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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / February 2008How often do you irrigate?
after getting back a sinus infection (urgent care doc only gave me a zpak), i was miserable enough to get a neti pot and try it out. I definitely feel better after using it. I just got a neti pot kit. It has the salt and some neti wash stuff to put in it. I haven't used that yet. Some have talked about baking soda.. how much? how often? thanks..hoping omnicef will kick out the infection this time Tracey > after getting back a sinus infection (urgent care doc only gave me a > zpak), i was miserable enough to get a neti pot and try it out. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Tracey I used to have to irrigate daily just to keep a low level of infection, even while on antibiotics. During colds, I irrigated two or three times per day, very gently. Since taking a very high dose of vit D3 a while back, I only have irrigated when congested by allergy, or experiencing drip, like 2 times per week. I've not felt nor seen significant signs of infection since using D3, nor has my sister, who experienced the same sudden drainage from her infected sinus about an hour after taking 10,000iu of vitamin D3 in a gel cap. It WORKS, folks, just the way I'd read about. Honorable mention to Elizabeth/Truehawk for the black tea irrigation suggestion; I was congested twice from allergy (needed to clean my room humidifier) and the tea with saline solution *really* causes a lot of drainage and seems to dry out the nose and sinus. I just flew to and from FL with no sinus worsening, too. I strongly recommend weekly high doses of D3 gel caps for a few weeks and the tea irrigation solution. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Susan This is interesting, and it makes sense that D3 would open things up--it's a secosteroid--related to prednisone. To be clear, are you dosing 10,000iu once a week? I know that the Food and Nutrition board set the UL of vit D extremely conservatively (some would argue paranoically) low at 2000iu. Thanks. Interesting... i have some sublingual D3. Haven't had it out in a while > > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Thanks. > Interesting... i have some sublingual D3. Haven't had it out in a > while The only recommended form of D3 I know of is the gel caps. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Susan "I've not felt nor seen significant signs of infection since using D3, nor has my sister, who experienced the same sudden drainage from her infected sinus about an hour after taking 10,000iu of vitamin D3 in a gel cap. It WORKS, folks, just the way I'd read about. " Susan: I read your inspiring initial posts: it has not worked for me, alas. After reading the literature & suggestions of the Vit. D Council tried the following: 100,000 i.u. for 3 days followed by 10,000 i.u. per day for 30 days. All were in cap form from a supplier recommended by the Vit. D Council. [To explain my apparently eccentric high dosage: 2.5 mg (for vit D = 100,000 i.u.) was the single dose used in this TB trial ( http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/176/2/208 ) and had to be safe (singe dosages of 300,000 i.u., are used in Europe to counteract deficiency); vit D daily consumption appears to be +/- 4,800 i.u. ; vit D production from sun exposure appears to cut off at +/- 20,000 i.u. per day. Therefore, even following the thee day of 'super dosing' the daily dose of 10,000 did not seem, to me, to be risking toxicity.] Michael > Susan: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 'super dosing' the daily dose of 10,000 did not seem, to me, to be > risking toxicity.] Michael, vit D can both up or down regulate your immunity. Those doses are for deficiency. If you don't have deficiency, they'll suppress you. Is it possible that's what happened here? Also, my sister and I both get strong allergy desensitization shots and use encasements and air cleaners in our rooms, etc. Sorry if you got no bang for your buck, but I'd drop that dose unless you're having serology coming back with 25(OH)D deficiency documented. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Susan Thanks Susan. I am almost certain I am deficient (have been on prednisone 10 mg. every other day for the last year, the prior year was daily dose). The effect of the prednisone dose on the immune system probably also explains why nothing happened -- but I had hoped it would do something to persuade the bacteria it was time to leave. Will get a test on my next MD visit. The course I gave myself was 600,000 i.u. over 33 days; I calculated that this would be about the same as from the sun exposure during a month in the Caribbean. And though I did not get the particular 'bang' for the buck I had hoped, I do have an overall sense of 'well being' and feel more like my 'old' pre-sinusitis self; the symptoms have not changed but I am handling them better. I also have two free standing HEPA air filters in the house but so far no allergy has been discovered (skin and RAST tests) -- anti histamines old and new rapidly just clog me solid and make the mess worse to move, as does Singular. That is why I am so happy to have found out about the Tea rinse, J&J shampoo etc. After seven years of this nonsense, like Marla a cold that never left, anything reasonably sane, however eccentric sounding, I am prepared to give at least a try just to get the crud moving on out. Michael > This is interesting, and it makes sense that D3 would open things up--it's a > secosteroid--related to prednisone. To be clear, are you dosing 10,000iu I don't think the steroid action has anything to do with this effect, I think it's the anti microbial and immunity enhancements, actually. Steroids suppress my adrenals terribly, and D3 did, when I took the high dose for too long. I was using it three times per week, and endocrinologists recommend 50,000 once per week for those who are deficient. But 10,000 once per week has worked for others I've shared this with. > once a week? > > I know that the Food and Nutrition board set the UL of vit D extremely > conservatively (some would argue paranoically) low at 2000iu. Yes, but the vitamin D council of researchers disagrees strongly. Most people are deficient. Susan Could anyone of you point me to a reliable online supplier? Here, vit D3 is only available in very low doses (i.e. I would have to swallow somewhere between 10 to 25 pills in order to reach 10,000) and I haven't seen gel caps either. Doing very well currently (with a very strict exercise regime, sauna and enough rest - no irrigation, no sprays, no pills) but I would like this infection to resolve completely. Andi P.S.: So the dosage would be 10,000 once a week for a month? > I was using it three times per week, and endocrinologists recommend > 50,000 once per week for those who are deficient. But 10,000 once per > week has worked for others I've shared this with. > Could anyone of you point me to a reliable online supplier? Here, vit D3 > is only available in very low doses (i.e. I would have to swallow > somewhere between 10 to 25 pills in order to reach 10,000) and I haven't > seen gel caps either. Carlson manufactures a 2000 iu gel cap; do a google product search and see whose price is best. > Doing very well currently (with a very strict exercise regime, sauna and > enough rest - no irrigation, no sprays, no pills) but I would like this > infection to resolve completely. Have you also tried the black tea/saline irrigation? It really helps get stuff out. > Andi > > P.S.: So the dosage would be 10,000 once a week for a month? If you are deficient, it's 50,000 once a week until normal on serology. If you're using it for sinus infection without deficiency, you should feel intense drainage about one hour after taking it, as my sister and I both did. I took 10,000 iu a few times per week for two weeks, but if your results are good enough, why take more than that? If they aren't, try it for a couple of weeks or so. Unless you're testing your 25(OH)D, I wouldn't megadose long term, frankly; it's a steroid hormone, and you don't want to suppress, which is what happened to me after taking that dose for too long. Susan > Carlson manufactures a 2000 iu gel cap; do a google product search and > see whose price is best. Considering the additional shipping costs and the fact that I don't need 120 caps, I'm reconsidering simply getting the pills here and swallowing 10 of those. Would that make a big difference? (I assume that the only advantage of the caps would be the added oil/fats helping to absorb the vitamin d3?). I'd aim at 10,000 once a week for now. > Have you also tried the black tea/saline irrigation? It really helps > get stuff out. Well I only have problems with the right frontal sinus and I'm not really clogged up by the mucus, it's simply the polyps sometimes swelling up that bother me. Of course there is some drainage but only very little. I might give it a try though. I stopped saline irrigation last year and weaned myself off the steroid spray as it was just a waste of time. > Considering the additional shipping costs and the fact that I don't need > 120 caps, I'm reconsidering simply getting the pills here and swallowing > 10 of those. Would that make a big difference? (I assume that the only > advantage of the caps would be the added oil/fats helping to absorb the > vitamin d3?). > I'd aim at 10,000 once a week for now. I've read that the pills aren't well absorbed, but I have no citation for that at the moment. But if it works you'll know. The drainage is sudden and dramatic. > Well I only have problems with the right frontal sinus and I'm not > really clogged up by the mucus, it's simply the polyps sometimes > swelling up that bother me. Of course there is some drainage but only > very little. I might give it a try though. > I stopped saline irrigation last year and weaned myself off the steroid > spray as it was just a waste of time. Good for you, getting off the steroid; it ultimately causes more of the problem it's meant to treat, by shutting down endogenous steroid production and prompting more release of proinflammatory corticotropin releasing hormone. My right frontal is the only one that shows mucosal thickening, too, on C-T scan. Susan On 2/13/08 6:32 AM, in article 61gdc2F1uhgk8U1@mid.individual.net, "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Susan High doses of Vitamin D may have toxic effect. Many years ago Vit D was popular as a cure for Arthritis until they found it caused serious kidney stones. I have no information on D3 but any time you use an unproven dose as to safety there may be a risk. There are products recommended in high doses but until there is evidence of safety caution is important. > High doses of Vitamin D may have toxic effect. Many years ago Vit D was > popular as a cure for Arthritis until they found it caused serious kidney > stones. I have no information on D3 but any time you use an unproven dose as > to safety there may be a risk. > There are products recommended in high doses but until there is evidence > of safety caution is important. Murray, your information is hopelessly out of date, wrt vit D toxicity, and it has a lot to do with promoting a crisis of vitamin D deficiency that is epidemic. Google up the vitamin D research council; they put the levels for safe usage much higher than I've advised, time limited, here. Susan On 2/14/08 6:38 AM, in article 61j21sF1un0sdU1@mid.individual.net, "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Susan You are probably correct, as I said I am not familiar with this one. But I have lived through many episodes where overdosage has been shown to be harmful and brand new drugs have too. I try not to be the first kid on the block. One time colloidal silver was hailed as the cure all. Later we found argyrosis. > You are probably correct, as I said I am not familiar with this one. But I > have lived through many episodes where overdosage has been shown to be > harmful and brand new drugs have too. I try not to be the first kid on the > block. One time colloidal silver was hailed as the cure all. Later we found > argyrosis. We're not talking about overdosage, we're talking about a safe, non toxic level for a limited time of something that's apparently cured me and my sister, for example. I have an awful URI of a week's duration right now, and I've only irrigated twice; I have no signs or symptoms of sinus infection at all. Read the previous threads with citations on this group recently wrt Vit D3, you may find the *real* sinus cure, though it would be bad for your business interests: About antimicrobial effect: http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20061111/bob9.asp http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/newsletter/2006-june-july.shtml About toxicity: http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/vitaminDToxicity.shtml Explore the research council site for fascinating information and clinical applications. All the Cushing's patients I know find that Vit D3 cures chronic sinus infection (a constant in Cushing's), muscle and bone pain. Susan Check out publications by these folks: http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/scientists.shtml Susan > x-no-archive: yes > > Check out publications by these folks: > > http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/scientists.shtml There seem to be a bunch of relevant studies here: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/85/1/6/T1 >>x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/85/1/6/T1 Thanks for that page, Neil. I don't want to come off as suggesting that D3 is a panacea, only that it's safe, non toxic even in much higher than typical doses, most folks are deficient and that my own experience, my sister's and that of numerous other folks is that it cures even very longstanding chronic sinus infections. Thank goodness I never had unnecessary and typically non curative surgery before discovering this effect. If it works, you seem to get the intense drainage (at least my sister, I and one other person I know did) shortly after taking it, an hour after, for my sister and I. I had the last remnants come out all at once the next a.m. after irrigation. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Susan Ah. I missed this page. I'll check it out when I can. Meanwhile, I'm sticking with my healthy (< LD50) dose of skepticism for just now.... ;-) [snip] > Read the previous threads with citations on this group recently wrt Vit > D3, you may find the *real* sinus cure, though it would be bad for your > business interests: [snip] > http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/vitaminDToxicity.shtml > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Susan I don't have a whole lot of information on any of this, Susan, honestly, but ... for one with a skeptical bent as yourself (which I admire, BTW), what do YOU know about this "Vitamin D Council??" All I can see is that it seems to be one guy -- John Jacob Cannell MD. Is there $$ involved?? If so, then it flows from whom and to whom?? Is this info all peer-reviewed?? You see what I mean?? I really dunno' about D3 much at all, but .... I'm not quite certain that this website because authoritative reference material in my book quite yet..... Neil > I don't have a whole lot of information on any of this, Susan, > honestly, but ... for one with a skeptical bent as yourself (which I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm not quite certain that this website because authoritative > reference material in my book quite yet..... The researchers cited are highly credible. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > The researchers cited are highly credible. Hm. Perhaps not surprisingly, that doesn't necessarily help ;-) > Hm. > > Perhaps not surprisingly, that doesn't necessarily help ;-) I know exactly what you mean. But I meant it literally, not because of credentials. Besides, with my richly detailed anecdotal n of 3 or 4, what else do you need? ;-D Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Besides, with my richly detailed anecdotal n of 3 or 4, what else do you > need? ;-D Alright .... NOW I'm sold ;-) On 2/14/08 11:30 AM, in article 4048e846-56e2-4783-88ff-cb08ed4af154@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com, > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Neil Again, don't get me wrong, I haven't investigated this as I am seldom the first kid on the block. But I have been there before. You should see the glowing insistent reports on Laetril, cures EVERYTHING and the doctors are suppressing it because it will hurt their business. Even polititions got involved pushing that one. Take a look at Ear Stop. A couple of drops and voila no more tinnitus! Look at the glowing happy testimonials. See the happy, handsome faces. And the doctors suppress it so they can make money on the pain of others. Want 101 other "cures" ? > Again, don't get me wrong, I haven't investigated this as I am seldom the > first kid on the block. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Want 101 other "cures" ? This is ironic, given the title of your book. Somebody's irony meter is broken. Vitamin D deficiency can be easily tested by checking 25(OH)D levels, which must be above 32 at a minimum. My level was normal, but taking a very high dose of D short term has proven to be my sinus cure. It's completely safe and easy to tell if it's worked or not. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Google up the vitamin D research council; they put the levels for safe > usage much higher than I've advised, time limited, here. According to the Mayo Clinic website: The daily "upper limit" for vitamin D is 25 micrograms (1,000 IU) for infants up to 12 months of age and 50 micrograms (2,000 IU) for children, adults, pregnant, and lactating women due to toxicities that can occur when taken in higher doses. The "Vitamin D Council" is a group of ordinary folks who got themselves a website. Its leader is a political activist who has worked on a variety of other trendy causes before glomming onto Vitamin D. It is not a recognized authority on nutrition.  SignatureSteven L. Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. > According to the Mayo Clinic website: > The daily "upper limit" for vitamin D is 25 micrograms (1,000 IU) for > infants up to 12 months of age and 50 micrograms (2,000 IU) for > children, adults, pregnant, and lactating women due to toxicities that > can occur when taken in higher doses. That's old, outdated and not supported by the research, like most of the Mayo health information on their web site. > The "Vitamin D Council" is a group of ordinary folks who got themselves > a website. Its leader is a political activist who has worked on a > variety of other trendy causes before glomming onto Vitamin D. It is > not a recognized authority on nutrition. There are an awful lot of academic researchers at odds with your statements. For good reason. Most folks are deficient. Endocrinologists treat deficiencies with 50,000 iu weekly til levels are over 32, preferably closer to 100 or the middle of the range from 32-100. After weeks of megadosing 10,000 iu Vit D3 and then stopping weeks ago, my 2/1/08 level was 62. And I haven't a hint of sinusitis or infection despite having had a wicked URI all week and not irrigating daily. For someone who routinely recommends invasive and often damaging surgery for anyone with an infection, you sure are anti safe intervention. Susan >> According to the Mayo Clinic website: >> The daily "upper limit" for vitamin D is 25 micrograms (1,000 IU) for [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > After weeks of megadosing 10,000 iu Vit D3 and then stopping weeks ago, > my 2/1/08 level was 62. The scientific community has NEVER accepted the notion of megadose vitamin therapy as curative for disease. Never. There are only a very few exceptions to that rule, such as high-dose niacin for cholesterol--but even that is known to risk serious side effects. The human body is designed to use a certain amount of nutrients. Go way beyond that and those nutrients are either excreted or build up causing serious side effects. I'm all for informed adult consumers using whatever they want to use on their bodies. Regardless of whether it's scientifically accepted or not. But megadose vitamin therapy is NOT an accepted medical practice. At least not by mainstream medicine. You ought to ask your endocrinologist what double-blind controlled studies support the treatment that he has prescribed for you. The NIH office of Dietary Supplements agrees with the Mayo Clinic recommendations. There is a tight upper limit on how much Vitamin D may be safely consumed, and you went way above that limit. I'm glad you personally suffered no ill effects. http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamind.asp BTW, while megadose vitamin therapy is considered "fringe medical science," surgery remains the treatment of choice for chronic sinusitis. At least two different controlled follow-up studies have demonstrated the lasting value of surgery. SignatureSteven L. Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. Read the recent article on Vitamin D deficiency in the Scientific American. Blades On 2/15/08 5:53 AM, in article 13rb6bjsgpk572d@corp.supernews.com, "Steven L." <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote: >>> According to the Mayo Clinic website: >>> The daily "upper limit" for vitamin D is 25 micrograms (1,000 IU) for [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > At least two different controlled follow-up studies have demonstrated > the lasting value of surgery. For example doses of Pydridoxine over 100 mg twice a day is definitely toxic. Yet I have seen that dose recommended! > On 2/15/08 5:53 AM, in article 13rb6bjsgpk572d@corp.supernews.com, "Steven > L." <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > For example doses of Pydridoxine over 100 mg twice a day is definitely > toxic. Yet I have seen that dose recommended! I once tried large doses of beta carotene. My feet and hands ended up looking like I had dipped them in yellow dye. Fortunately, that effect disappears when the intake of beta carotene stops. SignatureSteven L. Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. > I once tried large doses of beta carotene. My feet and hands ended up > looking like I had dipped them in yellow dye. Fortunately, that effect > disappears when the intake of beta carotene stops. That's not toxic, though, just silly looking. It's common in babies fed a lot of pureed carrots as a first food, too. Susan > The scientific community has NEVER accepted the notion of megadose > vitamin therapy as curative for disease. Never. So what? They have lousy record of getting things right, hence low fat diets that lead to epidemics of diabetes, heart disease and kidney failure, HRT for women that caused, didn't prevent the conditions they claimed for decades, the acceptance of SIDS as heritable that led to undetected homicides, and approval of lots of therapies and drugs that treat surrogate end points while causing loss of quality of life and even deaths. > But megadose vitamin therapy is NOT an accepted medical practice. At > least not by mainstream medicine. You ought to ask your endocrinologist > what double-blind controlled studies support the treatment that he has > prescribed for you. You're completely wrong. Megadosing of vitamin D up to 50,000 iu per day is well accepted by endocrinology researchers, including my own, chief of dept. and former NIH fellow endocrinologist. > The NIH office of Dietary Supplements agrees with the Mayo Clinic > recommendations. There is a tight upper limit on how much Vitamin D may [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > At least two different controlled follow-up studies have demonstrated > the lasting value of surgery. You're still awfully ill for someone who's getting lasting benefits from surgery. So is Judy, who had access to the putative "best" in academic medical settings. High dose vitamin D is not toxic, it's not invasive, and if it doesn't work, you at least won't have anatomical damage and a big surgical bill. Susan
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