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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2007

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Alternative/complementary

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neil0502@yahoo.com - 16 Mar 2007 21:14 GMT
I back-slid last night and had an awful night's sleep as a result.

Did a quick search of the forum.  The best concentration of info was
in the FAQ, but it's awfully general.

I'm a huge believer in the scientific method ... except when it's not
helping me ;-)

My ?: anybody--having done a reasonable amount of reading, anecdotal
evidence, etc.--have a good feeling about any alternative, or
complementary treatments?

The age-old notion of "systemic yeast infection" or "leaky gut
syndrome" may not have been too far off here ... for some of us.
Western med seems to be coming around that way, slowly.

We talk about yogurt.  Seems like an unqualified good thing.  Because
I'm on three abx now, I'm also trying kefir.  Probiotics, generally,
seem to hold up quite well under PubMed scrutiny (using "complementary
medicine" as a limiter).  They seem to battle fungi fairly
effectively.

What about other "root cause" approaches?  ISTR that Eastern medicine
postulates that all allergies are a sign of "sluggish or congested
liver."  Treatments included sun, steam/sauna, pure water, copious
amt's of herbal tea, detoxifying diets, etc.

None of /that/ sounds too off-the-wall to me ... or too dangerous ...
or too expensive.

But what else?  Anybody doing anything along those lines that they
feel good about?  I know Susan's offered:

>Not just sugar and refined flour; any starch, whether whole grain or
>not, will feed the fungal beasts.  Have you ever had your post meal
>blood glucose tested, like one hour after eating?  Try replacing starch
>in your diet with fibrous and colorful veggies.  Your nutrition will be
>much better, and you may have significant reduction in your fungal load.

Again, sounds like no risk, some reward opportunity here.  I'm open to
others ... regardless of whether or not they've ever been subjected to
randomized, controlled, multi-center, double-blind testing.

TIA,
Neil
Susan - 16 Mar 2007 21:47 GMT
> Again, sounds like no risk, some reward opportunity here.  I'm open to
> others ... regardless of whether or not they've ever been subjected to
> randomized, controlled, multi-center, double-blind testing.

Neil, I think open mindedness is a good thing, as long as it's not so
open that your brains fall out.  :-)

That said, I think the basics should be covered first.  Home hygiene (or
office, for that matter) wrt allergens and potential irritants should be
addressed.  Personal health, reducing or dc'ing any potentially
immunosuppressive meds, including steroid sprays, then using them on a
schedule less likely to cause continued suppression (a.m. use only,
every other day only) and nutrition, etc.

I believe that everyone's immunity, not just diabetics, can be improved
by moving from a starchy diet to a leafier one with healthy fats and
proteins.

Drink a LOT of water and hot fluids, too.  Irrigate.
truehawk - 17 Mar 2007 05:19 GMT
Neil:

>But what else?  Anybody doing anything along those lines that they
>feel good about?

Your sinusitis gradually came back after you and been off Sporanox for
a while and
you have not gone back on it.

Well. If you have a scarred spot in your snoz that does not have any
cilia it is just waiting to be colonized.

My faves, I think may help you from many dozens that have some
beneficial effects.

Antidepressants cause a proliferation of new cells in the brain, so I
think that they may help regrow the
lining of your nose, and three weeks of St John's Wort will cost you
about $8.00.

There is the mystery of Pepcid OTC.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=7548148&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum


A box of 14 will cost you about $12.00.
Pepcid OTC is omeprazole, which is sold under another 20 different
names.
Omeprazole is fungicidal in acidic environment.
MUST BE USED ALONG WITH an ACIDIFER to HAVE FUNGICIDAL EFFECT.
It is not considered suitable to use an as antifungal drug for some
reason and that is the mystery, cause it is far less toxic than other
fungicidal drugs.
I guess it probably cannot be used as a systemic fungicide because it
is not well absorbed into the blood stream.
But it does not have to go through your blood stream to get to your
sinuses.
I have had good luck with holding Pepcid along with a Vitamin C
chewable in my mouth until both dissolve.
Believe me what you hold in your mouth will diffuse and penetrate into
your sinuses.
When you swallow, you loose it; so don't plan on talking to anyone for
a while.
You will feel layers of goo start to peal off. I started using Pepcid
this way on a trial basis because Sporanox, which attacks sterol
synthesis, made me tired, but Pepcid which has the azole house a
different location, acts differently.

Chewable Vitamin C
I agree with Jampher aka Gramph.
Best thing since sliced bread. Will cost about 12.00 per 150-500 mg
wafers. very good with the Pepcid.

And then there is Dannon's superb Immunity product in the dairy case.
Wonderful stuff.

Anything coconut. Coconut oil from your local Indian grocery contains
caprylic acid which fungi have a dislike for.

All this stuff is benign, tasty using it I can breathe out of both
nostrils sleep through the night, use no nasal spray,
and clean out my nose once a day.

Oh and sniff sniff, sniff, SNIFF  out the back, then blow.
I have blown my nose hard enough to embed the odd projectile in the
far wall (turned out to be a popcorn kernel), so I routinely have to
use Scott Shop Towels as hankies, and I can tell you that if your nose
is normally shaped, you just can not clear it effectively unless you
sniff most of the
crud out of the horizontal run from the back first, THEN blow to your
heart's content as far as I am concerned.
But if you blow too soon you will only fill up your ears.

I like things that are gentle, that taste good and help me feel good.
neil0502@yahoo.com - 17 Mar 2007 06:11 GMT
On Mar 16, 8:19 pm, "truehawk" <trueh...@bellsouth.net> wrote
(excerpted):
> Neil:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> a while and
> you have not gone back on it.

I do tend to agree with you.  I haven't felt as good ... in over a
decade ... as I did while on the amoxi /and/ Sporanox cocktail,
but ... who knows?  I surely don't know.  The good news is: Davidson's
a believer in the empirical stuff.  If it works, he's in favor.  Just
a bit concerned about l/t consequences of systemic antifungals.

> Well. If you have a scarred spot in your snoz that does not have any
> cilia it is just waiting to be colonized.

Starting to think the whole primary ciliary dyskinesia thing is at
work, too.  Chicken:egg.  Dunno' if it was a cause or an effect or a
bit of both.  Never /have/ had the clearance test but ... if it
doesn't drive a different course of treatment ... may not be worth
anything.

> My faves, I think may help you from many dozens that have some
> beneficial effects.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> lining of your nose, and three weeks of St John's Wort will cost you
> about $8.00.

Been there and done that (SJW).  Went to an Rx now--Cymbalta--with a
tendency to help reduce facial (my eyes and the schnoz) pain.
Benefits?  Don't think so.  But ... "safety net."

> There is the mystery of Pepcid OTC.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&...

Funny: eMedicine.com USED TO have Tagamet given as a way to improve
cell-mediated immunity to Candida, but...no more.  I did about two
months of 300mg qid, per my notes.

Good call.  I'll pick up another few boxes and give it another whirl.

> A box of 14 will cost you about $12.00.

> I have had good luck with holding Pepcid along with a Vitamin C
> chewable in my mouth until both dissolve.

Interesting.  I sort of like the acerola berry flavored chewable C
anyway ;-)

When I first got deeply into these recurrent/chronic infections, I
went to an "alternative practitioner" (probably a de-frocked MD) who
did IV C for me.  Theoretically, the body can absorb much, much more
(not a bowel tolerance issue), so I got ~35g on maybe 3-4 occasions.

I also used this guy for an IV H2O2 concoction (with buffers and some
other stuff in it).

Not expensive.  Not terribly risky (I thought).  Effective?  Who
knows.

> Chewable Vitamin C
> I agree with Jampher aka Gramph.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And then there is Dannon's superb Immunity product in the dairy case.
> Wonderful stuff.

Theoretically, I'm getting lots of the l.casei in the yogurt and (just
started) kefir, but I'll look for the DanActive on the next run out.

> Anything coconut. Coconut oil from your local Indian grocery contains
> caprylic acid which fungi have a dislike for.

Interesting.  I knew about the caprylic, and used to take capsules,
but ... only a few miles away from an Indian store.  Bound to be
cheaper, too.

> All this stuff is benign, tasty using it I can breathe out of both
> nostrils sleep through the night, use no nasal spray,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> heart's content as far as I am concerned.
> But if you blow too soon you will only fill up your ears.

Totally agree.  Don't think my NP wife is convinced (or turned on),
but ... I've held my ground that this is The Way I Must Do It.

> I like things that are gentle, that taste good and help me feel good.

Well said.  Thanks much.  More "food" for thought.

One other--potentially obvious--cayenne pepper.  I know it's an
ingredient in some spray, but ... I happen to like the taste, so ...
anything that it'll go well with (brown rice, stews, chili, etc.) gets
a liberal dose.

I'm also trekking to the gym, if only for the steam bath, a few times
a week.  Maybe 25-30 minutes in, concentrating on breathing in through
the nose.  Again: effective?  Who knows....
truehawk - 17 Mar 2007 06:34 GMT
I'm also trekking to the gym, if only for the steam bath, a few times
a week.  Maybe 25-30 minutes in, concentrating on breathing in
through
the nose.  Again: effective?  Who knows....

good thought.

Another thing to try, a good mask. One that is comfortable enough to
sleep in. You can use a scarf or hankie
to just try it out. Anyway wearing a mask traps heat and humidity. you
might try taking some of your mucus and watching how it runs at
different temperatures.

I have found that mine is a lot less viscus at higher temps, and I
found that my fungal cultures do not like to grow over the frig,
which was my 87 degree F spot.  Dimorphic beasties tend to be round at
higher temps and filiments at lower temps.

Anyway I could breath at night if I wore a mask while I was trying to
figure out what else worked.

by the way. I agree with Susan that you might want to back down on the
steroids and see how you feel.

About the pepcid.  It is only antifungal topically and in a low PH
environment, but that should not have stopped them from
packageing it with an acidifier.  i kinda think that Bayer,  just did
not want to have to deal with the associations
that surround antifungal drugs. Even if it had a med/mld of 1/300,
they still would have been in more years of tests
to make oz OTC if they had mentioned it was antifungal because Ampho
is such a bugger.
.
neil0502@yahoo.com - 21 Mar 2007 01:28 GMT
> There is the mystery of Pepcid OTC.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&...
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I have had good luck with holding Pepcid along with a Vitamin C
> chewable in my mouth until both dissolve.

Alright, I bought both and dissolved my first batch, but this one
isn't intuitively grabbing me.  Li'l help?

What I looked at said that fungi thrive in the presence of antacids,
so ... the deal is ... bring UP the acid level at the same time as you
introduce the omeprazole. and THAT, somehow, takes out the fungi in
the process??
..
The Dan-Active is yummy.  No problem adding that to the litany, too.
Thanks.
..
Also, I saw a Korean study [1] in which "99mTc-MDP bone single photon
emission computed tomography (SPECT) was studied in 43 patients
diagnosed as having chronic rhinosinusitis"

A significant percentage of them showed "significantly higher isotope
uptake than the control group."

They conclude with "Our study suggests that patients with chronic
rhinosinusitis have apparent bony involvement, and patients with more
severe bone involvement may have a poorer treatment outcome."

I'm sold on the bone scan idea, but ... Is the result found in this
study automatically indicative of some form of osteomyelitis?  Does
"apparent bony involvement" automatically indicate a course of IV
antimicrobials (since po antimicrobials penetrate bone poorly)??

Thanks again.

[1] http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2273.2002.00553.x

OR: http://tinyurl.com/2loqj8
truehawk - 21 Mar 2007 02:42 GMT
Neil;
Oz is NOT an antiacid. it is a Pma1p inhibitor which only forms at a
ph of less than 4.
I don't think there are supposed to BE any such proton pumps active in
your nose. Yours are in your stomach.
I think the only active Pma1p pumps in acid secreting cells your nose
belong to the other guys.

I know you have the eye trouble so I have pulled out the revelant bit,
and then it is shown in context below, and then there is a link to the
whole artical.

[[[Significant conversion of the pro-drug to the reactive sulfenamide
species requires a pH<4.0 (pKa omeprazole ~ 4.0) (a ph of less than 4)
with more than 99.9% of the drug being rapidly converted at pH 1-2
(Brandstrom et al., 1989a).]]]

So Oz requires a ph of 4 or less to become active.

For reference, a Sprite has a PH of about 4, I would not go below
that.

"The proton pump inhibitors omeprazole (losec), lansoprazole
(prevacid), and pantoprazole belong to the chemical family of
substituted benzimidazoles (Fig. 3), and exist as pro-drugs that need
activation for interaction with the gastric H+,K+-ATPase (Lorentzon et
al., 1997). The compounds are chemically stable weak bases at neutral
pH, and can be orally administered. The stable pro-drugs reach the
parietal cells from the blood and are transported into the strongly
acidic environment of the secretory canaliculi. Protonation of these
compounds results in extensive molecular rearrangement followed by the
formation of a positively charged, sulfenamide species that has low
permeability coefficient across membranes and reacts covalently with
free sulfhydryl group(s) on the extracellular surface of the H+,K+-
ATPase (Sachs et al., 1995). Significant conversion of the pro-drug to
the reactive sulfenamide species requires a pH<4.0 (pKa omeprazole ~
4.0) with more than 99.9% of the drug being rapidly converted at pH
1-2 (Brandstrom et al., 1989a). Unreacted sulfenamide is rapidly
hydrolyzed in the aqueous compartment (Brandstrom et al., 1989a). The
sulfenamide forms a disulfide that covalently modifies the enzyme from
its extracellular domain and inhibits it with a stoichiometry of
approximately 2 molecules of drug per a -subunit of the H+,K+-ATPase.
Inhibition by omeprazole is believed to result from covalent
modification of Cys813 (or Cys822) and Cys892 located in the
extracellular loop regions joining TM5/TM6 and TM7/TM8 (Fig. 1)
(Lorentzon et al., 1997;Shin et al., 1997). These transmembrane
segments have been implicated in ion transport by P-type enzymes
suggesting that enzyme inhibition may result from a defect in ion
translocation. Such a defect would be expected to have a pronounced
affect on ATP hydrolysis by the enzyme as is observed, since ion
translocation and ATP hydrolysis are tightly coupled in these enzymes.
Enzyme inhibition can be reversed in vitro by the addition of reducing
agents such as b -mercaptoethanol, but it is essentially irreversible
under physiological conditions. New acid secretion will only result
from biosynthesis and assembly of new enzyme, since the turnover rate
of the enzyme is ~50h (Sachs et al., 1995). Thus, the antagonistic
affects of the drugs persist long after plasma clearance, which helps
account for their therapeutic efficacy."

http://www.ejbiotechnology.info/content/vol1/issue2/full/2/index.html

Part of a paper about drug development.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=538910

Pma1p was validated as an antifungal target by demonstrating that acid-
activated omeprazole is a fungicidal Pma1p inhibitor that acts from
outside the cell (25, 37). This paper describes a drug discovery
strategy that targets Pma1p. Screening of a compact 324-pool d-
octapeptide library, which comprises 1.8 million combinatorial
pentapeptides linked to a C-terminal amidated triarginine motif, has
identified a potent, broad-spectrum, surface-active fungicidal Pma1p
inhibitor that circumvents three clinically important (43) mechanisms
of energy-dependent azole resistance. Such inhibitors may provide a
novel and timely avenue for antifungal drug discovery.
Steven L. - 17 Mar 2007 23:32 GMT
> I back-slid last night and had an awful night's sleep as a result.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> evidence, etc.--have a good feeling about any alternative, or
> complementary treatments?

The latest edition of "Sinus Survival," by Dr. Robert Ivker, is
practically the Bible of holistic treatment of chronic sinusitis.  He's
done more work on alternative treatment for sinusitis than just about
anybody else.

http://www.sinussurvival.com/

Dr. Grossan has said some nice things about Dr. Ivker in the past.

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Steven D. Litvintchouk
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