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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / August 2007Hydrogen Peroxide - the ID guy says "Good idea"
I tried to post this yesterday a.m., but I seem to have failed.... Yesterday, I was seen by an Infectious Diseases doc of some standing in Southern California. I went to see him to get his opinion on whether some central issue may underlie my apparent difficulty in handling everyday bugs, whether nasally or otherwise. While he had no good explanation for this issue, he DID say that he thought that my use of 35% food grade hydrogen peroxide (about 15 drops from a 3ml syringe) in my 600cc's of irrigation solution (w/2tsp of sea salt) was an excellent idea, provided that it didn't seem to be drying out my sinuses too much (it isn't). He agreed that it's an excellent antimicrobial and should do a good job of keeping commensal bugs at bay. He thought it would be better than Bactroban that was once prescribed to me. Just my $0.02 for today. Good luck, all! > I tried to post this yesterday a.m., but I seem to have failed.... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Just my $0.02 for today. Good luck, all! Neil Did they find an "underlying" issue? >From what I can gather, all you have to do it kill off your cilia via flu, or have a lab accident with HS, or pure O2 or some other gas that fries the little buggers, and you are toast from then on, even if your immune system is tip-top, it can't get to the little buggers once they form the biofilm. Elizabeth >Did they find an "underlying" issue? Nope. No such luck. That part isn't that frustrating to me. What IS more frustrating is that he went beyond telling me that HE doesn't know and basically assured me that NOBODY WILL know--that there CAN be no diagnosis; some people simply have a problem with commensal bugs. I never like that answer. I usually interpret that as "Well, YOU don't know, but maybe somebody else does" ;-) >>From what I can gather, all you have to do it kill off your cilia via >flu, or have a lab accident with HS, >or pure O2 or some other gas that fries the little buggers, and you >are toast from then on, even if your >immune system is tip-top, it can't get to the little buggers once they >form the biofilm. That makes sense to me, Elizabeth. Not only have I had sinus ininfections since adolescence (with the associated scarring), and four surgeries, but I was on those cycloplegic eyedrops--preserved with benzalkonium chloride--for over six years. As we all know: the eyes are the windows to the sinuses. I have absolutely no doubt that my nasal cilia (just like my eyes) are fried, too. There's a theory (well, there probably ISN'T, except in my mind) that the chimerical "extra oxygen molecule" in H202 can help to 'oxygenate' the sinuses. That, along with the irrigation itself, is suggested to be beneficial for restoration of ciliary motility. But who knows. > He agreed that it's an excellent antimicrobial and should do a good > job of keeping commensal bugs at bay. He thought it would be better > than Bactroban that was once prescribed to me. THE CLAIM Hydrogen peroxide is a good treatment for small wounds THE FACTS It is a staple in medicine cabinets everywhere, a first-line treatment for the small cuts and scrapes that a hazardous world can inflict upon our skin. But does hydrogen peroxide really make a difference? According to most studies of its effectiveness, not really. Parents and school nurses might insist otherwise, but researchers have found that hydrogen peroxide has little ability to reduce bacteria in wounds and can inflame healthy skin cells that surround a cut or a scrape, increasing the amount of time wounds take to heal. In a study published in The Journal of Family Practice in 1987, scientists compared the effects of various topical treatments by taking a group of volunteers, administering several small blister wounds on each of their forearms, and then infecting their wounds with bacteria. After applying a different treatment to each wound, they measured bacterial amounts and rates of healing. They found that hydrogen peroxide did not inhibit bacterial growth and that wounds treated with the antibiotic bacitracin healed far more quickly. Another study, in The American Journal of Surgery, looked at more than 200 people who had appendectomies and found that hydrogen peroxide did not reduce the risk of infection at the site of their incisions. But according to the American Medical Association, hydrogen peroxide does have at least one benefit: It can help dislodge dirt, debris and dead tissue in some wounds. THE BOTTOM LINE Studies show hydrogen peroxide is not a very effective treatment for small wounds. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/320536_healthrail21.html >But according to the American Medical > Association, hydrogen peroxide does have at > least one benefit: It can help dislodge dirt, > debris and dead tissue in some wounds. It's sort of like those old westerns, where they use whisky to disinfect the wounds; however, from what I've read, there isn't enough alcohol in booze to do crap. Likewise with the hydrogen peroxide. ....I don't think a person could stand the pain if they used it at a strength that would kill anything. ....However, I think your quote above, hit the nail on the head... It sets up such an irritation inside that the sinuses basically purge themselves. The first time I used it, I flushed out --or rather, basically sneezed out-- a bunch of crap, and then this was followed by a release of pure blood. The bottom line is (as far as I'm concerned), it does benefit the sinuses. ...And as I said before, I wouldn't be surprised that somewhere down the road, H²O² will become a standard therapy with regards to helping the body get the sinuses get back on track. ...Jon A practical question: where do you get food grade 35% hydrogen peroxide? The stuff in my bathroom is 3%.? Judy On Jul 26, 9:28 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote: > >But according to the American Medical > > Association, hydrogen peroxide does have at [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > down the road, H?O? will become a standard therapy with regards to > helping the body get the sinuses get back on track. ...Jon judy.nudelman@gmail.com (judy.n) wrote: >A practical question: where do you get food > grade 35% hydrogen peroxide? The stuff in > my bathroom is 3%.? Judy I just use the 3% myself. ...I simply tip the bottle up and put a "glug" of the peroxide (2 or 3 tablespoons) into my irrigation solution. ..I've found you can use more if you use really cold water, but I think overdoing the peroxide aggravates the sinusitis -- and may even make one's condition worse. IE: Too much inflammation from the subsequent burning. ...I think the trick is, is to use just enough to aggravate things inside. I've noticed in this case, my sinuses tend to feel clear as a bell the following day. ...However, if I over-use it (IE: by adding too much), I spend the next few days totally congested, and my sinuses feel like a flame thrower was turned on them. Conversely, I think if one uses too little, I don't think it does squat. I irrigate about once a week with the H²O² in my solution. ...I irrigate normally, but when the liquid nears the end, I tilt my head so my frontals are the furthest down in the sink. I stay in this position for a few minutes, and all the while I can hear some snapping and popping going on in my ethmoids. ...As to whether the 0² in the H²O² is doing anything at this point, I haven't a clue. ....But I know the mixture has helped me with my sinusitis overall. ...Jon >judy.nudelman@gmail.com (judy.n) wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >I just use the 3% myself. ... The only thing I wonder about -- and that's all I can do because I just don't know -- is the NON-H2O2 ingredients in the brown-bottle stuff. Aren't there stabilizers, and other extraneous junk in there, and -- if so -- are there risks to using that sort of OTC product with irrigation? >> judy.nudelman@gmail.com (judy.n) wrote: >>> A practical question: where do you get food [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > if so -- are there risks to using that sort of OTC product with > irrigation? Hydrogen Peroxide Grades 3% Hydrogen Peroxide (Drug/Grocery Store Variety) Used as antimicrobial agent for treating wounds and sanitizing agent [Made from 50% Super D Peroxide, Diluted. Contains stabilizers - phenol, acetanilide, sodium stanate, tetrasodium phosphate among them.] [This peroxide contains known chemicals do not ingest!] 6% Hydrogen Peroxide Used by Beauticians for Coloring Hair. Used as sanitizing agent. Comes in strengths labeled 10,20,40 volume. Must have activator added to be used as a bleach. [Contains stabilizers, additives, and impurities dependent on manufacturing and dilution process. Do not ingest.] 30% Re-Agent Hydrogen Peroxide Used in medical research. [Contains stabilizers, additives, and impurities dependent on manufacturing and dilution process. Do not ingest.] 30-32% Electronic Grade Hydrogen Peroxide Used for washing transistors and integrated chip parts before assembly. [Contains stabilizers, additives, and impurities dependent on manufacturing and dilution process. Do not ingest.] 35% Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide (Also 50% Food Grade H2O2) [....*....]. Also used to spray inside of foil lined containers for food storage - known as the aseptic packaging system. [...*...additional information removed for FDA compliance] [Contains stabilizers, additives, and impurities dependent on manufacturing and dilution process. --e.g. This Food Grade Hyrogen Peroxide is Stabilized using tin based formulations ] 35% Technical Grade Hydrogen Peroxide (Click to Order Now) Used for waste water treatment and the disinfection of potable water, cosmetics, and laundry applications. [...*...additional information removed for FDA compliance] [May contain a small amount of phosphorus to neutralize any chlorine in the water it is combined with.] MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET & Technical Details: Hydrogen Peroxide (20 to 40%) 35% Standard Grade Hydrogen Peroxide (Also 50%, 60%, 70% Standard Grades) Used mainly for bleaching in the pulp and paper industry and in the textile industry; oxidation reactions in the chemical industry; environmental processes (detoxification and deodorization). Used for Waste water treatment. [Contains stabilizers, additives, and impurities Do not ingest.] 90% Hydrogen Peroxide Used by the military as a source of Oxygen at Cape Canaveral. Used as a propulsion source in rocket fuel. 99.6% Hydrogen Peroxide This was first made in 1954 as an experiment to see how pure a hydrogen peroxide could be manufactured. Amazing information. The common wisdom in medicine these days is that hydrogen peroxide is toxic to healing tissues, and shouldn't be used for wound cleaning, it's better to use soap and water, and then saline dressings. Betadine (iodine) is also toxic, and lots of people are allergic to it. So, as much as I'd love to use a topical antimicrobial, I'm really leary about the effects of hydrogen peroxide, even dilute food grade, on mucosa and on cilia. Is there any data that it's safe? I used to buy a commercial product, Xlear, which is a xylitol nasal wash. They used grape seed extract as a preservative and natural antimicrobial. So, I just wonder if Neil's ID MD had data to support his recommendation to continue the use of the dilute food grade H202? It worries me that it's more toxic than helpful. But, I'd love to hear that it's safe. Anyway to avoid antibiotics... Judy > >>> A practical question: where do you get food > >>> grade 35% hydrogen peroxide? The stuff in [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > This was first made in 1954 as an experiment to see how pure a hydrogen > peroxide could be manufactured. > Amazing information. > The common wisdom in medicine these days is that hydrogen peroxide is [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Judy I missed your post here, Doc. I just did five minutes of digging, and -- while it's not EXACTLY on point (ie, nasal lavage), I got an additional comfort level by looking at this info: http://www.epa.gov/EPA-PEST/2000/December/Day-01/p30680.htm Any thoughts?? Anybody see anything that my feeble little eyeballs may have missed? Neil I've heard that it is cytotoxic to cells: Here's a link to urban legends and hydrogen peroxide, they recommend it for cleaning toothbrushes, but not applying it to mucosa http://www.snopes.com/medical/homecure/peroxide.asp >From an ER journal: The major error here, of course, was committed by the surgical resident who, for some unfathomable reason, decided to use hydrogen peroxide as an irrigating solution. Hydrogen peroxide solutions are corrosive and can cause tissue necrosis. In addition, they release oxygen into the tissues when they come in contact with peroxidases and hemoglobin. The only irrigating solution that has been shown to be effective and relatively innocuous is normal saline http://www.emedmag.com/html/pre/err/0804.asp Here's a Medscape article, more scientific, that says it's not all that useful on wounds, but not toxic http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/456300_3 An article from Ohio State that says 3% hydrogen peroxide is harmful, but dilute solutions are helpful http://heartlung.osu.edu/article.cfm?ID=2229 An article for patients: Avoid putting products such as hydrogen peroxide, alcohol, or iodine solutions in the wound. These only delay wound healing and do not do anything to prevent infection. http://www.medicinenet.com/cuts_scrapes_and_puncture_wounds/article.htm >From a wound care forum: Hydrogen Peroxide in Wound Care. Action is the mechanical cleansing and debridement by effervescent action. Considerations when using are: Can cause ulceration of newly formed tissue Toxic to fibroblasts Should never be used to pack sinus tracts: can cause air embolism Should not be used for forceful irrigation; can cause subcutaneous emphysema, which mimics gas gangrene Data from Cooper, D: Fundamental; products and their usage. In Guide to Wound Care, Chicago, 1983 Many studies have documented that the use of hydrogen peroxide in open wounds is not only cytotoxic to bacteria, but also to white blood cells and vital wound healing cells such as fibroblasts. This is because their primary mechanism of action is to destroy cell walls regardless of the identity of the cell. The use of cytotoxic agents in wounds should be weighed in light of this. In addition to the absence of clinical benefit, antiseptics may also encourage the development of resistant organisms. Doughty 1994 Hellewell, et al, 1997: Hess 1990; Nwomeh, Yager, and Cohen 1998 http://www.hcaw.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=13 So, enough of this: it seems as though 3% hydrogen peroxide is widely considered toxic to healing cells and not particuarly antimicrobial, but there may be a place for more dilute solutions. And there is use for the stuff for cleaning toothbrushes. However, articles aside, I'm a fim beliver in anecdotal evidence: people's experiences. Personally, I'm not up for trying it, but many people who post here have found it helpful. Judy On Aug 5, 12:11 pm, neil0...@yahoo.com wrote: > > Amazing information. > > The common wisdom in medicine these days is that hydrogen peroxide is [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Neil [good references snipped] >So, enough of this: it seems as though 3% hydrogen peroxide is widely >considered toxic to healing cells and not particuarly antimicrobial, >but there may be a place for more dilute solutions. And there is use >for the stuff for cleaning toothbrushes. In my regimen (again: haven't done the math), I put 15 drops (from a syringe that has ... maybe ... a 20ga needle (wife's a Nurse Practitioner) of 35% food-grade H2O2 (and four drops of the Nutriteam Grapefruit Seed Extract and 2tsp of sea salt) into my 20oz WaterPik reservoir. So ... - 1ml ~ 15 drops - 20oz ~ 600ml - 15 drops (1ml)/600ml = .0250 - 35% HP @ .0250 = dilution to .875% (< 1%) Sounds like I'm diluting it down to 0.875% strength (plus the GSE and the salt). Anybody/everybody buy that? >However, articles aside, I'm a fim beliver in anecdotal evidence: >people's experiences. Me, too ... at least as a starting place for further clinical testing (which H2O2 basically does NOT get). >Personally, I'm not up for trying it, but many people who post here >have found it helpful. Can't say I blame you. Uncharted waters, and all.... I'm moving forward with getting it intravenously. I did it before -- years back -- along with a high-dose Vitamin C infusion. Anecdotally, I recall feeling REALLY good (I did it in "prep") for my third strabismus surgery, and am certainly aware of no deleterious effects.... ****IMPORTANT: READ BELOW**** >In my regimen (again: haven't done the math), I put 15 drops (from a >syringe that has ... maybe ... a 20ga needle (wife's a Nurse [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Sounds like I'm diluting it down to 0.875% strength (plus the GSE and >the salt). And now I HAVE done the math, but I did it INCORRECTLY, based on using "textbook" information about how many drops comprise a millileter (ml). I took a FAST look today, as I injected my 15 drops of 35% H2O2 into the cup where I mix my witch's brew and ... 15 drops ... from this syringe ... with this gauge of needle ... IS FAR LESS THAN 1ml. I'll have to actually figure out the absolute qty of H2O2 at another time, but ... I came to whatever that amount IS by simply titrating up ... a drop or two at a time ... until it stung on irrigation, but not badly. At this point, it still stings on irrigation, but not badly, and there is NO lingering burning after the irrigation is complete. So ... particularly since it's dramatically less than a 1% solution ... some of you may WANT to give it a whirl. With the other favorable comments we've had around here, .... Good luck! >However, articles aside, I'm a fim beliver in > anecdotal evidence: people's experiences. > >Personally, I'm not up for trying it, but many >people who post here have found it helpful. Well I know that over 3 years ago, if I put even the slightest pressure on my left eyeball, it hurt like hell (as it had for a few years). ..And I had been irrigating for years by this time with a fairly strong saline solution, up to three times a day. ...It did nothing for this. ..Yet... the first time I tried the peroxide in the saline irrigation, I spewed a load of mucus and blood into the tub following "cando's" head down method. ...The pain was terrible... But since that one session, I have never had even the slightest bit of pain from even firmly rubbing my eyeball. ...That sold me on it. ...I don't know how it worked... But it worked. I still believe that after all these BS tests clear, hydrogen peroxide will become one of the key tools used in the control of chronic sinusitis. ..I only wish the scientists would be realisic with some of their tests. ...They probably drop a rat into 100% pure hydrogen peroxide and say: "Yep the rat died... I guess H²0² is bad for people". ..Jon On Aug 8, 8:34 pm, Johnny1...@webtv.net wrote: > >However, articles aside, I'm a fim beliver in > > anecdotal evidence: people's experiences. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > and say: "Yep the rat died... I guess H?0? is bad for people". > ..Jon I have had good luck with putting the 3% on a bit of cotton and putting that in place on a sore spot. I have also tried a lot of things vs my heavy mucus in the test tube. Only the peroxide eventually takes it apart after a day or so, otherwise it takes more than a week for it to depolymerized by itself. I have had good luck with the sore spot healing rapidly afterward, so it it damages cells, it seems to damage them less than the stuff that it killed. >A practical question: where do you get food grade 35% hydrogen >peroxide? The stuff in my bathroom is 3%.? I actually bought the last two bottles over a year ago and simply cannot remember which was my source. I THINK it was here: http://www.dfwx.com/h2o2.htm You really have to do your darndest to tune out the text, claims, and philosophies of these websites; a bit over the top.... There are numerous other online sources, too. It's used in aseptic manufacturing, pool/spa sterilization, etc. Based on a few other recommendations, I've begun using a very dilute mixture as a bleach substitute for household disinfecting/cleaning, AND spritzing the foliage in my wife's garden. Neil |
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