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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / June 2007

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Susan - 25 Jun 2007 22:40 GMT
Judy, can you please post the references (an article of yours, too, I
think) showing the (in)accuracy of C-T for sinusitis?

I've just come home from a visit with a friendly, but dismisive ENT who
says the C-T is completely accurate (and he ordered one), that culture
and sensitivity(requested by my infectious diseases doc) is unnecessary,
and that if anything, he'd do middle meatal.  I asked about nasal wash
endoscopy and he didn't seem interested.

After discussion of my symptoms, the stuff that comes out of my nose,
the rapid rebound post abx, the suppression of my adrenals by infections
and the need to treat them aggressively, the request of my ID doc for
culture, he blew it all off, saying "well you clearly have allergic
rhinitis, and I don't think your sinus is at the epicenter of your
problems."  DOH.

Any infection takes a damning toll on a Cushing's patient.

I need references, please, before I write my new PCP (Family physician)
to tell her why I think I wasted my time with an ENT she spoke highly of.

Susan
judy.n - 26 Jun 2007 01:43 GMT
Susan, they were old, taken from a Clinical Correlations Article in
JAMA, 1999 by Kennedy, I'll have to see if there are any newer and
better references. A while back someone posted a reference about
comparing tissue removed at surgery to CT (at least I think I remember
that). It might take a day or so, but I'll search around for a
rebuttal.
 FYI: my ENT was featured in a local paper--he diagnosed Wegener's
Granulomatosis in a young girl with nosebleeds--early, before it could
do much systemic damage. When I wrote to congratulate him, he wrote
back that with all the frustrations in medicine, sometimes you're
blessed to make a difference in someone's life.
 The sinus at the epicenter of your life echoes a horrible thing said
to me: I had surgery at Mass Eye and Ear by a self-proclaimed national
expert, who when I developed a pseudomonas osteomyelitis post-op, and
he literally refused to ever see me back (he never did--my ENT did the
two subsequent clean up surgeries), told me to "stop obscessing about
what comes out of your nose."
 Try a pubmed search, and I'll hunt around. No test is ever perfectly
sensitive and specific. Almost every MRI reports sinus disease--too
sensitive.
Judy

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 26 Jun 2007 03:10 GMT
> Susan, they were old, taken from a Clinical Correlations Article in
> JAMA, 1999 by Kennedy, I'll have to see if there are any newer and
> better references. A while back someone posted a reference about
> comparing tissue removed at surgery to CT (at least I think I remember
> that). It might take a day or so, but I'll search around for a
> rebuttal.

Thanks, Judy.  I'm kind of brain dead, and it's hard for me to analyze data.

I just got a reply from the neurosurgeon at M.D. Anderson to my MRI.
Looks like pit tumor on both sides, either two tumors, or one wrapping
around.

I wish I had a vice to enjoy right now.

>   FYI: my ENT was featured in a local paper--he diagnosed Wegener's
> Granulomatosis in a young girl with nosebleeds--early, before it could
> do much systemic damage. When I wrote to congratulate him, he wrote
> back that with all the frustrations in medicine, sometimes you're
> blessed to make a difference in someone's life.

There's an attitude I'd like to find more often.  He sounds like a gem.

>   The sinus at the epicenter of your life echoes a horrible thing said
> to me: I had surgery at Mass Eye and Ear by a self-proclaimed national
> expert, who when I developed a pseudomonas osteomyelitis post-op, and
> he literally refused to ever see me back (he never did--my ENT did the
> two subsequent clean up surgeries), told me to "stop obscessing about
> what comes out of your nose."

He sounds like a dic*head.  This guy was smiley, friendly, not arrogant,
but just ignorant and dismissive.  Plus, he seems to hand out steroids
like candy.

>   Try a pubmed search, and I'll hunt around. No test is ever perfectly
> sensitive and specific. Almost every MRI reports sinus disease--too
> sensitive.

He's really sure that if it's there, it's on the C-T.

Frankly, with my adrenal status and possible transsphenoidal surgery, I
don't need anyone dragging sh*t from my sinuses into my brain.

Susan
truehawk - 26 Jun 2007 04:54 GMT
Try this.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20021115/1882.html

Also ask you ENT what the sensivity and selectivity of the cultures is
and what preportion of bacteria that can be cultured.
Dollars to donuts he does not have a clue.

The catch 22 is that the way the laws are written ONLY MDs are allow
to examine human tissue, unless it can be defined as waste water or a
waste stream.
I can not use stains and DNA or RNA probes identily the density of
different bacterial forms from location to location on anyone other
than myself.  because I would violate 16 different laws. So only MDs,
after approval of the institution's Human Studies Commitee can work
with identifable human tissue, and while the dentists are sequencing
the metagenome of the mouth, everything in sight, the ENTs are
oblivious.
The lining of the sinuses develops from tissue of the "primative
mouth" by the way.  If we defined the sinuses, ostemeatal complex, and
adenoids and tonsiles as part of the mouth and thus fair game for
dentists, they would have compared the metagenome of goos from CS
suffers with healthy controls and solved the thing three years ago.

About the MRIs, a couple of chemical engineers  developed a zinc based
stain to  that turns the biofilms pink. The ENTs are not terribly
interested.
A contrast agent was developed that highlights beta amyloid. (that
stuff in altzheimer's plaques)
It keeps lighting up the sinuses with far greater intensity than the
brain, so they wonder at it's usefullness!
?????
E-coli makes beta amyloid and e-coli killing phages cure altzheimers
in mice, so it does not take a genuis to make a connection between
amyloid signal showing up in the sinuses, amyloid producing bacteria
in inflammed sinuses and amyloid plaques in the brain.
And these people are no dummies.
One truely wonders if the medical research community is so busy
playing the grant game of seeing how little information that they can
produce for a certain amount of money and still get funding, that they
forget that they and their families and loved ones have sinuses and
brains too.
Susan - 26 Jun 2007 05:43 GMT
> Try this.
>
> http://www.aafp.org/afp/20021115/1882.html

Did I miss something in it?  It discusses false positives, I always have
negatives.

> Also ask you ENT what the sensivity and selectivity of the cultures is
> and what preportion of bacteria that can be cultured.
> Dollars to donuts he does not have a clue.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're saying here.

> The catch 22 is that the way the laws are written ONLY MDs are allow
> to examine human tissue, unless it can be defined as waste water or a
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> forget that they and their families and loved ones have sinuses and
> brains too.
Steven L. - 26 Jun 2007 08:22 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and that if anything, he'd do middle meatal.  I asked about nasal wash
> endoscopy and he didn't seem interested.

I assume you're primarily interested in the rate of false NEGATIVES,
correct?

Logically, you would expect that CT scans or *ANY* radiological scan
would have a high incidence of false POSITIVES, right?  Because other
things besides a true sinusitis can cause inflamed and swollen
sinuses--a bad cold or non-allergic rhinitis.  And sure enough, the
false POSITIVE rate of CT is known to be high, when these other factors
are present.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3225/is_10_66/ai_94346768

As for false NEGATIVES, the numbers we used to use around here were
around 5% or maybe a bit higher.  But that's the number that's been
floating around this NG for up to 10 years so I no longer remember how
we arrived at it.

The more recent studies haven't been encouraging either (though this
abstract alone doesn't specify the actual percentages):

http://tinyurl.com/36xbrr

In my case, the CT scan failed twice to find all the sinusitis that the
surgical procedure uncovered.  Heck, over the time this NG has been here
(up to 10 years), we've had many posters complain that the CT scans
missed things.  (Of course I don't know if that was the fault of the
scan, the radiologist or the ENT who read the scan.)  But I know you
don't just want anecdotal evidence.

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Steven D. Litvintchouk
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Susan - 26 Jun 2007 13:11 GMT
> I assume you're primarily interested in the rate of false NEGATIVES,
> correct?

Yes.  The fact that I may be having a brain surgery through my sinuses
makes this whole issue a LOT more critical for me now.

> Logically, you would expect that CT scans or *ANY* radiological scan
> would have a high incidence of false POSITIVES, right?  Because other
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> floating around this NG for up to 10 years so I no longer remember how
> we arrived at it.

I thought that was the number for all C-Ts, though, and that it's higher
for ethmoid?  I have extraordinarily high bone density, which may make
it more difficult to see things or interpret them.  One radiologist told
me he'd never seen bones like mine or anatomy like mine.

> The more recent studies haven't been encouraging either (though this
> abstract alone doesn't specify the actual percentages):
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> scan, the radiologist or the ENT who read the scan.)  But I know you
> don't just want anecdotal evidence.

Right; I saw an ENT who dismissed all my report and just believes what
he sees on an C-T.  I have my hands full with other med issues right
now, I had to go to across the country to be diagnosed properly, and I
don't want to have to fight this battle, too.

I can't believe he's blowing off my Inf. Diseases' doc's request for
culture and sensitivity.  He seemed ill at ease when I asked about nasal
wash endoscopy and culture.

Thanks.

Susan
truehawk - 26 Jun 2007 19:13 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> Susan

Susan:
Here is an artical that I have posted before.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20041101/1685.html
>From the  table you can see that CT has not been evaluated for
selectivity and sensitivity with sinus aspiration as a reference
standard.
I have ask Judy and Steven for their references several times, and
they havn't come up with anything so far.

For plain radiography showing mucosal thicking they show 90%
sensitivity (which means 10% false negs) and 61% selectivity (which
means 39% false positives).

About false negative cultures.  Bacteria that are unculturable can
still cause havoc, but it they can't cultrue it, they can't find in
cultures. (Duh). Pseudomodas used to be unculturable.

It is not uncommon to find 3 or 7 species that only grow when are all
are found togther.  Because they don't grow in isolation the present
system is not set up to deal with them even if they produce important
toxins, so it pretends that they do not exist.
Do a search on "unculturable bacteria" and see the gap between what
the microbiologist finds is there and what the MD considers for
yourself.
Steven L. - 26 Jun 2007 20:13 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I thought that was the number for all C-Ts, though, and that it's higher
> for ethmoid?  

I had not heard any such data myself.  But it makes sense, given the
complexity of those tiny honeycomb partitions in the ethmoids.

>> The more recent studies haven't been encouraging either (though this
>> abstract alone doesn't specify the actual percentages):
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Right; I saw an ENT who dismissed all my report and just believes what
> he sees on an C-T.  

Get a second opinion.

In my experience, the best ENTs will diagnose based on the full range of
 data, ESPECIALLY a detailed patient history and symptomatology.  My
current ENT told me that in his *judgment*, based on my patient
*history*, he was sure I had chronic sinusitis even though the CT scan
didn't show it.  He turned out to be right, and during surgery he found
a mucocele in a left ethmoid that the CT scan had totally missed.  Get
it, "judgment," "history," "symptomatology" are at least as important as
the radiological scans.

You need to find one of *those* ENTs for a second opinion.

It might be worth purchasing this paper for reference:
http://tinyurl.com/36xbrr

Like I said, the results are not encouraging.

> I can't believe he's blowing off my Inf. Diseases' doc's request for
> culture and sensitivity.

Well, I understand that problem.  The *only* physician I ever saw who
does nasal wash cultures routinely is Dr. Wellington Tichenor in New
York.  Even my own ENT doesn't do that.  He and other ENTs do the usual
type of culture where the pus is sampled at the sinus ostia.  And if
there's no visible pus to sample, then they can't do that type of culture.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Susan - 26 Jun 2007 20:46 GMT
> I had not heard any such data myself.  But it makes sense, given the
> complexity of those tiny honeycomb partitions in the ethmoids.

I also have the complication of wierdly thick/dense bones that
radiologists don't know what to make of.

>>> The more recent studies haven't been encouraging either (though this
>>> abstract alone doesn't specify the actual percentages):
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Get a second opinion.

I'm kind of overwhelmed with the main problem, additional testing for
Cushing's to get surgery approved for the likely pituitary tumor on my
MRI, trying to aggressively treat active Lyme arhtropathy in my right
ankle and CNS, and I have never had any luck finding a competent ENT
here in my area.

> In my experience, the best ENTs will diagnose based on the full range of
>  data, ESPECIALLY a detailed patient history and symptomatology.  My
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> You need to find one of *those* ENTs for a second opinion.

I can't.  I tried.

> It might be worth purchasing this paper for reference:
> http://tinyurl.com/36xbrr

Thanks.  I'd buy it if the page for all my personal info were encrypted.
 :-/

> Like I said, the results are not encouraging.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> type of culture where the pus is sampled at the sinus ostia.  And if
> there's no visible pus to sample, then they can't do that type of culture.

Is that the middle meatus?  That's all he said he would do.

Susan
judy.n - 27 Jun 2007 00:58 GMT
Susan,
 Sorry I haven't had time to look for the data on the sensitivity and
specificity of sinus CT: anecdotally, my ENT ALWAYS requests the
images--he feels the radiologists don't report the information that is
important to him.
 As Elizabeth has said, biofilms won't necessarily show on a CT, yet
they clearly can cause chronic, resistant sinusitis.
 The culture of the middle meatus, is just swabbing the ostea.
 I could see how at this point, your pituitary adenoma is the most
important issue. I hope it can be resolved noninvasively.
Judy

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 27 Jun 2007 02:54 GMT
> Susan,
>   Sorry I haven't had time to look for the data on the sensitivity and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>   I could see how at this point, your pituitary adenoma is the most
> important issue. I hope it can be resolved noninvasively.

Judy, I've had a few lessons in recent months on the lack of
trustworthiness of radiologist readings.  The key is to always ask a
surgeon to take a second look.  Radiology ignored evidence of my
probable pituitary tumor, too.

Once I've had more testing, I'll likely end up with a transnasal or
transsphenoidal surgery on the pituitary. Kind of critical to get my
sinuses treated effectively before that, eh?

Susan
Susan - 26 Jun 2007 21:17 GMT
> It might be worth purchasing this paper for reference:
> http://tinyurl.com/36xbrr
>
> Like I said, the results are not encouraging.

Okay, I purchased it.  Anyone who'd like a PDF copy, let me know and
I'll email it.

Susan
truehawk - 26 Jun 2007 21:35 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Susan

Susan :

I would love a PDF copy.

I have long been convinced that the CT scan is not very sensitive or
specific, but I had not been able to find a paper on the subject.

Good luck even getting you ENT to look at it.

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