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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / September 2007

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Nasal Irrigation May Not Be an Effective Method for Relief of Sinusitis

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jjfjksdf - 18 Sep 2007 02:27 GMT
I've tried Nielmed and Grossan.  Neither really helped.  I stopped about
two years ago and I'm not better or worse.  I will say that the Grossan
forced fluid into my ear canal and gave me a massive double ear
infection.  At least with Neilmed you can control the force.

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/533200/
Susan - 18 Sep 2007 02:32 GMT
> I've tried Nielmed and Grossan.  Neither really helped.  I stopped about
> two years ago and I'm not better or worse.  I will say that the Grossan
> forced fluid into my ear canal and gave me a massive double ear
> infection.  At least with Neilmed you can control the force.
>
> http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/533200/

If you'd used the Grossan, you'd know the force is adjustable.

Susan
jjfjksdf - 18 Sep 2007 03:03 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Susan

The force isn't adjustable the flow is.
Susan - 18 Sep 2007 03:42 GMT
> The force isn't adjustable the flow is.

Isn't that kind of hairsplitting in terms of the effect?

The pressure is far less on the lower settings.  The Grossan is pretty
junky, but that's not one of the problems with it.

Susan
jjfjksdf - 18 Sep 2007 03:53 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
>> The force isn't adjustable the flow is.
>
> Isn't that kind of hairsplitting in terms of the effect?

No...  even at a very light flow it can still build the
same pressure as a heavy flow.  It just takes longer.
It's very similar to the difference between voltage
and current.

> The pressure is far less on the lower settings.  

...again the pressure doesn't change.  Only the
flow rate.

> The Grossan is pretty
> junky, but that's not one of the problems with it.

I would much rather it had a pressure regulator on
it.  Then you could set it low and it would never
cause a problem if you were too stuffed up.
august - 18 Sep 2007 05:50 GMT
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
>>> The force isn't adjustable the flow is.

(snip)

> I would much rather it had a pressure regulator on
> it.  Then you could set it low and it would never
> cause a problem if you were too stuffed up.

The pressure regulator is the water pressure control. same thing.  The water
force is certainly adjustable by lowering the flow level unless your nose is
completely plugged shut and you are forcing saline against a totally blocked
sinus - which is never a good idea.    AW
jjfjksdf - 19 Sep 2007 04:10 GMT
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> completely plugged shut and you are forcing saline against a totally blocked
> sinus - which is never a good idea.    AW

It's not the same thing.  If you had a air line with 100psi in it and
placed a balloon (capable of withstanding 5psi) over the end and
then opened a valve, the balloon would burst.  If you only opened
the valve a little (regulated the flow) the balloon would still
burst.  If you installed a pressure regulator and set it at 1psi
and opened the valve either part way or fully open the balloon
would inflate and not burst.  There is a major difference between
regulating flow and pressure.
Susan - 19 Sep 2007 15:29 GMT
> It's not the same thing.  If you had a air line with 100psi in it and
> placed a balloon (capable of withstanding 5psi) over the end and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> would inflate and not burst.  There is a major difference between
> regulating flow and pressure.

It's possible to overthink these things, you know.

I've never been so unaware of pressure on my eustachian tubes that I
couldn't adjust my irrigator to stop it before I gave myself an infection.

Susan
Susan - 18 Sep 2007 15:50 GMT
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> It's very similar to the difference between voltage
> and current.

I find the pressure to be regulated by the knob, and I've always been
able to avoid tube congestion by lowering it when I have a cold or other
congestion.

Susan
judy.n - 18 Sep 2007 16:16 GMT
The Cochrane Review has reviewed nasal saliine, and found it
effective: know that they often have some flawed conclusions, usually
they exclude so many studies as poor quality that they have no
conclusion, but they were pretty clear here. Notice that one study
showed no additional benefit from steroids over saline. I'll read the
long version soon.
Dear Clinician,

Here is the information you requested (sourced from Reuters Health).

Nasal saline irrigations relieve chronic rhinosinusitis

By Will Boggs, MD

Nasal saline irrigation improves symptoms in patients with chronic
rhinosinusitis, according to a report in the July 18th issue of the
Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews.

"Saline irrigations are not just a 'feel good' treatment," Dr. Richard
Harvey, currently at the Medical University of South Carolina,
Charleston, told Reuters Health. "In chronic sino-nasal disease, the
use of topical nasal saline, while not more effective than
prescription medications, improves clinical outcomes and can be
included in the treatment plan."

Dr. Harvey and associates assessed the published evidence for the
clinical effectiveness of topical saline therapy in the management of
the symptoms of chronic rhinosinusitis.

Saline irrigation was better than no treatment for improving symptoms
and disease-specific quality-of-life scores in three studies that
investigated this treatment, the authors report, and saline improved
disease-specific quality-of-life as an addition to oral antihistamine
therapy in one study.

In contrast, saline did not improve disease-specific quality-of-life
scores over a reflexology control or over intra-nasal steroid in two
studies.

In the two studies that compared isotonic with hypertonic saline,
there was no difference in benefit between the two concentrations.

"We currently have several studies focused on the efficacy of
different delivery techniques (there are numerous varieties on the
market - pump sprays, pressurized sprays, squeeze bottles, Neti pots
and nebulizers)," Dr. Harvey said.

"Some of the most frequently asked questions involve the optimal
delivery technique, volume, and frequency for using nasal saline," he
added. "While this is an area of ongoing research, my clinical
judgment and experience from working with world leaders in nose and
sinus care suggests that squeeze bottles ... and pressurized sprays
which can deliver high volumes under positive pressure are probably
the most effective."

Cochrane Database Syst Rev 2007;3. [<http://imageb.epocrates.com/
mailbot/links?EdID=34565843&LinkID=11935>Cochrane review]

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Susan
( TN Artist, trish,tn ) - 28 Sep 2007 06:38 GMT
Judy where would one find the squeeze bottles and Pressurized sprays? I
am using  a Neti Pot and think t helps tremendously -with Pickling salt
( which is what my sinus Dr. suggested
judy.n - 28 Sep 2007 20:10 GMT
Trish,
 I use a neti pot myself, but--when I have a cold, like right now,
I'll use the NeilMed as well, just once a day--the pressure seems to
blow out stubborn stuff, although it can clog your eustachian tubes.
 NeilMed squeeze bottle is available on line, and they should sell it
at Walgreens and most major pharmacies. I find it's only in my local
CVS at times.
 The NeilMed people--based out of Santa Rosa, make a lot of products,
but the regular sized squeeze bottle is what I use. You can google
them: NeilMed, or ask you local pharmacy if they stock it.
 I clean it by putting in white vinegar after use, squeezing it
through the nose piece/straw, and then letting it air dry. The NeilMed
people sell a hanger for the product on line that lets you hang it up
so it dries out thoroughly.
 My usual irrigation is the ceramic neti pot from the Himalayan
Institute.
 With kosher salt, and a little vinegar.
Judy
> Judy where would one find the squeeze bottles and Pressurized sprays? I
> am using  a Neti Pot and think t helps tremendously -with Pickling salt
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> [img]
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 19 Sep 2007 15:06 GMT
>No... even at a very light flow it can still build
> the same pressure as a heavy flow. It just
> takes longer.

You have to apply common sense.  ...If I even suspect my nose may be
plugged, I'll hold the irrigator "very loosely" against the nostril.
This way, if the liquid can't get through at the lower pressure, it
backs up and comes back out through the same nostril.

..In other words: If it travels through the nose cavity with no
problem, then --and only then-- do I hold the bulb "firmly" against my
nostril.  

...What you "never" want to do is force the liquid in.  Usually (by
forcing it in, at any cost), the first place the pressure is felt, is in
the ear. -- Not a good thing.    ....Jon
jjfjksdf - 20 Sep 2007 02:22 GMT
>> No... even at a very light flow it can still build
>> the same pressure as a heavy flow. It just
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> This way, if the liquid can't get through at the lower pressure, it
> backs up and comes back out through the same nostril.

You can call it what you want.  I don't think it's necessarily a
common sense issue.  To me it's very hard to tell if I am forcing
fluid to my ears or not.

> ..In other words: If it travels through the nose cavity with no
> problem, then --and only then-- do I hold the bulb "firmly" against my
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> forcing it in, at any cost), the first place the pressure is felt, is in
> the ear. -- Not a good thing.    ....Jon

...and then it's too late.
Susan - 20 Sep 2007 02:25 GMT
> You can call it what you want.  I don't think it's necessarily a
> common sense issue.  To me it's very hard to tell if I am forcing
> fluid to my ears or not.

Well, that's a unique problem.

>> ..In other words: If it travels through the nose cavity with no
>> problem, then --and only then-- do I hold the bulb "firmly" against my
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ...and then it's too late.

No, not if you start out gently.  There's ample opportunity to sense
resistance before you've made a mess of it.

Maybe you should just stick to a neti pot.

Susan
jjfjksdf - 20 Sep 2007 03:29 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Maybe you should just stick to a neti pot.

That was one of my points if you look back at the original post.
Murray Grossan - 22 Sep 2007 19:29 GMT
You can prevent solution into the ear by
A. Never tilt your head to the side when irrigating. When you tilt to the
side - say to the left, the eustachian tube opening lies lowest and solution
pools there. If you have a patent open tube then the solution will enter.

B Don't swallow or blow while irrigating. This raises the pressure and can
force the solution into the ear.

C. Keep the pressure at 5 PSI. It takes 10 PSI to get fluid into the
eustachian tube, so keep the stream from the Hydro Pulse at almost one inch
high, and similarly whatever method you are using.

D after irrigation do not blow your nose except very very gently.
E When you lean well into the sink, like a low bow, your eustachian opening
is at the highest point and is barely reached by the irrigation solution.

Murray Grossan, M.D.
Ghamph - 20 Sep 2007 02:52 GMT
> I've tried Nielmed and Grossan.  Neither really helped.  I stopped about
> two years ago and I'm not better or worse.  I will say that the Grossan
> forced fluid into my ear canal and gave me a massive double ear
> infection.  At least with Neilmed you can control the force.
>
> http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/533200/

I hear ya.

Sometimes I used the machine and sometimes I used the bulb syringe both
caused a little to get in the ear canal on seldom occasions but never an ear
infection.

The water would disperse in an hour or three later.

I mostly used my sprayers to mist.  They are more convenient for frequent
use but not as thorough.

I haven't needed any treatment of any kind for five days recently.

If your nose is plugged solid you should not machine irrigate unless you
first get down the swelling enough for a little air to get through.

I used about ten drops of otc decongestant 12 hr. spray in a one ounce
sprayer which was enough to partially shrink stuff  to machine irrigate.

If you have a chronic condition there is a cause but it might be difficult
to find.

I had to search through hell and high water before I found my cause (smoking
gun).

I have a minor gum infection on both L/R upper teeth but so minor that I
never dreamed it could cause my nose to get so chronic.

Unseen below the gumline calculus is my smoking gun and my nose is very
happy now along with me.

Jamffer

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