
ability to evade immune detection, modulate immunity to having taken
NSAIDS or other meds prior to testing.  Plus, the tests don't look for
many of the genetic strains.

>   What are the acronyms HGE, HME?

granulytic and monocytic ehrlichiosos.  Docs who know how to test for
TBDs test for those, Lyme, bartonella henselae, babesiosis because
reaction to any can prove tick exposure, but none of these are
clinically reliable.

Since all sorts of arthritis, even rheumatoid, are known to respond to
Minocycline, I think an empirical trial, once testing is exhausted (and
you might try serum, urine and saliva cortisol tests, too) could be very
good medicine for what ails you.

Another thing; higher insulin levels promote inflammation; low carbing
sometimes rids folks of a lot of inflammation.  Two things, in
particular, I hear over and over again, an end to IBS and to asthma and
the need for inhalers.

Susan
Kofi - 24 Mar 2008 10:33 GMT
> > You might have celiac disease.  Celiacs can experience sinusitis and
> > produce anti-transglutaminase antibodies when exposed to wheat in
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Autoimmunity is of endocrine origin, it's regulated by HPA axis hormones.

Most cases of autoimmunity appear to get started in the gut in some
fashion.  Infections can generate antibodies against a common molecular
target also found in the body (e.g., Tourette's, SARS) but if parasites
are there helping keep regulatory T-cells (Tregs) and immunoglobulins
properly balanced, this cross-reaction is much less likely.  The gut is
where the body expects Tregs to get activated.

there is an inverse relationship between parasitic infection (especially
worms/helminths) and allergy; as parasitic infections dropped on the
Pacific island of Mauke, allergies increased proportionately; one theory
is that when freed of parasitic targets, the immune system has time on
its hands and turns on innocuous allergens; the body¹s Y-shaped IgG
antibodies usually target bacteria and viruses by latching directly on
to target proteins and recruiting immune cells; parasites activate a
different mechanism - Y-shaped IgE antibodies - which attach their tails
to the surface of mast cells; mast cells are found wherever the body
comes into contact with the outside world and thus multicellular
parasites - mucous membranes of the eyes, nose, and throat, and in the
lining of the lungs and gut; once the initial IgE response is complete,
each mast cell has 100,000 to 500,000 Y-shaped antibodies protruding
from its surface with outstretched arms; usually within two weeks of
worm infestation, the immune system is primed and each mast cell
contains a thousand or more large, globular granules; a worm protein
sticks to the arms of two adjacent IgE antibodies and sets off a
reaction causing the mast cell to burst and spew its granules (mast cell
degranulation) of histamines and other inflammatory chemicals that
infiltrate local tissues; this causes itching; blood vessels dilate and
leak; tissues swell and mucus production increases; this response may
prevent worms from infiltrating further through the skin; other cells
are attracted to dump toxins on the parasites; intestinal worms, on the
other hand, come in through the mouth and attack the GI tract; in this
case, an inflamed gut producing fluid and mucus causes in diarrheamaybe
to flush out worms before they can attach; some worms can also spend
part of their life cycle in the human lung (like schistosomiasis); this
may trigger coughing and sneezing; this responses are all more acute to
newcomers in the tropics when first exposed to parasites; some worms do
get through though mostly the system works to protect people; in the
absence of helminths, IgE antibodies can zero in on airborne allergens
(causing asthma or hayfever) or ingested foods instead; worm infested
rats have weak allergy responsesl their IgE antibodies are tied up
fighting worms; however, in rural New Guinea, worm infestation doesn¹t
lessen the asthma rate; there¹s an IgG antibody that competes with IgE;
this G antibody (IgG4) grabs the worm protein before it bumps into the E
antibody attached to a mast cell and this prevents the mast cell
degranulation; IgG4 (1-2%) is the rarest of the IgG¹s; IgG1 targets
viruses and bacteria and is the most common; in people with parasites;
IgG4 jumpts to 18%
<http://www.discover.com/issues/sep-93/features/ofparasitesandpo264/>

the hygiene hypothesis was advanced in 1989 by David Strachan of the
London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine; the immune system
expects a dirty environment and when it isn¹t living in on it becomes
hyperactive; Gabonese children with worm infestations have fewer
allergies (and more IL-10, which blocks inflammatory signals among
immune cells); children treated for worms became much more sensitive to
dust mites; Alan Brown of Britain's University of Nottingham has treated
his hayfever with intestinal hookworms; they cause anemia and require
overeating; Joel Weinstock (once at the University of Iowa, now Tufts)
used pig whipworms (Trichuris suis; TSO from Ovamed) to treat ulcerative
colitis <http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/695>

twenty-four patients with multiple sclerosis were followed for
four-and-a-half years; half had signs of parasitic infections -
pinworms, tapeworms, whipworms and nematodes; those infected had three
relapses compared to 56 in the uninfected group and fewer MRI lesion
changes; the infected had higher levels of Tregs than the non-infected
and reported substantially less disability; helminth-infected Vietnamese
children also have much fewer allergies; bacterial and viral infections
trigger Th1 cells; Th2 cells mediate allergies; Tregs control both Th1
and Th2 responses; in the infected group, myelin basic protein-specific
responses in peripheral blood had a significant increase in IL-10 and
TGF-beta and a drop in IL-12 and interferon-gamma-secreting cells;
myelin basic protein-specific T cells cloned from infected subjects
lacked IL-2 and IL-4 production, but had high IL-10 and/or TGF-beta
secretion, showing a cytokine profile similar to the T-cell subsets Tr1
and Th3; cloning frequency of CD4+CD25+ FoxP3+ Tregs was substantially
increased in infected patients; Smad7 messenger RNA was not detected in
T cells from infected MS patients secreting TGF-beta; increased
production of IL-10 and TGF-beta, together with induction of CD25+CD4+
FoxP3+ T cells, suggests Tregs induced by parasite infection alter the
course of MS <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6268585.stm>,
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10964.html>, [PMID 17230481]
truehawk - 24 Mar 2008 23:47 GMT
> > > You might have celiac disease.  Celiacs can experience sinusitis and
> > > produce anti-transglutaminase antibodies when exposed to wheat in
[quoted text clipped - 96 lines]
> course of MS <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6268585.stm>,
> <http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10964.html>, [PMID 17230481]

Definitional doubletalk due to confusion of cause,coincidence and
effect.

At one time they did not have any means of detecting that the cells
that the immune system is attacking had bacterial DNA injected into
them.
Piliated bacteria such as some strains of e-coli will poke plasmids
into just about any other cell they meet.
Randy little buggers, and by no means are they the only ones.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070830150118.htm

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