Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2007
Fourth course of anti-biotics about to begin - alternative treatments ??
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atkin11j@yahoo.com - 12 Mar 2007 20:12 GMT I am going on month three with a sinus infection. Dr. has put me an cephlex, levaquin and today he is going to try zpac. No real congestion issues, minor pain. I have been irrigating. Any other ideas?
I am also a diabetic which doesn't help th situation out.
Derek.-
Susan - 12 Mar 2007 20:30 GMT > I am going on month three with a sinus infection. Dr. has put me an > cephlex, levaquin and today he is going to try zpac. No real [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Derek.- I'm type 2 DM, too. One of the most important things you can do is cut the carbs enough to keep your bg as far down into the non diabetic range as possible. Shoot for an A1c of 5% or as close to it as you can get.
High sugars suppress your immunity and high insulin levels promote inflammation.
Susan
Steven L. - 12 Mar 2007 23:16 GMT > I am going on month three with a sinus infection. Dr. has put me an > cephlex, levaquin and today he is going to try zpac. No real > congestion issues, minor pain. I have been irrigating. Any other > ideas? You need to see an ENT and get a CT scan.
 Signature Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
august - 13 Mar 2007 00:46 GMT >I am going on month three with a sinus infection. Dr. has put me an > cephlex, levaquin and today he is going to try zpac. No real [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Derek.- If the three previous coursesof antibiotics did not cure your sinus infection then it is highly doubtful that 5 days of zithromax will make any difference. See an ENT, get a CT scan of your sinuses and work out a better treatment plan against whatever is going on. Keep on irrigating. AW
truehawk - 13 Mar 2007 03:30 GMT Au Contrare Mon Ami;
See below. Also Diabetics are especially prone to fungus. Get that checked out. A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned. People who have CAT scans for other reasons often have what looks like sinus disease on the scan, but they don't have any symptoms. And the converse is true. MRIs cost about the same and may have better discrimination.
The strongest corrolation with sinus infections that last more than a month is to multispecies biofilms. (when the research has actually been done)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra ctPlus&list_uids=16826045&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum
>From personal experience those biofilms respond well ONLY to combined antibotic/antifungal/antiactinomycete treatment. Something like Zithromax, Spornaox, Bactrium, and an Omega Three-Six fatty acid supplement to help the liver process all that. And Zantac, cause the post nasal drip from the bugs will attack your stomach.
If you have only had it for three months, I think you MIGHT actually be able to get rid of it with a combo drug treatment and good probiotics like Culturell from Con Agra and Immunity from Dannon. The longer the biofilm exists though the more difficult it is to eradicate. However new antibiofilm treatments are being developed by the urologists and orthopedists, hopefully some of those treatments will eventually perk over into the ENT practice,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra ctPlus&list_uids=17254499&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum
Macrolide immunomodulation of chronic respiratory diseases.Healy DP. College of Pharmacy, University of Cincinnati Medical Center and Shriners Hospitals for Children, 3225 Eden Avenue, P.O. Box 670004, Cincinnati, OH 45267-0004, USA. daniel.healy@uc.edu.
Important immunomodulatory properties of 14- and 15-membered macrolides (((i.e. ZithroMax))) may benefit patients with respiratory diseases associated with chronic inflammation. These properties include decreased neutrophil chemotaxis and infiltration into the respiratory epithelium, inhibition of transcription factors leading to decreased proinflammatory cytokine production, downregulation of adhesion molecule expression, inhibition of microbial virulence factors including biofilm formation, reduced generation of oxygen-free radicals, enhanced neutrophil apoptosis, and decreased mucus hypersecretion with improved mucociliary clearance. Chronic, low-dose macrolides have dramatically improved survival in patients with diffuse panbronchiolitis (DPB). Given the overlap in pathogenesis between DPB and other chronic respiratory diseases, macrolides are being investigated for cystic fibrosis, asthma, chronic bronchitis, chronic sinusitis, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Preliminary data (largely from open-label trials) are promising, but conclusive results are needed.
PMID: 17254499 [PubMed - in process]
Murray Grossan - 13 Mar 2007 04:10 GMT On 3/12/07 7:30 PM, in article 1173752567.952752.268820@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com, "truehawk"
> A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned. People > who have CAT scans for other reasons often have what looks like sinus > disease It is best practice to do a cat scan to evaluate why the patient isn't responding. You look for blockage of the natural draining passages, or pan sinusitis or some sort of growth. The CAT scan is actually a short cut to treatment because you can best evaluate most effective treatment. Sometimes its a simple thing like a polyp blocking the drainage so the patient doesn't have to simply take more antiiotics. Antibiotics do have negative effects too.
MS - 13 Mar 2007 19:41 GMT > A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned. Then why do most ENTs consider a CT scan of the sinuses one of the most important diagnostic tools for sinusitis? (If they thought an MRI would offer better diagnosis, they would order that instead. But they don't order MRIs, they order CTs.)
Do you know more than the otolaryngolical (?sp) profession about sinusitis diagnosis? If you think so, how did you become so knowledgeable?
Steven L. - 14 Mar 2007 01:21 GMT >> A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned. > > Then why do most ENTs consider a CT scan of the sinuses one of the most > important diagnostic tools for sinusitis? The CT scan is the most reliable tool they have for imaging the sinuses (which are just empty spaces inside the skull). But even a CT scan isn't perfect. It seems to have about a 5-10% rate of false negatives; that is, 5-10% of the time, it fails to detect the sinus disease. This cannot be entirely due to misinterpretation by the ENT or radiologist; usually several of them agree on what the CT scan shows. It has more to do with the fact that the resolution is no better than about 4 millimeters.
 Signature Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
truehawk - 14 Mar 2007 01:57 GMT > Do you know more than the otolaryngolical (?sp) profession about sinusitis > diagnosis? If you think so, how did you become so knowledgeable? With appologies to Doc Grossian and other good ENTs who still have live cognative faculties:
By having them "practice" on me and mine, and seeing what they have done to my friends and aquintances.
By having two positive hospital lab tests for fungus but being told that it was "irrevelent". (However when I was prescribed Sproanox, I got the first uninterupted nights sleep in years.)
By realizing that they do not use the tests or the knowledge available at the waste water plant to detect 99% of the microbial life there and reading lines "but we can culture only about 650 species but we can culture the medically important bacteria". Thus what do negative cultures mean, that you sinuses are sterile even though you are running green pus, or that what is growing there does not grow under the standard culture conditions. They consider absence of evidence with evidence of health, when they intentionally do not look at most of the evidence. Yeah, like if you could only see one car out of 100, how safe would it be to cross the street? If the you could use thermal goggles to see all the cars, how reasonable would it be to refuse to use them?
By having samples from me that show a classical biofilm and having "them" refuse to consider that possibility, or order their own sample prepared without $100,000 accompanying grant money. Getting the ENTs to do the research has been like pulling eye teeth.
And friend, I was right. Go look up biofilm sinusitis in pubmed,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
Read Lusk's and Sanclement and Sanderson's papers, (and realize that it is pretty easy doing a freeze fracture sample to have the film to flake off during sample prep if you they are not careful. So some positives are lost.) and then take them to your ENT. Odds on he will not even know what you are talking about. No Halluaha Course, No "JOY at last we know what is going on." No flurry of grant applications to do further research. JUST THUD!!!!!! "now can we get back to cutting your turbinates out"? (Not just closed minded, but linked to a group mind sealed in a vault somewhere.)
(((But mention Hultgren's work to a uroligest and he will immediately know who and what you are talking about. But then uroligests don't cut parts of kidneys out too often. )))
By looking into it and finding out how mutable diagnostic criteria have been and how slipshod the studies. I challange you to find published radiological studies with a general population control group. By trying to find general population strudies of deviated septum and it's value as a predictor of sinus disease, and finding that if the work was ever done, it was not published, but to the extent it has been reported, no corrolation was shown.
By witnessing the childlike way that ENTs treat the oxygen exchange/ flow control structures in one's nose as if they are "obstructions". The polyp is usually the obstruction, and the polyp is not an "overgrowth of the lining of the sinuses" it is a biofilm. Drop some live dead stain on one and LOOK at it. A biofilm can be a quarter inch thick, generous airways do not make you immune to sinusitis. ENTs should not be allowed near a knife until they talk to some fluid flow engineers.
Medicine is an observational science.. When a part of medicine starts severely limiting it's observations it is not a science any more.
If you have a GP or ENT that does differs from the above and will treat you to get rid of the infection while trying to maintain the integrety of your nasal structures then CHERISH THEM, cause I have reasont to believe they get a lot of flac.
Ghamph - 19 Mar 2007 19:46 GMT > > Do you know more than the otolaryngolical (?sp) profession about sinusitis > > diagnosis? If you think so, how did you become so knowledgeable? [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > while trying to maintain the integrety of your nasal structures then > CHERISH THEM, cause I have reasont to believe they get a lot of flac. I totally agree with truehawk. My "former" ENT wanted to cut first and treat second. I'm going to visit an immunologist to treat the infection before I even think of cutting out anything. I get the impression that some ENTs are lazy. Or they can't pay for improvements on their summer home , on office visit fees alone. If after three visits they still haven't done a culture then something stinks. Jamffer
Murray Grossan - 14 Mar 2007 05:40 GMT On 3/13/07 11:41 AM, in article 6fCJh.1091$qe5.877@trnddc05, "MS" <ms@nospam.com> wrote:
>> A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Do you know more than the otolaryngolical (?sp) profession about sinusitis > diagnosis? If you think so, how did you become so knowledgeable? The MRI of the sinuses is of little value. It is much too sensitive to fluid, mucus and a bit of mucus lights up like bad disease. There is a terrible waste of time and money because the MRI is taken for something else and the diagnosis of sinus disease is made based on a bit of mucus in the cavity and so an unnecessary visit to the ENT to tell the patient "its nothing". Whereas a CT will tell abnormal anatomy, show details of polyps, show bone erosion, etc. An MRI might be useful in dirrentiating a fluid mass from a fungal mass, but that's it. The proper way to dx a sinus bacteria is to actually enter the sinus opening and aspirate the purulent material. A less accureate but effective way is to use the pulsatile irrigator and catch the second 200 cc of irrigation in a sterile container. This is why no ENT take MRI of the sinuses and cringe when the patient wastes a trip for explanation of the sinus diagnosis due to the MRI.
Susan - 14 Mar 2007 13:22 GMT A less accureate but effective way is
> to use the pulsatile irrigator and catch the second 200 cc of irrigation in > a sterile container. Is there a study demonstrating the effectiveness of this as a diagnostic strategy, and comparing it to others?
Susan
truehawk - 14 Mar 2007 16:13 GMT Sigh
All statements are true for a given value of "truth."
>From the Nov issue of American Family Physician Acute Bacterial Rhinosinusitis in Adults: Part I. Evaluation
DEWEY C. SCHEID, M.D., M.P.H., and ROBERT. M. HAMM, PH.D.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20041101/1685.html
Clinical Findings and Imaging Studies for Diagnosis of Acute Bacterial Rhinosinusitis
Scheid states
The sensitivity of CT is unknown because it has never been compared with sinus aspiration. Only 62 percent of patients with sinus symptoms have CT abnormalities.11 In addition, the CT scan lacks specificity. Forty-two percent of patients undergoing head CT for other reasons have sinus mucosal abnormalities,32,33 and up to 87 percent of patients with common colds have abnormalities of at least one maxillary sinus.34
There are many many problems here.
Scheid suggests "None has used the "gold standard"-culture showing at least 100,000 organisms per mL from a direct sinus aspiration."
1. culture or direct count? Especially important when 99% can't be cultured, but they still block your nose.
2. Sanderson's work, the 14/18 of the CS patients had biofilm, "The intraoperative cultures of the planktonic bacteria present in the sinuses did not correlate with the biofilms identified. " So one can have sinus aspirate that has only 10,000 organisms/ml and still have microcritter city sitting feasting nearby.
So I would think that sinus aspirate is not such a good gold standard after all.
Which would leave us with 38% of people having sinus symptoms having a negative CT scan, and the need of a good criteria to evaluate the rest against. since the present criteria arguably produces a high precentage of false negatives.
Sometime back a guy at the University of California found a frequency and contrast agent to image amyloid protein on MRIs. Now since e-coli produces a net of amyloid filiments to hold itself in place, it might be possible that MRIs could be used to image biofilms directly. Or one could use CT and a light metal such as Zn.
Note when reading Scheid's paper SENSITIVITY is the number of correct positive findings devided by (the number of correct positive findings + the number of false negative findings.)
SPECIFICITY is the number of correct negative findings devided by the number of ( false positives + the number of correct negatives)
truehawk - 14 Mar 2007 16:39 GMT And then there is this. Unilateral opacification is bad news.
[Unilateral opacification of the paranasal sinuses in CT or MRI: an indication of an uncommon histological finding][Article in German] Lehnerdt G, Weber J, Dost P. Universitats-Hals-Nasen-Ohrenklinik Essen.
BACKGROUND: Clinical and radiological differentiation between subacute or chronic sinusitis and differential pathologies such as malignoma, inverted papilloma or mycosis can be very difficult. In some cases the CT- or MRI-scan shows a unilateral opacification of the paranasal sinuses. Which histological results can be found in patients with persisting sinusitis related problems and a unilateral opacification of the paranasal sinuses in the CT- or MRI-scan? There are only a few publications on this topic. PATIENTS: In a prospective study between June 1998 and November 1999 all patients who underwent surgery in our Department for subacute or chronic sinusitis problems were included into our study group if they had a unilateral opacification of the paranasal sinuses. Thereafter, the same neuroradiologist verified the unilateral radiological findings on CT or MRI, unaware of the clinical and histological findings. Cases with a pre-existing histological examination, previous operation or injury to the paranasal system were excluded from this study. Data on clinical symptoms, radiological and histological findings were analysed. RESULTS: 43 cases with unilateral opacified paranasal sinuses were diagnosed by means of CT or MRI. These were comprised of 24 males and 19 females with an average age of 43.6 years (range 6 to 88 years). The major findings of our study were as follows: Firstly unilateral opacification of the paranasal sinuses is often (19/43 cases or 43%) associated with diseases othe than simple chronic sinusitis (8 inverted papilloma, 5 malignoma, 3 mycoses and one brown tumor, one osteoidosteoma and one haemangioma). Secondly the incidence of significant pathology other than simple chronic sinusitis rises strikingly with increasing age of the patient. For instance pathologies other than simple chronic sinusitis were found in 14% (1/7) of cases in the under 16 years group, 27% (6/22) of cases in the 16-60 years group and in 86% (10/12) of cases in the over 60 years group. Concerning clinical signs of our patients with unilateral sinus opacity 7 of 11 patients (63%) with epistaxis and 3/5 with diplopia had histological findings other than simple chronic sinusitis. In contrast unilateral rhinorrhea, unilateral nasal congestion and cephalgia were not of predictive value. CONCLUSION: Unilateral opacification of paranasal sinuses in the CT or MRI is--especially at a higher age--an indice for a neoplasm or mycotic sinusitis and therefore an early histological diagnosis or operative treatment is always suggested.
PMID: 11320876 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
truehawk - 13 Mar 2007 05:48 GMT Au Contrare Mon Ami;
See below. Also Diabetics are especially prone to fungus. Get that checked out. A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned. People who have CAT scans for other reasons often have what looks like sinus disease on the scan, but they don't have any symptoms. And the converse is true. MRIs cost about the same and may have better discrimination.
The strongest corrolation with sinus infections that last more than a month is to multispecies biofilms. (when the research has actually been done)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra ctPlus&list_uids=16826045&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum
>From personal experience those biofilms respond well ONLY to combined antibotic/antifungal/antiactinomycete treatment. Something like Zithromax, Spornaox, Bactrium, and an Omega Three-Six fatty acid supplement to help the liver process all that. And Zantac, cause the post nasal drip from the bugs will attack your stomach.
If you have only had it for three months, I think you MIGHT actually be able to get rid of it with a combo drug treatment and good probiotics like Culturell from Con Agra and Immunity from Dannon. The longer the biofilm exists though the more difficult it is to eradicate. However new antibiofilm treatments are being developed by the urologists and orthopedists, hopefully some of those treatments will eventually perk over into the ENT practice,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra ctPlus&list_uids=17254499&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum
Macrolide immunomodulation of chronic respiratory diseases.Healy DP. College of Pharmacy, University of Cincinnati Medical Center and Shriners Hospitals for Children, 3225 Eden Avenue, P.O. Box 670004, Cincinnati, OH 45267-0004, USA. daniel.healy@uc.edu.
Important immunomodulatory properties of 14- and 15-membered macrolides (((i.e. ZithroMax))) may benefit patients with respiratory diseases associated with chronic inflammation. These properties include decreased neutrophil chemotaxis and infiltration into the respiratory epithelium, inhibition of transcription factors leading to decreased proinflammatory cytokine production, downregulation of adhesion molecule expression, inhibition of microbial virulence factors including biofilm formation, reduced generation of oxygen-free radicals, enhanced neutrophil apoptosis, and decreased mucus hypersecretion with improved mucociliary clearance. Chronic, low-dose macrolides have dramatically improved survival in patients with diffuse panbronchiolitis (DPB). Given the overlap in pathogenesis between DPB and other chronic respiratory diseases, macrolides are being investigated for cystic fibrosis, asthma, chronic bronchitis, chronic sinusitis, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Preliminary data (largely from open-label trials) are promising, but conclusive results are needed.
PMID: 17254499 [PubMed - in process]
flashpoint46@yahoo.com - 13 Mar 2007 06:18 GMT Derek,
I've been using a strong xilytol nasal spay. The stronger, the better. It hasn't cured it, but helps alot. Dust and mold makes it worse.
Stan Short Stories http://stan231.freeservers.com
On Mar 12, 12:12 pm, atkin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I am going on month three with a sinus infection. Dr. has put me an > cephlex, levaquin and today he is going to try zpac. No real [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Derek.- truehawk - 13 Mar 2007 06:30 GMT 1: Curr Infect Dis Rep. 2007 Jan;9(1):7-13. Links Macrolide immunomodulation of chronic respiratory diseases.Healy DP. College of Pharmacy, University of Cincinnati Medical Center and Shriners Hospitals for Children, 3225 Eden Avenue, P.O. Box 670004, Cincinnati, OH 45267-0004, USA. daniel.healy@uc.edu.
Important immunomodulatory properties of 14- and 15-membered macrolides ((ie ZithroMax))may benefit patients with respiratory diseases associated with chronic inflammation. These properties include decreased neutrophil chemotaxis and infiltration into the respiratory epithelium, inhibition of transcription factors leading to decreased proinflammatory cytokine production, downregulation of adhesion molecule expression, inhibition of microbial virulence factors including biofilm formation, reduced generation of oxygen-free radicals, enhanced neutrophil apoptosis, and decreased mucus hypersecretion with improved mucociliary clearance. Chronic, low-dose macrolides have dramatically improved survival in patients with diffuse panbronchiolitis (DPB). Given the overlap in pathogenesis between DPB and other chronic respiratory diseases, macrolides are being investigated for cystic fibrosis, asthma, chronic bronchitis, chronic sinusitis, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Preliminary data (largely from open-label trials) are promising, but conclusive results are needed.
PMID: 17254499 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra ctPlus&list_uids=16826045&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum
You probably need antifungals too.
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