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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / April 2007Neil- See if you can get a Gallium Scan, it is a two-fer
Seems that a Gallium scan not makes infected areas visable on X-Ray, gallium acutally kills the bugs because they try to use it as iron. http://uwnews.washington.edu/ni/article.asp?articleID=31337 "Iron is critical for the growth of bacteria and for their ability to form biofilms, slime-encased colonies of microbes that cause many chronic infections. "Because iron is so important in infection, we thought infecting bacteria might be vulnerable to interventions that target iron," explained Yukihiro Kaneko, senior fellow in microbiology at the UW and the study's lead author. To accomplish this, the researchers used gallium, a metal very similar to iron. "Gallium acts as a Trojan horse to iron-seeking bacteria," said Singh. "Because gallium looks like iron, invading bacteria are tricked, in a way, into taking it up. Unfortunately for the bacteria, gallium can't function like iron once it's inside bacterial cells." The researchers showed that gallium killed microbes, and prevented the formation of biofilms. Importantly, gallium's action was intensified in low iron condition, like those that exist in the human body. Gallium was even effective against strains of Pseudomonas aeruginosa from cystic fibrosis patients that were resistant to multiple antibiotics. In mice, gallium treatment blocked both chronic and acute infections caused by this bacterium. " On second thought better to put the contrast agent in your nasal spray. It is funny United States Patent 7119217 covers the treatment of inflammatory and autoimmune disease with Gallium salts, but they forgot that they immune system is usually responding to infection. It never occured to them that macrophages take up gallium by eating bacteria that have taken in up. So they did not patent the use of Gallium nitrate for use to treat infection. There have been medwatch alerts about gadolinium MRI contrast and nephrosclerosis, and I got the two confused: when I googled, gallium and antibiotic I found this: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-03/uoc-urd031507.php Probably the same article you were quoting. It looks promising. They do gallium scans as well in nuclear medicine. Judy > It is funny United States Patent 7119217 covers the treatment of > inflammatory and autoimmune disease with Gallium salts, but they > forgot that they immune system is usually responding to infection. It > never occured to them that macrophages take up gallium by eating > bacteria that have taken in up. So they did not patent the use of > Gallium nitrate for use to treat infection. > There have been medwatch alerts about gadolinium MRI contrast and > nephrosclerosis, and I got the two confused: when I googled, gallium Judy How much Gallium is too much Gallium? I was more thinking of useing it in nasal spray and wash. I am not sure at what dose causes gallium intoxication becomes a danger. As a horse medicine it works wonders. http://george-eby-research.com/html/arthritis.html I also know that Titian is in phase I trials of Gallium Maltolate as an anticancer drug. Also I have always thought that using Gallium contrast agent would be just the thing to identify sinus infections on x-ray because the bacteria have such an affinity for iron and iron-like metals. How much Gallium is too much Gallium? I am not sure at what dose gallium intoxication becomes a danger. I was more thinking of useing it in nasal spray and wash, and if the systemic bioavilableity is low so much the better, the fewer organs to have to worry about. As a horse medicine it works wonders. http://george-eby-research.com/html/arthritis.html I also know that Titian is in phase I trials of Gallium Maltolate as an anticancer drug. Also I have always thought that using Gallium contrast agent would be just the thing to identify sinus infections on x-ray because the bacteria have such an affinity for iron and iron-like metals. > There have been medwatch alerts about gadolinium MRI contrast and > nephrosclerosis, and I got the two confused: when I googled, gallium [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > bacteria that have taken in up. So they did not patent the use of > > Gallium nitrate for use to treat infection. Thanks Judy and Truehawk. Thanks much. Can't muster the reading today (da**ed eyes), but will asap. This, of course, leads me to another question: with all of this, are there any helpful hints on how to approach the doc? I've been dealing with doctors all my life. I'm not BAD at this, but ... I've certainly learned that you have to come across as intelligent, credible, informed, and focused, not desperate I've also learned that some docs will take input from a Pt and some won't, no matter what your presentation style. I'm looking to get my ENT to explore other alternative etiologies that better fit ALL the symptoms. >From my perspective, I need to ask for the FEWEST specific things that I can. Right now, I'm looking for imaging--be it CT, bone scan, MRI, Gallium, ... ?? Whatever. Not necessarily one in favor of another. However many it takes to get useful, actionable information. If the imaging leads to a solid Dx and Tx, then I'm golden. If it doesn't, then I'm likely to push for a second thing: IV antibiotics AND IV antifungals. I'm thinking of asking for THIS second, rather than complex cultures, biopsies, etc., on the assumption that THOSE labs are not likely to drive a different course of treatment. The antimicrobial cocktail seems to address a multitude of sins. It also simplifies my efforts to re-balance my gut. It's not easy working around a tid pill regimen. It'd be much easier to hit the IV for a period, then rebuild from there. Sound valid? I'm fortunate to have reasonable insurance. I'm not afraid of IV antimicrobials. The data do seem to support that there "are more things in heaven, earth, and chronic sinus disease than are dreamt of in your philosophy," some of which CAN be treated with IV anti-bug- juice. In pursuing my primary eye issues, I was all over the country. I finally developed my theory of the case. The one who believed me ... fixed me (severe ciliary spasm). The rest suffered from powerful medical prejudice that led them to believe, immutably, that certain things DO and DO NOT happen, regardless of how well the evidence fit the Dx. Any sage advice (Judy?) on how best to ask a top specialist to follow YOUR advice on diagnostic and treatment options?? Anybody think IV antibiotics and antifungals are a whole lot riskier than I'm making them sound?? Thanks again! Neil Read the article I just posted Mel >> There have been medwatch alerts about gadolinium MRI contrast and >> nephrosclerosis, and I got the two confused: when I googled, gallium [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > Thanks again! > Neil > Read the article I just posted > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >> do gallium scans as well in nuclear medicine. > >> Judy Yeah! Gallium is like Atomic Number 31, right next to zink? http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/ga.html Gadolinium is a whole other element Atomic number 64. http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/gd.html Neil, Unfortunately, it's difficult to get some specialists to work with you like a team, and to listen, and to think outside their particular box or belief system. If you read some of the medical blogs, you'll find that academic medicine is full of conflict of interests due to funding issues, as well--just to add to the complexity. I find that the "best" specialist is humble, able to admit that they don't know everything, doesn't think in absolutes, and is willing to revisit a problem if the initial solution doesn't work. I don't trust people who tell me they have the answer, or they know something with absolute certainty. There is no absolute when it comes to individuals and to difficult problems. I wish I could give you better advice, but go with your gut feeling about how you are treated. Also, I want any specialist to consider me a long term patient, not just a quick consult and/or surgery, with no further responsibility. Having another person to witness and advocate for you always helps. Judy On Mar 19, 12:02 pm, neil0...@yahoo.com wrote: > > There have been medwatch alerts about gadolinium MRI contrast and > > nephrosclerosis, and I got the two confused: when I googled, gallium [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > Thanks again! > Neil > Neil, > Unfortunately, it's difficult to get some specialists to work with [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > further responsibility. > Having another person to witness and advocate for you always helps. Thanks, Judy. In my experience, the "best" docs love to solve puzzles. The thicker it gets, the more they dig in (The mythical Dr. House, from television). I've found a few like that. I just don't think you can convert one who isn't naturally intellectually curious into one who is. Finding one isn't easy. Getting in to SEE them is much tougher ;-) And ... as to "medical prejudice:" I ran up against that for a decade with my eyes ("can't happen," "doesn't happen," "never happens in immunocompetent people," etc. etc.). You're right: absolutes from an MD should be a red flag to a Pt. Thanks again. I completely agree about how really good doctors don't get frustrated with complexity, they get interested. I adore my ENT, and he has always been willing to hang in there with me and he'll puzzle out loud ( a little disconcerting if it's about a potential surgery...) He sees a lot of my patients, and they adore him as well. He doesn't jump to surgery, but will puzzle out a vertigo case, and find the underlying migraine. He'll treat immunodeficiencies. He'll clean up messes made by other people, and he'll call back promptly and discuss things. Also, my allergist, who is drifting into retirement, unfortunately. When we worked at the now defunct HMO, they would add another phlebotomist in the lab when he was working. Lots of specialists in a staff model HMO would refuse to take any responsibility for the patients you referred. He would not only take responsibility for the asthma issues, he'd go over their entire body and concerns, work them up, and find the obscure problem. Once, I called him on his cell when my daughter was sick. He was across the country, waiting for his sister in law to get out of surgery. I apologized, but he said "I have time, tell me about it." Another retired physician, the former head of head and neck surgery at Mass Eye and Ear, Richard Fabian, not only did a technically complex surgery on my husband, but gave us his home number when he found a resident hadn't returned a call promptly. And, hung in there when the complication was unusual. The doctor who took over his practice, Derrick Lin, is just as responsive. So, great doctors are in the community and at tertiary care centers, but IMO they are unfortunately in the minority. I completely agree with you that you can't convert someone, who doesn't have that basic instinct of true concern and intellectual curiosity. Currently, I'm teaching a course with first and second year medical students, to introduce them to clinical medicine. It's called "Doctoring". Maybe we can start them out right.... Judy On Mar 28, 11:42 am, neil0...@yahoo.com wrote: > > Neil, > > Unfortunately, it's difficult to get some specialists to work with [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Thanks again. Judy wrote: > I completely agree about how really good doctors don't get frustrated > with complexity, they get interested. I love that you're with us AND "one of us," Dr. Judy. Reminds me just a touch (poignantly) of that William Hurt movie, "The Doctor." > I adore my ENT, and he has always been willing to hang in there with > me and he'll puzzle out loud ( a little disconcerting if it's about a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > immunodeficiencies. He'll clean up messes made by other people, and > he'll call back promptly and discuss things. How's the notion of cloning coming? ;-) > Also, my allergist, who is drifting into retirement, unfortunately. > When we worked at the now defunct HMO, they would add another [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > when the complication was unusual. The doctor who took over his > practice, Derrick Lin, is just as responsive. I'm welling up. I've only found one like the crop you describe ... in my 25+ year search for ophthalmologic answers. I finally /gave/ this guy the Dx, he trusted me enough to treat, and I got better. He listened and he educated me. The partnership was novel and satisfying. Unfortunately, I 'blinked' ... and the eye drops did this massive amount of damage to my eyes (likely my sinuses, too) via the BAK. I'm genuinely happy for you that your support village (at least now) comprises such bright, caring, committed docs. Hope you don't need 'em ;-) > So, great doctors are in the community and at tertiary care centers, > but IMO they are unfortunately in the minority. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > students, to introduce them to clinical medicine. It's called > "Doctoring". Maybe we can start them out right.... Do you have a link to a syllabus for that course? That's an incredible sounding notion--one about which I'd like to read more. Incidentally, I had my app't with Dr. Davidson (UC San Diego) today. He wants to move stepwise, so ... stay on the Amoxi @ 250mg tid, and have a CT. Based on that (Steven: I'm acutely aware of the false negative numbers you've quoted and already preparing to surmount that hurdle if it arises, so ... thanks!), we'll decide what's next. Davidson's: - a subscriber to the biofilm notion, but says they've "found no way to kill them yet" - NOT a believer in the notion of chronic osteomyelitis in cases like mine, saying "That's Mayo's thing." - A believer that pulsatile bid IS better than the squeeze bottle bid (there's a freebie for ya', Dr. Grossan!). I still firmly trust the guy, though ... he couldn't CLEP out of Dr. Judy's "Doctoring" course ;-) On Apr 11, 12:12 am, neil0...@yahoo.com wrote: > Judy wrote: > > I completely agree about how really good doctors don't get frustrated [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Snaps fingers: EDTA EDTA is a kind of non-toxic polymer-vinegar molecule that latches onto dissolved metals and calcium. If you need to use EDTA in industral processes it is a real pain because it is one of those chemicals that you have to declare if you are going to use it and they won't let a plant that uses EDTA dump the effulent into the sewer because EDTA is HE doublehockysticks on the biofilm. My experience is that oral EDTA worked superbly to cure a friend with kidney stones. You can buy food grade EDTA in capsules. The Doctoring course is the current vogue at several medical schools, it's an attempt to bridge the first couple of years where the students sit in anatomy lectures, to the the final two years when they do clinical medicine: we teach in pairs--and MD and a psychologist, and work on interviewing and physical diagnosis, and concepts about listening and being a patient and a doctor. And, they spend time with actual doctors. It's a great idea. Unfortunately, as in all universities, there are politics and disorganization. The students are great, the course can be a mess at times. I do feel like it's my chance to reach the students early and clue them into how patients experience illness and physician encounters. When you talked about my supportive doctors, I always feel like if they start to retire, I'm up a creek... Good luck with Dr. Davidson. He compares the pulsatile to the squeeze bottle--but what about the neti pot? Interesting about EDTA--ever since I had a pseudomonas osteomyelitis--and it was definite, not a Mayo thing--I've put some vinegar in my neti rinse mix. I just came from a two day conference, and there was a lecture on resistant bacteria that was deeply disturbing. Some organisms have become resistant to all antibiotics. The infectious disease lecturer talked about abandoning hospitals that begin to harbor the completely resistant organisms. He talked about all the resistant bacteria in the community and the hospitals. It was scary stuff. Especially for those of us who have gotten bad infections. I do think alternative approaches will be the key to future: disrupting biofilms, novel antibiotics/antimicrobials. We just have to hope they get here in time. Judy On Apr 11, 12:12 am, neil0...@yahoo.com wrote: > Judy wrote: > > I completely agree about how really good doctors don't get frustrated [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > I still firmly trust the guy, though ... he couldn't CLEP out of Dr. > Judy's "Doctoring" course ;-) On 4/13/07 5:10 PM, in article 1176509406.937752.178550@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com, "judy.n" > Good luck with Dr. Davidson. He compares the pulsatile to the > squeeze bottle- Dr Davidson pioneered the science of adding antibiotics to pulsatile irrigation. His work has had a major impact on CF patients, clearing their sinus condition so they could have pulmonary surgery |
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