Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / February 2008
Question about Tannins and biofilms
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Sergei91 - 28 Jan 2008 04:32 GMT Hi all, I'm new here but I figured it was time for me to come of the sinus closet since I have actively have been reading many of the posts here for many years. First let me say this has proven to be a very helpful website. Without going into my whole history (as it probably would be a repeat of most of yours :) I suffer from many of the long term "chronic" problems that have been described by many of you and pretty much I am in the same boat I've had 4 surgeries, multiple antibiotics, multiple steroids pills and sprays, multiple ENTs, immunologists, and various other doc opinions, a trip to Mayo a few years ago, blah blah blah but still getting infections. Better than before (once a month!) now I am about every 2 months between major flare ups but never really 100% better in between. As my "team" of doctors and medical professionals are pretty sure I'm now dealing with a biofilm issue, I've been using nebulized antibiocs and steriods with some success to try to cut down on the systemic effects of all of the long term oral antibicts I've taken. After reading about tannins in the group, I am pretty keen on trying this tea/tannin thing. I was wondering how many tea bags to steep in 500cc of water and for how long? I bought pure black tea at Whole Foods and have a Grossan irrigation machine. (I actually see Dr. Grossan, he is my ENT) i also started the Vit D3 suggestion I read on here as well to see if that helps. Look forward to making progress, Sergei91
Michael - 28 Jan 2008 08:00 GMT Sergei:
I can only tell you what I have started to do which is to put four teabags in 500 cc. boiling water and let the solution cool to 'washing' temperature, about 30/45 mins, then press out any liquid from the bags with a teaspoon on the of the jug before throwing them away . I also add a few drops of vinegar, the acid helps the tannins to remain in solution as the liquid cools. Before using the liquid I add some salt only, adding baking soda would counteract the effect of the acid vinegar. I have tried both black and green tea and instant. Instant is about 50% less effective even if made up to double concentration; black tea produces the most dramatic exit of clog, green seems to work more slowly for me.
I don't use the tea in an irrigation machine but use a NeliMed squeeze bottle; its much easier to clean once a day ( 50% vinegar for 20 min, rinse twice with water, 50% bleach for 20 min., rinse a few times): the tannins do leave a residue that might be quite difficult to remove from the inside of a machine, it's tank and tubings.
One other 'happy hands at home' clogg removing trick that works for me is a 'tomato tea' recipe I picked up off the internet a few years ago -- its very effective at getting the stuff to start moving, better than Mucinex at times, but exactly why I have no real idea; perhaps another group member could help with the chemistry. Finely chop up three or four, or more, cloves of fresh garlic (chopped garlic from a bottle stinks and does not seem to work as well.) Let the chopped garlic sit in the squeezed juice of 1/2 fresh lemon for 5/10 minutes, put a 3/4 of a mug full of tomato juice in a pan add two/three, or more, teaspoons of tabasco (pinch of salt and grind or two of black pepper to taste) add the garlic lemon and heat slowly (8/10 min) to near boiling. The two crucial parts I have found are letting the garlic sit in the lemon juice for a period; and heating the mixture slowly rather than going for the fast boil. This I sip then drink -- I can't imagine washing with it but in context I thought I had better be explicit. I have come to enjoy the taste & it doesn't make me stink of garlic if I use fresh chopped cloves.
Hope this is some help,
Michael
> Hi all, > I'm new here but I figured it was time for me to come of the sinus [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Look forward to making progress, > Sergei91 Sergei91 - 28 Jan 2008 18:38 GMT > Sergei: > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > Look forward to making progress, > > Sergei91 Michael, Thanks for the info. Up to this point I was using 3 teabags steeped for about 20 minutes or so of boiling water and adding Dr Grossan's pre-made mixture (it's easy for me to get since I see him) I didn't add any vinegar because through my other course of treatments which until a week ago was nebulized EDTA, impucerin (sp?),tobrabicyn amphotericin (all nebulized) for any possible funal issues and irrigation with the Breath Right and believe it or not a small amount of baby shampoo in the irrigation to act as a surfactant (recommended by Dr G), I think we MAY have killed off some of the biofilm because I am left with this raw area right in between my eyes that I can feel when I move teh muscles in my forehead, and when I irrigate produces quite a bit of fresh and dried red blood. We decided to back off on anything that can be re-irritating that area and casing it to not heal up, and are assuming that that is the spot that the biofilm goo was previously covering. The tea is not irritating when mixed with the Breath Right but I know the vinegar could be as I've tried it before. Right now when i do irrigate it I get a ton of garbage pouring out which is encouraging but afterwards it clogs up my nose until the next time i irrigate, kind of the way True Hawk mentions in his post, so it's good and bad I guess Incidentally how long do you do the tea bag treatment, days, months, for ever??? Thanks, Sergei
Sergei91 - 28 Jan 2008 21:10 GMT > > Sergei: > [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > Thanks, > Sergei I was also wondering about the plan for the Vitamin D3. Do you just take 10,000 iu's when your sick or all of the time, and if not all of the time what is the daily amount sinus sufferers should be taking? Sergei
truehawk - 29 Jan 2008 06:24 GMT > > Sergei: > [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > Thanks, > Sergei Sergei: The tannins are not a cure, they just help keep the bugs at bay. One center membrane from a large pecan if held in back of the throat, will cause the goo to release it's water pretty much all night, so that one can get some sleep. I am delighted that your current ENTs diagnosed biofilm. That is true progress. I have always wanted to try an anti-e-coli vaccine and something like the anti-amyloid vaccine that was developed for Alzheimer's patiences because the bacteria use amyloid curli to bungee themselves to the cell surfaces. Maybe as they learn the foe is a vast combination of bacterial species, they will take phage therapy more seriously. http://www.phageinternational.com/doc/tbsordie.pdf and we will get access to it in this country. About your raw place. I have found that raw places in my sinuses usually heal up over night, unless something is interfering with it. I would drop the EDTA but still use the antibotics until the spot between your eyes is healed. The EDTA susquesters calcium ions, and so does tannin, but tannin is easier to tolerate in you sinuses. The only person that claims something like a cure is Susan, who says that she no longer has to irrigate and stopped the Vitiman D3 after taking it for three weeks. So I am going to try that too and see what happens.
Michael - 29 Jan 2008 07:57 GMT > > Michael, > > Thanks for the info. Up to this point I was using 3 teabags steeped [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > taking it for three weeks. So I am going to try that too and see what > happens. Sergei:
Ms. Truehawk is the list expert on biofilms. The 'tea' came about when I could not find pecans to follow up on one of her suggestions and used the only easily available source of tannin I had to hand. I have been using the tea 3x per day for about two weeks now and produce quantities of glugg, gell and very sticky gue still. My understanding is that this is a palliative measure to help relieve a symptom and not a 'cure,' at times I am throwing down the generic guaifenesin, showering, applying hot damp cloths etc. and washing out the nostrils all together just to get something moving out. Humidity helps also and I do keep a humidifier on continuously in the winter in the room I work in.
I live in the country and the next time I am near a good grocery store I am going to buy a decent leaf Assam, supposedly the black tea with the highest concentration of tannin, and brew same and strain/ filter the leaves out of the liquid. If this produces an 'order of magnitude' improvement for me I will tell the list.
"a small amount of baby shampoo in the irrigation to act as a surfactant" I would be interested to hear if you find any one better than the other. I have gradually been gathering links and information about various surficants; there have to be other ways of breaking this film apart, zwitterions struck me as an interesting approach, and there is some literature on the use of such on skin for various purposes. However its the old problem that what will kill the bugs & remove the film certainly will remove the linings and possibly the sinuses also. ( When I am 'down' as at present I am not much use in synthesising data and can only really scan and mark texts the cognitive side effects have the greatest impact on my functioning and I easily become numbed out and aimless/timeless, loosing the ability to read or type coherently for periods. So it might be a while before I post anything, that is if I find out anything worth posting)
Truehawk:
Decent pages with citations at:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_monographs
Last year I got very close to saying enough of the nonsense and making the arrangements and booking a flight to Tiblisi. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliava_Institute ) or Warsaw ( http://www.aite.wroclaw.pl/phages/phages.html ) and if these guys get an experimental protocol together very soon, or just want to play with a few dumb fools who put tea with vinegar up their nostrils, I will be there ... http://www.rowland.harvard.edu/organization/past_research/bacteriophage/bacterio phage.html
Michael
Sergei91 - 29 Jan 2008 18:15 GMT > > > Michael, > > > Thanks for the info. Up to this point I was using 3 teabags steeped [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > Michael True Hawk "I am delighted that your current ENTs diagnosed biofilm. That is true progress."
I grew out psudomonas (sp) twice over the last 3 years so in a sense we are sort of assuming it is a biofilm. We also at the same time tried anti fungals, to rule out fungus and I saw no marked progress, so now we are left assuming due to the literally hundreds of oral antibiotics I've taken over the years, that's it is some sort of biofilm. As you know culturing out a complete biofilm is difficult, so we are treating it assuming there may still be traces of the psudomonas, and the impucerin antibiotic was for staph, which I constantly culture out. "About your raw place. "I have found that raw places in my sinuses usually heal up over night, unless something is interfering with it. I would drop the EDTA but still use the antibiotics until the spot between your eyes is healed. The EDTA sequesters calcium ions, and so does tannin, but tannin is easier to tolerate in you sinuses. "
Yes, we dropped the EDTA for now as it is highly irritating, but did seem to show some results. I got large jellyfish globs that came out after using nebulized EDTA with tobi for about 3 months. The spot hasn't healed in about a month. We may go back to using it at some point when the ulcer heals. At this point we stopped everything except irrigation and my supplements. The tea is not irritating at all. I'm just getting alot of gunk coming out and I get very plugged up after I do it. I did figure it wasn't a cure but neither is irrigating really, so what can it hurt? Do you know, or Susan if you read this can you chime in on if you take 10,000 iu's of the Vit D3 for 3 weeks or do you back down on the dosage?
Michael I found some pure black Assam tea last night at a Middle Eastern market in my area. It was much cheaper than whole foods (50 bags for $2.99) It is 100% pure so I hope to get the best results I can from that. As for the baby shampoo. Dr G hear about this at the most recent ENT conference. There had been a few studies going on in 06-07 that specifically used Johnson's brand baby shampoo as a surfactant and because it has EDTA it works against the biofilm that showed some progress. He insisted that Johnson's was the only one to use, nothing else. Again, not a cure, it's supposed to keep thinks from sticking. I can't honestly saw after 3 months that I notice a difference except the profound ability to blow bubbles out of my nose to the amusement of my daughter.
Kofi - 31 Jan 2008 11:47 GMT Just to link this thread to one I posted on cobalt earlier...
Tannins are iron chelators (which probably accounts for some of their antimicrobial properties). Iron chelators can induce HIF-1 expression, tricking cells into thinking conditions are hypoxic (and that you're low on iron and need more red blood cells produced). Triggering this pathway was recently discovered to block leaky gut syndrome. These same gap junction proteins are expressed in the sinuses. It's just an educated guess on my part but tannins might shut down the immune system's exposure to foreign irritants by sealing leaky membranes.
___________ Gastroenterology. 2008 Jan;134(1):156-65. Epub 2007 Oct 10. The hydroxylase inhibitor dimethyloxalylglycine is protective in a murine model of colitis.
Cummins EP, Seeballuck F, Keely SJ, Mangan NE, Callanan JJ, Fallon PG, Taylor CT. UCD Conway Institute, University College Dublin, Belfield, Dublin, Ireland.
BACKGROUND & AIMS: Prolyl and asparaginyl hydroxylases are key oxygen-sensing enzymes that confer hypoxic sensitivity to transcriptional regulatory pathways including the hypoxia inducible factor 1 (HIF-1) and nuclear factor-kappaB (NF-kappaB). Knockout of either HIF-1 or (IKKbeta-dependent) NF-kappaB pathways in intestinal epithelial cells promotes inflammatory disease in murine models of colitis. Both HIF-1 and NF-kappaB pathways are repressed by the action of hydroxylases through the hydroxylation of key regulatory molecules. METHODS: In this study we have investigated the effects of the hydroxylase inhibitor dimethyloxalylglycine (DMOG) on Caco-2 intestinal epithelial cells in vitro and in a dextran sodium sulfate-induced model of murine colitis. RESULTS: DMOG induces both HIF-1 and NF-kappaB activity in cultured intestinal epithelial cells, and is profoundly protective in dextran-sodium sulfate colitis in a manner that is at least in part reflected by the development of an anti-apoptotic phenotype in intestinal epithelial cells, which we propose reduces epithelial barrier dysfunction. CONCLUSIONS: These data show that hydroxylase inhibitors such as DMOG represent a new strategy for the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease.
Publication Types: * Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
PMID: 18166353 [PubMed - in process] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ <http://www.ucd.ie/news/2008/01JAN08/011508_idb.html> Posted: 15 January 2008
Scientists uncover new potential treatment for Inflammatory Bowel Disease
Irish scientists have discovered a new potential therapeutic approach to Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD), a chronic debilitating disease involving inflammation of the intestine which affects more than 15,000 people in Ireland and millions of people worldwide. People suffering from IBD can experience an array of symptoms ranging from mild discomfort to debilitating disease requiring surgical removal of large parts of the intestine. Current therapeutic options in IBD are very limited and surgery is often the only option. In the new discovery published in the scientific journal Gastroenterology, the Irish scientists have demonstrated that they can almost completely reverse the symptoms of IBD in a disease model using a new class of drugs known as hydroxylase inhibitors. ³Under normal conditions our gastro-intestinal tract is lined with cells that block the contents of the gut from leaking into the intestine,² explains Professor Cormac Taylor from the UCD Conway Institute, University College Dublin, one of the principal scientists involved in the discovery. ³However, when a person is suffering from IBD this barrier is broken and the contents of the gut leak out into surrounding areas.² ³When we applied the new drugs, the gut was tricked into thinking that it was being deprived of oxygen and this activated protective pathways which in turn prevented the death of the cells that line the gastrointestinal tract,² continues Professor Taylor. While completing their investigation, the Irish researchers became aware of a similar study taking place at the University of Colorado, Denver. This study appears as an accompanying article in the same issue of Gastroenterology. The US study, while using a different hydroxylase inhibitor, supports the Irish scientist¹s research findings. The Irish and US research groups will now begin a collaborative investigation to bring the discovery to the next stage which involves developing a new therapeutic which can be delivered safely to humans. ³By working in collaboration with Sigmoid Biotechnologies, a Dublin based drug delivery company, we intend to focus on developing methods to safely deliver these drugs to their intended target in the inflamed gut,² says Professor Taylor. ³These findings show that cross-university partnerships adopted by the new generation of Science Foundation Ireland funded Irish scientists will help to drive Ireland¹s future knowledge economy,² says Professor Padraic Fallon, SFI Stokes Professor, TCD School of Medicine, Trinity College Dublin, the other principal research scientist involved in the Irish discovery. ³If Ireland is to compete at the forefront of scientific discoveries and to develop partnerships with the international biotechnology sector, our scientist must work together in synergy,² continues Professor Fallon. The Irish research groups led by Professor Taylor at University College Dublin and Dr Fallon at Trinity College Dublin have recently received independent investigator awards from Science Foundation Ireland totaling over ¤1 million each. UCD, Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland. Tel : 353-1-7167777
Michael - 01 Feb 2008 19:35 GMT > Just to link this thread to one I posted on cobalt earlier... > [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > totaling over ¤1 million each. > UCD, Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland. Tel : 353-1-7167777 Kofi:
Thanks for putting two and two together so clearly -- I get the connection now. I was puzzling to relate your cobalt (B12) post to sinus issues other than that it related also to healing inflamed & permiable membranes.
Michael
Michael - 01 Feb 2008 21:25 GMT > > Just to link this thread to one I posted on cobalt earlier... > [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] > > Michael Kiofi:
You may well be onto something with this. I am really reluctant to say anything that might provide any 'false hope' because too many treatments I have tried have hit the wall at about the three week point.
What I notice, (clearly subjective and could just be a pacebo effect from the emotional gratification of thinking I have at present a useful tool for getting the thick crap moving and out) is that compared to early use of other mucous removers all of which had begun to fail after the three week point (Alkalol, Xylitol etc. ) that though there is still thick green glutenous stuff emerging I feel generally better -- less 'general malaise' and this week (ie after two weeks) reduced 'brain fog' - and am functioning better.
[For me for the first week after starting the tea wash there was actually a slight increase in the malaise after the third day, a little like a low grade flu with very loose stool, this I put down to the quantities of the crud, that did not leave via either the nostrils or be spat out, heading down my throat. My general physical condition started improving on day 6/7.]
Michael
Kofi - 03 Feb 2008 09:35 GMT Zonulin, one of the gap junction proteins, is expressed both in sinus passages and the GI tract and is at work in Celiac disease. Some people with chronic sinus problems also have food allergies which get started in the gut - in fact, pollen allergies also get started in the gut. The pollen washes down the throat into the GI tract. If the gut is leaky, too many immune cells come into contact with them and you start getting a reaction.
Kofi - 03 Feb 2008 09:38 GMT Forgot to mention, tannic acid is also a proteasome inhibitor under certain circumstances. It might be the case that inhibiting the proteasome could keep HIF-1 from getting degraded. I haven't taken the time to definitively check the literature for that connection but it's just occurred to me.
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