Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2008
My Recent Efforts, and a few questions
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dygerati@gmail.com - 06 Mar 2008 05:33 GMT I've suffered sinus symptoms for round about 2 years. Attempted treatments include a few runs on antibiotics (augmentin, cipro, levaquin), allergy related treaments (allegra, prednisone, flonase), and more recently a few home remedies, complements of this forum. A more detailed account can be found in the following thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.sinusitis/browse_thread/thread/eb5d70 0ecf4fc9f6/87cefad07f51a6fb#
None of these treatments so much as touched this chronic condition. For lack of any local professional to help me I've recently been getting more aggressive with my own efforts. I bought the Grossen Irrigator, and have been using it twice a day with J&J baby shampoo for about a week.
Queue question number 1: When I irrigate, very little comes out. The last few days it's been clear water in, clear water/mucus out. Then, later, I proceed to hack up yellow/clear discharge all the live long day - is this normal? From reading the accounts of others on this forum it seems that their irrigation session are far more productive.
Also courtesy of this forum, I came across the unshelled pecan method... I ordered some online (as I wasn't able to find any locally) and just received them today. I cracked a few open, retrieved this membrane (I think), and sucked on a couple for a while. (the membrane is the bark-like thing in the center right?)
Once again, nothing. It seemed by the descriptions that the effect would likely be fairly immediate/dramatic.
So, to sum up, despite my feeling like unadulterated crap and the yellow discharge everything seems to point to my sinuses being fine (including CT scans). I mentioned before that I haven't been able to find a knowledgeable physician locally to help me, so I'm appealing for advice. Your everyone's experience what would be a next step?
I want to thank everyone for their efforts on this forum...they've proven therapeutic just to know that I'm not the only one..
truehawk - 06 Mar 2008 06:22 GMT On Mar 6, 12:33 am, dyger...@gmail.com wrote:
> I've suffered sinus symptoms for round about 2 years. Attempted > treatments include a few runs on antibiotics (augmentin, cipro, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > I want to thank everyone for their efforts on this forum...they've > proven therapeutic just to know that I'm not the only one.. I believe you and you just have to keep trying. The film can hold together when it is 2% protein and 98% water, but when it is in your nose it is about 8% protein and 92% water. This means that it takes a while to soak it off layer by layer. The worst thing that can happen is that you don't have an drainage coming out of your nose, it all just stays up stuck up there. The fact that you have yellow drainage means that some part of your bodies defenses or something that you are using is working. And no the results of irrigation with antibotics or antifungals, or tannin wash is not prompt either. It takes an hour or two for anything to decide to come down, and it takes WEEKS and WEEKS for the things to really get better. It is like removing a zillion coats of paint from a peice of furniture. I now have no fever and my sense of smell back after beating it to insignificance before and then ignoreing that it was coming back, so I have been fighting it again this time since, lets see, about January 15 or so, and I only began to be able to sleep without choaking awake after a month of treatment with pecan tannin, sporanox, mupricin, clindiamycian, bactrium, pepto bismol and prilosec. If that seems puzzleing, my insurance company will not fill my prescription from my ENT for the number of pills prescribed/time period, or they come up with another pre-authorization requirement to stall, so I get a week of one med and then after a little bit another week, etc. But all put together, over time and with the pecan tannin consistantly, it is now almost gone. I just have to remember to treat it like brushing my teeth and hopefully it will stay gone. If the pecan did not work after trying it consistantly for a few days, then the next most gentle thing is to try swabbing your nose out with hair conditioner (yes hair conditioner) with some splenda in it. Read the label find one that is composed of complex alcohols and canada balsam and EDTA. I posted the artical here about the results of a farnesol/xyolitol containing cream against staph a. Canada balsam contains farnesol.
Chronic sinusitis is a cumulative disease. The biofilm is a community and yours is certainly different from mine, which does respond to pecan dust like an elephant trying to climb a ladder to get away from a mouse but There are a number of different micorbiota that could be in your nose all together at the same time and they all have different vulnerabilities. It is like a basketball team with a deep bench.
Fungi (take prilosec, and sporanox if you can get it), actinomycetes (sulfa drugs), e-coli (macrolides) They also are somewhat inconvienced by the bismoth in pepto bismol. Tannin and canada balsam, and EDTA are biofilm breakers, so they are non-specific.
Michael - 06 Mar 2008 07:39 GMT > On Mar 6, 12:33 am, dyger...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > Tannin and canada balsam, and EDTA are biofilm breakers, so they are > non-specific. Queue question number 1: When I irrigate, very little comes out.
That certainly was my experience with just saline; when I first started to use tea tannins I cleared out surprising quantities and would feel the gunk shifting all day. Now after a month / six weeks I get some crap out in the morning (I first wash with saline just to hydrate) then drink coffee and the heat starts it moving, then with tea which gets crud out -- but it will carry on breaking up till the next wash. For example I washed last three hours ago but a few chunks just broke loose and i can feel them pushing out through the sinus openings.
To answer your past post about prednisone.
I found even a 'low' dose (10 mg.) to be completely destructive of any mental focus or concentration whatsoever and left me yet more numbed out than the bacterial 'brain fog' -- aimless, timeless, completely apathetic and having to force myself to do anything at all even shaving. (And to make it worse you don't care this is happening) I did find that sublingual B12 helped a little with energy and some concentration, but it did not really bring back focus. If I stayed off for three days the focus was better. I did find that alternate day dosing was not as destructive to mental functioning
Michael
dygerati@gmail.com - 08 Mar 2008 04:52 GMT > > Fungi (take prilosec, and sporanox if you can get it), actinomycetes > > (sulfa drugs), e-coli (macrolides) > > They also are somewhat inconvienced by the bismoth in pepto bismol. > > Tannin and canada balsam, and EDTA are biofilm breakers, so they are > > non-specific. Thanks for the thorough reply! This was the third day I attempted the pecan treatment with no real reaction. No pain or sensation of ...well, anything. I dug out three of the bark-like membranes and held them in my mouth for over an hour to be sure. I even chewed a bit (bleh). I'm wondering if the existence of biofilm is even a serious problem for me. Since it didn't respond to the pecans, or the tea rinse (that I only tried once this far I must admit) I'm forced to consider that I simply haven't been treated for the particular bacteria/fungi that have been attacking me.
I'll also try the conditioner suggestion, as it doesn't sound any weirder than what I've been doing thus far :0].
> That certainly was my experience with just saline; when I first > started to use tea tannins I cleared out surprising quantities and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > chunks just broke loose and i can feel them pushing out through the > sinus openings. The one time I tried the tea rinse the results were inconclusive. Since the pecans seem to be ineffective, and they're actually supposed to be a better source of tannins, it might not be the right approach for me...
> To answer your past post about prednisone. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Michael Thanks Michael, I was only on the prednisone for a couple weeks but it definitely didn't improve matters - in fact I remember thinking at the time that it had made things worse. Would the B12 only be effective due to the prednisone, or does it treat the brain fog in general? This has been my least favorite part of this crappy condition...
I've been looking into fungal rhinosinusitis, being as I haven't had any actual anti-fungal medications yet. I came across a type known as Mycetoma Fungal Sinusitis which presents itself with a fungal ball, most commonly in the Maxillary sinus. The reason this caught my attention is that one of the only things that comes up on my many CT scans has been what was described as a small cyst in the maxillary sinus. You can actually see it here:
http://www.cascadefire.com/dygerati/pages/CT0017.htm
Does anyone know if this would still cause yellow discharge even though it's not a bacterial infection? Then again, even if this was the initial condition I suppose a good dose of bacteria would have joined in by now anyways.
You'll have to excuse me if I've made it abundantly clear that this isn't my field of study :-]
Thanks people!
truehawk - 08 Mar 2008 23:02 GMT On Mar 7, 11:52 pm, dyger...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Fungi (take prilosec, and sporanox if you can get it), actinomycetes > > > (sulfa drugs), e-coli (macrolides) [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Thanks people! I am afraid is not the preferred field of study of most of us.
Since I realized that I could no longer crawl into the arms of medicine and depend on them to make me better, I have had to loo into it myself or smother. It is a lonely feeling to come back from an ENT visit, have a fever, be unable to swallow because of the vapor lock, have an aching neck and know that if I went to the emergency room that they would not be able to help me because they would not have a clue. I wound up using an azole fungicide made for roses on a swab made from cotten on a loop made from 18" piece of florist wire. What fell out 8 hours later was rubbery, olive green and 1.75 X .5 X .200 inches. When I found fungus in my sinuses, among other things the answer from doctors has been "it is not there", "it is just passing through", "it is a colonizer", "to it is an opportunistic infection." To which I replied "of course it is a colonizer, but I NEED that space to breath through, thank you very much!" Anyway, from my work I find that most of the fungus that I can culture form the goo in my sinuses like 70F more than 80 and do not flourish at temperatures above 85 F, only a couple hold on at 90 and nothing grows at 95 F. If you are not dead, then you have a pretty good immune system which is keeping this stuff from invading. Acutally i don't think that fungi can get a foothold by itself. I believe that if you don't have a normal immune system you are toast and if you do have a normal immune system the usual way the fungi can get a foothold latching onto an attachment provided by e-coli. However the dental collages have found a few cultivators of fungus that are capable of taking the heat and attaching by themselves.
Try chewing 2 prilosec along with a teaspoon of orange juice and a couple of packets of splenda. Don't swallow, the proton pumps that you want to effect are those of the fungus in your sinuses, not the ones in your stomach. Lie down on your bad side with this mixture in your mouth for an hour to give it time to diffuse up into your sinuses. Prilosec the is omeprazole, and is antifungal in acid conditions. It is also the most popular and profitable drug on the planet, and is used in combination with clyndiamycian to kill h. pylori and other bad a.s bugs. Since fungi have cellulose in their cell walls nother thing that you can try is a preparation with cellulosese in it, a enzyme that will selectively attack fungus. You can find them at health food stores under some name starting with candi....... They are pretty expensive, like a dollar a pill. But the prilosec is 2 and sporanox is 9. Once you begin to get stuff to detach you can get Amphcterian (sp?) B. washes from some of the ENTs. I have also been wondering if metronazole and hair conditioner washes would work. The metro works on just about everything but is not absorbed by the blood, and it can kill all the bacteria in you intestines if you swallow it, but i think useing it as a wash, followed in an hour with a swig of keifer and a cup of yogurt might help reset the sinuses to a more healthy balance.
The yellow stuff coming our of your nose is probably 90% staph. But if you are not getting a distinct feeling of pulling from holding the tea or splenda and hair conditioner in your mouth, then I think it is probably further up toward the top of your head and not continuous to down around the adenoids.
Also take some advil if you are not aspirin intolerant. All of this stuff produces inflammatory ketones to irritate your sinuses, and detaching them is going to leave raw spots. If you take the advil first you will avoid most of the headache when they detach, (otherwise the toxins will make you feel even more like crap) and the advil makes it more difficult for the bugs to use the plasma to make fibers to re- attach.
dygerati@gmail.com - 11 Mar 2008 20:40 GMT Can't for the life of me find a conditioner that has "canada balsam" in the list of ingredients. Anyone a brand/name that I can go off of?
Becca - 13 Mar 2008 01:45 GMT > Can't for the life of me find a conditioner that has "canada balsam" > in the list of ingredients. Anyone a brand/name that I can go off of? There is a conditioner that contains balsam canada called Flex Triple Action Extra Body Conditioner, Balsam & Protein. It may or may not be appropriate for your intended purpose.
Becca
Murray Grossan - 06 Mar 2008 07:17 GMT On 3/5/08 9:33 PM, in article ef897b44-cd89-4e80-bc76-8991e4d4f6e5@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com,
> Queue question number 1: When I irrigate, very little comes out. The > last few days it's been clear water in, clear water/mucus out. Then, > later, I proceed to hack up yellow/clear discharge all the live long > day - is this normal? From reading the accounts of others on this > forum it seems that their irrigation session are far more productive. This probably is the cilia moving and getting gout the bacteria. Be sure to aid the cilia speed with hot tea/lemon and avoid ice drinks.
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