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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / May 2007

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Surgery

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holliadams@gmail.com - 05 May 2007 15:04 GMT
I have had chronic sinus problems for almost 10 years. I also have
severe allergies so they both go hand in hand.
My ENT has recommended that I have sinus surgery next month and then
start allergy shots.
So I called the billing department yesterday and found out this
surgery costs $20,000. My deductible is $3000 and insurance will cover
the rest.
But this just seems so ridiculous. They said the doctor's fees are
about $10,000 and then the "hospital" fees are about $10,000. Except
the doctors own the ENT hospital so really, it seems like they are
double billing.
I really do think I need surgery. I want to get healthy and feel
better. But it's so hard to trust that they are really doing what's
best for me when there is so much money involved and no guarantee that
this will really help me.
Any advice??
Susan - 05 May 2007 16:02 GMT
> I have had chronic sinus problems for almost 10 years. I also have
> severe allergies so they both go hand in hand.
> My ENT has recommended that I have sinus surgery next month and then
> start allergy shots.

You mean in 10 years no one told you to get allergy shots *before* you
require surgery???  Is there any reason the surgery is so urgent that
you cannot have the shots first??  My allergic desensitization has
reduced my sinus symptoms a very great deal.  If you get desensitized,
make sure the allergist has you on no more than a 3-6 month schedule,
longer than that and the shots are just too weak to work.  Three months
should be the goal, IME.

> So I called the billing department yesterday and found out this
> surgery costs $20,000. My deductible is $3000 and insurance will cover
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the doctors own the ENT hospital so really, it seems like they are
> double billing.

Not really, they're separate services.  But I've found medical fees to
be highly negotiable, and you should explain how high your out of pocket
is and ask for a reduction.

> I really do think I need surgery. I want to get healthy and feel
> better. But it's so hard to trust that they are really doing what's
> best for me when there is so much money involved and no guarantee that
> this will really help me.
> Any advice??

Get more opinions, including from docs who don't own surgical centers.
And get desensitized first.  Your doctor's suggestion makes no sense to me.

Susan
holliadams@gmail.com - 05 May 2007 16:27 GMT
Susan,
Thanks for your response.
I have been on every allergy medicine there is and some of them have
helped a bit but I don't want to be on meds the rest of my life. I was
told to get allergy shots a few years ago but we were getting ready to
move out of state so I decided to hold off. Then we moved and I didn't
have good insurance. We just moved again and are more settled now so
that's why I've decided to start dealing with my sinus issues now. I
was also told several years ago that I needed sinus surgery but again,
because of our move, I didn't follow through.
All of the ENT's in my town belong to this group...ENT Associates.
They own their own clinics/hospitals. So anyone I would be referred to
for a 2nd opinion would still be within this group.
I was told the allergy shots would take at least 9 months before I
noticed a difference. And after that I would need to be on them for
2-3 years! I am willing to do this but it just seems so long in order
to feel better. Plus, I'm wanting to get pregnant in the next year or
so and don't want to be sick the whole time!
I guess the reason the surgery seems "urgent" is that I've already
spent so much $$ on CT scans, allergy tests, etc. that I'd rather go
ahead and get it all done this year in order to capitalize on my
deductable. Does that make sense?
Susan - 05 May 2007 16:34 GMT
> Susan,
> Thanks for your response.
> I have been on every allergy medicine there is and some of them have
> helped a bit but I don't want to be on meds the rest of my life.

I fully understand.  Desensitization reduces the need for meds.  Also,
this group has always had many posters post op FESS, having had multiple
surgeries, even, who still need all sorts of meds.  The surgery is not a
 panacea, particularly if the cause of the inflammation/infections is
not ameliorated too.

 I was
> told to get allergy shots a few years ago but we were getting ready to
> move out of state so I decided to hold off. Then we moved and I didn't
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> They own their own clinics/hospitals. So anyone I would be referred to
> for a 2nd opinion would still be within this group.

Can you leave town for a city for an opinion?  I just traveled across
the U.S. to find a competent endocrinologist for a complex diagnosis.

> I was told the allergy shots would take at least 9 months before I
> noticed a difference.

Only if you go to a really crappy allergist.  I got relief from my first
 shots on.  Completely onto my maintenance schedule after three months
with miraculous and continuing improvements on maintenance.  You need to
find a better allergist.

 And after that I would need to be on them for
> 2-3 years!

So what?  If you needed insulin for diabetes, would that be too much
trouble?

I am willing to do this but it just seems so long in order
> to feel better. Plus, I'm wanting to get pregnant in the next year or
> so and don't want to be sick the whole time!
> I guess the reason the surgery seems "urgent" is that I've already
> spent so much $$ on CT scans, allergy tests, etc. that I'd rather go
> ahead and get it all done this year in order to capitalize on my
> deductable. Does that make sense?

The surgery may or may not help you.  If you are still severely allergic
after your surgery, I believe the odds may well be against improvement.

Your body, your decisions.

Susan
Neil Brooks - 05 May 2007 16:52 GMT
>>I am willing to do this but it just seems so long in order
>> to feel better. Plus, I'm wanting to get pregnant in the next year or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> ahead and get it all done this year in order to capitalize on my
>> deductable. Does that make sense?

>The surgery may or may not help you.  If you are still severely allergic
>after your surgery, I believe the odds may well be against improvement.
>
>Your body, your decisions.

In my experience, the first surgery ... without addressing underlying
allergies appropriately ... made my sinus situation MUCH worse.

More airflow = more allergens entering my sinuses and my body.

Made sense ... after the fact.  

If I had it to do over again, I'd be following Susan on this one:
address the underlying problem or you may make yourself WORSE.

Best of luck!

Neil
Rick B. - 06 May 2007 18:19 GMT
>Susan,
>Thanks for your response.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>was also told several years ago that I needed sinus surgery but again,
>because of our move, I didn't follow through.

You need to follow through.  I was told to have right ethmoid sinus
surgery.  I got a second opinion from another ENT.  After tests (and
better prepping), he said I didn't.  He said go to an allergist.

I did and got tested. I'm really bad for all kinds of mold.  I had to
get not one, but two shots (one just for mold) twice a week for about
6 months.  Now I'm much better.  

Yeah, getting the shots is a pain (no pun intended.)  I had to leave
work from downtown Houston just to get to my allergist, who thankfully
was open late twice a week.  I came to refer to his tiny waiting room
as "the zoo" because of the bratty kids that ran around.  To sign in,
wait to get called, get the shots, wait 20 minutes to see if there's a
reaction wasn't pleasant.  Big deal.  It was worth every second of it.

Now I'm on once a month maintenance.  I may be on them for 2-3 years.
Big deal again.

It's your body, do what you want, but unless there's something drastic
happening in your sinus cavities, it's just plain crazy to me to have
surgery BEFORE allergies.  Go to another ENT, go to an allergist, then
report back here.

Remember, once they cut, they can't un-cut.

Rick
Susan - 06 May 2007 18:36 GMT
> I did and got tested. I'm really bad for all kinds of mold.  I had to
> get not one, but two shots (one just for mold) twice a week for about
> 6 months.  Now I'm much better.  

I get one shot with all my antigens, including 8 molds, IIRC.

> Yeah, getting the shots is a pain (no pun intended.)  I had to leave
> work from downtown Houston just to get to my allergist, who thankfully
> was open late twice a week.  I came to refer to his tiny waiting room
> as "the zoo" because of the bratty kids that ran around.  To sign in,
> wait to get called, get the shots, wait 20 minutes to see if there's a
> reaction wasn't pleasant.  Big deal.  It was worth every second of it.

I only had to go for the first 12 shots.  Now I'm retested twice per
year, and he mails my serum to me whenever I run out.  I inject at home.

Susan
holliadams@gmail.com - 08 May 2007 12:54 GMT
Thanks to everyone for all your help and advice.

You've given me a lot to think about! I'll keep you posted about what
happens and I'll probably be back with lots of questions! :)

Holli
Steven L. - 05 May 2007 18:41 GMT
> I have had chronic sinus problems for almost 10 years. I also have
> severe allergies so they both go hand in hand.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the doctors own the ENT hospital so really, it seems like they are
> double billing.

First of all, it's not "double billing."  It's no different than any
other small business that is run as an employee-owned corporation.  The
employees wear two hats:  They are paid a salary out of the
corporation's revenue but they also make the corporate decisions to run
the place.  Their fees to their clients are still comparable to the fees
of their competitors because that's set by market forces.

Secondly, $20,000 does not sound that excessive to me.  The exact cost
depends on the amount of surgery that needs to be done.  My 2nd surgery
cost me $14,000 by the time everybody, including the anesthesiologist,
got paid off, and that was just a revision surgery.

If you have a social conscience, you might call your insurance company
and offer them the following "win-win" deal:

If you can find a cheaper hospital to get the surgery done for less than
$20,000, will the insurance company split the cost saving with you?
That is, suppose you did some research and found another hospital that
could do the surgery for $14,000, a saving of $6,000.  How about you and
your insurance company split the saving:  Your insurance company saves
$3,000, and YOU save $3,000 too (meaning you don't have to pay a
deductible)?  Your time is worth something too, yes?  If your insurance
company says "yes" to this win-win deal, you're golden.  I'll bet they
won't though--and then you can truly say to them "Pay the full $17,000
for my surgery and be damned."  Then your conscience is clear!

Thirdly, I must disagree with Susan about the allergy shots.  There are
no hard-and-fast rules, and it depends what your ENT found.  It is
certainly true that aggressive treatment of allergies can help prevent
the inflammation and swelling that can exacerbate sinusitis.  But once
you get into this vicious cycle of chronic infection leading to
inflammation and swelling leading to more sinus blockage leading to more
chronic infection, then NOTHING can break that cycle except steroids (if
you're lucky) or surgery (if you're not lucky).  If you get a pus-filled
mucocele that starts growing and blocking the sinus, for example, you're
really screwed and nothing but surgery can fix it.

Your ENT must believe you're past the point that allergy shots alone can
help, until after the sinuses are physically repaired.  Makes sense to
me, though you didn't say what your ENT found from your CT scan and
endoscopy when he tested you.  Just what did he find was wrong with your
sinuses?

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Susan - 05 May 2007 18:56 GMT
> Thirdly, I must disagree with Susan about the allergy shots.

Then you must disgree with Neil about his surgical experience and
allergy shots.

  There are
> no hard-and-fast rules, and it depends what your ENT found.  It is
> certainly true that aggressive treatment of allergies can help prevent
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> mucocele that starts growing and blocking the sinus, for example, you're
> really screwed and nothing but surgery can fix it.

This is backwards thinking.  Unless there is an extremely urgent need
for immediate surgery that the OP hasn't discussed, to leave the
inflammation that's causing chronic swelling and inflammation in place
during and post op is just stupid.  It guarantees a less than favorable
outcome.  If someone hasn't got an urgent need for immediate surgical
intervention, a few months of strong desensitization may be the diff
between successful surgery or unsuccessful.

> Your ENT must believe you're past the point that allergy shots alone can
> help, until after the sinuses are physically repaired.  Makes sense to
> me, though you didn't say what your ENT found from your CT scan and
> endoscopy when he tested you.  Just what did he find was wrong with your
> sinuses?

Or the ENT may just be in a hurry for no good reason, hence the recco
for second opinions, other than the internet variety.  :-)

Susan
judy.n - 05 May 2007 19:38 GMT
Just reguarding the cost of the surgery--it's very scary that the
ENT's control the entire town and the hospitals. My local ENT tells me
he gets reimbursed around $300 for an out-pt FESS. I know that when I
had a surgery in Boston, the ENT charged Blue Cross $18,000 in 2000. I
used to work in insurance, and the issue for patients is that you pay
retail--including any co-payment (like a 20%), while the provider
agrees by contract to a reduced/contracted rate. There was a large
class action law suit against United Health for the coinsurance--when
patients did the math, they realized their 20% copay was closer to 50%
of the total reimbursement, or even more.
 There are anti-trust laws against kick backs in medicine, but when
you own the hospitals, you can set the rates.
 So, the price is on the high end, and there is no competition.

 Whether or not you should have the surgery is another issue
completely. Personally, I've had 5 surgeries and I have no idea if
they've helped--I know the expensive one in 2000 caused a bone
infection and made me very ill for a year, and then I had to have two
additional surgeries to correct that one--and it was the one done by
the "national expert" in Boston. My local ENT, who I really trust,
tells me that the current thinking is that less is more--try not to
disturb the anatomy as much as possible, and realize that the
structures within the nose serve a purpose, to filter and humidify
air.

 My daughter has IgA deficiency and was very ill with constant
infections: two surgeons offered to operate on her--a physician at
Lahey clinic told her she would be cured, and our local ENT told her
that with her underlying immunodeficiency he could offer no guarantees
that a "perfect CT" would translate into less infections. She went the
route of low dose biaxin, allergy shots, a lower dose birth control
pill--and has had no infections for almost a year. That's the longest
she's gone in a long time.

 Our allergist has us get the shots twice a week to get to
maintenance in about 4 months, and both of us responded to the shots
very quickly.

 So, I'd be concerned about a town where there is essentially one ENT
group and no competition and no ability for true second opinions.

  One last story, I worked with a medical resident whose wife was
scheduled for sinus surgery: it was cancelled due to a strep
infection, and I told him about the neti pot. She bought one, and her
sinusitis episodes resolved to the point where she no longer felt the
need for surgery.

 So, there is no one answer. Surgery is irreversible, and in my
experience, if you go to several ENT's, you'll find several approaches
will be recommended. Which is the right one? It's a judgment call.

Judy

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Susan
august - 05 May 2007 19:45 GMT
>I have had chronic sinus problems for almost 10 years. I also have
> severe allergies so they both go hand in hand.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> this will really help me.
> Any advice??

I'd try the desensitization shots for at least a year (through two allergy
cycles) prior to doing any surgery. While I saw some improvement from the
shots within six months it was only after additional mold serum was added to
my shots and this addional regimen had time to work before I got full
benefit from my allergy shots. I now do maintenance shots every three weeks.
I considered surgery several times but am glad I held off.     AW
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 05 May 2007 20:28 GMT
holliadams@gmail.com wrote:

>I have had chronic sinus problems for almost
> 10 years. I also have severe allergies so they
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Any advice??

Yeah...  Move up to Canada, here.  ...You might have to wait a year for
the surgery, but at least it's free.   ...Jon
Ghamph - 05 May 2007 20:38 GMT
I can relate to your dilemma.  I keep thinking about trying to whittle down
my own polyps myself , because I know how costly doctors and hospitals are ,
only to have polyps grow back in months or years.  I might be better off
investing in a tool or two for a few hundred than spend a few thousand over
and over for professionals.
Jamffer
> I have had chronic sinus problems for almost 10 years. I also have
> severe allergies so they both go hand in hand.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> this will really help me.
> Any advice??
 
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