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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / August 2007

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Further foolishness

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truehawk - 01 Aug 2007 06:26 GMT
Like a bulgery that did not happen because a big dog was there, it is
hard to prove that antibiotics prevent or do not prevent chronic
sinusitis unless those children are followed for a good number of
years.  But that does not keep them from focusing on the short term
and saying that they are of little benefit without doing that
followup.

God save me from fools that think that lichen can exist exist in the
Arctic, and biofilms can grow in hot springs at 300 F and toxic mine
waste, and in betadyne process equipment, and in jet fuel, and in the
cooling water at Chernoble , but somehow can't grow in human sinuses.
Or more likely they don't know about the other either.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSear
ch=17398218&ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.
Pubmed_RVDocSum

rocketsman@talktalk.net - 01 Aug 2007 10:51 GMT
> Like a bulgery that did not happen because a big dog was there, it is
> hard to prove that antibiotics prevent or do not prevent chronic
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView...

I was being treated by one of the authors of this piece of work. I
became  worse and believe they are seriously barking up the wrong
tree.
judy.n - 01 Aug 2007 12:48 GMT
In my experience, the residents are taught to avoid all antibiotics,
and refuse them to the patients who clearly need them--granted, many
patients show up the first day of a cold and want something--but lots
of studies show that patients usually are quite happy to avoid
antibiotics when not needed or to do delayed prescribing--you give
them a script, and tell them to fill it if things go downhill--most
never fill it, but feel better they don't have to fight the system for
access to get back in.
 So, then the patients who are really ill call the triage nurses, who
would come to me, and I would have to see them and write the script.
 Yes, antibiotics are over-prescribed, and yes in these days of
increasing resistance we need to be careful, but there is such a bias
against antibiotics right now for respiratory infections, that I
really worry.
 In the past, the society of otolaryngology would publish clinical
guidelines for sinusitis, and one of the symptoms that indicated a
need for treatment was severe symptoms. As someone who has deranged
anatomy after lots of surgeries, I've had the experience of getting
very sick, very fast. If I was denied appropriate antibiotics:
personalized to my history and symptoms, I could get quite ill.
 So, I worry about global statements, and the acceptance of them by
residents in training, and staff HMO docs who follow guidelines.
 We shouldn't give out antibiotics when they're not needed, but we
need to carefully assess each patient: no cookbook guideline can apply
to all patients.
 I see this article as another block in building the case against all
antibiotic use for respiratory infections. I'd rather see discussions
about how to use them most wisely.
Judy

On Aug 1, 5:51 am, rockets...@talktalk.net wrote:

> > Like a bulgery that did not happen because a big dog was there, it is
> > hard to prove that antibiotics prevent or do not prevent chronic
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> became  worse and believe they are seriously barking up the wrong
> tree.
Steven L. - 01 Aug 2007 14:38 GMT
>   Yes, antibiotics are over-prescribed, and yes in these days of
> increasing resistance we need to be careful, but there is such a bias
> against antibiotics right now for respiratory infections, that I
> really worry.

It's not a "bias," Judy--it's new guidelines based on new, previously
unavailable, information.  In the U.K., a Government committee set up to
investigate antibiotic resistance has just recommended new *guidelines*
which say antibiotics should not be prescribed for acute sinusitis
except in truly severe situations (see below).

It's not just antibiotic resistance we now know about.  Now we also know
that a majority (maybe as many as 60%) of cases of acute sinusitis in
otherwise healthy patients (no other chronic illnesses) tend to resolve
spontaneously after 2 or 3 weeks anyway.  Many of those are likely
viral, in which case antibiotics would have been useless anyway.

>   In the past, the society of otolaryngology would publish clinical
> guidelines for sinusitis, and one of the symptoms that indicated a
> need for treatment was severe symptoms.

And it still is.  The operative word is "severe"--and that word needs to
be interpreted differently today, given the downside of antibiotics is
much worse than we originally realized.  If a patient is still suffering
for 4 weeks without improvement despite aggressive symptomatic treatment
and steroids, I doubt that any physician would resist prescribing an
antibiotic at that stage.  (If it were viral, it would likely have
cleared after a whole month.)  Ditto if a sinusitis patient already has
chronic respiratory illnesses like asthma or chronic bronchitis--for
them, fighting infections ASAP is critical.

But most cases of acute sinusitis aren't that "severe"--you haven't
suffered more than a few days; you're not spiking a high fever; most
cases don't cause "severe" complications like pneumonia, meningitis or
uncontrollable vomiting.  You just feel like crap, that's all.

But "feeling like crap" is NOT the medical definition of "severe."  :-)

Signature

Steven L.
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

truehawk - 01 Aug 2007 17:00 GMT
> >   Yes, antibiotics are over-prescribed, and yes in these days of
> > increasing resistance we need to be careful, but there is such a bias
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> Email:  sdlit...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
> Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

1. I don't see any call or attempt to devise a test for viral
infection, or attempt to use antivirals to
resolve the patients discomfort earlier, nor ANY recognition that the
viral infection kills cilia and leaves the
epithelium vulnerable to bacterial invasion.

2. The antibiotics most often prescribed, amoxicillian, is ineffective
for biofilm infections.
The ENTs who wrote this artical are totally ignorant that bacteria
normally cope with an envrionment
by forming communities cemented together with amyloid and alginate
which are 100 to 1000 times
more resistant to antibotics than free floating bacteria.

3, The whole "resistance" thing is a case of misplaced emphasis.
Of the millions of tons of antibiotic produced, 95% of it is used
keeping the animals
in our food supply alive despite the HORRIBLE crowded conditions in
which they are kept.
Millions of tons of antibiotic for shrimp, cows, pigs, chickens and
fish, but lets not give
it to the sinus sufferer. When an antibiotic is used in humans, it is
not new to the bugs.  They've met.
But macrolides work in spite of resistance, they just don't kill.

Should the so called professionals, the people who are BY LAW, the
ones who are licensed to treat
the ones who have the public trust,
be allowed to practice from a stance of such profound and fundamental
CLUELESSNESS?
Susan - 01 Aug 2007 17:13 GMT
> 3, The whole "resistance" thing is a case of misplaced emphasis.
> Of the millions of tons of antibiotic produced, 95% of it is used
> keeping the animals
> in our food supply alive despite the HORRIBLE crowded conditions in
> which they are kept.

Actually, that's not exactly right.  The animals in our feedlots are
sickened by the diet they're on and the conditions they live in and
require abx to cope with the infections these cause.  They're also given
abx to fatten them up more.

The number I've come across is that 80% of all antibiotics in the U.S.
are used in agriculture, but it might surprise you to learn how much of
that is sprayed onto produce, not dumped into feedlot animals.  :-/

> Millions of tons of antibiotic for shrimp, cows, pigs, chickens and
> fish, but lets not give
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>  be allowed to practice from a stance of such profound and fundamental
> CLUELESSNESS?

Take antibiotics out of our feedlots first, not away from sick people
who need them.  I'm not in favor of rx'ing them inappropriately and
willy nilly, but start with the greatest impact and travesty,
agricultural abuses.

Susan
Neil Brooks - 01 Aug 2007 17:41 GMT
>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
>Susan

Tonight, I'm going to pulverize and snort an unwashed dinner salad.

Results tomorrow.
Susan - 01 Aug 2007 19:07 GMT
> Tonight, I'm going to pulverize and snort an unwashed dinner salad.
>
> Results tomorrow.

If streptomycin is good for what ails ya...

Susan
truehawk - 01 Aug 2007 22:57 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Susan

Speaking of snorting, since I was reminded of it, I have been snorting
the xyitol, because if I put it in irrigation solution the biofilm
just sloughs off it's top layer
and remains pretty much unaffected.
So gotta take advantage of the buggy home's stickness to catch it and
allow diffusion to drive it
down the concentration gradient.
And it, along with the Pepcid is WORKING.
Green goo the first morning, instead of drowning in clear mucus.
Then  5 dime size rubbery patches have come out so far. 4 green, and a
little larger white one with 3 red dots.
And this is though  I have a clear CT scan and have not been completly
stopped up in a year,  but I have still been weeping mucus and
had the nausea.
Susan - 01 Aug 2007 23:40 GMT
> Speaking of snorting, since I was reminded of it, I have been snorting
> the xyitol, because if I put it in irrigation solution the biofilm
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> stopped up in a year,  but I have still been weeping mucus and
> had the nausea.

I, too, had very significant increase in stuff that came out after I
sprayed with a very concentrated xylitol solution. I've increased what I
add to my irrigation solution lately (it's a sweetener, no it's a sinus
cure, no it's a sweetener...) and thicker stuff comes out.

I just wonder if the xylitol is causing some irritation that produces
more mucous, though, not just loosening stuff?

Susan
truehawk - 02 Aug 2007 01:13 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Susan

When I snort xylitol there is a distinct difference between the drip
from one nostril and the gooey ooze from the other.
Put some in your mouth and what happens?
You produce siliva to dilute the sugar until some kind of equilibrium
is reached.
The natural product of goblet cells is the the same consistency as
tears and saliva.
The xylitol causes the goblet cells that you do have to furnish more
fluid to the area
and the bugs mistaken attachment causes some of the surface of their
biofilm to slough off from where that is located.
The thick ooze is them being washed out, when you get to the bottom it
will come off in a rubbery hunk like a piece of lichen..
The mother is white or green and trails a long vail of clear mucus.
Susan - 02 Aug 2007 02:13 GMT
> The thick ooze is them being washed out, when you get to the bottom it
> will come off in a rubbery hunk like a piece of lichen..
> The mother is white or green and trails a long vail of clear mucus.

Elizabeth, I mean this in the nicest way, but sometimes your posts
literally make me retch.  :-)

Susan
truehawk - 02 Aug 2007 05:40 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Susan

And in the nicest way we are taught to be prisoners of our own
squeamishness.

BTW remember cutting an onion or going out in sub-zero weather and
having your nose run clear fluid like tears?
That is the the natural viscosity of nasal mucus.
truehawk - 02 Aug 2007 06:37 GMT
> > x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> having your nose run clear fluid like tears?
> That is the the natural viscosity of nasal mucus.

When I proved that the bugs and fungi were there, then I was told that
they are benign colonizers!.  Now I do not think creating a ulcer and
building a mat that obstructs breathing and bleeding me and releasing
the fluid as heavy mucus is in any way benign, but the very idea that
I would have to have an epistemological debate with someone who is
supposed to be SWORN to help me sucks.
Then they say something like but you have not proven that the bacteria
in the bioflim in the sinuses are as resistant as to antibiotics as
biofilms in the lab,
somehow ignoreing all the treatment failures by non-biofilm
penetrating antibotics and treatment successes by biofilm breaking
combinations.

There was a study of antihistamine which showed that a preticular
antihistamine that had a rep of making people groggy was not a
sporific in healthy people,
but because a large part of' the groggness exprienced by the CS
sufferer was because of the disturbed sleep of the sinus sufferer
caused by obstructive mucus.
Now Look up the excess mortality attributed to sleep apnea and you see
a pretty high risk associated, however those risk factors
are NEVER reported associated vs sinusitis, even though that is the
context where is occurs. They are cheerfully reporting risk associated
for headache and
apnea but ignore the association with sinusitis.

They have been stonewalling for YEARS.
I am not saying that any of the microbiologists are my friends but I
have been around the situation enough to know that they
are either ignored and or cowed, or they are brash and confident and
seem to suddenly change Universities.
Pre Bush the CDC had a dedicated biofilm lab, now it seems to have
vanished. If we want the Powers that Be to get a clue
we may have to write letters to challange their articals  and put it
on a placard and picket at their convention.

I think that it is up to us to change the system if it is to be
changed.
I think that those who are within the system are assigned to special
committees so that they violate protocal if they speak
individually (a trick known in the trade as cobwebbing) and the whole
thing is so wrapped in politics that the suffering is entirely beside
the point.

I can prove that the biofilms are there in immune competent hosts,
and that their communal life style protects them from antibotics,
and that the present practice guidelines are based upon a set of non-
facts and non-specific tests which make the visit to ENT an expensive
and useless encounter.
Their present mode of practice is the definition of FRAUD, WASTE, AND
ABUSE of the PUBLIC TRUST by shear arrogant entitled complacency.
A Qui Tam law suit under the Federal False Claims Act does not require
that they KNOW that they are defrauding the Government, only that you
can prove that they are, and without any doubt, 7 days a week, prove
the biofilms are there.
What I need is a good lawyer that can cut though the systematic crap
of it-is-irreverent-because-we-say-so and impress on the judges that
what we have here is a whole medical speciality that had decided it
pays to be a walking PLACEBO and inappropriately ignore treatable
infectious editology.

It SO does not have to be this way.
There are simple antibody tests for the quorem sensing chemicals
(lactones) generated by the biofilm. The mucus is full of it.
It would be fast and easy to develop a 7$ dipstick test that would
take 2 minutes to preform,and those who tested positive
could then receive mucolytics, xylitol, sodium nitrite and other film
breakers in addition to the appropriate antibiotics, and one day
PHAGES!!!!!!!!!! The FDA has not even got the start of a plan for
approving phages.
Neil Brooks - 02 Aug 2007 15:21 GMT
>They have been stonewalling for YEARS.
>I am not saying that any of the microbiologists are my friends but I
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>PHAGES!!!!!!!!!! The FDA has not even got the start of a plan for
>approving phages.

Nothing substantial will change in this country until we invoke
SERIOUS reform to lobbying and public financing of campaigns.

The AMA and BigPharma have some of the biggest lobbies in the
nation....
truehawk - 02 Aug 2007 18:21 GMT
> >They have been stonewalling for YEARS.
> >I am not saying that any of the microbiologists are my friends but I
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> The AMA and BigPharma have some of the biggest lobbies in the
> nation....
English ENTs are a big part of the problem.
What is their agenda?
It is not the AMA that is the problem, it is the American Collage of
Otolaryngolists  that has it's head up it's a.s.
The problem seems to be one of selective preception, and of honoring
their English colleges as much as anything else.
We have the forensic and communication tools.
We have the knowledge.
We have the law.
We lack confidence, passion, organization and purpose, but
we could organize to engage them and push them toward the truth.
This stuff degrades the quality of life of everyone from children to
the geriatric and was REALLY bad
for my mother my brother had in a nursing home.  She was in a lot of
idiopathic pain in her chest, which I am pretty sure was from the crud
in her sinuses.

We really do not have to be good sheep and go along with this.

If we do not do what we can while we can the chances are we will still
be fighting this stuff when we are old and less able to make anyone
listen. When you are in a nursing home you can't have any OTC items
that the Drs do not write an order for.
rocketsman@talktalk.net - 01 Aug 2007 17:27 GMT
> > >   Yes, antibiotics are over-prescribed, and yes in these days of
> > > increasing resistance we need to be careful, but there is such a bias
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I could not agree with you more. Some of the authors of the article
are amongst the most influential in CRS treatment in the UK and are
CLUELESS. They haven't grasped the biofilm connection at all. They
race  towards the bacterial resistance to antibiotics story and jam on
the brakes of prescribing them. A recent investigation into MRSA found
it was completely killed off  by ordinary penicillin once the biofilm
was dealt with. This is not drug resistant bacteria but drugs
inability to penetrate biofilm,     yet.
ellen - 04 Aug 2007 00:35 GMT
> > >   Yes, antibiotics are over-prescribed, and yes in these days of
> > > increasing resistance we need to be careful, but there is such a bias
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>  be allowed to practice from a stance of such profound and fundamental
> CLUELESSNESS?

just to tag on to this:  www.factoryfarmmap.org
 
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