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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / February 2008

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Question about Tannins and biofilms

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Sergei91 - 28 Jan 2008 04:32 GMT
Hi all,
I'm new here but I figured it was time for me to come of the sinus
closet since I have actively have been reading many of the posts here
for many years.  First let me say this has proven to be a very helpful
website.
Without going into my whole history (as it probably
would be a repeat of most of yours :) I suffer from many of the long
term "chronic" problems that have been described by many of you and
pretty much I am in the same boat  I've had 4 surgeries, multiple
antibiotics, multiple steroids pills and sprays,
multiple ENTs, immunologists, and various other doc opinions, a trip
to Mayo a few years ago, blah blah blah but still getting infections.
Better than before (once a month!) now I am about every 2 months
between major flare ups but never really 100% better in between.  As
my "team" of doctors and medical professionals are
pretty sure I'm now dealing with a biofilm issue, I've been using
nebulized antibiocs and steriods with some success to try to cut down
on the systemic effects of all of the long term oral antibicts I've
taken.
After reading about tannins in the group, I am pretty keen on trying
this
tea/tannin thing.  I was wondering how many tea bags to steep in 500cc
of
water and for how long?  I bought pure black tea at Whole Foods and
have a Grossan
irrigation machine. (I actually see Dr. Grossan, he is my ENT)  i also
started the Vit D3 suggestion I read on here as well to see if that
helps.
Look forward to making progress,
Sergei91
Michael - 28 Jan 2008 08:00 GMT
Sergei:

I can only tell you what I have started to do which is to put  four
teabags in 500 cc. boiling water and let the solution cool to
'washing' temperature, about 30/45 mins, then press out any liquid
from the bags with a teaspoon on the  of the jug before throwing them
away .  I also add a few drops of vinegar, the acid helps the tannins
to remain in solution as the liquid cools.  Before using the  liquid I
add some salt only, adding baking soda would counteract the effect of
the acid vinegar.  I have tried both black and green tea and instant.
Instant is about 50% less effective even if made up to double
concentration; black tea produces the most dramatic exit of clog,
green seems to work more slowly for me.

I don't use the tea in an irrigation machine but use a NeliMed squeeze
bottle; its much easier to clean once a day ( 50% vinegar for 20 min,
rinse twice with water, 50%  bleach for 20 min., rinse a few times):
the tannins do leave a residue  that might be quite difficult to
remove from the inside of a machine, it's tank and  tubings.

One other 'happy hands at home' clogg removing trick that works for me
is a 'tomato tea' recipe I picked up off the internet a few years ago
-- its very effective at getting the stuff to start moving, better
than Mucinex at times,  but exactly why I have no real idea; perhaps
another group member could help with the chemistry. Finely chop up
three or four, or more,  cloves of fresh garlic (chopped garlic from a
bottle stinks and does not seem to work as well.)  Let the chopped
garlic sit in the squeezed juice of 1/2 fresh lemon for 5/10 minutes,
put a 3/4 of a mug full of tomato juice in a pan add two/three, or
more, teaspoons of tabasco (pinch of salt and grind or two of black
pepper to taste) add the garlic lemon and heat slowly (8/10 min) to
near boiling.  The two crucial parts I have found are letting the
garlic sit in the lemon juice for a period; and heating the mixture
slowly rather than going for the fast boil. This I sip then drink -- I
can't imagine washing with it but in context I thought  I had better
be explicit.  I have come to enjoy the taste & it doesn't make me
stink of garlic if I use fresh chopped cloves.

Hope this is some help,

Michael

> Hi all,
> I'm new here but I figured it was time for me to come of the sinus
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Look forward to making progress,
> Sergei91
Sergei91 - 28 Jan 2008 18:38 GMT
> Sergei:
>
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
> > Look forward to making progress,
> > Sergei91

Michael,
Thanks for the info.  Up to this point I was using 3 teabags steeped
for about 20 minutes or so of boiling water and adding Dr Grossan's
pre-made mixture (it's easy for me to get since I see him)  I didn't
add any vinegar because through my other course of treatments which
until a week ago was nebulized EDTA, impucerin (sp?),tobrabicyn
amphotericin (all nebulized) for any possible funal issues and
irrigation with the Breath Right and believe it or not a small amount
of baby shampoo in the irrigation to act as a surfactant (recommended
by Dr G), I think we MAY have killed off some of the biofilm because I
am left with this raw area right in between my eyes that I can feel
when I move teh muscles in my forehead, and when I irrigate produces
quite a bit of fresh and dried red blood.  We decided to back off on
anything that can be re-irritating that area and casing it to not heal
up, and are assuming that that is the spot that the biofilm goo was
previously covering.
The tea is not irritating when mixed with the Breath Right but I know
the vinegar could be as I've tried it before.
Right now when i do irrigate it I get a ton of garbage pouring out
which is encouraging but afterwards it clogs up my nose until the next
time i irrigate, kind of the way True Hawk mentions in his post, so
it's good and bad I guess
Incidentally how long do you do the tea bag treatment, days, months,
for ever???
Thanks,
Sergei
Sergei91 - 28 Jan 2008 21:10 GMT
> > Sergei:
>
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
> Thanks,
> Sergei

I was also wondering about the plan for the Vitamin D3.  Do you just
take 10,000 iu's when your sick or all of the time, and if not all of
the time what is the daily amount sinus sufferers should be taking?
Sergei
truehawk - 29 Jan 2008 06:24 GMT
> > Sergei:
>
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
> Thanks,
> Sergei

Sergei:
The tannins are not a cure, they just help keep the bugs at bay. One
center membrane from a large pecan if held in back of the throat, will
cause the goo to release it's water pretty much all night, so that one
can get some sleep.
I am delighted that your current ENTs diagnosed biofilm. That is true
progress.
I have always wanted to try an anti-e-coli vaccine and something like
the anti-amyloid vaccine that was developed for Alzheimer's patiences
because the bacteria use amyloid curli to bungee themselves to the
cell surfaces.
Maybe as they learn the foe is a vast combination of bacterial
species, they will take phage therapy more seriously.
http://www.phageinternational.com/doc/tbsordie.pdf
and we will get access to it in this country.
About your raw place.
I have found that raw places in my sinuses usually heal up over night,
unless something is interfering with it. I would drop the EDTA but
still use the antibotics until the spot between your eyes is healed.
The EDTA susquesters calcium ions, and so does tannin, but tannin is
easier to tolerate in you sinuses.
The only person that claims something like a cure is Susan, who says
that she no longer has to irrigate and stopped the Vitiman D3 after
taking it for three weeks. So I  am going to try that too and see what
happens.
Michael - 29 Jan 2008 07:57 GMT
> > Michael,
> > Thanks for the info.  Up to this point I was using 3 teabags steeped
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> taking it for three weeks. So I  am going to try that too and see what
> happens.

Sergei:

Ms. Truehawk is the list expert on biofilms.  The 'tea' came about
when I could not find pecans to  follow up on one of her suggestions
and used the only easily available source of tannin I had to hand.  I
have been using the tea 3x per day for about two weeks now and produce
quantities of glugg,  gell  and very sticky gue still.  My
understanding is that this is a palliative measure to help relieve a
symptom and not a 'cure,' at times  I am throwing down the generic
guaifenesin, showering, applying hot damp cloths etc. and washing out
the nostrils all together just to get something moving out.  Humidity
helps also and I do keep a humidifier on continuously in the winter in
the room I work in.

I live in the country and the next time I am near a good grocery
store I am going to buy a decent leaf Assam, supposedly the black tea
with the highest concentration of tannin, and brew same and strain/
filter the leaves out of the liquid. If this produces an 'order of
magnitude' improvement for me I will tell the list.

"a small amount of baby shampoo in the irrigation to act as a
surfactant"
I would be interested to hear if you find any one better than the
other.  I have gradually been gathering links and information about
various surficants; there have to be other ways of breaking this film
apart, zwitterions struck me as an interesting approach, and there is
some literature on the use of such on skin for various purposes.
However its the old problem that what will kill the bugs & remove the
film certainly will remove the linings and possibly the sinuses also.
( When I am 'down' as at present I am not much use in synthesising
data and can only really scan and mark texts  the cognitive side
effects have the greatest impact on my functioning and I easily become
numbed out and  aimless/timeless,  loosing the ability to read or type
coherently for periods. So it might be a while before I post anything,
that is if I find out anything worth posting)

Truehawk:

Decent pages with citations at:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_monographs

Last year I got very close to saying enough of the nonsense and making
the arrangements and booking a flight to Tiblisi. (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliava_Institute ) or Warsaw (
http://www.aite.wroclaw.pl/phages/phages.html ) and if these guys get
an experimental protocol together very soon, or just want to play with
a few dumb fools who put tea with vinegar up their nostrils, I will be
there ... http://www.rowland.harvard.edu/organization/past_research/bacteriophage/bacterio
phage.html


Michael
Sergei91 - 29 Jan 2008 18:15 GMT
> > > Michael,
> > > Thanks for the info.  Up to this point I was using 3 teabags steeped
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>
> Michael

True Hawk
"I am delighted that your current ENTs diagnosed biofilm. That is true
progress."

I grew out psudomonas (sp) twice over the last 3 years so in a sense
we are sort of assuming it is a biofilm.  We also at the same time
tried anti fungals, to rule out fungus and I saw no marked progress,
so now we are left assuming due to the literally hundreds of oral
antibiotics I've  taken over the years, that's it is some sort of
biofilm.  As you know culturing out a complete biofilm is difficult,
so we are treating it assuming there may still be traces of the
psudomonas, and the impucerin antibiotic was for staph, which I
constantly culture out.
"About your raw place.
"I have found that raw places in my sinuses usually heal up over
night,
unless something is interfering with it. I would drop the EDTA but
still use the antibiotics until the spot between your eyes is healed.
The EDTA sequesters calcium ions, and so does tannin, but tannin is
easier to tolerate in you sinuses. "

Yes, we dropped the EDTA for now as it is highly irritating, but did
seem to show some results.  I got large jellyfish globs that came out
after using nebulized EDTA with tobi for about 3 months.  The spot
hasn't healed in about a month.  We may go back to using it at some
point when the ulcer heals.  At this point we stopped everything
except irrigation and my supplements.  The tea is not irritating at
all.  I'm just getting alot of gunk coming out and I get very plugged
up after I do it. I did figure it wasn't a cure but neither is
irrigating really, so what can it hurt?
Do you know, or Susan if you read this can you chime in on if you take
10,000 iu's of the Vit D3 for 3 weeks or do you back down on the
dosage?

Michael
I found some pure black Assam tea last night at a Middle Eastern
market in my area.  It was much cheaper than whole foods (50 bags for
$2.99)  It is 100% pure so I hope to get the best results I can from
that.  As for the baby shampoo.  Dr G hear about this at the most
recent ENT conference.  There had been a few studies going on in 06-07
that specifically used Johnson's brand baby shampoo as a surfactant
and because it has EDTA it works against the biofilm that showed some
progress.  He insisted that Johnson's was the only one to use, nothing
else.  Again, not a cure, it's supposed to keep thinks from sticking.
I can't honestly saw after 3 months that I notice a difference except
the profound ability to blow bubbles out of my nose to the amusement
of my daughter.
Kofi - 31 Jan 2008 11:47 GMT
Just to link this thread to one I posted on cobalt earlier...

Tannins are iron chelators (which probably accounts for some of their
antimicrobial properties).  Iron chelators can induce HIF-1 expression,
tricking cells into thinking conditions are hypoxic (and that you're low
on iron and need more red blood cells produced).  Triggering this
pathway was recently discovered to block leaky gut syndrome.  These same
gap junction proteins are expressed in the sinuses.  It's just an
educated guess on my part but tannins might shut down the immune
system's exposure to foreign irritants by sealing leaky membranes.

___________
Gastroenterology. 2008 Jan;134(1):156-65. Epub 2007 Oct 10.
 
The hydroxylase inhibitor dimethyloxalylglycine is protective in a
murine model of colitis.

Cummins EP, Seeballuck F, Keely SJ, Mangan NE, Callanan JJ, Fallon PG,
Taylor CT.
UCD Conway Institute, University College Dublin, Belfield, Dublin,
Ireland.

BACKGROUND & AIMS: Prolyl and asparaginyl hydroxylases are key
oxygen-sensing enzymes that confer hypoxic sensitivity to
transcriptional regulatory pathways including the hypoxia inducible
factor 1 (HIF-1) and nuclear factor-kappaB (NF-kappaB). Knockout of
either HIF-1 or (IKKbeta-dependent) NF-kappaB pathways in intestinal
epithelial cells promotes inflammatory disease in murine models of
colitis. Both HIF-1 and NF-kappaB pathways are repressed by the action
of hydroxylases through the hydroxylation of key regulatory molecules.
METHODS: In this study we have investigated the effects of the
hydroxylase inhibitor dimethyloxalylglycine (DMOG) on Caco-2 intestinal
epithelial cells in vitro and in a dextran sodium sulfate-induced model
of murine colitis. RESULTS: DMOG induces both HIF-1 and NF-kappaB
activity in cultured intestinal epithelial cells, and is profoundly
protective in dextran-sodium sulfate colitis in a manner that is at
least in part reflected by the development of an anti-apoptotic
phenotype in intestinal epithelial cells, which we propose reduces
epithelial barrier dysfunction. CONCLUSIONS: These data show that
hydroxylase inhibitors such as DMOG represent a new strategy for the
treatment of inflammatory bowel disease.

Publication Types:
*  Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't

PMID: 18166353 [PubMed - in process]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<http://www.ucd.ie/news/2008/01JAN08/011508_idb.html>
Posted: 15 January 2008

Scientists uncover new potential treatment for Inflammatory Bowel Disease

    Irish scientists have discovered a new potential therapeutic
approach to Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD), a chronic debilitating
disease involving inflammation of the intestine which affects more than
15,000 people in Ireland and millions of people worldwide.
    People suffering from IBD can experience an array of symptoms
ranging from mild discomfort to debilitating disease requiring surgical
removal of large parts of the intestine. Current therapeutic options in
IBD are very limited and surgery is often the only option.
    In the new discovery published in the scientific journal
Gastroenterology, the Irish scientists have demonstrated that they can
almost completely reverse the symptoms of IBD in a disease model using a
new class of drugs known as hydroxylase inhibitors.
    ³Under normal conditions our gastro-intestinal tract is lined with
cells that block the contents of the gut from leaking into the
intestine,² explains Professor Cormac Taylor from the UCD Conway
Institute, University College Dublin, one of the principal scientists
involved in the discovery. ³However, when a person is suffering from IBD
this barrier is broken and the contents of the gut leak out into
surrounding areas.²
    ³When we applied the new drugs, the gut was tricked into thinking
that it was being deprived of oxygen and this activated protective
pathways which in turn prevented the death of the cells that line the
gastrointestinal tract,² continues Professor Taylor.
    While completing their investigation, the Irish researchers became
aware of a similar study taking place at the University of Colorado,
Denver. This study appears as an accompanying article in the same issue
of Gastroenterology. The US study, while using a different hydroxylase
inhibitor, supports the Irish scientist¹s research findings.
    The Irish and US research groups will now begin a collaborative
investigation to bring the discovery to the next stage which involves
developing a new therapeutic which can be delivered safely to humans.
    ³By working in collaboration with Sigmoid Biotechnologies, a Dublin
based drug delivery company, we intend to focus on developing methods to
safely deliver these drugs to their intended target in the inflamed
gut,² says Professor Taylor.
    ³These findings show that cross-university partnerships adopted by
the new generation of Science Foundation Ireland funded Irish scientists
will help to drive Ireland¹s future knowledge economy,² says Professor
Padraic Fallon, SFI Stokes Professor, TCD School of Medicine, Trinity
College Dublin, the other principal research scientist involved in the
Irish discovery.
    ³If Ireland is to compete at the forefront of scientific
discoveries and to develop partnerships with the international
biotechnology sector, our scientist must work together in synergy,²
continues Professor Fallon.
    The Irish research groups led by Professor Taylor at University
College Dublin and Dr Fallon at Trinity College Dublin have recently
received independent investigator awards from Science Foundation Ireland
totaling over ¤1 million each.
    UCD, Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland. Tel : 353-1-7167777
Michael - 01 Feb 2008 19:35 GMT
> Just to link this thread to one I posted on cobalt earlier...
>
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
> totaling over ¤1 million each.
>      UCD, Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland. Tel : 353-1-7167777

Kofi:

Thanks for putting two and two together so clearly -- I get the
connection now.  I was puzzling to relate your cobalt (B12) post to
sinus issues other than that it related also to healing inflamed &
permiable membranes.

Michael
Michael - 01 Feb 2008 21:25 GMT
> > Just to link this thread to one I posted on cobalt earlier...
>
[quoted text clipped - 107 lines]
>
> Michael

Kiofi:

You may well be onto something with this.  I am really reluctant to
say anything that might provide any 'false hope' because too many
treatments I have tried have hit the wall at about the three week
point.

What I notice, (clearly subjective and could just be a pacebo effect
from the emotional gratification  of thinking I have at present a
useful tool for getting the thick crap moving and out) is that
compared to early use of other mucous removers all of which had begun
to fail  after the three week point (Alkalol, Xylitol etc. )   that
though there is still thick green glutenous stuff emerging I feel
generally better -- less 'general malaise' and this week (ie after two
weeks) reduced 'brain fog' - and am functioning better.

[For me for the first week after starting the tea wash there was
actually a slight increase in the malaise after the third day, a
little like a low grade flu with very loose stool, this I put down to
the quantities of the crud, that did not leave via either the nostrils
or be spat out, heading down my throat.  My general physical condition
started improving on day 6/7.]

Michael
Kofi - 03 Feb 2008 09:35 GMT
Zonulin, one of the gap junction proteins, is expressed both in sinus
passages and the GI tract and is at work in Celiac disease.  Some people
with chronic sinus problems also have food allergies which get started
in the gut - in fact, pollen allergies also get started in the gut.  The
pollen washes down the throat into the GI tract.  If the gut is leaky,
too many immune cells come into contact with them and you start getting
a reaction.
Kofi - 03 Feb 2008 09:38 GMT
Forgot to mention, tannic acid is also a proteasome inhibitor under
certain circumstances.  It might be the case that inhibiting the
proteasome could keep HIF-1 from getting degraded.  I haven't taken the
time to definitively check the literature for that connection but it's
just occurred to me.
 
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