> Susan: Please "share experiences". Or is that none of my business?
> You have made no useful contribution to this thread.
>> rpautrey2 wrote:
> > Susan: Please "share experiences". Or is that none of my business?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan: You should read the following post and think about its
implications. PA
PM: Chronic sinusitis is the most common chronic disease in the US,
and probably the world. Most people that have it don't know it. That
doesn't mean they don't have symptoms. They and their doctors have
not
made the connections. Chemical sensitivities, environmental
allergies,
headaches, migraines, nasal congestion, psychiatric symptoms,
cognitive dysfunction, peculiar behavior, strange thoughts/beliefs,
vision problems, occular pressure, facial pressure/pain, subclinical
meningitis/encephalitis, and various other physical, neurological,
psychological, and spiritual symptoms. If my methods are as
effective
as I say they are, which they are, people are going to wonder about
what took place when my various methods totally changed their symptom
picture and cured them. Some people will think it is an act of God,
some will say it is the devil, some will say placebo, some will
wonder, and others will give the credit to my sinus drainage
technology. Paul
On Dec 21, 1:38 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote:
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> "rpautrey2" <rpautr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:14d19701-6291-41f5-b8b2-4b126cfdc990@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> PM: Don't you think that a person with chronic sinus disease would
> believe that something mystical had happened when they were cured with
> my electonic sinus drainage method? You can't feel any electrical
> sensation, but it drains your sinuses. Paul Autrey
> Why mystical? Are you yourself saying there is no earthly reason why the
> device should work?
> All I am saying is such experiences, and especially such second or third
> hand stories are unreliable evidence that a treatment method has intrinsic
> medical activity. There can be many other reasons why people get better or
> seem to get better from even chronic conditions and nothing has been more
> repeatedly demonstrated within medicine.
> PM
> On Dec 21, 1:00 am, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> > "Citizen Jimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:4263db9c-f268-424a-acdd-f015696a6ee4@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > > Your comments are fine as far as they go but they do
> > > not go far enough.
> > > Yours is exactly the attitude of professional physicists
> > > of the 1890's who foolishly thought that they had
> > > discovered all the basic laws of the universe
> > > and that all that remained was to refine them.
> > > Along came a Swiss patent clerk, and a few other
> > > individuals, and the entire world of physics was turned
> > > topsy turvy for at least the next half century.
> > > What is the missing factor from your analysis?
> > > It is the recognition that we are not omniscient
> > > and that we MUST leave room for the possibility
> > > of the unkown.
> > Of course. But we must also allow that we have a pronounced tendency to
> > fool ourselves, especially in medicine.
> > Medicine is the only area of science where so many different forms of
> > "unknown science" are being put forward as the explanation for a single
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > toxins, innumerable deficiency theories, detoxifying through the feet and
> > dozens of other strange ways of getting healthy .
> > They all shelter behind "science doesn't know anything" when the real
> > problem lies in their inability to show that they are not simply allowing
> > themselves to be fooled into thinking they have an active treatment by
> > placebo reactions, observational biases, spontaneous events and basic
> > human
> > suggestibiity.
> > That is not to say that people are not deriving some benefits from the use
> > of these methods as placebo But you are always going to be in for an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> > is
> > to enable us to avoid fooling ourselves.
> > > The metaphysical implications of Homeopathy,
> > > if it is a valid science, are, as the original poster's
> > > intriguing article suggests, profound.
> > No, alternative supporters commonly retreat into mysticism when science is
> > not working out for them. But they have to be able to show the mystical,
> > immaterial world interacting with the material world at some point.
> > Otherwise it is all psychology.
> > > To ignore those implications, and to ignore the possibility
> > > that the conventional views may be only approximations
> > > to the truth is to circumscribe the scope of your thinking
> > > SOLELY on the basis of the known and to therefore
> > > preclude the possibility that valid research will modify
> > > or even overthrough that convention.
> > > Ask any scientist,particularly research scientists and you will
> > > learn that the movement of progress if rarely logical and linear
> > > but almost always consists of unexpected twists and turns.
> > True. But novel hypotheses or theories are always *forced* upon us. They
> > surface because they are the only, or the most likely explanation for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > serve
> > as medicine.
> > PM
neil0502@yahoo.com - 21 Dec 2007 21:28 GMT
> >> rpautrey2 wrote:
> > > Susan: Please "share experiences". Or is that none of my business?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> meningitis/encephalitis, and various other physical, neurological,
> psychological, and spiritual symptoms.
Many of us who participate on this NG understand what sinusitis is all
about. Many of us would also agree that some people have it and don't
realize that they have it.
You don't persuade people that you have the CURE FOR their problem by
identifying that a problem exists (as you seem to be).
So ... that said .... let's move on.....
> If my methods are as
> effective
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> wonder, and others will give the credit to my sinus drainage
> technology. Paul
Where you lose me, and perhaps others, is once you get into the whole
Delusions of Grandeur thing.
Go work with a teaching college to see what kind of randomized,
controlled, clinical test you all can arrange, then report back with
the peer-reviewed results. I think people would be very interested.
But the notion that you "cured yourself --" while perhaps interesting
-- isn't particularly compelling.
The notion that you've "cured yourself" repeatedly seems to be an
oxymoron, no? Like somebody who quits smoking ... every single day.
As I say, and -- hopefully -- you'll view it as constructive
criticism: the merit in your message -- at least for me -- is
hopelessly drowned out in its delivery.
rpautrey2 - 21 Dec 2007 22:37 GMT
I actually discovered this method while taking a microbiology class
and lab. I cultured my sinus drainage. I have tried to get the
interest of orthodox and alternative medicine. The whole idea behind
sinus drainage is logical and it makes perfect sense. All I can do is
try to get enough people to cure themselves and to speak up for these
methods, so that government and medicine will be forced to persue
valid scientific research. This method will have significant impact on
our society and economy, unless it is suppressed. Greed, power, and
control! PA
On Dec 21, 3:28 pm, neil0...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >> rpautrey2 wrote:
> > > > Susan: Please "share experiences". Or is that none of my business?
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> So ... that said .... let's move on.....
Move on to what? Nothing. I haven't come across anything new in the
area of traditional or alternative sinusitis treatment. That was the
primary reason I joined this group. Most of you belong to the group
because you haven't found a solution. I have given you a solution. If
you don't try it you will never know what you missed out on. PA
neil0502@yahoo.com - 21 Dec 2007 23:02 GMT
> I actually discovered this method while taking a microbiology class
> and lab. I cultured my sinus drainage. I have tried to get the
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> because you haven't found a solution. I have given you a solution. If
> you don't try it you will never know what you missed out on. PA
I'll re-make the important points from my previous post ... since you
seem to have snipped them:
Where you lose me, and perhaps others, is once you get into the whole
Delusions of Grandeur thing.
Go work with a teaching college to see what kind of randomized,
controlled, clinical test you all can arrange, then report back with
the peer-reviewed results. I think people would be very interested.
But the notion that you "cured yourself --" while perhaps interesting
-- isn't particularly compelling.
The notion that you've "cured yourself" repeatedly seems to be an
oxymoron, no? Like somebody who quits smoking ... every single day.
As I say, and -- hopefully -- you'll view it as constructive
criticism: the merit in your message -- at least for me -- is
hopelessly drowned out in its delivery.
rpautrey2 - 21 Dec 2007 23:57 GMT
neilO:
I will refrain from returning the insults, but I am curious about why
you are in this group. Sometimes I wonder if people don't want to get
well because the only thing they know is being sick. They wouldn't
know what to do if they were well.
If somebody invented and built a 4000 pound, 200mpg car, would they
need to go to an engineering school and get a PhD so they could teach
people how it is built? Why couldn't they just tell them and show
them? Let others reproduce it. My delusions tell me that you would get
more sinus relief massaging your nasal passages with 2 wet Q-tips than
whatever you are now using.
The way I see it, you and some others in this group exist for the
purpose of destroying hope in people with chronic sinusitis. If the
information I am putting out is over your head, let it go, but don't
dissuade others from trying it. You don't have to use electronics, the
q-tips are very effective. Bayberry snuff. Strong GSE nasal wash. You
don't have to go high-tech, but it does work better.
I'm going to leave you people alone. If you want/need help email me. I
have several other outlets and I have recently begun to make what may
be some promising contacts. I already have more education than I need
so the PhD teaching/clinical testing route is not an option.
Paul
> > > So ... that said .... let's move on.....
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > because you haven't found a solution. I have given you a solution. If
> > you don't try it you will never know what you missed out on. PA
> I'll re-make the important points from my previous post ... since you
> seem to have snipped them:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> criticism: the merit in your message -- at least for me -- is
> hopelessly drowned out in its delivery
Susan - 22 Dec 2007 00:28 GMT
> I'm going to leave you people alone.
Great news!
Susan
rpautrey2 - 22 Dec 2007 00:40 GMT
rpa2
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Susan
neil0502@yahoo.com - 22 Dec 2007 00:40 GMT
> I will refrain from returning the insults,
No insults.
Surprises me not at all, though, that you couldn't take constructive
criticism.
>but I am curious about why
> you are in this group. Sometimes I wonder if people don't want to get
> well because the only thing they know is being sick. They wouldn't
> know what to do if they were well.
Perhaps you could re-read my comments to you.
Or ... perhaps not.
> If somebody invented and built a 4000 pound, 200mpg car, would they
> need to go to an engineering school and get a PhD so they could teach
> people how it is built? Why couldn't they just tell them and show
> them?
Mechanical engineering is much simpler than biology. Many more moving
parts, much more poorly understood. That's why the appearance of
success in one person must be scrutinized before "EUREKA!" is shouted
to the mountaintops.
> Let others reproduce it. My delusions tell me that you would get
> more sinus relief massaging your nasal passages with 2 wet Q-tips than
> whatever you are now using.
>
> The way I see it, you and some others in this group exist for the
> purpose of destroying hope in people with chronic sinusitis.
Uh .... okay.
> If the
> information I am putting out is over your head, let it go, but don't
> dissuade others from trying it.
Where, exactly, did I do this?
> You don't have to use electronics, the
> q-tips are very effective. Bayberry snuff. Strong GSE nasal wash. You
> don't have to go high-tech, but it does work better.
I don't know that the histrionics or the martyrdom are helping your
case, either. I made some reasonable suggestions, and attempted to
make them as constructively as I can.
> I'm going to leave you people alone. If you want/need help email me. I
> have several other outlets and I have recently begun to make what may
> be some promising contacts. I already have more education than I need
> so the PhD teaching/clinical testing route is not an option.
Nice non sequitur.