Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2008
Irrigation and Baby shampoo
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Johnny1000@webtv.net - 14 Feb 2008 05:41 GMT Did I read correctly... Do some add baby shampoo to the saline irrigation fluid? ...And if so, does it help? ...(And do you risk getting diarrhea if goes down your throat?) ...Jon
Sergei91 - 14 Feb 2008 20:07 GMT On Feb 13, 9:41 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
> Did I read correctly... Do some add baby shampoo to the saline > irrigation fluid? ...And if so, does it help? ...(And do you risk > getting diarrhea if goes down your throat?) ...Jon Yes, about 1 teaspoon to 500cc of water. Does it help, I have been doing it for about 2 months and can't say I see a huge difference, however I am doing other therapies that may or may not be skewing the results, so for me I'm going to continue doing it. As for the diarrhea, I did notice a slight "problem" in that area when I swallow too much. Sergei91
neil0502@yahoo.com - 14 Feb 2008 22:04 GMT > On Feb 13, 9:41 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > too much. > Sergei91 I'm trying SO hard not to ask you if it leaves your nose hairs soft and manageable.
Honest, I am.
Sergei91 - 14 Feb 2008 22:16 GMT On Feb 14, 2:04 pm, neil0...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Feb 13, 9:41 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Honest, I am. Yes, and fuller too! Honestly the question I get asked is can I blow bubbles out of my nose to impress my daughter and her friends and the answer is no :) Sergei91
Fred - 21 Feb 2008 05:21 GMT > On Feb 14, 2:04 pm, neil0...@yahoo.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Not so funny! When I get a lot of mucus buildup, I sometimes will blow a bubble with one nostril.
Susan - 14 Feb 2008 22:38 GMT > I'm trying SO hard not to ask you if it leaves your nose hairs soft > and manageable. > > Honest, I am. LOL!!
Very cute!
Susan
Murray Grossan - 15 Feb 2008 04:53 GMT On 2/14/08 2:04 PM, in article 1562f909-5fe4-43b3-8abe-dae9337c66bd@n19g2000hsd.googlegroups.com,
> Yes, about 1 teaspoon to 500cc of water. Should be to 500 cc of SALINE
Sergei91 - 15 Feb 2008 19:17 GMT > On 2/14/08 2:04 PM, in article > 1562f909-5fe4-43b3-8abe-dae9337c6...@n19g2000hsd.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Should be to 500 cc of SALINE Yes, I forgot to say saline irrigation solution, sorry about that Sergei
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 18 Feb 2008 12:28 GMT >>Yes, about 1 teaspoon to 500cc of water. >>Should be to 500 cc of SALINE > >Yes, I forgot to say saline irrigation solution, > sorry about that Sergei Well that's a different approach... I'm more concerned about the effects of swallowing the shampoo. ...There's a "get even" technique that involves dipping a coffee cup in soapy water, and allowing it to dry. ..Then when the mark drinks from it, he gets the same affect as if he had downed a good slug of castor oil. ...I don't know... If it comes to a choice of having ongoing diarrhea or sinusitis...I think I might choose the latter... I would be interested to hear if any one else has tried this regimen for treatment. ...JOn
Murray Grossan - 19 Feb 2008 06:36 GMT On 2/18/08 4:28 AM, in article 6112-47B979E3-851@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net, "Johnny1000@webtv.net"
>>> Yes, about 1 teaspoon to 500cc of water. >>> Should be to 500 cc of SALINE [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > choose the latter... I would be interested to hear if any one else has > tried this regimen for treatment. ...JOn With pulsatile irrigation there is no reason to swallow any of the solution since the head is bent forward and the stream doesn't get into the pharynx.
Michael - 19 Feb 2008 17:07 GMT > On 2/18/08 4:28 AM, in article > 6112-47B979E3-...@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net, "Johnny1...@webtv.net" [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > With pulsatile irrigation there is no reason to swallow any of the solution > since the head is bent forward and the stream doesn't get into the pharynx. .. I'm more concerned about the effects of swallowing the shampoo. ...
For what its worth I have been using the shampoo for two plus weeks now, two or three times a day. I have yet to notice any diarrhea or loose stool associated with same, except a reduction in occasional lower g.i. discomfort that I have put down to a lessening of the bacterial exotoxins which, for me, seem to disrupt the flora in the colon. [Over the years my experience has been that when the sinus run badly the colon becomes slightly inflamed producing wind and loose stool; probiotics help to reduce / eliminate this .]
Michael
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 19 Feb 2008 17:26 GMT hydromed@roadrunner.com (Murray Grossan) wrote:
>With pulsatile irrigation there is no reason to > swallow any of the solution since the head is > bent forward and the stream doesn't get into > the pharynx. This is true... However... Well we all know, an hour after we irrigate, we bend over, and out comes Niagara falls.. ....So, if it doesn't drain out, it has to drain down the back of the throat... This is the part of the irrigation fluid that would worry me -- especially if it contains a potent laxative. ...Jon
Michael - 19 Feb 2008 18:49 GMT On Feb 19, 12:26 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
> >With pulsatile irrigation there is no reason to > > swallow any of the solution since the head is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the back of the throat... This is the part of the irrigation fluid that > would worry me -- especially if it contains a potent laxative. ...Jon " ... dipping a coffee cup in soapy water, and allowing it to dry. ..Then when the mark drinks from it, he gets the same affect as if he had downed a good slug of castor oil. ..."
Soaps are water-soluble sodium or potassium salts of fatty acids, made from fats and oils, by treating them chemically with a strong alkali. http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/blsapon.htm
The surfactants in J&J baby shampoo do not include a standard 'soap' or a stearate; hence the advertising of 'no more tears,' 'as gentle to the eyes as pure water' etc. etc.
Michael
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 20 Feb 2008 04:21 GMT >The surfactants in J&J baby shampoo do not > include a standard 'soap' or a stearate; hence > the advertising of 'no more tears,' 'as gentle to > the eyes as pure water' etc. etc. So what exactly is in it that's supposed to benefit sinusitis sufferers?
..I'll give it a try...What the heck. ...I guess even if it doesn't help my sinusitis, I'll still get a sparkling clean nose in the process. ....Jon
Michael - 20 Feb 2008 06:20 GMT On Feb 19, 11:21 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
> >The surfactants in J&J baby shampoo do not > > include a standard 'soap' or a stearate; hence [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > help my sinusitis, I'll still get a sparkling clean nose in the > process. ....Jon So what exactly is in it that's supposed to benefit sinusitis sufferers?
The surfactants: some are are of a kind -- zwitterionic -- that have been shown in lab tests to be effective in disrupting films formed by bacteria from chronically infected sinuses. Methods for removing bacterial biofilms: in vitro study using clinical chronic rhinosinusitis specimens. Am J Rhinol. 2007 Sep-Oct;21(5):527-32 PMID: 17883887
Michael
Susan - 20 Feb 2008 15:37 GMT > On Feb 19, 11:21 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Michael If it's surfactants, then why not try the stuff in fruit/vegetable cleaning sprays?
Susan
Oakfed - 20 Feb 2008 17:46 GMT >If it's surfactants, then why not try the stuff in fruit/vegetable >cleaning sprays? Presumably because the baby shampoo is already known to be safe to use on mucosa, less likely to cause irritation. There could be other stuff in the cleaning products.
Susan - 20 Feb 2008 21:28 GMT >>If it's surfactants, then why not try the stuff in fruit/vegetable >>cleaning sprays? > > Presumably because the baby shampoo is already known to be safe to use > on mucosa, less likely to cause irritation. There could be other stuff > in the cleaning products. I think it's the other way around; the fruit/vegetable product is just surfactant and water.
Susan
Michael - 20 Feb 2008 22:09 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Susan "the fruit/vegetable product is just surfactant and water."
Surfactants are a class of compounds that reduce the surface tension of liquids, there are very many of them with individual properties. Unless you know the particular compound and what its effect might be on tissue and the relatively delicate mucous membranes I would be extremely reluctant to use it for lavage.
As Oakfed said, what is known about the particular baby shampoo, and ingredients, is that they have a relatively long history of generally safe use.
Michael
neil0502@yahoo.com - 20 Feb 2008 18:36 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > If it's surfactants, then why not try the stuff in fruit/vegetable > cleaning sprays? I think I already do.
My witch's brew has grapefruit seed extract and food grade hydrogen peroxide in it. Those sound rather similar to what you're talking about ... I think.
I haven't worked my way up to baby shampoo (or trail mix) just yet.
Murray Grossan - 22 Feb 2008 17:55 GMT On 2/20/08 10:36 AM, in article 03907b37-cc72-4903-8b8b-38d209e18a2f@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,
>> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > I haven't worked my way up to baby shampoo (or trail mix) just yet. It is a degree of familiarity. The eye doctors have been recommending this for cleaning the eye of crusts for years.
Michael - 25 Feb 2008 19:40 GMT > On 2/20/08 10:36 AM, in article > 03907b37-cc72-4903-8b8b-38d209e18...@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > It is a degree of familiarity. The eye doctors have been recommending this > for cleaning the eye of crusts for years. Baby shampoo nasal irrigations for the symptomatic post-functional endoscopic sinus surgery patient
Authors: Chiu, Alexander G.1; Palmer, James N.1; Woodworth, Bradford A. 1; Doghramji, Laurel1; Cohen, Michael B.1; Prince, Anthony1; Cohen, Noam A.1 Source: American Journal of Rhinology, Volume 22, Number 1, January/ February 2008 , pp. 34-37(4) Publisher: OceanSide Publications, Inc
Abstract: Background: Symptoms of postnasal drainage and thickened mucus are commonly seen in patients with chronic rhinosinusitis (CRS) recalcitrant to sinus surgery and conventional medical therapies. Chemical surfactants can act as a mucolytic by reducing water surface tension and have the potential to serve as an antimicrobial agent. Baby shampoo is an inexpensive, commercially available solution containing multiple chemical surfactants. This is an in vitro study of its antimicrobial effects on Pseudomonas biofilms with translation to a clinical study for use as an adjuvant nasal wash in patients with CRS who remain symptomatic despite adequate sinus surgery and conventional medical therapies.
Methods: In vitro testing was performed to determine the optimal concentration of baby shampoo that disrupted preformed bacterial biofilms and inhibited biofilm formation. This concentration was then used in a prospective study of symptomatic post-functional endoscopic sinus surgery (FESS) patients who irrigated twice a day for 4 weeks. Validated outcome forms and objective smell testing was performed before and after therapy.
Results: One percent baby shampoo in normal saline was the optimal concentration for inhibition of Pseudomonas biofilm formation. Baby shampoo had no effect on the eradication of preformed Pseudomonas biofilms. Eighteen patients with CRS with an average of 2.8 surgeries were studied after irrigating with 1% baby shampoo solution. Two patients discontinued use because of minor nasal and skin irritations; 46.6% of patients experienced an overall improvement in their subjective symptoms, and 60% of patients noted improvement in specific symptoms of thickened mucus and postnasal drainage.
Conclusion: Baby shampoo nasal irrigation has promise as an inexpensive, tolerable adjuvant to conventional medical therapies for symptomatic patients after FESS. Its greatest benefit may be in improving symptoms of thickened nasal discharge and postnasal drainage.
Keywords: Adjunctive therapy; biofilm; FESS; irrigation; mucoactive treatment; rhinosinusitis; shampoo; surfactant; topical
Document Type: Research article DOI: 10.2500/ajr.2008.22.3122 Affiliations: 1: From the Division of Rhinology, Department of Otorhinolaryngology-Head and Neck Surgery, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ocean/ajr/2008/00000022/00000001/art00007
judy.n - 26 Feb 2008 02:28 GMT > > On 2/20/08 10:36 AM, in article > > 03907b37-cc72-4903-8b8b-38d209e18...@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > > http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ocean/ajr/2008/00000022/0000000... Great reference:how do you achieve a 1% solution? 500 cc of saline has been used as the amount of irrigation fluid--was there a previous reference to a tsp of shampoo in this amount? Judy
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 26 Feb 2008 05:42 GMT >Great reference:how do you achieve a 1% > solution? 500 cc of saline has been used as > the amount of irrigation fluid--was there a > previous reference to a tsp of shampoo in this > amount? Jesus, if I read it right, that would be like over a hundred teaspoons per 500 cc. ...This would give a whole new meaning to the tune: "I'm forever blowing bubbles."
I tried about 3 rounds of the 1 teaspoon per 500 cc, but I ended up with a booming headache.. It just irritated the hell out of my sinuses.
Surprisingly though, I couldn't taste any soap, following the irrigation. ...As a youngster, I had my mouth washed out with soap, once, for swearing. ...Definitely cured that problem... Nothing tastes worse. ..Jon
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 26 Feb 2008 14:12 GMT >Jesus, if I read it right, that would be like over > a hundred teaspoons per 500 cc. Ooppps.. Pardon my last post.. Yesterday, I was delirious from actually seeing some dirt showing through after 4 months of snow. ...I didn't take my math far enough. ...A 1% solution would be 1 tsp. per 500cc. ...Jon
judy.n - 26 Feb 2008 16:52 GMT On Feb 26, 9:12 am, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
> Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > didn't take my math far enough. ...A 1% solution would be 1 tsp. per > 500cc. ...Jon Thanks for the math/1% solution--too bad it gave you a headache, my reading of the article is that it PREVENTS biofilms, but doesn't disrupt them once formed. Spring will come..... Judy
truehawk - 27 Feb 2008 01:08 GMT > On Feb 26, 9:12 am, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Spring will come..... > Judy I tried baby shampoo 8 years ago, and nail polish remover and turpintine, and acetone, and Adoph's meat tenderizer. Some were ineffective, and some too agressive.
Try the tannin tea, crystal lite, or red wine.
Murray Grossan - 27 Feb 2008 06:50 GMT On 2/26/08 8:52 AM, in article 0f5541b3-11ea-4c31-9ed5-5174627742e1@h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"
> my > reading of the article is that it PREVENTS biofilms, but doesn't > disrupt them once formed. The purpose of the shampoo is to make it easier to remove biofilm colonies. Used in pulsatlle irrigation it has proven to be an asset for removing biofilm colonies from the nose and sinuses.
judy.n - 27 Feb 2008 13:56 GMT > On 2/26/08 8:52 AM, in article > 0f5541b3-11ea-4c31-9ed5-517462774...@h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"
> The purpose of the shampoo is to make it easier to remove biofilm colonies. > Used in pulsatlle irrigation it has proven to be an asset for removing > biofilm colonies from the nose and sinuses. The article specifically states that baby shampoo does not eradicate biofilms once they're formed, it is helpful in preventing their formation and thinning thickened mucous: One percent baby shampoo in normal saline was the optimal concentration for inhibition of Pseudomonas biofilm formation. Baby shampoo had no effect on the eradication of preformed Pseudomonas biofilms
So per the article, you are not removing biofilm colonies, just preventing them with baby shampoo.
You were the one who directed us to the Rhinology citation.
Judy
Murray Grossan - 29 Feb 2008 03:57 GMT On 2/27/08 5:56 AM, in article 120be858-df11-4c09-81c2-354d5f89f197@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"
>> On 2/26/08 8:52 AM, in article >> 0f5541b3-11ea-4c31-9ed5-517462774...@h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "judy.n" [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Judy Judy it is used with pulsatile irrigation for removal of biofilm.
Susan - 29 Feb 2008 14:46 GMT > On 2/27/08 5:56 AM, in article > 120be858-df11-4c09-81c2-354d5f89f197@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "judy.n" [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Judy it is used with pulsatile irrigation for removal of biofilm. Murray, can you furnish any independent studies that show pulsatile irrigation removes biofilm, and does so more effectively than other methods of irrigation?
So far, we've found that none of the claims you make for PI are substantiated by any research, including the citations you've provided, when we look closely at them.
Susan
judy.n - 01 Mar 2008 12:55 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Susan Thanks for being so direct Susan: the evidence doesn't support the claims. The article is pretty clear about that: baby shampoo prevents biofilms, there's no mention of pulsatile irrigation with baby shampoo eradicating biofilms. I'd embrace it if it had evidence to support the claims. Judy
Susan - 01 Mar 2008 18:54 GMT > Thanks for being so direct Susan: the evidence doesn't support the > claims. The article is pretty clear about that: baby shampoo prevents > biofilms, there's no mention of pulsatile irrigation with baby shampoo > eradicating biofilms. I'd embrace it if it had evidence to support the > claims. I'm nothing if not direct! :-)
It's not the first time that unsupported claims have been made by Dr. Grossan, nor is it the first time he's gone silent when asked to provide citations to support his claims.
Susan
Murray Grossan - 02 Mar 2008 02:13 GMT On 3/1/08 10:54 AM, in article 62tn2nF24og6lU1@mid.individual.net, "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> eradicating biofilms. I'd embrace it if it had evidence to support the >> claims. No citations, just the experience of my 5 person ENT group.
Susan - 02 Mar 2008 03:51 GMT > No citations, just the experience of my 5 person ENT group. So, basically, zero evidence to support your claims.
Susan
scottburrus@comcast.net - 02 Mar 2008 04:22 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Susan I too appreciate the directness. I used the PI for awhile, and really liked it, but then what was once a strong flow of water became a trickle. Alas, warranty expired, and I returned to my trusty NeilMed bottle, but this time the big daddy, 16 oz. bottle. I decided to try the 1 tsp. of baby shampoo, and low and behold about a half hour later I did blow out this weird, sludge-like substance that I've never seen before (and after 6 years of irrigating and 2 surgeries I've seen it all). Could it be biofilm?
BTW - Anyone ever used J's Nose Drops?
Susan - 02 Mar 2008 04:50 GMT > I too appreciate the directness. I used the PI for awhile, and really > liked it, but then what was once a strong flow of water became a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > BTW - Anyone ever used J's Nose Drops? What are J drops?
And that's *lo* and behold, unless you're a cow. ;-)
Susan
aroberts - 02 Mar 2008 21:07 GMT > On 3/1/08 10:54 AM, in article 62tn2nF24og6lU1@mid.individual.net, "Susan" > <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> > No citations, just the experience of my 5 person ENT group. So anecdotal evidence is good enough for you? Would you treat your patients with a drug that had not been tested under controlled and peer-reviewed studies?
judy.n - 02 Mar 2008 23:07 GMT > > On 3/1/08 10:54 AM, in article 62tn2nF24og6...@mid.individual.net, "Susan" > > <neverm...@nomail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > with a drug that had not been tested under controlled and peer-reviewed > studies? Anecdotal evidence has its place, but the whole point of evidence based medicine is to try--whenever possible to examine widely and strongly held beliefs with GOOD evidence--the best being randomized controlled prospective trials (and without drug company bias would be even better.) Dr. Grossan has repeatedly made strong assertions, and even cited studies to support his claims and no study has ever verified the superiority of pulsatile irrigation. The recent Rhinology study showed that 1% baby shampoo irrigation prevented biofilms, but couldn't eradicate them. Yet, Dr. Grossan, with his "n" of a 5 person practice, believes that if delivered with pulsatile irrigation, the baby shampoo can eradicate biofilms. A study could be created to test this claim, but it hasn't been done. Numerous studies have been performed on nasal irrigations, but none have proven one method to be superior to others. So, personal experience and anecdotal evidence have their place, but you can't make a claim with certainty, without data to support it. All you can really say in that case, is that "in my experience this has been clinically useful". You can't say with any certainty that your belief is a certain and provable fact. Evidence based medicine is far from perfect; garbage in/garbage out, but it's an attempt to look at entrenched beliefs methodically so we can make informed judgements. Judy
aroberts - 03 Mar 2008 00:19 GMT On Mar 2, 4:07 pm, "aroberts" <a-rober...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Murray Grossan" <hydro...@roadrunner.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > with a drug that had not been tested under controlled and peer-reviewed > studies? Anecdotal evidence has its place, but the whole point of evidence based medicine is to try--whenever possible to examine widely and strongly held beliefs with GOOD evidence--the best being randomized controlled prospective trials (and without drug company bias would be even better.) Dr. Grossan has repeatedly made strong assertions, and even cited studies to support his claims and no study has ever verified the superiority of pulsatile irrigation. The recent Rhinology study showed that 1% baby shampoo irrigation prevented biofilms, but couldn't eradicate them. Yet, Dr. Grossan, with his "n" of a 5 person practice, believes that if delivered with pulsatile irrigation, the baby shampoo can eradicate biofilms. A study could be created to test this claim, but it hasn't been done. Numerous studies have been performed on nasal irrigations, but none have proven one method to be superior to others. So, personal experience and anecdotal evidence have their place, but you can't make a claim with certainty, without data to support it. All you can really say in that case, is that "in my experience this has been clinically useful". You can't say with any certainty that your belief is a certain and provable fact. Evidence based medicine is far from perfect; garbage in/garbage out, but it's an attempt to look at entrenched beliefs methodically so we can make informed judgements. Judy
I agree with that, at least when a person is making choices about his or her own treatment. However, I believe that a doctor has a responsibility to apply the "best evidence rule" when guiding patients' care. In the case of pulsatile irrigation, Dr. Grossan has been claiming that his method (and product) will restore moribund ciliary movement with certitude for a number of years, not just that it has been "clinically useful." When pressed for supporting evidence, it was reduced to being what he has experienced in his practice--pretty tepid after years of firm pronouncements. It would have been nice if he would have acknowledged that up front, years ago.
Evidence based medicine, as with all endeavors that use the scientific method, attempt to create reproduceable results under controlled circumstances. I guess that I am disappointed that he has never taken the trouble to do so, expecially before marketing a product.
truehawk - 03 Mar 2008 01:56 GMT > On Mar 2, 4:07 pm, "aroberts" <a-rober...@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > circumstances. I guess that I am disappointed that he has never taken the > trouble to do so, expecially before marketing a product. At least Murray knows he is fighting a biofilm infection and does not shuck and jive about the condition being caused by a strangely localized allergy. If he wants to recommend a fancy waterpik , so be it, it would evidently help a lot of people aviod the the regrowth of the biofilm after surgery when the thing would just reclaim it's old footprint otherwise. How many other ENTs have even come this far? Maybe 50 in the country?
Evidence based medicine as it is presently created is selectively retrospective. It looks at therapies and procedures that have already been in use for YEARS and attempts to ascertain if they work better than placebos or alternatives. With selective criteria for data inclusion, the outcome can manipulated any way the sponsor of the study (usually an insurance company) desires. Using this methodology they have come us with some really good ones, such as "antibiotics don't work for chronic sinusitis", which was a rather broad statement considering that the only antibiotic considered was amoxicillian, and the length of time that it was administered was 2 weeks.
judy.n - 04 Mar 2008 02:42 GMT > > "judy.n" <judy.nudel...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > considering that the only antibiotic considered was amoxicillian, and > the length of time that it was administered was 2 weeks. I agree with both of you: Dr. Grossan makes claims for his product and has never presented evidence to support the claims. I completely agree that the certitude is not supported. I'd prefer a statement that "I believe this to be true, based on my personal observations, but I can't prove that it removes biofilms or restores cilia". And Elizabeth, evidence based medicine is problematic, to say the least. The Cochrane collaborative makes me nuts: they use bizarre criteria and exclude the vast majority of studies, and reach no conclusions. The famous "antibiotics don't work in sinusitis" was performed over 5 years in England, with many practices contributing a single patient, and the criteria were purely clinical--so it was underpowered and inexact, and most patients probably had viral infections. And the news, and evidence based medicine took the misleading conclusion and ran with it. Anyone currently following the heparin mess: it has been manufactured in China in unsupervised conditions, much of it from almost home workshops, and repackaged and sold as the FDA approved product, and patients have been becoming ill and/or dying. Medicine is a mess. Judy Here's a citation from HealthCare Renewal: Pharma arguments and hogwash Heparin in an Era of Hogwash Heparin Made Out of Pigs from Elsewhere
The story began with a sudden increase in the rate of severe adverse effects occurring after the administration of heparin, a 70+ year old anti-clotting drug. Attention first focused on a Baxter International facility in New Jersey, but then it turned out the heparin was not really made there. A series of investigative reports found that the "active ingredient," that is, the heparin itself, came from a supplier called Scientific Protein Laboratories. But that company actually got the heparin from a factory in China, which, it turns out, was never inspected by the US FDA or any government agency from the US or China. Furthermore, that factory actually didn't make the heparin either, but obtained heparin from middle-men in China, who in turn apparently got the heparin from a number of suppliers, including tiny "workshops," where conditions were unsanitary and primitive, and which were never inspected by anyone. And the top leaders of Baxter and Scientific Protein Laboratories denied they actually knew where the heparin was coming from. This sorry tale of mismanagement raises doubt about the most basic quality of the US (and world) drug supply, so in some ways is even more serious than most of the cases heretofore reported on HCR. Anne Peticolas also noted the cynicism of US pharma execs who have raised doubts about drugs imported from Canada, while many companies are apparently outsourcing drug production to who knows where. Stay tuned for more about what may be an extremely important story. Link: http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/03/pharma-arguments-and-hogwash.html Link: http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/03/heparin-in-era-of-hogwash.html Link: http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/02/heparin-made-out-of-pigs-from-elsewhere.html
truehawk - 04 Mar 2008 04:14 GMT > > > "judy.n" <judy.nudel...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 136 lines] > Link:http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/03/heparin-in-era-of-hogwash.html > Link:http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/02/heparin-made-out-of-pigs-from-e... Good Grief Girl Wonder. Really. Time for the feathers and tar. Or we could really go for total broke and hit them with lawyers.
Michael - 05 Mar 2008 09:29 GMT > > > > "judy.n" <judy.nudel...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 140 lines] > Really. Time for the feathers and tar. > Or we could really go for total broke and hit them with lawyers. But folks, has anyone tried Heparin, (having the highest negative charge density of any known biological molecule) or plasmin (or a serine protease) in a solution against a chronic sinus infection biofilm -- in vitro, or in vivo as a lavage. If staph a is working on a fibrin base these should be reasonably effective -- in theory ...
Perhaps I am a little simple minded but it has alway struck me that, if the mucous and its structure could be understood sufficiently for an efficient/effective & constant removal method to be devised (beyond the mechanics of saline pulsate irrigation which have failed a number of us) it might help with functioning and, though not a 'cure,' (ie answers to the problem why does the mucous form in the first place, which seem multitudinous, from basic structural to immune problems, 'allergy,' and onward in complexity to AMCase etc., etc. ) might deal with the many problems that ensue from the excess glutenous mucous sticking and squatting in the sinus, trapping virus, breeding bacteria, promoting inflamation ig E etc., etc, etc,
Michael
truehawk - 05 Mar 2008 22:26 GMT > > > > > "judy.n" <judy.nudel...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 160 lines] > > Michael Precisely. When they get around to actually looking at what the "mucus" really is.
Maybe you or Judy or Doc might actually have the contacts to get "them" to notice and try it on a sample of CS mucus and see an enzyme like Heparin break it up? When my doctor left town and I tried to show a new ID what was there, that iodine stained some of the mucus but only protein digesting enzymes dissolved it, it was not long til security arrived.
Murray Grossan - 22 Feb 2008 02:55 GMT On 2/19/08 10:49 AM, in article 724bbd6f-85a0-4bc7-9347-80fc30ee862b@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com, "Michael" <mfrpersonal@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 19, 12:26 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Michael The article on using this shampoo is in the current Journal of Rhinology.
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