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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2008

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Irrigation and Baby shampoo

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Johnny1000@webtv.net - 14 Feb 2008 05:41 GMT
Did I read correctly... Do some add baby shampoo to the saline
irrigation fluid?  ...And if so, does it help?     ...(And do you risk
getting diarrhea if goes down your throat?)  ...Jon
Sergei91 - 14 Feb 2008 20:07 GMT
On Feb 13, 9:41 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
> Did I read correctly... Do some add baby shampoo to the saline
> irrigation fluid?  ...And if so, does it help?     ...(And do you risk
> getting diarrhea if goes down your throat?)  ...Jon

Yes, about 1 teaspoon to 500cc of water.  Does it help, I have been
doing it for about 2 months and can't say I see a huge difference,
however I am doing other therapies that may or may not be skewing the
results, so for me I'm going to continue doing it.  As for the
diarrhea, I did notice a slight "problem" in that area when I swallow
too much.
Sergei91
neil0502@yahoo.com - 14 Feb 2008 22:04 GMT
> On Feb 13, 9:41 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> too much.
> Sergei91

I'm trying SO hard not to ask you if it leaves your nose hairs soft
and manageable.

Honest, I am.
Sergei91 - 14 Feb 2008 22:16 GMT
On Feb 14, 2:04 pm, neil0...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > On Feb 13, 9:41 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Honest, I am.

Yes, and fuller too!  Honestly the question I get asked is can I blow
bubbles out of my nose to impress my daughter and her friends and the
answer is no :)
Sergei91
Fred - 21 Feb 2008 05:21 GMT
> On Feb 14, 2:04 pm, neil0...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not so funny!  When I get a lot of mucus buildup, I sometimes will
blow a bubble with one nostril.
Susan - 14 Feb 2008 22:38 GMT
> I'm trying SO hard not to ask you if it leaves your nose hairs soft
> and manageable.
>
> Honest, I am.

LOL!!

Very cute!

Susan
Murray Grossan - 15 Feb 2008 04:53 GMT
On 2/14/08 2:04 PM, in article
1562f909-5fe4-43b3-8abe-dae9337c66bd@n19g2000hsd.googlegroups.com,

> Yes, about 1 teaspoon to 500cc of water.
Should be to 500 cc of SALINE
Sergei91 - 15 Feb 2008 19:17 GMT
> On 2/14/08 2:04 PM, in article
> 1562f909-5fe4-43b3-8abe-dae9337c6...@n19g2000hsd.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Should be to 500 cc of SALINE

Yes, I forgot to say saline irrigation solution, sorry about that
Sergei
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 18 Feb 2008 12:28 GMT
>>Yes, about 1 teaspoon to 500cc of water.
>>Should be to 500 cc of SALINE
>
>Yes, I forgot to say saline irrigation solution,
> sorry about that Sergei

Well that's a different approach... I'm more concerned about the effects
of swallowing the shampoo.  ...There's a "get even" technique that
involves dipping a coffee cup in soapy water, and allowing it to dry.
..Then when the mark drinks from it, he gets the same affect as if he
had downed a good slug of castor oil.    ...I don't know...  If it comes
to a choice of having ongoing diarrhea or sinusitis...I think I might
choose the latter...  I would be interested to hear if any one else has
tried this regimen for treatment.    ...JOn
Murray Grossan - 19 Feb 2008 06:36 GMT
On 2/18/08 4:28 AM, in article
6112-47B979E3-851@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net, "Johnny1000@webtv.net"

>>> Yes, about 1 teaspoon to 500cc of water.
>>> Should be to 500 cc of SALINE
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> choose the latter...  I would be interested to hear if any one else has
> tried this regimen for treatment.    ...JOn

With pulsatile irrigation there is no reason to swallow any of the solution
since the head is bent forward and the stream doesn't get into the pharynx.
Michael - 19 Feb 2008 17:07 GMT
> On 2/18/08 4:28 AM, in article
> 6112-47B979E3-...@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net, "Johnny1...@webtv.net"
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> With pulsatile irrigation there is no reason to swallow any of the solution
> since the head is bent forward and the stream doesn't get into the pharynx.

.. I'm more concerned about the effects of swallowing the
shampoo.  ...

For what its worth I have been using the shampoo for two plus weeks
now, two or three times a day. I have yet to notice any diarrhea or
loose stool associated with same, except a reduction in occasional
lower g.i. discomfort that I have put down to a lessening of the
bacterial exotoxins which, for me, seem to disrupt the flora in the
colon.  [Over the years my experience has been that when the sinus run
badly the colon becomes slightly inflamed producing wind and loose
stool; probiotics help to reduce / eliminate  this .]

Michael
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 19 Feb 2008 17:26 GMT
hydromed@roadrunner.com (Murray Grossan) wrote:

>With pulsatile irrigation there is no reason to
> swallow any of the solution since the head is
> bent forward and the stream doesn't get into
> the pharynx.

This is true... However...
Well we all know, an hour after we irrigate, we bend over, and out comes
Niagara falls..  ....So, if it doesn't drain out, it has to drain down
the back of the throat...  This is the part of the irrigation fluid that
would worry me  -- especially if it contains a potent laxative.   ...Jon
Michael - 19 Feb 2008 18:49 GMT
On Feb 19, 12:26 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:

> >With pulsatile irrigation there is no reason to
> > swallow any of the solution since the head is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the back of the throat...  This is the part of the irrigation fluid that
> would worry me  -- especially if it contains a potent laxative.   ...Jon

" ... dipping a coffee cup in soapy water, and allowing it to dry.
..Then when the mark drinks from it, he gets the same affect as if he
had downed a good slug of castor oil. ..."

Soaps are water-soluble sodium or potassium salts of fatty acids, made
from fats and oils,  by treating them chemically with a strong alkali.
http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/blsapon.htm

The surfactants in J&J baby shampoo do not include a standard  'soap'
or a stearate;  hence the advertising of 'no more tears,' 'as gentle
to the eyes as pure water' etc. etc.

Michael
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 20 Feb 2008 04:21 GMT
>The surfactants in J&J baby shampoo do not
> include a standard 'soap' or a stearate; hence
> the advertising of 'no more tears,' 'as gentle to
> the eyes as pure water' etc. etc.

So what exactly is in it that's supposed to benefit sinusitis sufferers?  

..I'll give it a try...What the heck.  ...I guess even if it doesn't
help my sinusitis,  I'll still get a sparkling clean nose in the
process.  ....Jon
Michael - 20 Feb 2008 06:20 GMT
On Feb 19, 11:21 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:

> >The surfactants in J&J baby shampoo do not
> > include a standard 'soap' or a stearate; hence
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> help my sinusitis,  I'll still get a sparkling clean nose in the
> process.  ....Jon

So what exactly is in it that's supposed to benefit sinusitis
sufferers?

The surfactants: some are  are of a kind -- zwitterionic -- that have
been shown in lab tests  to be  effective in disrupting films formed
by bacteria from chronically infected sinuses.
Methods for removing bacterial biofilms: in vitro study using clinical
chronic rhinosinusitis specimens.
Am J Rhinol. 2007 Sep-Oct;21(5):527-32 PMID: 17883887

Michael
Susan - 20 Feb 2008 15:37 GMT
> On Feb 19, 11:21 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Michael

If it's surfactants, then why not try the stuff in fruit/vegetable
cleaning sprays?

Susan
Oakfed - 20 Feb 2008 17:46 GMT
>If it's surfactants, then why not try the stuff in fruit/vegetable
>cleaning sprays?

Presumably because the baby shampoo is already known to be safe to use
on mucosa, less likely to cause irritation. There could be other stuff
in the cleaning products.
Susan - 20 Feb 2008 21:28 GMT
>>If it's surfactants, then why not try the stuff in fruit/vegetable
>>cleaning sprays?
>
> Presumably because the baby shampoo is already known to be safe to use
> on mucosa, less likely to cause irritation. There could be other stuff
> in the cleaning products.

I think it's the other way around; the fruit/vegetable product is just
surfactant and water.

Susan
Michael - 20 Feb 2008 22:09 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Susan

"the fruit/vegetable product is just surfactant and water."

Surfactants are a class of compounds that reduce the surface tension
of liquids, there are very many of them with individual properties.
Unless you know the particular compound and what its effect might be
on tissue and the relatively delicate mucous membranes I would be
extremely reluctant to use it  for lavage.

As Oakfed said, what is known about the particular baby shampoo, and
ingredients, is that they have a relatively long history of generally
safe use.

Michael
neil0502@yahoo.com - 20 Feb 2008 18:36 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> If it's surfactants, then why not try the stuff in fruit/vegetable
> cleaning sprays?

I think I already do.

My witch's brew has grapefruit seed extract and food grade hydrogen
peroxide in it.  Those sound rather similar to what you're talking
about ... I think.

I haven't worked my way up to baby shampoo (or trail mix) just yet.
Murray Grossan - 22 Feb 2008 17:55 GMT
On 2/20/08 10:36 AM, in article
03907b37-cc72-4903-8b8b-38d209e18a2f@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,

>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> I haven't worked my way up to baby shampoo (or trail mix) just yet.

It is a degree of familiarity. The eye doctors have been recommending this
for cleaning the eye of crusts for years.
Michael - 25 Feb 2008 19:40 GMT
> On 2/20/08 10:36 AM, in article
> 03907b37-cc72-4903-8b8b-38d209e18...@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> It is a degree of familiarity. The eye doctors have been recommending this
> for cleaning the eye of crusts for years.

Baby shampoo nasal irrigations for the symptomatic post-functional
endoscopic sinus surgery patient

Authors: Chiu, Alexander G.1; Palmer, James N.1; Woodworth, Bradford A.
1; Doghramji, Laurel1; Cohen, Michael B.1; Prince, Anthony1; Cohen,
Noam A.1
Source: American Journal of Rhinology, Volume 22, Number 1, January/
February 2008 , pp. 34-37(4)
Publisher: OceanSide Publications, Inc

Abstract:
Background: Symptoms of postnasal drainage and thickened mucus are
commonly seen in patients with chronic rhinosinusitis (CRS)
recalcitrant to sinus surgery and conventional medical therapies.
Chemical surfactants can act as a mucolytic by reducing water surface
tension and have the potential to serve as an antimicrobial agent.
Baby shampoo is an inexpensive, commercially available solution
containing multiple chemical surfactants. This is an in vitro study of
its antimicrobial effects on Pseudomonas biofilms with translation to
a clinical study for use as an adjuvant nasal wash in patients with
CRS who remain symptomatic despite adequate sinus surgery and
conventional medical therapies.

Methods: In vitro testing was performed to determine the optimal
concentration of baby shampoo that disrupted preformed bacterial
biofilms and inhibited biofilm formation. This concentration was then
used in a prospective study of symptomatic post-functional endoscopic
sinus surgery (FESS) patients who irrigated twice a day for 4 weeks.
Validated outcome forms and objective smell testing was performed
before and after therapy.

Results: One percent baby shampoo in normal saline was the optimal
concentration for inhibition of Pseudomonas biofilm formation. Baby
shampoo had no effect on the eradication of preformed Pseudomonas
biofilms. Eighteen patients with CRS with an average of 2.8 surgeries
were studied after irrigating with 1% baby shampoo solution. Two
patients discontinued use because of minor nasal and skin irritations;
46.6% of patients experienced an overall improvement in their
subjective symptoms, and 60% of patients noted improvement in specific
symptoms of thickened mucus and postnasal drainage.

Conclusion: Baby shampoo nasal irrigation has promise as an
inexpensive, tolerable adjuvant to conventional medical therapies for
symptomatic patients after FESS. Its greatest benefit may be in
improving symptoms of thickened nasal discharge and postnasal
drainage.

Keywords: Adjunctive therapy; biofilm; FESS; irrigation; mucoactive
treatment; rhinosinusitis; shampoo; surfactant; topical

Document Type: Research article
DOI: 10.2500/ajr.2008.22.3122
Affiliations: 1: From the Division of Rhinology, Department of
Otorhinolaryngology-Head and Neck Surgery, University of Pennsylvania,
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ocean/ajr/2008/00000022/00000001/art00007
judy.n - 26 Feb 2008 02:28 GMT
> > On 2/20/08 10:36 AM, in article
> > 03907b37-cc72-4903-8b8b-38d209e18...@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>
> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ocean/ajr/2008/00000022/0000000...

Great reference:how do you achieve a 1% solution? 500 cc of saline has
been used as the amount of irrigation fluid--was there a previous
reference to a tsp of shampoo in this amount?
Judy
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 26 Feb 2008 05:42 GMT
>Great reference:how do you achieve a 1%
> solution? 500 cc of saline has been used as
> the amount of irrigation fluid--was there a
> previous reference to a tsp of shampoo in this
> amount?

Jesus, if I read it right, that would be like over a hundred teaspoons
per 500 cc.   ...This would give a whole new meaning to the tune: "I'm
forever blowing bubbles."

I tried about 3 rounds of the 1 teaspoon per 500 cc, but I ended up with
a booming headache..  It just irritated the hell out of my sinuses.

Surprisingly though, I couldn't taste any soap, following the
irrigation.
  ...As a youngster, I had my mouth washed out with soap, once, for
swearing.  ...Definitely cured that problem...  Nothing tastes worse.
..Jon
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 26 Feb 2008 14:12 GMT
>Jesus, if I read it right, that would be like over
> a hundred teaspoons per 500 cc.

Ooppps.. Pardon my last post..  Yesterday, I was  delirious  from
actually seeing some dirt showing through after 4 months of snow.   ...I
didn't take my math far enough.  ...A 1% solution would be 1 tsp. per
500cc.  ...Jon
judy.n - 26 Feb 2008 16:52 GMT
On Feb 26, 9:12 am, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
> Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> didn't take my math far enough.  ...A 1% solution would be 1 tsp. per
> 500cc.  ...Jon

Thanks for the math/1% solution--too bad it gave you a headache, my
reading of the article is that it PREVENTS biofilms, but doesn't
disrupt them once formed.
Spring will come.....
Judy
truehawk - 27 Feb 2008 01:08 GMT
> On Feb 26, 9:12 am, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Spring will come.....
> Judy

I tried baby shampoo 8 years ago, and nail polish remover and
turpintine, and acetone, and Adoph's meat tenderizer.
Some were ineffective, and some too agressive.

Try the tannin tea, crystal lite, or red wine.
Murray Grossan - 27 Feb 2008 06:50 GMT
On 2/26/08 8:52 AM, in article
0f5541b3-11ea-4c31-9ed5-5174627742e1@h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"

>  my
> reading of the article is that it PREVENTS biofilms, but doesn't
> disrupt them once formed.
The purpose of the shampoo is to make it easier to remove biofilm colonies.
Used in pulsatlle irrigation it has proven to be an asset for removing
biofilm colonies from the nose and sinuses.
judy.n - 27 Feb 2008 13:56 GMT
> On 2/26/08 8:52 AM, in article
> 0f5541b3-11ea-4c31-9ed5-517462774...@h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"

> The purpose of the shampoo is to make it easier to remove biofilm colonies.
> Used in pulsatlle irrigation it has proven to be an asset for removing
> biofilm colonies from the nose and sinuses.

The article specifically states that baby shampoo does not eradicate
biofilms once they're formed, it is helpful in preventing their
formation and thinning thickened mucous:
 
One percent baby shampoo in normal saline was the optimal
concentration for inhibition of Pseudomonas biofilm formation. Baby
shampoo had no effect on the eradication of preformed Pseudomonas
biofilms

So per the article, you are not removing biofilm colonies, just
preventing them with baby shampoo.

You were the one who directed us to the Rhinology citation.

Judy
Murray Grossan - 29 Feb 2008 03:57 GMT
On 2/27/08 5:56 AM, in article
120be858-df11-4c09-81c2-354d5f89f197@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"

>> On 2/26/08 8:52 AM, in article
>> 0f5541b3-11ea-4c31-9ed5-517462774...@h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Judy
Judy it is used with pulsatile irrigation for removal of biofilm.
Susan - 29 Feb 2008 14:46 GMT
> On 2/27/08 5:56 AM, in article
> 120be858-df11-4c09-81c2-354d5f89f197@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Judy it is used with pulsatile irrigation for removal of biofilm.

Murray, can you furnish any independent studies that show pulsatile
irrigation removes biofilm, and does so more effectively than other
methods of irrigation?

So far, we've found that none of the claims you make for PI are
substantiated by any research, including the citations you've provided,
when we look closely at them.

Susan
judy.n - 01 Mar 2008 12:55 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Susan
Thanks for being so direct Susan: the evidence doesn't support the
claims. The article is pretty clear about that: baby shampoo prevents
biofilms, there's no mention of pulsatile irrigation with baby shampoo
eradicating biofilms. I'd embrace it if it had evidence to support the
claims.
 Judy
Susan - 01 Mar 2008 18:54 GMT
> Thanks for being so direct Susan: the evidence doesn't support the
> claims. The article is pretty clear about that: baby shampoo prevents
> biofilms, there's no mention of pulsatile irrigation with baby shampoo
> eradicating biofilms. I'd embrace it if it had evidence to support the
> claims.

I'm nothing if not direct!  :-)

It's not the first time that unsupported claims have been made by Dr.
Grossan, nor is it the first time he's gone silent when asked to provide
citations to support his claims.

Susan
Murray Grossan - 02 Mar 2008 02:13 GMT
On 3/1/08 10:54 AM, in article 62tn2nF24og6lU1@mid.individual.net, "Susan"
<nevermind@nomail.com> wrote:

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> eradicating biofilms. I'd embrace it if it had evidence to support the
>> claims.

No citations, just the experience of my 5 person ENT group.
Susan - 02 Mar 2008 03:51 GMT
> No citations, just the experience of my 5 person ENT group.

So, basically, zero evidence to support your claims.

Susan
scottburrus@comcast.net - 02 Mar 2008 04:22 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Susan

I too appreciate the directness. I used the PI for awhile, and really
liked it, but then what was once a strong flow of water became a
trickle.  Alas, warranty expired, and I returned to my trusty NeilMed
bottle, but this time the big daddy, 16 oz. bottle.  I decided to try
the 1 tsp. of baby shampoo, and low and behold about a half hour later
I did blow out this weird, sludge-like substance that I've never seen
before (and after 6 years of irrigating and 2 surgeries I've seen it
all).  Could it be biofilm?

BTW - Anyone ever used J's Nose Drops?
Susan - 02 Mar 2008 04:50 GMT
> I too appreciate the directness. I used the PI for awhile, and really
> liked it, but then what was once a strong flow of water became a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> BTW - Anyone ever used J's Nose Drops?

What are J drops?

And that's *lo* and behold, unless you're a cow.  ;-)

Susan
aroberts - 02 Mar 2008 21:07 GMT
> On 3/1/08 10:54 AM, in article 62tn2nF24og6lU1@mid.individual.net, "Susan"
> <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
> No citations, just the experience of my 5 person ENT group.

So anecdotal evidence is good enough for you?  Would you treat your patients
with a drug that had not been tested under controlled and peer-reviewed
studies?
judy.n - 02 Mar 2008 23:07 GMT
> > On 3/1/08 10:54 AM, in article 62tn2nF24og6...@mid.individual.net, "Susan"
> > <neverm...@nomail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> with a drug that had not been tested under controlled and peer-reviewed
> studies?

Anecdotal evidence has its place, but the whole point of evidence
based medicine is to try--whenever possible to examine widely and
strongly held beliefs with GOOD evidence--the best being randomized
controlled prospective trials (and without drug company bias would be
even better.) Dr. Grossan has repeatedly made strong assertions, and
even cited studies to support his claims and no study has ever
verified the superiority of pulsatile irrigation. The recent Rhinology
study showed that 1% baby shampoo irrigation prevented biofilms, but
couldn't eradicate them. Yet, Dr. Grossan, with his "n" of a 5 person
practice, believes that if delivered with pulsatile irrigation, the
baby shampoo can eradicate biofilms. A study could be created to test
this claim, but it hasn't been done. Numerous studies have been
performed on nasal irrigations, but none have proven one method to be
superior to others.
 So, personal experience and anecdotal evidence have their place, but
you can't make a claim with certainty, without data to support it. All
you can really say in that case, is that "in my experience this has
been clinically useful". You can't say with any certainty that your
belief is a certain and provable fact.
 Evidence based medicine is far from perfect; garbage in/garbage out,
but it's an attempt to look at entrenched beliefs methodically so we
can make informed judgements.
Judy
aroberts - 03 Mar 2008 00:19 GMT
On Mar 2, 4:07 pm, "aroberts" <a-rober...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Murray Grossan" <hydro...@roadrunner.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> with a drug that had not been tested under controlled and peer-reviewed
> studies?

Anecdotal evidence has its place, but the whole point of evidence
based medicine is to try--whenever possible to examine widely and
strongly held beliefs with GOOD evidence--the best being randomized
controlled prospective trials (and without drug company bias would be
even better.) Dr. Grossan has repeatedly made strong assertions, and
even cited studies to support his claims and no study has ever
verified the superiority of pulsatile irrigation. The recent Rhinology
study showed that 1% baby shampoo irrigation prevented biofilms, but
couldn't eradicate them. Yet, Dr. Grossan, with his "n" of a 5 person
practice, believes that if delivered with pulsatile irrigation, the
baby shampoo can eradicate biofilms. A study could be created to test
this claim, but it hasn't been done. Numerous studies have been
performed on nasal irrigations, but none have proven one method to be
superior to others.
 So, personal experience and anecdotal evidence have their place, but
you can't make a claim with certainty, without data to support it. All
you can really say in that case, is that "in my experience this has
been clinically useful". You can't say with any certainty that your
belief is a certain and provable fact.
 Evidence based medicine is far from perfect; garbage in/garbage out,
but it's an attempt to look at entrenched beliefs methodically so we
can make informed judgements.
Judy

I agree with that, at least when a person is making choices about his or her
own treatment.  However, I believe that a doctor has a responsibility to
apply the "best evidence rule" when guiding patients' care.  In the case of
pulsatile irrigation, Dr. Grossan has been claiming that his method (and
product) will restore moribund ciliary movement with certitude for a number
of years, not just that it has been "clinically useful."  When pressed for
supporting evidence, it was reduced to being what he has experienced in his
practice--pretty tepid after years of firm pronouncements.  It would have
been nice if he would have acknowledged that up front, years ago.

Evidence based medicine, as with all endeavors that use the scientific
method, attempt to create reproduceable results under controlled
circumstances.  I guess that I am disappointed that he has never taken the
trouble to do so, expecially before marketing a product.
truehawk - 03 Mar 2008 01:56 GMT
> On Mar 2, 4:07 pm, "aroberts" <a-rober...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> circumstances.  I guess that I am disappointed that he has never taken the
> trouble to do so, expecially before marketing a product.

At least Murray knows he is fighting a biofilm infection and does not
shuck and jive about the condition being caused by a strangely
localized allergy.
If he wants to recommend a fancy waterpik , so be it, it would
evidently help a lot of people aviod the the regrowth of the biofilm
after surgery when the thing would just reclaim it's old footprint
otherwise.
How many other ENTs have even come this far? Maybe 50 in the country?

Evidence based medicine as it is presently created is selectively
retrospective. It looks at therapies and procedures that have already
been in use for YEARS and attempts to ascertain if they work better
than placebos or alternatives. With selective criteria for data
inclusion, the outcome can manipulated any way the sponsor of the
study (usually an insurance company) desires.  Using this methodology
they have come us with some really good ones, such as "antibiotics
don't work for chronic sinusitis", which was a rather broad statement
considering that the only antibiotic considered was amoxicillian, and
the length of time that it was administered was 2 weeks.
judy.n - 04 Mar 2008 02:42 GMT
> > "judy.n" <judy.nudel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> considering that the only antibiotic considered was amoxicillian, and
> the length of time that it was administered was 2 weeks.

I agree with both of you: Dr. Grossan makes claims for his product and
has never presented evidence to support the claims. I completely agree
that the certitude is not supported. I'd prefer  a statement that "I
believe this to be true, based on my personal observations, but I
can't prove that it removes biofilms or restores cilia".
 And Elizabeth, evidence based medicine is problematic, to say the
least. The Cochrane collaborative makes me nuts: they use bizarre
criteria and exclude the vast majority of studies, and reach no
conclusions. The famous "antibiotics don't work in sinusitis" was
performed over 5 years in England, with many practices contributing a
single patient, and the criteria were purely clinical--so it was
underpowered and inexact, and most patients probably had viral
infections. And the news, and evidence based medicine took the
misleading conclusion and ran with it.
  Anyone currently following the heparin mess: it has been
manufactured in China in unsupervised conditions, much of it from
almost home workshops, and repackaged and sold as the FDA approved
product, and patients have been becoming ill and/or dying. Medicine is
a mess.
Judy
 Here's a citation from HealthCare Renewal:
Pharma arguments and hogwash
Heparin in an Era of Hogwash
Heparin Made Out of Pigs from Elsewhere

The story began with a sudden increase in the rate of severe adverse
effects occurring after the administration of heparin, a 70+ year old
anti-clotting drug.  Attention first focused on a Baxter International
facility in New Jersey, but then it turned out the heparin was not
really made there.  A series of investigative reports found that the
"active ingredient," that is, the heparin itself, came from a supplier
called Scientific Protein Laboratories.  But that company actually got
the heparin from a factory in China, which, it turns out, was never
inspected by the US FDA or any government agency from the US or
China.  Furthermore, that factory actually didn't make the heparin
either, but obtained heparin from middle-men in China, who in turn
apparently got the heparin from a number of suppliers, including tiny
"workshops," where conditions were unsanitary and primitive, and which
were never inspected by anyone.  And the top leaders of Baxter and
Scientific Protein Laboratories denied they actually knew where the
heparin was coming from.  This sorry tale of mismanagement raises
doubt about the most basic quality of the US (and world) drug supply,
so in some ways is even more serious than most of the cases heretofore
reported on HCR.  Anne Peticolas also noted the cynicism of US pharma
execs who have raised doubts about drugs imported from Canada, while
many companies are apparently outsourcing drug production to who knows
where.
Stay tuned for more about what may be an extremely important story.
Link: http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/03/pharma-arguments-and-hogwash.html
Link: http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/03/heparin-in-era-of-hogwash.html
Link: http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/02/heparin-made-out-of-pigs-from-elsewhere.html
truehawk - 04 Mar 2008 04:14 GMT
> > > "judy.n" <judy.nudel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 136 lines]
> Link:http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/03/heparin-in-era-of-hogwash.html
> Link:http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/02/heparin-made-out-of-pigs-from-e...

Good Grief Girl Wonder.
Really. Time for the feathers and tar.
Or we could really go for total broke and hit them with lawyers.
Michael - 05 Mar 2008 09:29 GMT
> > > > "judy.n" <judy.nudel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 140 lines]
> Really. Time for the feathers and tar.
> Or we could really go for total broke and hit them with lawyers.

But folks, has anyone tried Heparin, (having the highest negative
charge density of any known biological molecule)  or plasmin (or a
serine protease) in a solution against a chronic sinus infection
biofilm --  in vitro, or in vivo as a lavage. If staph a is working on
a fibrin base these should be reasonably effective -- in theory ...

Perhaps I am a little simple minded but it  has alway struck me that,
if the mucous and its structure could be understood sufficiently for
an efficient/effective & constant  removal method to be devised
(beyond the mechanics of saline pulsate irrigation which have failed a
number of us)   it might help with functioning and, though  not a
'cure,' (ie answers to the problem why does the mucous form in the
first place, which seem multitudinous, from basic structural to immune
problems, 'allergy,' and onward in complexity to AMCase etc., etc. )
might deal with the many problems that ensue  from the excess
glutenous mucous sticking and squatting in the sinus, trapping virus,
breeding bacteria, promoting inflamation ig E etc., etc, etc,

Michael
truehawk - 05 Mar 2008 22:26 GMT
> > > > > "judy.n" <judy.nudel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 160 lines]
>
> Michael

Precisely.
When they get around to actually looking at what the "mucus" really
is.

Maybe you or Judy or Doc might actually have the contacts to get
"them" to notice and try it on a sample of CS mucus and see  an enzyme
like Heparin break it up?
When my doctor left town and I tried to show a new ID what was there,
that iodine stained some of the mucus but only protein digesting
enzymes dissolved it, it was not long til security arrived.
Murray Grossan - 22 Feb 2008 02:55 GMT
On 2/19/08 10:49 AM, in article
724bbd6f-85a0-4bc7-9347-80fc30ee862b@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com, "Michael"
<mfrpersonal@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 19, 12:26 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Michael
The article on using this shampoo is in the current Journal of Rhinology.

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