Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / June 2007
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Susan - 25 Jun 2007 22:40 GMT Judy, can you please post the references (an article of yours, too, I think) showing the (in)accuracy of C-T for sinusitis?
I've just come home from a visit with a friendly, but dismisive ENT who says the C-T is completely accurate (and he ordered one), that culture and sensitivity(requested by my infectious diseases doc) is unnecessary, and that if anything, he'd do middle meatal. I asked about nasal wash endoscopy and he didn't seem interested.
After discussion of my symptoms, the stuff that comes out of my nose, the rapid rebound post abx, the suppression of my adrenals by infections and the need to treat them aggressively, the request of my ID doc for culture, he blew it all off, saying "well you clearly have allergic rhinitis, and I don't think your sinus is at the epicenter of your problems." DOH.
Any infection takes a damning toll on a Cushing's patient.
I need references, please, before I write my new PCP (Family physician) to tell her why I think I wasted my time with an ENT she spoke highly of.
Susan
judy.n - 26 Jun 2007 01:43 GMT Susan, they were old, taken from a Clinical Correlations Article in JAMA, 1999 by Kennedy, I'll have to see if there are any newer and better references. A while back someone posted a reference about comparing tissue removed at surgery to CT (at least I think I remember that). It might take a day or so, but I'll search around for a rebuttal. FYI: my ENT was featured in a local paper--he diagnosed Wegener's Granulomatosis in a young girl with nosebleeds--early, before it could do much systemic damage. When I wrote to congratulate him, he wrote back that with all the frustrations in medicine, sometimes you're blessed to make a difference in someone's life. The sinus at the epicenter of your life echoes a horrible thing said to me: I had surgery at Mass Eye and Ear by a self-proclaimed national expert, who when I developed a pseudomonas osteomyelitis post-op, and he literally refused to ever see me back (he never did--my ENT did the two subsequent clean up surgeries), told me to "stop obscessing about what comes out of your nose." Try a pubmed search, and I'll hunt around. No test is ever perfectly sensitive and specific. Almost every MRI reports sinus disease--too sensitive. Judy
> x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Susan Susan - 26 Jun 2007 03:10 GMT > Susan, they were old, taken from a Clinical Correlations Article in > JAMA, 1999 by Kennedy, I'll have to see if there are any newer and > better references. A while back someone posted a reference about > comparing tissue removed at surgery to CT (at least I think I remember > that). It might take a day or so, but I'll search around for a > rebuttal. Thanks, Judy. I'm kind of brain dead, and it's hard for me to analyze data.
I just got a reply from the neurosurgeon at M.D. Anderson to my MRI. Looks like pit tumor on both sides, either two tumors, or one wrapping around.
I wish I had a vice to enjoy right now.
> FYI: my ENT was featured in a local paper--he diagnosed Wegener's > Granulomatosis in a young girl with nosebleeds--early, before it could > do much systemic damage. When I wrote to congratulate him, he wrote > back that with all the frustrations in medicine, sometimes you're > blessed to make a difference in someone's life. There's an attitude I'd like to find more often. He sounds like a gem.
> The sinus at the epicenter of your life echoes a horrible thing said > to me: I had surgery at Mass Eye and Ear by a self-proclaimed national > expert, who when I developed a pseudomonas osteomyelitis post-op, and > he literally refused to ever see me back (he never did--my ENT did the > two subsequent clean up surgeries), told me to "stop obscessing about > what comes out of your nose." He sounds like a dic*head. This guy was smiley, friendly, not arrogant, but just ignorant and dismissive. Plus, he seems to hand out steroids like candy.
> Try a pubmed search, and I'll hunt around. No test is ever perfectly > sensitive and specific. Almost every MRI reports sinus disease--too > sensitive. He's really sure that if it's there, it's on the C-T.
Frankly, with my adrenal status and possible transsphenoidal surgery, I don't need anyone dragging sh*t from my sinuses into my brain.
Susan
truehawk - 26 Jun 2007 04:54 GMT Try this.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20021115/1882.html
Also ask you ENT what the sensivity and selectivity of the cultures is and what preportion of bacteria that can be cultured. Dollars to donuts he does not have a clue.
The catch 22 is that the way the laws are written ONLY MDs are allow to examine human tissue, unless it can be defined as waste water or a waste stream. I can not use stains and DNA or RNA probes identily the density of different bacterial forms from location to location on anyone other than myself. because I would violate 16 different laws. So only MDs, after approval of the institution's Human Studies Commitee can work with identifable human tissue, and while the dentists are sequencing the metagenome of the mouth, everything in sight, the ENTs are oblivious. The lining of the sinuses develops from tissue of the "primative mouth" by the way. If we defined the sinuses, ostemeatal complex, and adenoids and tonsiles as part of the mouth and thus fair game for dentists, they would have compared the metagenome of goos from CS suffers with healthy controls and solved the thing three years ago.
About the MRIs, a couple of chemical engineers developed a zinc based stain to that turns the biofilms pink. The ENTs are not terribly interested. A contrast agent was developed that highlights beta amyloid. (that stuff in altzheimer's plaques) It keeps lighting up the sinuses with far greater intensity than the brain, so they wonder at it's usefullness! ????? E-coli makes beta amyloid and e-coli killing phages cure altzheimers in mice, so it does not take a genuis to make a connection between amyloid signal showing up in the sinuses, amyloid producing bacteria in inflammed sinuses and amyloid plaques in the brain. And these people are no dummies. One truely wonders if the medical research community is so busy playing the grant game of seeing how little information that they can produce for a certain amount of money and still get funding, that they forget that they and their families and loved ones have sinuses and brains too.
Susan - 26 Jun 2007 05:43 GMT > Try this. > > http://www.aafp.org/afp/20021115/1882.html Did I miss something in it? It discusses false positives, I always have negatives.
> Also ask you ENT what the sensivity and selectivity of the cultures is > and what preportion of bacteria that can be cultured. > Dollars to donuts he does not have a clue. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're saying here.
> The catch 22 is that the way the laws are written ONLY MDs are allow > to examine human tissue, unless it can be defined as waste water or a [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > forget that they and their families and loved ones have sinuses and > brains too. Steven L. - 26 Jun 2007 08:22 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and that if anything, he'd do middle meatal. I asked about nasal wash > endoscopy and he didn't seem interested. I assume you're primarily interested in the rate of false NEGATIVES, correct?
Logically, you would expect that CT scans or *ANY* radiological scan would have a high incidence of false POSITIVES, right? Because other things besides a true sinusitis can cause inflamed and swollen sinuses--a bad cold or non-allergic rhinitis. And sure enough, the false POSITIVE rate of CT is known to be high, when these other factors are present.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3225/is_10_66/ai_94346768
As for false NEGATIVES, the numbers we used to use around here were around 5% or maybe a bit higher. But that's the number that's been floating around this NG for up to 10 years so I no longer remember how we arrived at it.
The more recent studies haven't been encouraging either (though this abstract alone doesn't specify the actual percentages):
http://tinyurl.com/36xbrr
In my case, the CT scan failed twice to find all the sinusitis that the surgical procedure uncovered. Heck, over the time this NG has been here (up to 10 years), we've had many posters complain that the CT scans missed things. (Of course I don't know if that was the fault of the scan, the radiologist or the ENT who read the scan.) But I know you don't just want anecdotal evidence.
 Signature Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Susan - 26 Jun 2007 13:11 GMT > I assume you're primarily interested in the rate of false NEGATIVES, > correct? Yes. The fact that I may be having a brain surgery through my sinuses makes this whole issue a LOT more critical for me now.
> Logically, you would expect that CT scans or *ANY* radiological scan > would have a high incidence of false POSITIVES, right? Because other [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > floating around this NG for up to 10 years so I no longer remember how > we arrived at it. I thought that was the number for all C-Ts, though, and that it's higher for ethmoid? I have extraordinarily high bone density, which may make it more difficult to see things or interpret them. One radiologist told me he'd never seen bones like mine or anatomy like mine.
> The more recent studies haven't been encouraging either (though this > abstract alone doesn't specify the actual percentages): [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > scan, the radiologist or the ENT who read the scan.) But I know you > don't just want anecdotal evidence. Right; I saw an ENT who dismissed all my report and just believes what he sees on an C-T. I have my hands full with other med issues right now, I had to go to across the country to be diagnosed properly, and I don't want to have to fight this battle, too.
I can't believe he's blowing off my Inf. Diseases' doc's request for culture and sensitivity. He seemed ill at ease when I asked about nasal wash endoscopy and culture.
Thanks.
Susan
truehawk - 26 Jun 2007 19:13 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Susan Susan: Here is an artical that I have posted before. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20041101/1685.html
>From the table you can see that CT has not been evaluated for selectivity and sensitivity with sinus aspiration as a reference standard. I have ask Judy and Steven for their references several times, and they havn't come up with anything so far.
For plain radiography showing mucosal thicking they show 90% sensitivity (which means 10% false negs) and 61% selectivity (which means 39% false positives).
About false negative cultures. Bacteria that are unculturable can still cause havoc, but it they can't cultrue it, they can't find in cultures. (Duh). Pseudomodas used to be unculturable.
It is not uncommon to find 3 or 7 species that only grow when are all are found togther. Because they don't grow in isolation the present system is not set up to deal with them even if they produce important toxins, so it pretends that they do not exist. Do a search on "unculturable bacteria" and see the gap between what the microbiologist finds is there and what the MD considers for yourself.
Steven L. - 26 Jun 2007 20:13 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I thought that was the number for all C-Ts, though, and that it's higher > for ethmoid? I had not heard any such data myself. But it makes sense, given the complexity of those tiny honeycomb partitions in the ethmoids.
>> The more recent studies haven't been encouraging either (though this >> abstract alone doesn't specify the actual percentages): [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Right; I saw an ENT who dismissed all my report and just believes what > he sees on an C-T. Get a second opinion.
In my experience, the best ENTs will diagnose based on the full range of data, ESPECIALLY a detailed patient history and symptomatology. My current ENT told me that in his *judgment*, based on my patient *history*, he was sure I had chronic sinusitis even though the CT scan didn't show it. He turned out to be right, and during surgery he found a mucocele in a left ethmoid that the CT scan had totally missed. Get it, "judgment," "history," "symptomatology" are at least as important as the radiological scans.
You need to find one of *those* ENTs for a second opinion.
It might be worth purchasing this paper for reference: http://tinyurl.com/36xbrr
Like I said, the results are not encouraging.
> I can't believe he's blowing off my Inf. Diseases' doc's request for > culture and sensitivity. Well, I understand that problem. The *only* physician I ever saw who does nasal wash cultures routinely is Dr. Wellington Tichenor in New York. Even my own ENT doesn't do that. He and other ENTs do the usual type of culture where the pus is sampled at the sinus ostia. And if there's no visible pus to sample, then they can't do that type of culture.
 Signature Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Susan - 26 Jun 2007 20:46 GMT > I had not heard any such data myself. But it makes sense, given the > complexity of those tiny honeycomb partitions in the ethmoids. I also have the complication of wierdly thick/dense bones that radiologists don't know what to make of.
>>> The more recent studies haven't been encouraging either (though this >>> abstract alone doesn't specify the actual percentages): [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Get a second opinion. I'm kind of overwhelmed with the main problem, additional testing for Cushing's to get surgery approved for the likely pituitary tumor on my MRI, trying to aggressively treat active Lyme arhtropathy in my right ankle and CNS, and I have never had any luck finding a competent ENT here in my area.
> In my experience, the best ENTs will diagnose based on the full range of > data, ESPECIALLY a detailed patient history and symptomatology. My [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You need to find one of *those* ENTs for a second opinion. I can't. I tried.
> It might be worth purchasing this paper for reference: > http://tinyurl.com/36xbrr Thanks. I'd buy it if the page for all my personal info were encrypted. :-/
> Like I said, the results are not encouraging. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > type of culture where the pus is sampled at the sinus ostia. And if > there's no visible pus to sample, then they can't do that type of culture. Is that the middle meatus? That's all he said he would do.
Susan
judy.n - 27 Jun 2007 00:58 GMT Susan, Sorry I haven't had time to look for the data on the sensitivity and specificity of sinus CT: anecdotally, my ENT ALWAYS requests the images--he feels the radiologists don't report the information that is important to him. As Elizabeth has said, biofilms won't necessarily show on a CT, yet they clearly can cause chronic, resistant sinusitis. The culture of the middle meatus, is just swabbing the ostea. I could see how at this point, your pituitary adenoma is the most important issue. I hope it can be resolved noninvasively. Judy
> x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Susan Susan - 27 Jun 2007 02:54 GMT > Susan, > Sorry I haven't had time to look for the data on the sensitivity and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I could see how at this point, your pituitary adenoma is the most > important issue. I hope it can be resolved noninvasively. Judy, I've had a few lessons in recent months on the lack of trustworthiness of radiologist readings. The key is to always ask a surgeon to take a second look. Radiology ignored evidence of my probable pituitary tumor, too.
Once I've had more testing, I'll likely end up with a transnasal or transsphenoidal surgery on the pituitary. Kind of critical to get my sinuses treated effectively before that, eh?
Susan
Susan - 26 Jun 2007 21:17 GMT > It might be worth purchasing this paper for reference: > http://tinyurl.com/36xbrr > > Like I said, the results are not encouraging. Okay, I purchased it. Anyone who'd like a PDF copy, let me know and I'll email it.
Susan
truehawk - 26 Jun 2007 21:35 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Susan Susan :
I would love a PDF copy.
I have long been convinced that the CT scan is not very sensitive or specific, but I had not been able to find a paper on the subject.
Good luck even getting you ENT to look at it.
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