Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2007
Alternative/complementary
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neil0502@yahoo.com - 16 Mar 2007 21:14 GMT I back-slid last night and had an awful night's sleep as a result.
Did a quick search of the forum. The best concentration of info was in the FAQ, but it's awfully general.
I'm a huge believer in the scientific method ... except when it's not helping me ;-)
My ?: anybody--having done a reasonable amount of reading, anecdotal evidence, etc.--have a good feeling about any alternative, or complementary treatments?
The age-old notion of "systemic yeast infection" or "leaky gut syndrome" may not have been too far off here ... for some of us. Western med seems to be coming around that way, slowly.
We talk about yogurt. Seems like an unqualified good thing. Because I'm on three abx now, I'm also trying kefir. Probiotics, generally, seem to hold up quite well under PubMed scrutiny (using "complementary medicine" as a limiter). They seem to battle fungi fairly effectively.
What about other "root cause" approaches? ISTR that Eastern medicine postulates that all allergies are a sign of "sluggish or congested liver." Treatments included sun, steam/sauna, pure water, copious amt's of herbal tea, detoxifying diets, etc.
None of /that/ sounds too off-the-wall to me ... or too dangerous ... or too expensive.
But what else? Anybody doing anything along those lines that they feel good about? I know Susan's offered:
>Not just sugar and refined flour; any starch, whether whole grain or >not, will feed the fungal beasts. Have you ever had your post meal >blood glucose tested, like one hour after eating? Try replacing starch >in your diet with fibrous and colorful veggies. Your nutrition will be >much better, and you may have significant reduction in your fungal load. Again, sounds like no risk, some reward opportunity here. I'm open to others ... regardless of whether or not they've ever been subjected to randomized, controlled, multi-center, double-blind testing.
TIA, Neil
Susan - 16 Mar 2007 21:47 GMT > Again, sounds like no risk, some reward opportunity here. I'm open to > others ... regardless of whether or not they've ever been subjected to > randomized, controlled, multi-center, double-blind testing. Neil, I think open mindedness is a good thing, as long as it's not so open that your brains fall out. :-)
That said, I think the basics should be covered first. Home hygiene (or office, for that matter) wrt allergens and potential irritants should be addressed. Personal health, reducing or dc'ing any potentially immunosuppressive meds, including steroid sprays, then using them on a schedule less likely to cause continued suppression (a.m. use only, every other day only) and nutrition, etc.
I believe that everyone's immunity, not just diabetics, can be improved by moving from a starchy diet to a leafier one with healthy fats and proteins.
Drink a LOT of water and hot fluids, too. Irrigate.
truehawk - 17 Mar 2007 05:19 GMT Neil:
>But what else? Anybody doing anything along those lines that they >feel good about? Your sinusitis gradually came back after you and been off Sporanox for a while and you have not gone back on it.
Well. If you have a scarred spot in your snoz that does not have any cilia it is just waiting to be colonized.
My faves, I think may help you from many dozens that have some beneficial effects.
Antidepressants cause a proliferation of new cells in the brain, so I think that they may help regrow the lining of your nose, and three weeks of St John's Wort will cost you about $8.00.
There is the mystery of Pepcid OTC. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra ctPlus&list_uids=7548148&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
A box of 14 will cost you about $12.00. Pepcid OTC is omeprazole, which is sold under another 20 different names. Omeprazole is fungicidal in acidic environment. MUST BE USED ALONG WITH an ACIDIFER to HAVE FUNGICIDAL EFFECT. It is not considered suitable to use an as antifungal drug for some reason and that is the mystery, cause it is far less toxic than other fungicidal drugs. I guess it probably cannot be used as a systemic fungicide because it is not well absorbed into the blood stream. But it does not have to go through your blood stream to get to your sinuses. I have had good luck with holding Pepcid along with a Vitamin C chewable in my mouth until both dissolve. Believe me what you hold in your mouth will diffuse and penetrate into your sinuses. When you swallow, you loose it; so don't plan on talking to anyone for a while. You will feel layers of goo start to peal off. I started using Pepcid this way on a trial basis because Sporanox, which attacks sterol synthesis, made me tired, but Pepcid which has the azole house a different location, acts differently.
Chewable Vitamin C I agree with Jampher aka Gramph. Best thing since sliced bread. Will cost about 12.00 per 150-500 mg wafers. very good with the Pepcid.
And then there is Dannon's superb Immunity product in the dairy case. Wonderful stuff.
Anything coconut. Coconut oil from your local Indian grocery contains caprylic acid which fungi have a dislike for.
All this stuff is benign, tasty using it I can breathe out of both nostrils sleep through the night, use no nasal spray, and clean out my nose once a day.
Oh and sniff sniff, sniff, SNIFF out the back, then blow. I have blown my nose hard enough to embed the odd projectile in the far wall (turned out to be a popcorn kernel), so I routinely have to use Scott Shop Towels as hankies, and I can tell you that if your nose is normally shaped, you just can not clear it effectively unless you sniff most of the crud out of the horizontal run from the back first, THEN blow to your heart's content as far as I am concerned. But if you blow too soon you will only fill up your ears.
I like things that are gentle, that taste good and help me feel good.
neil0502@yahoo.com - 17 Mar 2007 06:11 GMT On Mar 16, 8:19 pm, "truehawk" <trueh...@bellsouth.net> wrote (excerpted):
> Neil: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a while and > you have not gone back on it. I do tend to agree with you. I haven't felt as good ... in over a decade ... as I did while on the amoxi /and/ Sporanox cocktail, but ... who knows? I surely don't know. The good news is: Davidson's a believer in the empirical stuff. If it works, he's in favor. Just a bit concerned about l/t consequences of systemic antifungals.
> Well. If you have a scarred spot in your snoz that does not have any > cilia it is just waiting to be colonized. Starting to think the whole primary ciliary dyskinesia thing is at work, too. Chicken:egg. Dunno' if it was a cause or an effect or a bit of both. Never /have/ had the clearance test but ... if it doesn't drive a different course of treatment ... may not be worth anything.
> My faves, I think may help you from many dozens that have some > beneficial effects. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lining of your nose, and three weeks of St John's Wort will cost you > about $8.00. Been there and done that (SJW). Went to an Rx now--Cymbalta--with a tendency to help reduce facial (my eyes and the schnoz) pain. Benefits? Don't think so. But ... "safety net."
> There is the mystery of Pepcid OTC.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&... Funny: eMedicine.com USED TO have Tagamet given as a way to improve cell-mediated immunity to Candida, but...no more. I did about two months of 300mg qid, per my notes.
Good call. I'll pick up another few boxes and give it another whirl.
> A box of 14 will cost you about $12.00.
> I have had good luck with holding Pepcid along with a Vitamin C > chewable in my mouth until both dissolve. Interesting. I sort of like the acerola berry flavored chewable C anyway ;-)
When I first got deeply into these recurrent/chronic infections, I went to an "alternative practitioner" (probably a de-frocked MD) who did IV C for me. Theoretically, the body can absorb much, much more (not a bowel tolerance issue), so I got ~35g on maybe 3-4 occasions.
I also used this guy for an IV H2O2 concoction (with buffers and some other stuff in it).
Not expensive. Not terribly risky (I thought). Effective? Who knows.
> Chewable Vitamin C > I agree with Jampher aka Gramph. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And then there is Dannon's superb Immunity product in the dairy case. > Wonderful stuff. Theoretically, I'm getting lots of the l.casei in the yogurt and (just started) kefir, but I'll look for the DanActive on the next run out.
> Anything coconut. Coconut oil from your local Indian grocery contains > caprylic acid which fungi have a dislike for. Interesting. I knew about the caprylic, and used to take capsules, but ... only a few miles away from an Indian store. Bound to be cheaper, too.
> All this stuff is benign, tasty using it I can breathe out of both > nostrils sleep through the night, use no nasal spray, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > heart's content as far as I am concerned. > But if you blow too soon you will only fill up your ears. Totally agree. Don't think my NP wife is convinced (or turned on), but ... I've held my ground that this is The Way I Must Do It.
> I like things that are gentle, that taste good and help me feel good. Well said. Thanks much. More "food" for thought.
One other--potentially obvious--cayenne pepper. I know it's an ingredient in some spray, but ... I happen to like the taste, so ... anything that it'll go well with (brown rice, stews, chili, etc.) gets a liberal dose.
I'm also trekking to the gym, if only for the steam bath, a few times a week. Maybe 25-30 minutes in, concentrating on breathing in through the nose. Again: effective? Who knows....
truehawk - 17 Mar 2007 06:34 GMT I'm also trekking to the gym, if only for the steam bath, a few times a week. Maybe 25-30 minutes in, concentrating on breathing in through the nose. Again: effective? Who knows....
good thought.
Another thing to try, a good mask. One that is comfortable enough to sleep in. You can use a scarf or hankie to just try it out. Anyway wearing a mask traps heat and humidity. you might try taking some of your mucus and watching how it runs at different temperatures.
I have found that mine is a lot less viscus at higher temps, and I found that my fungal cultures do not like to grow over the frig, which was my 87 degree F spot. Dimorphic beasties tend to be round at higher temps and filiments at lower temps.
Anyway I could breath at night if I wore a mask while I was trying to figure out what else worked.
by the way. I agree with Susan that you might want to back down on the steroids and see how you feel.
About the pepcid. It is only antifungal topically and in a low PH environment, but that should not have stopped them from packageing it with an acidifier. i kinda think that Bayer, just did not want to have to deal with the associations that surround antifungal drugs. Even if it had a med/mld of 1/300, they still would have been in more years of tests to make oz OTC if they had mentioned it was antifungal because Ampho is such a bugger. .
neil0502@yahoo.com - 21 Mar 2007 01:28 GMT > There is the mystery of Pepcid OTC.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I have had good luck with holding Pepcid along with a Vitamin C > chewable in my mouth until both dissolve. Alright, I bought both and dissolved my first batch, but this one isn't intuitively grabbing me. Li'l help?
What I looked at said that fungi thrive in the presence of antacids, so ... the deal is ... bring UP the acid level at the same time as you introduce the omeprazole. and THAT, somehow, takes out the fungi in the process?? .. The Dan-Active is yummy. No problem adding that to the litany, too. Thanks. .. Also, I saw a Korean study [1] in which "99mTc-MDP bone single photon emission computed tomography (SPECT) was studied in 43 patients diagnosed as having chronic rhinosinusitis"
A significant percentage of them showed "significantly higher isotope uptake than the control group."
They conclude with "Our study suggests that patients with chronic rhinosinusitis have apparent bony involvement, and patients with more severe bone involvement may have a poorer treatment outcome."
I'm sold on the bone scan idea, but ... Is the result found in this study automatically indicative of some form of osteomyelitis? Does "apparent bony involvement" automatically indicate a course of IV antimicrobials (since po antimicrobials penetrate bone poorly)??
Thanks again.
[1] http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2273.2002.00553.x
OR: http://tinyurl.com/2loqj8
truehawk - 21 Mar 2007 02:42 GMT Neil; Oz is NOT an antiacid. it is a Pma1p inhibitor which only forms at a ph of less than 4. I don't think there are supposed to BE any such proton pumps active in your nose. Yours are in your stomach. I think the only active Pma1p pumps in acid secreting cells your nose belong to the other guys.
I know you have the eye trouble so I have pulled out the revelant bit, and then it is shown in context below, and then there is a link to the whole artical.
[[[Significant conversion of the pro-drug to the reactive sulfenamide species requires a pH<4.0 (pKa omeprazole ~ 4.0) (a ph of less than 4) with more than 99.9% of the drug being rapidly converted at pH 1-2 (Brandstrom et al., 1989a).]]]
So Oz requires a ph of 4 or less to become active.
For reference, a Sprite has a PH of about 4, I would not go below that.
"The proton pump inhibitors omeprazole (losec), lansoprazole (prevacid), and pantoprazole belong to the chemical family of substituted benzimidazoles (Fig. 3), and exist as pro-drugs that need activation for interaction with the gastric H+,K+-ATPase (Lorentzon et al., 1997). The compounds are chemically stable weak bases at neutral pH, and can be orally administered. The stable pro-drugs reach the parietal cells from the blood and are transported into the strongly acidic environment of the secretory canaliculi. Protonation of these compounds results in extensive molecular rearrangement followed by the formation of a positively charged, sulfenamide species that has low permeability coefficient across membranes and reacts covalently with free sulfhydryl group(s) on the extracellular surface of the H+,K+- ATPase (Sachs et al., 1995). Significant conversion of the pro-drug to the reactive sulfenamide species requires a pH<4.0 (pKa omeprazole ~ 4.0) with more than 99.9% of the drug being rapidly converted at pH 1-2 (Brandstrom et al., 1989a). Unreacted sulfenamide is rapidly hydrolyzed in the aqueous compartment (Brandstrom et al., 1989a). The sulfenamide forms a disulfide that covalently modifies the enzyme from its extracellular domain and inhibits it with a stoichiometry of approximately 2 molecules of drug per a -subunit of the H+,K+-ATPase. Inhibition by omeprazole is believed to result from covalent modification of Cys813 (or Cys822) and Cys892 located in the extracellular loop regions joining TM5/TM6 and TM7/TM8 (Fig. 1) (Lorentzon et al., 1997;Shin et al., 1997). These transmembrane segments have been implicated in ion transport by P-type enzymes suggesting that enzyme inhibition may result from a defect in ion translocation. Such a defect would be expected to have a pronounced affect on ATP hydrolysis by the enzyme as is observed, since ion translocation and ATP hydrolysis are tightly coupled in these enzymes. Enzyme inhibition can be reversed in vitro by the addition of reducing agents such as b -mercaptoethanol, but it is essentially irreversible under physiological conditions. New acid secretion will only result from biosynthesis and assembly of new enzyme, since the turnover rate of the enzyme is ~50h (Sachs et al., 1995). Thus, the antagonistic affects of the drugs persist long after plasma clearance, which helps account for their therapeutic efficacy."
http://www.ejbiotechnology.info/content/vol1/issue2/full/2/index.html
Part of a paper about drug development.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=538910
Pma1p was validated as an antifungal target by demonstrating that acid- activated omeprazole is a fungicidal Pma1p inhibitor that acts from outside the cell (25, 37). This paper describes a drug discovery strategy that targets Pma1p. Screening of a compact 324-pool d- octapeptide library, which comprises 1.8 million combinatorial pentapeptides linked to a C-terminal amidated triarginine motif, has identified a potent, broad-spectrum, surface-active fungicidal Pma1p inhibitor that circumvents three clinically important (43) mechanisms of energy-dependent azole resistance. Such inhibitors may provide a novel and timely avenue for antifungal drug discovery.
Steven L. - 17 Mar 2007 23:32 GMT > I back-slid last night and had an awful night's sleep as a result. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > evidence, etc.--have a good feeling about any alternative, or > complementary treatments? The latest edition of "Sinus Survival," by Dr. Robert Ivker, is practically the Bible of holistic treatment of chronic sinusitis. He's done more work on alternative treatment for sinusitis than just about anybody else.
http://www.sinussurvival.com/
Dr. Grossan has said some nice things about Dr. Ivker in the past.
 Signature Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
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