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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / August 2007humidity, mold, & unhappiness
hi all, michigan summer finally came. i'd been holding my own because the weather has been mild, dry, with no huge variations or major multiple storm fronts. now we're into crazy weather & that 80% humidity time & i'm struggling a bit. just want to toss out what i've been doing & see if anyone has any anti-allergen,anti-bacterial, anti-inflammatory suggestions or what not. (or inflammatory comments are welcomed as well). right now i'm irrigating with saline/baking soda 2-3x/day or more if needed. i use a probiotic 1x/day & over the course of a day use a vit c/querectin/bromelain supplement. drinking alot of water & trying to eat well with an emphasis on anti-inflammatory elements. doing allergen control at home & avoidance as much as possible in my daily activities. & i use a gel hot pack for the sinus area as needed. all this has been working ok - i'm not sure how it all helps with whatever inflammation(including sinus) my body is throwing at me for undetermined reasons, but it's been tolerable till recently. i haven't started the ent's course of action of 1st singulair & then pulmicort. finances are horrible right now & i'm trying to get my hands on some samples of singulair for a trial run before investing in it (3 pills cost me $10.00). right now i'm still functional, but congested with thick, white mucus. & getting some eye drainage as well. used to use pseudoephedrine alot, but stopped in the last month or so because it didn't seem to help much. none of the other allergy meds have ever helped. or the steroid sprays. haven't given up the idea of trying shots again, just trying to prioritize issues/finances. i see my new pcp in about 10 days or so... anything i'm obviously missing? i am humming to the moon. ellen > i haven't started the ent's course of action of 1st singulair & then > pulmicort. finances are horrible right now & i'm trying to get my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > didn't seem to help much. none of the other allergy meds have ever > helped. or the steroid sprays. Ellen, I have a factory sealed bottle of 90 Singulair tabs from 2005 that doesn't expire til 2008. Stored in a cool, dry place in my home. It raised my bp and made me feel tense and agitated, no doubt a pituitary/adrenal reaction to it that is common for me with drugs. I'd be happy to mail it to you. I'll email you for your addy. For thick, white mucous, drink a LOT of water and if/when you can get allergy shots, do it. See if you can get a sample of Astelin nasal spray, too. Susan >For thick, white mucous, drink a LOT of water and if/when you can get >allergy shots, do it. See if you can get a sample of Astelin nasal >spray, too. IIRC, the Astelin IS preserved with Benzalkonium Chloride (my hot-button issue), no? I'm soooooo leery of something that's so well known to destroy goblet cells, reduce ciliary function, and generally (bear with me: technical terms ahead) mess up your sinuses. rock:hard place >>For thick, white mucous, drink a LOT of water and if/when you can get >>allergy shots, do it. See if you can get a sample of Astelin nasal >>spray, too. > > IIRC, the Astelin IS preserved with Benzalkonium Chloride (my > hot-button issue), no? It is. I've read the research on it, and it's so inconclusive. Not that I doubt that it causes problems at least some of the time, I just really need my Astelin. > I'm soooooo leery of something that's so well known to destroy goblet > cells, reduce ciliary function, and generally (bear with me: technical > terms ahead) mess up your sinuses. Can you give me some completely rock solid citations for this? I worry about it. But the relief is SO strong and immediate, even aborting sinus migraines after they start. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >about it. But the relief is SO strong and immediate, even aborting >sinus migraines after they start. "Completely rock solid" citations? Nah. Not even close ;-) But ... and I don't meant to be flippant here ... the results from a scholar.google.com search http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22benzalkonium+chloride%22+%28nasal+OR+sinu s%29&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search OR: http://tinyurl.com/3d2j9a Looked rather compelling to me. Here's another home-brewed Neil theory ... concocted from copious research into BKC and dry eye syndrome (AND backed up, at least somewhat, by the science): dilution is a problem. Healthy subjects have adequate tear film to reasonably dilute BKC in the eyes. Therefore, they show LESS ocular surface/tear film damage in experiments. Those LACKING adequate/proper tear film cannot dilute these preservatives adequately and suffer MORE damage. The nasal/sinus thing doesn't seem ALL THAT dissimilar to me. If WE don't have healthy, plump, pink+cute, moist sinuses (I don't), then the BKC is more likely to do damage than it might in testing with healthy control subjects, no? Here's a recent one that popped up, incidentally, that frightens me more than Los Angeles traffic ;-) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=173245 38&dopt=Citation OR: http://tinyurl.com/2vjvb8 What's the takeaway on this? Who knows. I view it as another ugly risk:reward calculation..... HTH, Neil > "Completely rock solid" citations? Nah. Not even close ;-) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Looked rather compelling to me. Very convincing wrt mucosa, anyway. Interesting about the nasal swelling. I guess I'll experiment with tapering off it, using it symptomatically again, rather than routinely. > Here's another home-brewed Neil theory ... concocted from copious > research into BKC and dry eye syndrome (AND backed up, at least [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the BKC is more likely to do damage than it might in testing with > healthy control subjects, no? It seems to be a matter of dilution by fluids to me. I haven't found my sinuses/passages to be dry unless I do something that dries them out. > Here's a recent one that popped up, incidentally, that frightens me > more than Los Angeles traffic ;-) > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=173245 38&dopt=Citation > > OR: http://tinyurl.com/2vjvb8 Wow. Now that one is scary. LA traffic didn't scare me last April; but I'm from Noo Yawk. > What's the takeaway on this? Who knows. I view it as another ugly > risk:reward calculation..... I'm convinced to take it more seriously. Susan On 8/10/07 10:38 AM, in article 5i3m4aF3n5tivU1@mid.individual.net, "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Susan So the government required a study to prove the claim that grape seed extract killed bacteria. A top laboratory tested it and reported that the extract most certainly did kill bacteria and that the claim was valid. Then they removed the preservative -Benzalkonium and tested it without the preservative. Nope, no dead bacteria. It was the BZK in the grape seed extract that had killed the bacteria. > hi all, > > anything i'm obviously missing? i am humming to the moon. Here are a few things (remember, YMMV!!!): Since you already are into supplements, please give N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) a try. A number of studies have shown that NAC is an effective mucolytic, more effective than Robitussin. It's relatively inexpensive, only $11.00 for 180 600mg caps at Puritan's Pride online. (Puritan's Pride has good prices for most supplements.) Before I had my surgery, even NAC didn't help me, but now that my symptoms are a bit less severe, NAC has been a real help. 1200 mg every two hours and within an hour or two, all that thick phlegm just loosens right up and starts to come flying right out of my throat easily. The only side effect is heartburn, which can be minimized by taking NAC with a full glass of water or some food. If you can't relocate to another area, at least do your best to minimize the effects of your current area. Summertime brings smog, and you ought to check the outdoor pollution levels in your neighborhood at www.scorecard.org to see what the situation is where you live and work. As for indoor air pollution, both your home AND your car are suspect. With all that humidity and summer rain, if you drive a car with climate control you probably have mold growing in the car's own A/C, as well as pollen buildup in there, and it's blasting you right in your face every time you drive. So the two things I would suggest checking out are a) Take your car to a mechanic who knows how to clean car climate control systems (probably the dealer). And b) Buy the book "My House is Killing Me!" for useful tips. It's written by a professional home inspector who knows what to look for (he's asthmatic himself). http://www.myhouseiskillingme.com/ Needless to say, your home A/C ducts should be thoroughly steam cleaned too. And if you're feeling poorly, ask your family to help with any chores that require using harsh household chemicals. Don't expose yourself any more than necessary. good luck and take care.  SignatureSteven L. Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. This is a response to Neil's article on preservatives and ciliary function: excellent reference: I like the conclusion--the three preservatives are ciliary friendly, BKC is irreveribly toxic. How do they get away with using it in nasal medications???? Judy > > hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Email: sdlit...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net > Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. >This is a response to Neil's article on preservatives and ciliary >function: excellent reference: I like the conclusion--the three >preservatives are ciliary friendly, BKC is irreveribly toxic. How do >they get away with using it in nasal medications???? Judy, I can't recall whether I posted this here or not, but ... when I sent the links to a few DOZEN (primarily eye) studies to the FDA, this is the response I got. Mostly because of my eye issues, I just haven't followed through on it yet, but I will. I presume that the exact same rationale applies for nasal use. It's more than a bit scary knowing that the science SEEMS to be so far ahead of the regulatory piece. People like Pfizer, incidentally, have all "distributed my information to the appropriate departments within their organization, blah, blah, blah." In sum: until they can no longer use it legally, best bet is that they'll all keep using it. ==== Thank you for writing the Division of Drug Information, in the FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and Research. OTC drug products have to follow the standards of a monograph. Benzalkonium chloride is an acceptable preservative for OTC opthalmic products. Please see the monograph on http://www.fda.gov/cder/otcmonographs/Ophthalmic/opthalmic_19800506.pdf Please see the following website for information on how to petition the FDA to change a regulation http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/voice.html ==== Considering the cost to society for chronic sinusitis, you would think a ciliary toxin would not be allowed in a nasal medication. The FDA is full of conflicts, most of their staff accept drug company funding, and BKC is cheap and works and I"m sure the pressure is on not to make them reformuate with no preservative or a cliary friendly preservative or in the case of the Xlear product--grapeseed extract as preservative and antimicrobial. Emailing the FDA is an exercise in futility, they'd only respond to bad press, IMO. Judy ps--I"m kind of understanding why you don't allow your messages in the archive: August googled Anders Cervin, and I tried it also--and along with his articles, our posts came up!!! > >This is a response to Neil's article on preservatives and ciliary > >function: excellent reference: I like the conclusion--the three [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > the FDA to change a regulationhttp://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/voice.html > ==== > Considering the cost to society for chronic sinusitis, you would think > a ciliary toxin would not be allowed in a nasal medication. The FDA is [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > the FDA to change a regulationhttp://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/voice.html > > ==== After you have tried and tried, to get something done in the public interest, it is time for the courts. Go to the UC San Diego Law School and see what they think about a law suit. > > Considering the cost to society for chronic sinusitis, you would think > > a ciliary toxin would not be allowed in a nasal medication. The FDA is [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > - Show quoted text - In the UK I get Flonase in ampules without BZK and Astelin antihistamine nasal spray without BZK . I used to use Ipratropium Bromide in mini aerosol can without BZK, great for rhinitis, but now only available in bottle sprays with BZK. Talk about going backwards! On 8/10/07 7:24 PM, in article g77qb3lccqtj4lcckkbra52h47bha85t58@4ax.com, >> This is a response to Neil's article on preservatives and ciliary >> function: excellent reference: I like the conclusion--the three [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/voice.html > ==== At least once a week we see a patient whose ONLY problem is the BZK in the OTC saline spray. And their cure is to make the saline themselves - not with sea salt or use my Breathe.ease XL "enhanced" saline spray. There are many other articles re BZK being ciliatoxic. >On 8/10/07 7:24 PM, in article g77qb3lccqtj4lcckkbra52h47bha85t58@4ax.com, > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > >There are many other articles re BZK being ciliatoxic. So ... Doctor Grossan... Benzalkonium Chloride has all but ruined my life. The long-known risks seem to have eluded the vast collective knowledge of all the MD's at the eye clinic where I was a patient (UC San Diego's Shiley Eye), even MONTHS AFTER new anti-glaucoma drugs were being MARKETED AS "Now without Benzalkonium Chloride," AND despite the vast number of on-point and compelling studies. It's my sense that it, similarly has NOT adequately permeated the ENT world, either. I'd like to tackle this. I'd like to approach it on a simultaneously eye AND sinus basis. I can probably find a journalist (I took some courses) willing to look at this issue, ideally creating ENOUGH pressure ON the Pharma companies that they might stop using BZK voluntarily. Are you a member of any professional ENT/sinus specialty associations that might be willing to help with something like a "Position Paper" were I to press forward? I know the world's foremost expert on preservative induced OCULAR toxicity, and feel quite certain that HE and HIS clan would contribute something like this. Would you and yours? I can promise you that ... that would be all I needed to muster the resolve and werewithal to get this ball rolling. Thanks, Neil >At least once a week we see a patient whose ONLY problem is the BZK in the >OTC saline spray. And their cure is to make the saline themselves - not with >sea salt or use my Breathe.ease XL "enhanced" saline spray. > >There are many other articles re BZK being ciliatoxic. So ... Doctor Grossan... Benzalkonium Chloride has all but ruined my life. The long-known risks seem to have eluded the vast collective knowledge of all the MD's at the eye clinic where I was a patient (UC San Diego's Shiley Eye), even MONTHS AFTER new anti-glaucoma drugs were being MARKETED AS "Now without Benzalkonium Chloride," AND despite the vast number of on-point and compelling studies. It's my sense that it, similarly has NOT adequately permeated the ENT world, either. I'd like to tackle this. I'd like to approach it on a simultaneously eye AND sinus basis. I can probably find a journalist (I took some courses) willing to look at this issue, ideally creating ENOUGH pressure ON the Pharma companies that they might stop using BZK voluntarily. Are you a member of any professional ENT/sinus specialty associations that might be willing to help with something like a "Position Paper" were I to press forward? I know the world's foremost expert on preservative induced OCULAR toxicity, and feel quite certain that HE and HIS clan would contribute something like this. Would you and yours? I can promise you that ... that would be all I needed to muster the resolve and werewithal to get this ball rolling. Thanks, Neil On 8/12/07 8:45 PM, in article mtkvb3hi9nske94c174rj5idkfb56q3tpd@4ax.com, >> At least once a week we see a patient whose ONLY problem is the BZK in the >> OTC saline spray. And their cure is to make the saline themselves - not with [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Neil HI Neil, You are perfectly correct. It is crazy that doctors are recommending BZK nasal spray and we see patients whose ONLY problem is the BZK nasal spray. How to publicize? We talk about avoiding BZK and making your own saline in The Sinus Cure (Ballantine 2007) by Deba Bruce and Murray Grossan on pages 47,48,118,119,and 250. Maybe if we can get more readers for the book that would help. It's at most libraries. We talk and exhibit about BZK at the ENT and Pri Med meetings, showing the advantage of using my company's product, Breathe.ease XL without the BZK . Maybe I need to have more exhibits. Wallenberger has a blog on Empty Nose Syndrome. BZK is especially harmful to ENS patients. In the book, Don't You Become an Empty Nose Victim by Christopher Martin (Coldtree Express ) he speaks about BZK and ENS. In the bibliography at www.ent-consult.com there is this reference which has many others listed: Classification of Cilio-Inhibiting Effects of Nasal Drugs. Paul Merkus. Laryngoscpe: 111 April 2001 pp595 - 601 Neil, unfortunately your experience with BZK is not that unusual. Best wishes, I came across this blog as I found my name and the accompanying statement on empty nose syndrome (ENS). If anyone is interested in learning more about empty nose syndrome, then please visit http://www.emptynosesyndrome.net. >On 8/12/07 8:45 PM, in article mtkvb3hi9nske94c174rj5idkfb56q3tpd@4ax.com, > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Best wishes, > > hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Email: sdlit...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net > Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. thanks steven (& susan for the singulair offer), i was not familiar with NAC or puritan's pride as an online source - i will check it out. i'll most likely eventually move out of this area, but for now just doing what i can - thanks for the other tips re: house, cleaning, ac, etc. & i'm still sucking in my irritants/ allergens/pollutants the old fashioned way while driving since the old volvo doesn't have air (but not in LA traffic...). also appreciate the discussion & research on BKC. while i totally understand why people choose to not have their messages archived, i think it's really important to have this information available. thanks to all, ellen
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