Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / February 2008
New Medical Device and Irrigation Solution Exhibits Promising Results in the Removal of Bacterial Colonization in Chronic Sinus and Ear Infections
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Sergei91 - 07 Feb 2008 20:37 GMT New Medical Device and Irrigation Solution Exhibits Promising Results in the Removal of Bacterial Colonization in Chronic Sinus and Ear Infections
Study of New Technique Presented at Spring Meeting of the American Rhinologic Society
MINNEAPOLIS - April 30, 2007 - Results of a laboratory study presented on Thursday, April 26 at the spring meeting of the American Rhinologic Society (ARS) suggest that pressurized irrigation of the sinuses in conjunction with a specially designed irrigation solution may offer new options to reduce bacteria associated with chronic rhinosinusitis (CRS).
The study, presented by Martin Desrosiers, M.D., associate clinical professor in the Department of Otolaryngology and Allergy at Montreal General Hospital, McGill University in Montreal, Canada, showed a large reduction of very robust and highly adherent bacterial colonies in a laboratory model. Two strains of bacteria, pseudomonas aeruginosa and staphylococcus aureus, were clinically isolated from CRS patients who had poor outcomes following functional endoscopic sinus surgery (FESS). Authors of the study also received the ARS Basic Science Research Award, which was presented to them at the ARS conference.
The bacterial strains were grown into robust bacterial colonies and treated with a variety of commonly used therapies including antibiotics and hypertonic saline. These existing therapies were compared to static and pressurized application of a new irrigation solution under development at Medtronic. Of the S aureus and pseudomonas bacterial colonies grown in this model, respectively 99.98% and 99.999% of the bacteria were removed by the pressurized application.
Traditional Treatment, Emerging Theories and Product Development Established theory among Ear, Nose, and Throat (ENT) surgeons is that CRS and chronic otitis media with effusion (COME) are inflammatory disorders. Traditional treatments include surgery to ventilate affected areas in an attempt to reduce or eliminate inflammation. However, recent research suggests that CRS and COME are actually chronic infections1, and that the chronic inflammation which accompanies them is a byproduct of the diseases rather than the underlying cause. Specifically, certain strains of bacteria are highly resistant to host defenses and antibiotic treatment, and, as the bacterial colonies persist, they produce toxins that cause chronic inflammation. Based on this mechanism, Medtronic began developing new treatment options for the disruption and removal of bacterial colonies.
Mechanical disruption is one of the best mechanisms for removal of bacterial colonies, and the effect is often enhanced with a detergent. A common example would be brushing one's teeth. Cavities in the teeth are caused by bacterial colonies in the mouth. Thoroughly brushing the teeth with toothpaste serves to remove the bacterial colonies and prevent decay.
Special irrigation devices for ENT under development by Medtronic adopt a similar approach for the treatment of CRS and COME. Patent applications have been filed on a system that irrigates the nose with pressure, analogous to that used in the dentist's office or in the treatment of chronic orthopedic wounds. To assist in the treatment, Medtronic scientists developed and evaluated a large variety of irrigating solutions. A citric acid zwitterionic surfactant provided the best results during internal testing. A patent application has been filed on the surfactant also.
Study Results Suggest Improved Efficacy in Bacterial Removal Researchers at McGill University in Montreal, Montana State and Medtronic collaborated to test the effectiveness of pressurized irrigation with the citric acid zwitterionic surfactant irrigating solution.
Bacteria isolated from failed surgical patients at McGill were sent to Montana State, grown into robust bacterial colonies, and treated with a number of static and dynamic irrigation solutions. Commonly used controls were compared to static and pressurized applications of the Medtronic surfactant. Control groups included many of the currently used irrigation solutions, including antibiotics (tobramycin and doxycycline), and salt water (isotonic and hypertonic saline).
When applied statically, none of the controls had any material effect on the bacterial colony. Conversely, dynamic application of saline reduced the number of bacteria 99.4% in both types of bacterial colonies. Static application of the surfactant reduced the number of bacteria in the colonies of S aureus and pseudomonas 99.66% and 99.87% respectively. The best results were achieved when surfactant was applied under pressure, where 99.98% and 99.999% of S aureus and pseudomonas were removed equaling a four- (10,000x) and five- (100,000x) log reduction, respectively.
Looking Forward Given the positive results of the laboratory study, Medtronic is initiating a number of studies to further evaluate this technology. Several living tissue and safety studies are scheduled to start in the near future with subsequent submission for review by the FDA
Sergei91 - 07 Feb 2008 20:41 GMT So my question now becomes where do you get or find a citric acid zwitterionic surfactant? I already have a pustile irrigation machine, and biofilm, now i need the stuff they are talking about
Sergei91
truehawk - 08 Feb 2008 00:28 GMT > So my question now becomes where do you get or find a citric acid > zwitterionic surfactant? I already have a pustile irrigation machine, > and biofilm, now i need the stuff they are talking about > > Sergei91 Like CHAPS lab detergent? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAPS_detergent
Michael - 08 Feb 2008 04:11 GMT > > So my question now becomes where do you get or find a citric acid > > zwitterionic surfactant? I already have a pustile irrigation machine, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Like CHAPS lab detergent?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAPS_detergent where do you get or find a citric acid zwitterionic surfactant?
Cocamidopropyl betaine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocamidopropyl_betaine ) is a zwitterionic surficant; according to the label on the bottle I purchased it's the second largest ingredient in J&J's Baby Shampoo after water. The next to last ingredient note on the on the label is "may also contain citric acid"
I recall someone posting about its use recently, apologies can not recall who.
Michael
Sergei91 - 08 Feb 2008 04:42 GMT > > > So my question now becomes where do you get or find a citric acid > > > zwitterionic surfactant? I already have a pustile irrigation machine, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Michael Steven to answer you post; I did call Medtronic today with that in mind, and got nowhere. They kind of new nothing about their own trial. They are going to have a local rep get in touch with me to see if they know more. I'm not holding my breath. As for the rest, the baby shampoo seems to be the way things are going, I've heard of a few ENT's recommending that, as Dr. Grossan did above, at least for the "easy" over the counter way. I've started that (the jury is still out on success or failure, it's too soon to tell) and will continue to do so until I hear of a better way. I assume whatever Medtronic is working on will be a much more direct, and stronger mechanism. Sergei91
Murray Grossan - 09 Feb 2008 03:39 GMT On 2/7/08 8:42 PM, in article 397826a1-0998-4bbd-b845-1fe21e2834fb@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com,
> it's too soon to > tell) and will continue to do so until I hear of a better way. I > assume whatever Medtronic is working on will be a much more direct, > and stronger mechanism. Right, instead of using pulsatile irrigation as it is now, since it is effective, they will have adaptors so the pulsatile irrigation can be directed at the biofilm with catheters during surgery.
Michael - 08 Feb 2008 05:33 GMT > > > So my question now becomes where do you get or find a citric acid > > > zwitterionic surfactant? I already have a pustile irrigation machine, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Michael Dr. Grossan, apologies for the overlapping post -- I must have been ingredient reading / searching / typing when you were posting.
Apart from water, almost all the ingredients of the shampoo are surfactants of various kinds.
I have just added the recommended amount to a 'black tea wash' (previously was only using literally a couple of drops of the shampoo) this is additionally effective in getting the thick pads / films of mucous to start sliding out.
I wonder if, instead of citric acid plus surfacant, Desrosiers has developed a propriatory zwitterionic surfactant based on the citric acid molecule?
Michael
Murray Grossan - 09 Feb 2008 03:45 GMT On 2/7/08 9:33 PM, in article 746a3149-9a96-4cbc-be6b-9c4ea68f1c45@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, "Michael" <mfrpersonal@gmail.com> wrote:
> Desrosiers has > developed a propriatory zwitterionic surfactant based on the citric > acid molecule? They are exploring various compounds but the problem is that it still takes the pulsatile action to be effective for biofilm removal.
Susan - 09 Feb 2008 03:51 GMT > On 2/7/08 9:33 PM, in article > 746a3149-9a96-4cbc-be6b-9c4ea68f1c45@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, "Michael" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > They are exploring various compounds but the problem is that it still takes > the pulsatile action to be effective for biofilm removal. You keep saying it, and we keep asking; WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? You have never provided a single citation demonstrating that compared to any other form of irrigation, your pulsatile device is more effective.
I'm getting much better results using a large sized NeilMed bottle, and threw away my irrigator because it's unhygienic and nearly impossible to keep clean and sterile.
Susan
Michael - 09 Feb 2008 08:47 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Susan Dr Grossan:
Your post was:
"If you add one teaspoonful of Johnson's Baby Shampoo to the 500 ccc of Saline in the Hydro Pulse that gives you a one % surfactin solution which is what we are using now for biofilm. gives you a one % surfactin solution which is what we are using now for biofilm. "
Surfactin isn't an ingredient in the J&J shampoo, but is a very potent antimicrobial etc. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactin : Antimicrobial potential of a lipopeptide biosurfactant derived from a marine Bacillus circulans. J Appl Microbiol. 2008 Jan 9 PMID: 18194244 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18194244?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEn trez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum) and numerous other publications. )
Was this just a typo, or have you actually tried it; or might you be concerned about Surfactin's effect on the permeable sinus membrane, and other underlying tissues, even in relatively low concentrations?
As I am certain you know, there are various other ilpopeptide biosurficants known that may or would act against bacterial biofilms; are you aware of anyone trying these in an experimental setting against films grown from sinus bacteria or other human cultures - presumably in vitro rather than in vivo - because their complex mechanism probably would be sufficient to evade the easy formation of bacterial resistance ?
Sergei: There is a "Citric Acid/Surfactant Reagent" available from Hach but its for water systems and very probably completely unsuitable/unsafe for lavage use:- http://www.hach.com/hc/search.product.details.invoker/PackagingCode=2347003/NewL inkLabel=Citric+Acid&frasl%3BSurfactant+Reagent+(2.9+L)
Michael
Murray Grossan - 09 Feb 2008 18:18 GMT On 2/9/08 12:47 AM, in article 12889792-4988-4473-bd29-3db1d7477c62@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com, "Michael" <mfrpersonal@gmail.com> wrote:
>> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Michael Michael the surfactant didn't originate with me, it is the research from U of Penn ENT. They have been using it for some time now, as have I and the results seem to warrant its use in difficult cases.
Captain_Nemo@example.com - 17 Feb 2008 18:50 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Susan Susan -
I don't get your hang up over the tubing. Unless the critters can swim upstream (no) all you have to keep clean is the tank and the tip. The water flow is always one way the same way.
I put the tank in the dishwasher, and the tip in vinegar. I've being using these things for seven years and I've never given myself back a sinus infection.
And I will categorically say and defend that this irrigation is the best device I've found for getting allergens out of my nose. And that alone makes me a repeat user. Other benefits, even illusory, are bonus.
Unfortunately, it's not been the same single appliance for seven years, but that's a different complaint.
...best, Capt N.
 Signature Email to Captain_Nemo@C0X.NYET (yes, you can so figure it out) ;-]
Scream and shout and jump for joy! I was here before Kilroy!
Sorry to spoil your little joke. I was here but my computer broke. ---Kilroy
Susan - 17 Feb 2008 19:31 GMT > Susan - > > I don't get your hang up over the tubing. Unless the critters can swim > upstream (no) all you have to keep clean is the tank and the tip. The > water flow is always one way the same way. I think you're skipping the part about the moisture trapped inside the tubing, as much a breeding ground for biofilms and pathogens as any other dark, moist place.
> I put the tank in the dishwasher, and the tip in vinegar. I've being > using these things for seven years and I've never given myself back a > sinus infection. How do you know? I'm serious, how do you know you're not reintroducing something infectious or inflammatory?
> And I will categorically say and defend that this irrigation is the best > device I've found for getting allergens out of my nose. And that alone > makes me a repeat user. Other benefits, even illusory, are bonus. I'm not going to argue that it's useless or that you shouldn't use it. I've chosen to do otherwise.
If you continue to use it, PLEASE consider storing it filled, with vinegar and/or peroxide in the tubing to prevent microbes from colonizing the tubing. That's what I did before I threw mine away.
> Unfortunately, it's not been the same single appliance for seven years, > but that's a different complaint. Yes, its shoddiness and cheap construction is another issue, one that isn't dealt with in a satisfactory manner by the company.
Susan
judy.n - 18 Feb 2008 12:26 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Susan The first I ever heard of biofilms was a dental article about a decade ago that my husband shared with me: dental equipment requires lines that provide water as well as compressed air. All the water lines get extensive biofilms. They fight them with bleach. It's well documented. Water loving bugs: especially pseudomonas, will thrive in dark wet tubes and the tubes don't completely dry. When we use asthma nebulizers, we have the patients run compressed air through the tube to dry it: they're clear, and they should be disposed of every few months. That's how any irrigation device with tubing should work. I agree with Susan: acidify and bleach the tubing, and try and dry it if possible. Judy
Captain_Nemo@example.com - 18 Feb 2008 23:52 GMT Susan -
> I think you're skipping the part about the moisture trapped inside the > tubing, as much a breeding ground for biofilms and pathogens as any > other dark, moist place. Nope. Not skipping that part. The point is that the tubing is flushed by the pump with every use. Same principal as your commode. While you and I have particulars about what we do with toilet bowl water, dogs have no such sensibilities, and they do OK.
> How do you know? I'm serious, how do you know you're not reintroducing > something infectious or inflammatory? I know because my sinusitis is allergy based. I'm allergic to spring, summer, and fall pollens, dust, and bed mites. When coupled with my too tiny eustachian tubes, I can get sinusitis or ear infections practically by thinking about staying in a hotel and flying home. I won't equalize on the way down, and I'll just push the gunk up there unless I premedicate with Afrin. I've never given myself an infection from the tip. If I had, I'd never have gotten over them, and I always do. Until the next allergy flareup that is. Zyrtec is my friend.
> If you continue to use it, PLEASE consider storing it filled, with > vinegar and/or peroxide in the tubing to prevent microbes from > colonizing the tubing. That's what I did before I threw mine away. Every Friday morning (I'm an anal type) after I use it, I put 200cc of vinegar in it, stick the tip in the tank, and recirculate for several minutes. I then leave that until Saturday morning, pump it out, fill it with water, and pump it out again. Then it's ready for use for the week. Knock on wood, but this one is lasting into 18 months. It does what I want it to do, which is flush out the allergens.
> Yes, its shoddiness and cheap construction is another issue, one that > isn't dealt with in a satisfactory manner by the company. Agreed.
...best, Capt N.
 Signature Email to Captain_Nemo@C0X.NYET (yes, you can so figure it out) ;-]
Scream and shout and jump for joy! I was here before Kilroy!
Sorry to spoil your little joke. I was here but my computer broke. ---Kilroy
Murray Grossan - 08 Feb 2008 04:05 GMT On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69014@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com,
> So my question now becomes where do you get or find a citric acid > zwitterionic surfactant? I already have a pustile irrigation machine, > and biofilm, now i need the stuff they are talking about > > Sergei91 If you add one teaspoonful of Johnson's Baby Shampoo to the 500 ccc of Saline in the Hydro Pulse that gives you a one % surfactin solution which is what we are using now for biofilm. You could add some lemon juice but we are doing the Baby Shampoo with nice results.
Bookish - 10 Feb 2008 04:28 GMT > On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article > 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You could add some lemon juice but we are doing the Baby Shampoo with nice > results. I recently read about phthalates. Are these in all baby shampoo and if so, would you still irrigate with it?
Michael - 10 Feb 2008 06:28 GMT > > On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article > > 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I recently read about phthalates. Are these in all baby shampoo and if > so, would you still irrigate with it? Bookish:
There are no phthalates on the ingredient list of J&J shampoo. As a group they have very low water solubility and are mainly used as plasticizers.
Michael
judy.n - 10 Feb 2008 14:18 GMT > > > On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article > > > 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Michael So, Murray Grossan is using baby shampoo in "difficult cases": I wonder what the criteria is for difficult, and what the risks/benefits are of surfactant as baby shampoo. Data would be helpful. Judy
Michael - 11 Feb 2008 10:14 GMT > > > > On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article > > > > 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > are of surfactant as baby shampoo. Data would be helpful. > Judy "You could add some lemon juice but we are doing the Baby Shampoo with nice results."
I think I now understand (often dangerous) why the citric acid is significant -- its a calcium ion sequestering agent. ( http://www.entoday.com/pt/re/entoday/fulltext.01265117-200706000-00004.htm;jsess ionid=HwVV4vvp6fCVmkFpBVHJWQGcxTj1t3GCNHGNjy5n8QpqcKk4TJMp!-809317659!181195629! 8091!-1 ) Sergei, that is why Hach are using citric acid in water systems.
Tetracycline antibiotics, in addition to their antibiotic role, also have that ability, as should any decent surfactant used with water. [Has anybody tried adding a minute quantity of Borax to their saline lavage - it has a slow elimination via the kidneys and so in any quantity can be cumulatively toxic ?]
EDTA (ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid) or its sodium salt also, -- I know its got a bad name having been proposed as an agent in some very questionable 'chelation therapy' & for removal of the fatty lining of the arteries -- but it has been described as 'safe' by the FDA as a food additive (and though ingestion in quantity ingestion at high concentrations by mammals changes excretion of metals and can affect cell membrane permeability) EDTA might be useful for sinus lavage. (see below)
But, as I began, there is always a danger in thinking one understands ...
Michael
Chelator-induced dispersal and killing of Pseudomonas aeruginosa cells in a biofilm. Banin E, Brady KM, Greenberg EP.
Box 357242, Department of Microbiology, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle, WA 98195-7242, USA.
Biofilms consist of groups of bacteria attached to surfaces and encased in a hydrated polymeric matrix. Bacteria in biofilms are more resistant to the immune system and to antibiotics than their free- living planktonic counterparts. Thus, biofilm-related infections are persistent and often show recurrent symptoms. The metal chelator EDTA is known to have activity against biofilms of gram-positive bacteria such as Staphylococcus aureus. EDTA can also kill planktonic cells of Proteobacteria like Pseudomonas aeruginosa. In this study we demonstrate that EDTA is a potent P. aeruginosa biofilm disrupter. In Tris buffer, EDTA treatment of P. aeruginosa biofilms results in 1,000- fold greater killing than treatment with the P. aeruginosa antibiotic gentamicin. Furthermore, a combination of EDTA and gentamicin results in complete killing of biofilm cells. P. aeruginosa biofilms can form structured mushroom-like entities when grown under flow on a glass surface. Time lapse confocal scanning laser microscopy shows that EDTA causes a dispersal of P. aeruginosa cells from biofilms and killing of biofilm cells within the mushroom-like structures. An examination of the influence of several divalent cations on the antibiofilm activity of EDTA indicates that magnesium, calcium, and iron protect P. aeruginosa biofilms against EDTA treatment. Our results are consistent with a mechanism whereby EDTA causes detachment and killing of biofilm cells.
PMID: 16517655 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
truehawk - 11 Feb 2008 23:17 GMT > > > > > On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article > > > > > 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > > PMID: 16517655 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] I tried EDTA before tannins. It kinda works, but is pretty harsh and irritating and, I think, less effective for all that is is more painful.
Michael - 12 Feb 2008 19:31 GMT > > > > > > On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article > > > > > > 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > It kinda works, but is pretty harsh and irritating and, I think, less > effective for all that is is more painful. "You could add some lemon juice but we are doing the Baby Shampoo with nice results."
Yesterday added the juice of 1/2 fresh lemon to the morning and evening wash (tea, drops of vinegar,salt, shampoo).
This stings / irritates a little -- like the first time using Alkalol. Some additional initial film removal, however over hours the film starts detaching quite deep in the sinus; after waking and standing up this am chunks of the thick film sliding out through the sinus openings with the heat of a cup of coffee, disconcerting but very gratifying. The effect is clearly the lemon juice rather than just acid -- adding up to two spoonfuls of vinegar to the tea never had the same impact.
Will continue and search for an easier source of citric acid, I don't know, yet, if the bottles of concentrated lemon juice will work in the same way. I assume so called 'food grade' citric acid crystals, which can be ordered over the 'net, would be sufficiently free of impurities for lavage use.
Michael
truehawk - 12 Feb 2008 23:38 GMT > > > > > > > On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article > > > > > > > 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] > > Michael I use the bottled lemon juice. I have also used cherry Coolaid before when I wanted to color the biofilm so that the doc could see it.
Sergei91 - 13 Feb 2008 22:58 GMT > > > > > > > > On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article > > > > > > > > 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 118 lines] > I have also used cherry Coolaid before when I wanted to color the > biofilm so that the doc could see it. How much lemon juice do you put in say 500cc of water? Thanks, Sergei
judy.n - 14 Feb 2008 01:45 GMT > > > > > > > > > On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article > > > > > > > > > 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] > Thanks, > Sergei Can I just say that you have really educated all of us: and it's been a group effort, but this thread makes so much sense, and offers a lot of promise for actually treating a chronic condition. Judy And, I want the "recipe" for the lemon tea rinse.
Michael - 14 Feb 2008 03:31 GMT > > > > > > > > > > On 2/7/08 12:41 PM, in article > > > > > > > > > > 4d20887a-7b79-49b1-9de9-c9e292a69...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 128 lines] > Judy > And, I want the "recipe" for the lemon tea rinse. The recipe for the Lemon Tea rinse I am using at present is:
4 bags black tea in 500 ml boiling water Juice of half a lemon (? 4-5 teaspoons) [If no lemon juice, add a couple of drops of vinegar, the acid helps the tannins remain in solution while the liquid cools]
When cool squeeze out the bags against the side of the jug, add sufficient salt for a lavage [I have stopped adding baking soda to the salt because it would make the tannins precipitate]; fill bottle and at the end add 1 tsp of J&J baby shampoo to mixture.
There is a dark residue / stain on the lavage bottle after two / three uses. Myself I would not use the mixture in a machine, probably very difficult or impossible to clean out all the tubing. I was the bottles once a day with first white vinegar then bleach, rinsing between and allowing each to stand of 10/15 minutes; the bottles are clean to the eye after this.
Myself on the second day of using the lemon juice had to cut the quantities down in half; there are raw exposed parts of the sinus lining and it stings too much. However the greater quantity of lemon juice appears to be more effective at goop detachment and removal.
For me after near 30 days of just the black tea, the additions are very recent, I am pulling out a thick clear membrane, sometimes a clear gel, other times brown yellow, sometimes brown flecks or strings in, from the inside of the sinus; its not pleasant if it goes to your stomach and I try to cough up and spit out as much as possible. The membrane carries on detaching for some time after; on some days an hour on others up to three -- I have no idea why the difference.
I know Truehawk will have refinements to add based on her experience with pecans. If I recall correctly she says that pecan tannins shrink the mucous.
Hope this of some help,
Michael
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