Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Fourth course of anti-biotics about to begin - alternative treatments ??

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
atkin11j@yahoo.com - 12 Mar 2007 20:12 GMT
I am going on month three with a sinus infection. Dr. has put me an
cephlex, levaquin and today he is going to try zpac. No real
congestion issues, minor pain. I have been irrigating. Any other
ideas?

I am also a diabetic which doesn't help th situation out.

Derek.-
Susan - 12 Mar 2007 20:30 GMT
> I am going on month three with a sinus infection. Dr. has put me an
> cephlex, levaquin and today he is going to try zpac. No real
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Derek.-

I'm type 2 DM, too.  One of the most important things you can do is cut
the carbs enough to keep your bg as far down into the non diabetic range
as possible.  Shoot for an A1c of 5% or as close to it as you can get.

High sugars suppress your immunity and high insulin levels promote
inflammation.

Susan
Steven L. - 12 Mar 2007 23:16 GMT
> I am going on month three with a sinus infection. Dr. has put me an
> cephlex, levaquin and today he is going to try zpac. No real
> congestion issues, minor pain. I have been irrigating. Any other
> ideas?

You need to see an ENT and get a CT scan.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

august - 13 Mar 2007 00:46 GMT
>I am going on month three with a sinus infection. Dr. has put me an
> cephlex, levaquin and today he is going to try zpac. No real
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Derek.-

If the three previous coursesof antibiotics did not cure your sinus
infection then it is highly doubtful that 5 days of zithromax will make any
difference. See an ENT, get a CT scan of your sinuses and work out a better
treatment plan against whatever is going on.  Keep on irrigating.  AW
truehawk - 13 Mar 2007 03:30 GMT
Au Contrare Mon Ami;

See below. Also Diabetics are especially prone to fungus.  Get that
checked out.
A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned.  People
who have CAT scans for other reasons often have what looks like sinus
disease
on the scan, but they don't have any symptoms. And the converse is
true.  MRIs cost about the same and may have better discrimination.

The strongest corrolation with sinus infections that last more than a
month is to multispecies biofilms.  (when the research has actually
been done)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=16826045&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum


>From personal experience those biofilms respond well ONLY to combined
antibotic/antifungal/antiactinomycete treatment. Something like
Zithromax,
Spornaox, Bactrium, and an Omega Three-Six  fatty acid supplement to
help the liver process all that.  And Zantac, cause the post nasal
drip from the bugs will attack your stomach.

If you have only had it for three  months, I think you MIGHT actually
be able to get rid of it with a combo drug treatment and good
probiotics like Culturell from Con Agra and Immunity from Dannon. The
longer the biofilm exists though the more difficult it is to
eradicate.
However new antibiofilm treatments are being developed by the
urologists and orthopedists, hopefully some of those treatments will
eventually perk over into the ENT practice,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=17254499&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum


Macrolide immunomodulation of chronic respiratory diseases.Healy DP.
College of Pharmacy, University of Cincinnati Medical Center and
Shriners Hospitals for Children, 3225 Eden Avenue, P.O. Box 670004,
Cincinnati, OH 45267-0004, USA. daniel.healy@uc.edu.

Important immunomodulatory properties of 14- and 15-membered
macrolides (((i.e. ZithroMax))) may benefit patients with respiratory
diseases associated with chronic inflammation. These properties
include decreased neutrophil chemotaxis and infiltration into the
respiratory epithelium, inhibition of transcription factors leading to
decreased proinflammatory cytokine production, downregulation of
adhesion molecule expression, inhibition of microbial virulence
factors including biofilm formation, reduced generation of oxygen-free
radicals, enhanced neutrophil apoptosis, and decreased mucus
hypersecretion with improved mucociliary clearance. Chronic, low-dose
macrolides have dramatically improved survival in patients with
diffuse panbronchiolitis (DPB). Given the overlap in pathogenesis
between DPB and other chronic respiratory diseases, macrolides are
being investigated for cystic fibrosis, asthma, chronic bronchitis,
chronic sinusitis, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
Preliminary data (largely from open-label trials) are promising, but
conclusive results are needed.

PMID: 17254499 [PubMed - in process]
Murray Grossan - 13 Mar 2007 04:10 GMT
On 3/12/07 7:30 PM, in article
1173752567.952752.268820@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com, "truehawk"

> A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned.  People
> who have CAT scans for other reasons often have what looks like sinus
> disease
It is best practice to do a cat scan to evaluate why the patient isn't
responding. You look for blockage of the natural draining passages, or pan
sinusitis or some sort of growth. The CAT scan is actually a short cut to
treatment because you can best evaluate most effective treatment. Sometimes
its a simple thing like a polyp blocking the drainage so the patient doesn't
have to simply take more antiiotics. Antibiotics do have negative effects
too.
MS - 13 Mar 2007 19:41 GMT
> A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned.

Then why do most ENTs consider a CT scan of the sinuses one of the most
important diagnostic tools for sinusitis? (If they thought an MRI would
offer better diagnosis, they would order that instead. But they don't order
MRIs, they order CTs.)

Do you know more than the otolaryngolical (?sp) profession about sinusitis
diagnosis? If you think so, how did you become so knowledgeable?
Steven L. - 14 Mar 2007 01:21 GMT
>> A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned.
>
> Then why do most ENTs consider a CT scan of the sinuses one of the most
> important diagnostic tools for sinusitis?

The CT scan is the most reliable tool they have for imaging the sinuses
(which are just empty spaces inside the skull).  But even a CT scan
isn't perfect.  It seems to have about a 5-10% rate of false negatives;
that is, 5-10% of the time, it fails to detect the sinus disease.  This
cannot be entirely due to misinterpretation by the ENT or radiologist;
usually several of them agree on what the CT scan shows.  It has more to
do with the fact that the resolution is no better than about 4 millimeters.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

truehawk - 14 Mar 2007 01:57 GMT
> Do you know more than the otolaryngolical (?sp) profession about sinusitis
> diagnosis? If you think so, how did you become so knowledgeable?

With appologies to Doc Grossian and other good ENTs who still have
live cognative faculties:

By having them "practice" on me and mine, and seeing what they have
done to my friends and
aquintances.

By having two positive hospital lab tests for fungus but being told
that it was "irrevelent".
(However when I was prescribed Sproanox, I got the first uninterupted
nights sleep in years.)

By realizing that they do not use the tests or the knowledge available
at the waste water plant to detect 99% of the microbial life there
and reading lines "but we can culture only about 650 species but we
can culture the medically important bacteria".
Thus what do negative cultures mean, that you sinuses are sterile even
though you are running green pus, or that what is growing there
does not grow under the standard culture conditions.
They consider absence of evidence with evidence of health, when they
intentionally do not look at most of the evidence.
Yeah, like if you could only see one car out of 100, how safe would it
be to cross the street?
If the you could use thermal goggles to see all the cars, how
reasonable would it be to refuse to use them?

By having samples from me that show a classical biofilm and having
"them" refuse to consider
that possibility, or order their own sample prepared without $100,000
accompanying grant money.
Getting the ENTs to do the research has been like pulling eye teeth.

And friend, I was right.  Go look up biofilm sinusitis in pubmed,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

Read Lusk's and Sanclement and Sanderson's papers,
(and realize that it is pretty easy doing a freeze fracture sample
to have the film to flake off during sample prep if you they are not
careful. So some positives are lost.)
and then take them to your ENT.
Odds on he will not even know what you are talking about.
No Halluaha Course, No "JOY at last we know what is going on."
No flurry of grant applications to do further research.
JUST THUD!!!!!!
"now can we get back to cutting your turbinates out"?
(Not just closed minded, but linked to a group mind sealed in a vault
somewhere.)

(((But mention Hultgren's work to a uroligest and he will immediately
know who and what you are talking about. But then uroligests don't
cut parts of kidneys out too often. )))

By looking into it and finding out how mutable diagnostic criteria
have been and how slipshod the studies.
I challange you to find published radiological studies with a general
population control group.
By trying to find general population strudies of deviated septum and
it's value as a predictor of sinus disease, and finding that if the
work
was ever done, it was not published, but to the extent it has been
reported, no corrolation was shown.

By witnessing the childlike way that ENTs treat the oxygen exchange/
flow control structures in one's nose as if they are
"obstructions".  The  polyp is usually the obstruction, and the polyp
is not an "overgrowth of the lining of the sinuses" it is a  biofilm.
Drop some live dead stain on one and LOOK at it.  A biofilm can be a
quarter inch thick, generous airways do not make you immune
to sinusitis. ENTs should not be allowed near a knife until they talk
to some fluid flow engineers.

Medicine is an observational science..
When a part of medicine starts severely limiting it's observations it
is not a science any more.

If you have a GP or ENT that does differs from the above and will
treat you to get rid of the infection
while trying to maintain the integrety of your nasal structures then
CHERISH THEM, cause I have reasont to believe they get a lot of flac.
Ghamph - 19 Mar 2007 19:46 GMT
> > Do you know more than the otolaryngolical (?sp) profession about sinusitis
> > diagnosis? If you think so, how did you become so knowledgeable?
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
> while trying to maintain the integrety of your nasal structures then
> CHERISH THEM, cause I have reasont to believe they get a lot of flac.

I totally agree with truehawk.  My "former" ENT wanted to cut first and
treat second.
I'm going to visit an immunologist to treat the infection before I even
think of cutting out anything.
I get the impression that some ENTs are lazy.  Or they can't pay for
improvements on their summer home , on office visit fees alone.
If after three visits they still haven't done a culture then something
stinks.
Jamffer
Murray Grossan - 14 Mar 2007 05:40 GMT
On 3/13/07 11:41 AM, in article 6fCJh.1091$qe5.877@trnddc05, "MS"
<ms@nospam.com> wrote:

>> A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Do you know more than the otolaryngolical (?sp) profession about sinusitis
> diagnosis? If you think so, how did you become so knowledgeable?

The MRI of the sinuses is of little value. It is much too sensitive to
fluid, mucus and a bit of mucus lights up like bad disease. There is a
terrible waste of time and money because the MRI is taken for something else
and the diagnosis of sinus disease is made based on a bit of mucus in the
cavity and so an unnecessary visit to the ENT to tell the patient "its
nothing". Whereas a CT will tell abnormal anatomy, show details of polyps,
show bone erosion, etc. An MRI might be useful in dirrentiating a fluid mass
from a fungal mass, but that's it.
The proper way to dx a sinus bacteria is to actually enter the sinus opening
and aspirate the purulent material.  A less accureate but effective way is
to use the pulsatile irrigator and catch the second 200 cc of irrigation in
a sterile container.
This is why no ENT take MRI of the sinuses and cringe when the patient
wastes a trip for explanation of the sinus diagnosis due to the MRI.
Susan - 14 Mar 2007 13:22 GMT
 A less accureate but effective way is
> to use the pulsatile irrigator and catch the second 200 cc of irrigation in
> a sterile container.

Is there a study demonstrating the effectiveness of this as a diagnostic
strategy, and comparing it to others?

Susan
truehawk - 14 Mar 2007 16:13 GMT
Sigh

All statements are true for a given value of "truth."

>From the Nov issue of American Family Physician

Acute Bacterial Rhinosinusitis in Adults: Part I. Evaluation

DEWEY C. SCHEID, M.D., M.P.H., and ROBERT. M. HAMM, PH.D.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20041101/1685.html

Clinical Findings and Imaging Studies for Diagnosis of Acute Bacterial
Rhinosinusitis

Scheid states

The sensitivity of CT is unknown because it has never been compared
with sinus aspiration. Only 62 percent of patients with sinus symptoms
have CT abnormalities.11 In addition, the CT scan lacks specificity.
Forty-two percent of patients undergoing head CT for other reasons
have sinus mucosal abnormalities,32,33 and up to 87 percent of
patients with common colds have abnormalities of at least one
maxillary sinus.34

There are many many problems here.

Scheid suggests "None has used the "gold standard"-culture showing at
least 100,000 organisms per mL from a direct sinus aspiration."

1.  culture or direct count?  Especially important when 99% can't be
cultured, but they still block your nose.

2. Sanderson's work, the 14/18 of the CS patients had biofilm,
"The intraoperative cultures of the planktonic bacteria present in the
sinuses did not correlate with the biofilms identified. "
So one can have sinus aspirate that has only 10,000 organisms/ml and
still have microcritter city sitting feasting nearby.

So I would think that sinus aspirate is not such a good gold standard
after all.

Which would leave us with 38% of people having sinus symptoms having a
negative CT scan, and the need of a good criteria to evaluate the rest
against.
since the present criteria arguably produces a high precentage of
false negatives.

Sometime back a guy at the University of California found a frequency
and contrast agent to image amyloid protein on MRIs.  Now since e-coli
produces a net of amyloid filiments to hold itself in place, it might
be possible that MRIs could be used to image biofilms directly.  Or
one could use CT and a light metal such as Zn.

Note when reading Scheid's paper
SENSITIVITY is the number of correct positive findings devided by (the
number of correct positive findings + the number of false negative
findings.)

SPECIFICITY is the number of correct negative findings devided by the
number of ( false positives + the number of correct negatives)
truehawk - 14 Mar 2007 16:39 GMT
And then there is this. Unilateral opacification is bad news.

[Unilateral opacification of the paranasal sinuses in CT or MRI: an
indication of an uncommon histological finding][Article in German]
Lehnerdt G, Weber J, Dost P.
Universitats-Hals-Nasen-Ohrenklinik Essen.

BACKGROUND: Clinical and radiological differentiation between subacute
or chronic sinusitis and differential pathologies such as malignoma,
inverted papilloma or mycosis can be very difficult. In some cases the
CT- or MRI-scan shows a unilateral opacification of the paranasal
sinuses. Which histological results can be found in patients with
persisting sinusitis related problems and a unilateral opacification
of the paranasal sinuses in the CT- or MRI-scan? There are only a few
publications on this topic. PATIENTS: In a prospective study between
June 1998 and November 1999 all patients who underwent surgery in our
Department for subacute or chronic sinusitis problems were included
into our study group if they had a unilateral opacification of the
paranasal sinuses. Thereafter, the same neuroradiologist verified the
unilateral radiological findings on CT or MRI, unaware of the clinical
and histological findings. Cases with a pre-existing histological
examination, previous operation or injury to the paranasal system were
excluded from this study. Data on clinical symptoms, radiological and
histological findings were analysed. RESULTS: 43 cases with unilateral
opacified paranasal sinuses were diagnosed by means of CT or MRI.
These were comprised of 24 males and 19 females with an average age of
43.6 years (range 6 to 88 years). The major findings of our study were
as follows: Firstly unilateral opacification of the paranasal sinuses
is often (19/43 cases or 43%) associated with diseases othe than
simple chronic sinusitis (8 inverted papilloma, 5 malignoma, 3 mycoses
and one brown tumor, one osteoidosteoma and one haemangioma). Secondly
the incidence of significant pathology other than simple chronic
sinusitis rises strikingly with increasing age of the patient. For
instance pathologies other than simple chronic sinusitis were found in
14% (1/7) of cases in the under 16 years group, 27% (6/22) of cases in
the 16-60 years group and in 86% (10/12) of cases in the over 60 years
group. Concerning clinical signs of our patients with unilateral sinus
opacity 7 of 11 patients (63%) with epistaxis and 3/5 with diplopia
had histological findings other than simple chronic sinusitis. In
contrast unilateral rhinorrhea, unilateral nasal congestion and
cephalgia were not of predictive value. CONCLUSION: Unilateral
opacification of paranasal sinuses in the CT or MRI is--especially at
a higher age--an indice for a neoplasm or mycotic sinusitis and
therefore an early histological diagnosis or operative treatment is
always suggested.

PMID: 11320876 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
truehawk - 13 Mar 2007 05:48 GMT
Au Contrare Mon Ami;

See below. Also Diabetics are especially prone to fungus.  Get that
checked out.
A CAT scan proves about zip as far as infection is concerned.  People
who have CAT scans for other reasons often have what looks like sinus
disease
on the scan, but they don't have any symptoms. And the converse is
true.  MRIs cost about the same and may have better discrimination.

The strongest corrolation with sinus infections that last more than a
month is to multispecies biofilms.  (when the research has actually
been done)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=16826045&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum


>From personal experience those biofilms respond well ONLY to combined
antibotic/antifungal/antiactinomycete treatment. Something like
Zithromax,
Spornaox, Bactrium, and an Omega Three-Six  fatty acid supplement to
help the liver process all that.  And Zantac, cause the post nasal
drip from the bugs will attack your stomach.

If you have only had it for three  months, I think you MIGHT actually
be able to get rid of it with a combo drug treatment and good
probiotics like Culturell from Con Agra and Immunity from Dannon. The
longer the biofilm exists though the more difficult it is to
eradicate.
However new antibiofilm treatments are being developed by the
urologists and orthopedists, hopefully some of those treatments will
eventually perk over into the ENT practice,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=17254499&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum


Macrolide immunomodulation of chronic respiratory diseases.Healy DP.
College of Pharmacy, University of Cincinnati Medical Center and
Shriners Hospitals for Children, 3225 Eden Avenue, P.O. Box 670004,
Cincinnati, OH 45267-0004, USA. daniel.healy@uc.edu.

Important immunomodulatory properties of 14- and 15-membered
macrolides (((i.e. ZithroMax))) may benefit patients with respiratory
diseases associated with chronic inflammation. These properties
include decreased neutrophil chemotaxis and infiltration into the
respiratory epithelium, inhibition of transcription factors leading to
decreased proinflammatory cytokine production, downregulation of
adhesion molecule expression, inhibition of microbial virulence
factors including biofilm formation, reduced generation of oxygen-free
radicals, enhanced neutrophil apoptosis, and decreased mucus
hypersecretion with improved mucociliary clearance. Chronic, low-dose
macrolides have dramatically improved survival in patients with
diffuse panbronchiolitis (DPB). Given the overlap in pathogenesis
between DPB and other chronic respiratory diseases, macrolides are
being investigated for cystic fibrosis, asthma, chronic bronchitis,
chronic sinusitis, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
Preliminary data (largely from open-label trials) are promising, but
conclusive results are needed.

PMID: 17254499 [PubMed - in process]
flashpoint46@yahoo.com - 13 Mar 2007 06:18 GMT
Derek,

I've been using a strong xilytol nasal spay. The stronger, the better.
It hasn't cured it, but helps alot. Dust and mold makes it worse.

Stan
Short Stories
http://stan231.freeservers.com

On Mar 12, 12:12 pm, atkin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I am going on month three with a sinus infection. Dr. has put me an
> cephlex, levaquin and today he is going to try zpac. No real
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Derek.-
truehawk - 13 Mar 2007 06:30 GMT
1: Curr Infect Dis Rep. 2007 Jan;9(1):7-13. Links
Macrolide immunomodulation of chronic respiratory diseases.Healy DP.
College of Pharmacy, University of Cincinnati Medical Center and
Shriners Hospitals for Children, 3225 Eden Avenue, P.O. Box 670004,
Cincinnati, OH 45267-0004, USA. daniel.healy@uc.edu.

Important immunomodulatory properties of 14- and 15-membered
macrolides ((ie ZithroMax))may benefit patients with respiratory
diseases associated with chronic inflammation. These properties
include decreased neutrophil chemotaxis and infiltration into the
respiratory epithelium, inhibition of transcription factors leading to
decreased proinflammatory cytokine production, downregulation of
adhesion molecule expression, inhibition of microbial virulence
factors including biofilm formation, reduced generation of oxygen-free
radicals, enhanced neutrophil apoptosis, and decreased mucus
hypersecretion with improved mucociliary clearance. Chronic, low-dose
macrolides have dramatically improved survival in patients with
diffuse panbronchiolitis (DPB). Given the overlap in pathogenesis
between DPB and other chronic respiratory diseases, macrolides are
being investigated for cystic fibrosis, asthma, chronic bronchitis,
chronic sinusitis, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
Preliminary data (largely from open-label trials) are promising, but
conclusive results are needed.

PMID: 17254499 [PubMed - in process]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=16826045&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum


You probably need antifungals too.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.