Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / January 2008
Ear pain/fluid
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dolysods@yahoo.com - 14 Jan 2008 20:02 GMT I had the awful sinus crud/infection that was going around for the most of December. After a zpak, nasonex (use every day), mucionex d or entex pse, zyrtec( use every day), things got better, had the cough keep tickling for a few weeks. I've been trying to wean myself off of the decongestants (family doc is all about rebound pain) and when i'm off of them for 2-3 days my right ear is killing me. Usually taking a decongestant and tylenol is enough. How long should this take to clear up? I remember growing up I always had fluid in my ear and every time i went to the doc.. sure that i had a infection this time ..he said it was fluid and keep taking the decongestants. I periodically have my chiropractor check the ear and there has never been any puss or anything. Once he said my ear drum seemed to be bulging a bit because of the fluid.
Is there anything i can do? or do i just have to wait it out?
thanks
Tracey
truehawk - 15 Jan 2008 02:55 GMT On Jan 14, 3:02 pm, dolys...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I had the awful sinus crud/infection that was going around for the > most of December. After a zpak, nasonex (use every day), mucionex d [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Tracey Tracey Otitis media is a classic biofilm disease.
Bacterial biofilms in otitis media: evidence and relevance. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18049376?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEn trez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Now, what you can do about it. If you don't mind I can offer a low tech, Granny treatment. Biofilms in general react with tannic acid, which might explain the theraputic value of hot tea and honey, however for pulling the goo off you can not beat the tea made from the center membrane and shells of papershell pecans. Buy a couple of pounds, shell each pecan, extract the tannin-rich membrane between the nutmeats. These can be held in your mouth until they soften and chewed to release the tannins. Reserve the shells to brew a pecan tannin tea, (strain using a wire mesh tea strainer, those fine particals really help) for mouthwash and nasal lavage. Try holding a couple of the center membranes in your mouth whenever you can. Goo will fall out and you can spit it out. When you feel the "pull" you will figure it out. It is likely that you will spit out and see things that you have never seen before, and pulling the biofilm out of the area adjacent to your eustachian tube will take some days. Drainage and goo may be heavy the first 5 or 6 days and gradually subside over 2 or 3 weeks.
You might want to take some advil before starting, not because the Pecan Shell tea damages tissue, but because the area that the goo is pulled off of is often raw to start out. On the good side, if you use it long enough, territory reclaimed seems to stay reclaimed. On the bad side you will need to brush the extra tannin off your teeth. Hope this helps you do something for yourself to get some relief without having to beg for it. I had an ear blow out bloody pus when I sneezed, at the same time I was being told that they could not culture anything. I hated that. That is also when I figured out just how few of the billions of bugs out there have had their culture conditions developed and adequately characterized so that they show up on the medical radar.
Michael - 15 Jan 2008 08:13 GMT > On Jan 14, 3:02 pm, dolys...@yahoo.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > and adequately characterized so that they show up on the medical > radar. Thanks for the practical hint.
Do you dilute the 'pecan tea' for nasal lavage or just use straight. Have you tried using black tea, or is the concentration of tannins insufficient?
My own thick crud has responded well initially to H2O2, Xylitol, Alkalol, extra baking soda in the saline etc. However after about two to three weeks the additive gradually becomes less and less effective and a 'tougher'/stickier film remains; I have assumed this is just the residual bacteria adapting. Presumably there is no universal panacea otherwise the group would be extolling it from the rooftops.
Thanks for any additional suggestions,
Michael
truehawk - 16 Jan 2008 01:27 GMT > > On Jan 14, 3:02 pm, dolys...@yahoo.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Michael Michael: Tell me how you do. I think that you will find the undiluted tea much more tolerable than H2O2. Mostly I just hold the center membranes in my mouth, whenever I can. The bacteria do not seem to adapt to it. Pecans and oak leaves remain pretty slime free. When I started to use it though, I spat for about 4 days straight as layer after layer of crud pulled loose. It is like removing the paint from an old bearue, except the paint will not grow back in you stop stripping half way, and this stuff will. But if you keep sniffing the crud out and spitting it out, you will peal the film off deeper and deeper into your sinuses. Which may start to drain green and smell terrible which is a good sign, It means that I am actually getting the bottom bacteria out. The green is usually stuck to the surface and all that comes down is the clear amyloid goo that is left after the bacteria digests all the iron out of the blood seeping from the wound that it has created. If I stop half way I am not any worse off than I was, I just have to start over again.
Steven L. - 16 Jan 2008 03:25 GMT > I had the awful sinus crud/infection that was going around for the > most of December. After a zpak, nasonex (use every day), mucionex d [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Is there anything i can do? or do i just have to wait it out? Very warm (not hot) compresses applied to the ear will help open the Eustachian tube and ease drainage.
Watch your symptoms carefully. If they appear to worsen, that means the infection is flaring up again and you'll need another type of antibiotic. If not, then it will just take time to clear on its own.
This may sound facetious, but if you were thinking of taking a vacation or a nice long getaway weekend, this is a good time to do it. Fly down to the Bahamas or the Virgin Islands, and relax in the sunshine and warmth. It may be just what your body needs to clear itself of the infection.
 Signature Steven L. Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Steven L. - 16 Jan 2008 03:26 GMT > I had the awful sinus crud/infection that was going around for the > most of December. After a zpak, nasonex (use every day), mucionex d [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Is there anything i can do? or do i just have to wait it out? Very warm (not hot) compresses applied to the ear will help open the Eustachian tube and ease drainage.
Watch your symptoms carefully. If they appear to worsen, that means the infection is flaring up again and you'll need another type of antibiotic. If not, then it will just take time to clear on its own.
This may sound facetious, but if you were thinking of taking a vacation or a nice long getaway weekend, this is a good time to do it. Fly down to the Bahamas or the Virgin Islands, and relax in the sunshine and warmth. It may be just what your body needs to clear itself of the infection.
 Signature Steven L. Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Michael - 19 Jan 2008 08:24 GMT > dolys...@yahoo.com wrote: > > I had the awful sinus crud/infection that was going around for the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Email: sdlit...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net > Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. Truehawk
Very many thanks.
Have tried a black tea mixture (four bags of Liptons in 500 ml. boiling water and left to steep) and add salt to make a hypotonic saline, without the salt its very unpleasant indeed. Am using same 3x per day. The first day was impressive large quantities of glutenous glugg of various colors falling out throughout the day and today , the fourth day, stuff still falls out for about 1 1/2 hour afterwards but clearly I am down to the thicker stuff now - which feels more like tectonic plates shifting. Some of it now is a clear brown gue - the brown is not the tea stain
Was surprised to see dark/black lumps of I assume blood in the center of the large thick goo formations. How did you know they would be clear? [That was what made the original physician insist it had to be allergy, that much was not green] When I took antibiotics originally, when amoxy, bactrim, biaxin and Levaquin used to work, the clear glutin would turn either green or brown and become much thicker, almost granular small golbs, and begin to just detach and fall out after the first day or so with the affected region gradually decreasing in size. But at that stage I could also wash substantial quantities of the stuff out. [The biaxin was not being tried long term low dose but in 10 day courses only]
H2O2 even in very dilute concentrations, 1 teaspoon to 250 ml. saline I find very painful -- the black tea is not at all uncomfortable.
Perhaps a dumb question: where do you find unshelled Pecans now, they were in the supermarket in November and up to Christmas but seem to have disappeared?
Oak Leaves -- these I can obtain in quantity at the appropriate times of year, there are many Oaks on the Farm I happen to live upon -- and I know that Oak galls have been used as a source for the tannic acid for inks for thousands of years, and were used traditionally for hide preparations because they do hydrolyze flesh proteins, but might there be other compounds in an Oak gall or leaf tea that might produce an 'adverse event' if used for sinus lavage?
Might one be able to purchase tannins commercially?
Once again many thanks
Michael
judy.n - 19 Jan 2008 17:43 GMT Michael, Are you irrigating with the tea? I sort of read Elizabeth's post to say she holds the solutions in her mouth. My ENT once tried coffee, because a patient told him it worked: he didn't find it helpful. If the tea works, it's another tool for us. Judy
> > dolys...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > I had the awful sinus crud/infection that was going around for the [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > Michael truehawk - 20 Jan 2008 05:13 GMT > Michael, > Are you irrigating with the tea? I sort of read Elizabeth's post to [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > > > Michael Judy: My friend I have irrigated with it in the past, it was not irritating and was great for goo removal but every thing tried to come out at the same time. I don't irrigate with the tea because my infection is up in the olfactory nitch and if I irrigate and stuff falls out in-mass it blocks the exit to the sinuses and I can't even get enough air through to swallow. People who have a locus of infection somewhere else might not have this problem. But they should be aware that this might happen. If it does happen the remedy is to use the tannin tea and such the obstruction out the back. If I kinda soak it out from the back then I don't get the ice dam effect and I can make room to breath much better rather than worse. Without it so much goo comes accumulates during the night that I strangle awake and can't breath well long enough to get any sleep.
Michael: I think any good source of tannin should work. The Black tea is brilliant. I wonder if instant tea, without sugar would not enable one to mix get a suitable concentration of tannin. I have a stock of pecans, so I have not been aware that I may not be able to find them later. I stick with eatables. If it does not irritate my mouth then I figure that it is safe to try in my sinuses. I have been afraid that commercial tannins might have traces of something like hexavalent chrome of some other toxin.
I notice that a grey squirrels of my acquaintance will shell some nuts, but pecans he eats shell and all. The wisdom of squirrels.
Michael - 20 Jan 2008 09:04 GMT > > Michael, > > Are you irrigating with the tea? I sort of read Elizabeth's post to [quoted text clipped - 118 lines] > nuts, but pecans he eats shell and all. > The wisdom of squirrels. Judy, perhaps I misread Truehawk / Elizabeth 's post but, yes, I am irrigating with the tea. (If i had been told I two years ago someone was contemplating such, let alone myself be doing it, I would have thought them well outside the fringe.) However there does appear to be some evidence in the literature - I have attached below two of the 408 abstracts which turned up when I put 'tannins bacteria' into PubMed, I have not had time to review the lot.
A quick article on the chemistry of tea explained that the tannins rapidly fall out of solution as the water cools but that a small amount of acid makes them soluble at lower temperatures, apparently this is the reason for putting a slice of lemon in tea So, happy hands at home, I have added a small quantity, four or five drops of vinegar to the mixture. This is even more effective against the mucus.
In my enthusiasm, if x is good 10 x is better, I added two teaspoon so vinegar to the next wash. This was unpleasant but highly effective in freeing up clog. However the thick mucous expands before dropping out and I ended up clogging myself up completely for 6/8 hours so I will stick to the smaller quantity of vinegar - my mucous is actually inside the sinus cavities themselves, I am certain you don't need me to describe the effect of rapidly swelling mucous.
One major change for me its that for the past three or four years all has been post nasal drip and nothing has come out of the nostrils, despite their being completely clear - now I have to blow my nose!
As I have said in prior posts any new innovation has stopped working for me after about 3 weeks - but I am going to keep this up and see what happens - I assume with black tea the range of effective compounds is sufficiently broad that the bacteria will not be able to adapt quickly.
One aside; the first time I used the tea there was a grey black stain round near the whole of my white bathroom sink - I had thought it clean but clearly there was a biofilm - It took 20 minutes of work with an abrasive chemical cleanser and plastic 'wool' pad to remove same. If biofilms are that difficult to remove mechanically from a glazed sink goodness knows if we are ever going to get our sinus clear!
Michael
Antibacterial activity of polyphenol components in oolong tea extract against Streptococcus mutans. Sasaki H, Matsumoto M, Tanaka T, Maeda M, Nakai M, Hamada S, Ooshima T.
Department of Pediatric Dentistry, Osaka University Graduate School of Dentistry, Osaka, Japan.
The purpose of the present study was to determine the antibacterial activity of oolong tea extract on oral streptococci, including Streptococcus mutans and Streptococcus sobrinus, and to identify the response to its components. Antibacterial activity was found when the extract was added to S. mutans cells in chemically defined medium but not in complex broth media. Further, pretreatment with bovine serum albumin reduced the antibacterial activity. The extract showed antibacterial activity against all of the oral streptococci examined, with the highest activity against S. mutans MT8148R. This activity was found to originate from a monomeric polyphenol-rich fraction, and it was stronger than that of pure polyphenols. Moreover, some combinations of monomeric polyphenols showed the highest level of antibacterial activity. These results suggest that the antibacterial activity of oolong tea extract is caused by a synergistic effect of monomeric polyphenols, which can easily bind to proteins. Copyright 2004 S. Karger AG, Basel
PMID: 14684970 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Large molecules as anti-adhesive compounds against pathogens. Wittschier N, Lengsfeld C, Vorthems S, Stratmann U, Ernst JF, Verspohl EJ, Hensel A.
University of Münster, Institute for Pharmaceutical Biology and Phytochemistry, Hittorfstrasse 56, D-48149 Münster, Germany.
Anti-adhesive compounds are potential prophylactic tools in alternative treatment regimes against bacterial infection, as bacterial adhesion is commonly mediated by carbohydrate-protein interactions between surface adhesions of microorganisms and the host cell. The use of exogenous polyvalent, high-molecular carbohydrates and tannin-like plant-derived compounds should antagonize the adhesive interaction. A range of carbohydrates and carbohydrate- and proanthocyanidin-enriched plant extracts were screened for potential anti-adhesive effects against Helicobacter pylori, Campylobacter jejuni, Porphyromonas gingivalis and Candida albicans in different in- situ assays on primary tissue. The adhesion of H. pylori on human stomach tissue was effectively blocked by glucuronic acid-enriched polysaccharides from immature okra fruits (Abelmoschus esculentus). These compounds also had strong in-vitro effects against C. jejuni (inhibition up to 80%), but were ineffective in an in-vivo study in infected chicken broilers due to metabolism in the gastrointestinal system. Polysaccharides from Glycyrrhizia glabra, also enriched with glucuronic acid, showed strong anti-adhesive properties against H. pylori and P. gingivalis (inhibition 60-70%). Pelargonium sidoides extract, containing mainly polymeric proanthocyanidins, was effective against H. pylori in a dose-dependent manner. Due to the multifunctional adhesive strategy of C. albicans, no effective compounds were detected against this yeast. Structure-activity relationships are presented and the potential in-vivo use of carbohydrate-based anti-adhesives is discussed.
PMID: 17637170 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Michael - 20 Jan 2008 10:39 GMT > > > Michael, > > > Are you irrigating with the tea? I sort of read Elizabeth's post to [quoted text clipped - 191 lines] > > read more » Truehawk/ Elizabeth:
Take a look at the following:-
: J Antimicrob Chemother. 2001 Oct;48(4):487-91 Antibacterial action of several tannins against Staphylococcus aureus. Akiyama H, Fujii K, Yamasaki O, Oono T, Iwatsuki K. Department of Dermatology, Okayama University Graduate School of Medicine and Dentistry, Shikata-cho 2-5-1, Okayama 700-8558, Japan. akiyamah@cc.okayama-u.ac.jp We examined the antibacterial action of several tannins on plasma coagulation by Staphylococcus aureus and the effect of conventional chemotherapy combined with tannic acid below the MIC. Coagulation was inhibited in plasma containing tannic acid (100 mg/L), gallic acid (5000 mg/L), ellagic acid (5000 mg/L), (-)-epicatechin (1500 mg/L), (-)-epicatechin gallate (500 mg/L) or (-)-epigallocatechin gallate (200 mg/L) after incubation for 24 h. All tannins inhibited coagulation at a concentration below the MIC. The MICs of oxacillin and cefdinir for S. aureus were reduced to < or = 0.06 mg/L in Mueller- Hinton agar plates with tannic acid (100 mg/L) at a concentration below the MIC. The antistaphylococcal activity of tannic acid was reduced in plates with 10% rabbit blood, but not in those with 10% rabbit plasma. Membranous structures formed in a culture medium containing equal proportions of plasma and tryptic soy broth after incubation for 24 h. The colony counts of S. aureus in membranous structures in the medium containing oxacillin (40 mg/L) and tannic acid (100 mg/L) were c. 10-fold lower than those in medium containing oxacillin (40 mg/L) alone (P < 0.01). Tannic acid merits further investigation as a possible adjuvant agent against S. aureus skin infections treated with beta-lactam antibiotics. PMID: 11581226 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
You may find the last two paragraphs of the full article text of particular interest, available at:- http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/48/4/487
truehawk - 21 Jan 2008 05:38 GMT > > > > Michael, > > > > Are you irrigating with the tea? I sort of read Elizabeth's post to [quoted text clipped - 226 lines] > You may find the last two paragraphs of the full article text of > particular interest, available at:-http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/48/4/487 Michael Thanks very much for the reference. It will give comfort to my ENT the next time I see him.
About knowing the goo would be clear: Staph for one, keeps all the iron from blood it snacks on for itself. This is called beta hemolytic. On blood agar staph itself is greenish gold, but surrounding the gold is a halo is a wide clear halo of plasma. I think at least some strains catalyze the remaining plasma albulium to an amyloid ogolimer so it makes the goo at very low metabolic cost, which is why it can afford to make so much of it.
Michael - 21 Jan 2008 21:05 GMT Truehak & Judy;
I will post a progress update in mid February, unless an unexpected problem occurs prior.
At present as Truehawk described clear goo and various forms of green, grey & yellow slime still 'unstripping' and gradually washing and sliding out.
Michael
truehawk - 23 Jan 2008 01:36 GMT > Truehak & Judy; > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Michael Instant tea works.
Michael - 26 Jan 2008 08:42 GMT > > Truehak & Judy; > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Instant tea works. Have now tried, plus salt plus a few drops of vinegar, the following: Black Tea Bags, Green Tea Bags and 'Instant' Black Tea. (All same brand)
Black tea bags appears to be the most immediate in effect; green tea, less immediately detaches but it carries on working with the crud sliding out for much longer. Instant tea made to double concentration works but is half as effective, or less, than either of the above.
[A brief article on instant tea manufacture describes the process as 'freeze drying,' with enough compounds left in the residual leaves for them to be packaged and sold in black tea bags. Ugh, I thought the bags were just tea leaves too powdery to be sold as leaf, what we used to call 'sweepings.' Apparently the other ingredient, at lest the variety of 'instant tea' I purchased, is maltodextrin. I assume allowing the bags to steep for 30/45 minutes just extracts more tannins than are in the instant tea, which is strong but not really bitter]
Michael
truehawk - 27 Jan 2008 21:19 GMT > > > Truehak & Judy; > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Michael Michael: Good investigation on the tea. I have tried spoonfuls of instant tea and find that they tint the goo, and are somewhat effective. Certainly better than nothing. The strongest tea made from bag tea does seem more effective. However, the red dust from the inner lining of the pecan nut does not tint the goo, but it makes it contract and give up most of it's water. A big ball of albuminum-like hydrated amyloid goo becomes a small rope of with fluffy edges, that occupies 1/10th or less of the former space. The dust is there in partials, not in solution, but the effect is not unpleasant the pull until the plaque detaches is intense. The mechanism and stereochemistry would be of great interest.
sdworkin91@yahoo.com - 28 Jan 2008 04:04 GMT > > > > Truehak & Judy; > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > is not unpleasant the pull until the plaque detaches is intense. > The mechanism and stereochemistry would be of great interest. I'm new here but I figured it was time for me to come of the sinus closet since I have actively have read many of the posts here daily for many years. Without going into my whole history (as it probably would be a repeat of most of yours :) I suffer from many of the long term "chronic" problems that have been described on the site and pretty much am in the same boat as many of you regulars I have read on this site. I've had 4 surgeries, multiple antibiotics, steroids, multiple ENTs, immunologists, trip to Mayo, blah blah blah over the last 14 years. As my "team" of doctors and medical professionals are pretty sure I'm dealing a biofilm, I am pretty keen on trying this tea/ tannin thing. I was wondering how many tea bags to steep in 500cc of water. I bought pure black tea at Whole Foods and have a Grossan irrigator. (I actually see Dr. Grossan, he is my ENT) i alos started the Vit D3 suggestion I read on here as well to see if that helps. Look forward to making progress, Sergei91
truehawk - 28 Jan 2008 06:50 GMT On Jan 27, 11:04 pm, sdworki...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > Truehak & Judy; > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > Look forward to making progress, > Sergei91 I rarely irrigate because my infection is wayyyyyyy back. It lies in the no-mans land between my sinuses and my esophagus and if the stuff swells 4 or 5 times prior to coming off, as it is prone to do with most irrigation solutions, it will choke me down. Michael is currently irrigating and reports using 4 bags of tea Lipton to 500ml of water with about 1/8 teaspoon or so salt to make a isotonic soulution He acidifies the solution with 4 drops of vinegar. I think that lemon would also work. I once used 4 bags of Pickwick black tea to a cup of water to make my garrgle, and the tea was as black as coffee with a reddish tint. Since Michael's comment about tea bag tea being tea that has had some of it's soluibles already boiled out, I am thinking of finding a new source of Pickwicks, or getting some loose black tea. But I hold the source of tannin in my mouth so that my airways will not be blocked in the middle of the night, and for that I prefer the center membrane from between pecan nutmeats.
I must caution you to take some Advil or other pain killer before you start, as the sensation of the tannin pulling at the biofilm is can be like having your hair pulled from underneath. The pull can be eye-watering the first couple of times that you use it. Then you feel a snap or twang and eventually the thing falls out.
I would also suggest that that you get Doc G to prescribe 21 days of azythromycian or cylindamyician. I think the tannins will reduce the biofilm load, and give the bacteria fewer places to hide from the antibiotics. I also look farward to trying the D3.
judy.n - 20 Jan 2008 13:42 GMT Michael, I've added vinegar for years, starting when I had a pseudomonas infection. I find I tolerate about a scant tsp per quart of hypertonic saline solution. Interesting about the film on your sink. The dental literature has written for years about biofilms in their tubing: an article my husband showed me years ago is what got me to boil the irrigation water. It's also what makes me use the neti pot-- I'm leary of any dark, wet tubing--no matter how much vinegar/bleach is used. I can throw the neti pot in the dishwasher on high heat... I hope the tannins work for longer than 3 weeks. It's also interestng how it works for Elizabeth, if held orally. Anything that works. Judy
> > > Michael, > > > Are you irrigating with the tea? I sort of read Elizabeth's post to [quoted text clipped - 191 lines] > > read more »
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